SPEAKER_01 0:00

In this week's interview episode, we get to sit down with two type 9 content creators, entrepreneurs to hear what life is like through the lens at that type 9 energy. Bonnie Mace runs a Enneagram group and individual coaching company called Empathetic Enneagram. She also recently started a really fun podcast specifically for Enneagram type 9s called Entrepreneines. And she identifies most as a type 9 with a wing eight. On the other side of the table, we have Kelsey Wilhoy, who identifies as a type 9 wing one. So as you listen in, you'll get to hear some of those differences. Kelsey runs the thriving Enneagram Type 9 Enneagram community called Healthy Nine Club. All kinds of fun memes, insight, conversation happening over there about that type 9 energy. So you'll have to check that out. As a reminder, the type 9 is striving to be at peace. They are looking for harmony. They're sometimes known as the peacemaker, the mediator. They want to avoid conflict and looking to go with the flow so that there are any sort of opinion that they might have or thought that may be kind of against the grain or potentially has a potential to cause conflict, they push to the side so that they can just go along with the group. Anything from what to what where to go out to eat to what project to start on and kind of all those things in between. And you'll hear more about what that is like as we get into this interview. And so sometimes the challenge with the type 9 entrepreneur, the type 9 leader at work is that they eventually feel invisible and unsure of what they really want because they are so out of touch with their own thoughts and opinions because they have for so long gone with the flow and just merged with what the rest of the group wanted to do. So Kelsey and Bonnie kind of talk about rocking the boat at times and when that is needed and how to do that in a way that serves you. But getting visible and starting to speak up is something that we'll have to figure out at some point if we want to be a content creator that impacts others, if we want to be a business owner that gets to make a difference in clients' lives, because if people don't know we exist, it's going to be hard for them to work with us. So whether you identify with that type 9 energy, or you have maybe a client that has some of this energy, maybe you have a team member, maybe you have a family member. I hope that by the end of listening to this, you'll have gained some additional insight, empathy, compassion, understanding for somebody else that might be completely different, that might be seeing the world very differently than you are, but still have some insight into how they're experiencing and maybe different ways to approach situations, whether you're looking to inspire them, whether you're looking to work through a conflict, whether you're um wanting just to have a meaningful conversation that might move the needle forward, whatever it is, this will give you insight on how to do that so that you're resonating with them and not only with how you might come on, be taking on that conversation. And so, and then also, of course, if you do identify as a type 9, that you're gonna feel really seen, feel really heard, maybe validated. You know, you're not the only one that does that quote unquote crazy thing. So without further ado, let's get into this interview with Bonnie and Kelsey. Welcome to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your gifts, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. Each week you'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others, like your future clients, and help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gifts and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. All right, we are here inside another episode on the Enneagram MBA podcast, and we have another panel today. And these are some of my favorite episodes because we get to talk about the Enneagram, but really hear from real life stories, and we get kind of different perspectives all at once, which is always really fun to hear and learn from. So today we have Bonnie Mace um joining us as uh an Enneagram Type 9. And then we also have Kelsey, and I should have confirmed how to say your last name, Kelsey. Will Hoyt. Will Will Hoyt. Okay. I was gonna say hot, but I'm like, that's not it. But Will Hoyt. Don't worry. Okay. Well, Kelsey, would you start off and introduce yourself? Let um our listeners know a little bit about who you are and what you're working on right now.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, so hey everybody, my name is Kelsey. Um, I run a large community of Enneagram Nines on Instagram. We're called Healthy Nine Club, if you want to find us. Um, and really my goal there is to give nines a safe space to kind of figure out who they are. That's our ultimate struggle, right? Is that we don't feel like we know how to do that. So it's a safe space for nines to just explore and learn things about themselves and we like to laugh too. Um currently the biggest project I'm working on is a course that's specifically for nines. And again, that's a safe space with specific things we're gonna work through to just help us tune back into ourselves and learn how to kind of wake up to our dreams and desires and interests and preferences and all those fun things that we struggle with. Oh that's me, that's me in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

I love it. I'm so excited to see that unfold. And I'm not a nine, obviously, but always enjoy your content. And I agree there are some good laughs happening over there. Um, Bonnie, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're working on right now.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yeah, um, like you said, I'm Bonnie Mace and I'm a nine wing eight, and I'm working on launching a new business. I've been doing it about six months now. Um, and my business name is called Empathetic Enneagram, where I do Enneagram coaching. Um, and then I'm also working on some spiritual formation things. So all of that in between full-time parenting, which is fun. Um, and right now I'm working on a concept called growth groups for any Enneagram type. Um, and the goal is to have 10 to 30 people coming together to work specifically towards grace-based growth that leads to a mindset of compassionate confidence. So um I have this idea that we all live from three sort of mindsets and we get to choose what those are. One of them might be an inflated ego where we can't see any of our weaknesses or don't wanna look at them, just want to build up and hype up who we are. Um, another one's self-deprecating shame, where we're just stuck in everything that's wrong and can't move forward and are really down on ourselves. And I think the sweet spot is compassionate confidence where we can embrace both our strengths and our weaknesses and live into those without apology. And so that's kind of what our growth groups are going to be focused on is how to get there from a place of compassion and grace and love for ourselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Oh my gosh, I love that. Thanks. Ooh. I know so many fun things. Um, so I also want to give a shout out. I mentioned we had one more type 9 that was joining us. She had an emergency, but I still wanted to shout her out, Chrissy. She runs Best Life Boutique. Um, and you can find her on Instagram. And she has a clothing store. And it's always interesting just to hear kind of different types of businesses. So we'll have to connect with her and follow along with her over on Instagram to see what she's up to. But shout out to Chrissy. Um let me start with just um, I know Bonnie, you had mentioned you identify as an Enneagram nine with a wing eight. Kelsey, what about you? What wing do you identify with?

SPEAKER_02 8:41

I was gonna jump in and say we have our basis covered because I have a strong one-wing working on my eight-wing.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Okay, okay. So I'd love to hear how did you like let's just take this back to the beginning. How did you know that you were a type nine? And was there was there some confusion or difficulty in the beginning? Like were you were you stuck between a couple of types? And then how did you know, oh my gosh, I'm such a type nine?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Bonnie, you want to go first?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Oh, sure. My mine's pretty straightforward. So testing actually worked for me. Um, and that's not always the case. Actually, I think that's really rarely the case that testing works for for people, and especially for a nine. Um, but for me, it ended up working. And um, I did a group um test with the job I was at at the time, and somebody came in and presented on the Enneagram, and there was just all of a sudden this permission to like have self-awareness. And so I, which I'd never in the culture I grew up in, like being being at all self-focused is interpreted as selfish. And so, and being the nine that I am, self-development is scary, whole thing. So having the ability to like look into my personality without judgment really opened up a whole world and like everything about nine resonated right away. And then everything about being a nine-wing eight explained why um, why all of a sudden I would be scary and then scared of myself, and then and then back to the peaceful person, because that's I like to call a nine-wing eight one of the most conflicted types on the Enneagram because of those dueling um, you know, behaviors that I that you kind of battle with internally. So, so that's for me, like actually testing worked, but then confirming through um reading up and and digging into it more for myself.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

That's awesome. Um, when you were talking about the nine wing eight being conflicted, uh, a lot of people in my community call it like, it's like I'm trying, like I'm Bruce Banner and the Hulk in one person. And it is so like you don't know what you're gonna get on a daily basis. Well, I don't feel like a while.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

It feels like that because all of a sudden you're like, what just happened to me? Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. But I really do feel that way, but I shouldn't have said that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Yeah, I can relate to that as even as a one-wing. I mean, my eight-wing will I never know when she's gonna pop out. Like she's there. She's just you don't know what's gonna set her off. So that's really interesting. Um, so for me, I read The Road Back to You. This was about two years ago, I want to say, beginning of the pandemic. And um, you know, because each chapter was a number. So like I got, you know, I read one through eight and I was like, I resonate with that. Okay. Yeah, I I can see that in myself. Yeah, I'm logical, like a five. Every number I was kind of I could see that. And then I got to nine and I was like jumping up and down, like what? Like I we were we went on a road trip and I was like, babe, I like read the chapter to my husband and I was like, I didn't know that like other people felt this way. It like it just shook me to my core, everything about nine that I read. And it was, you know, and then of course it's confirmed when it's like nines can often see themselves in other numbers too. I was like, yeah. So um yeah, just from there, it's been deeper research. And yeah, I've taken a few different quizzes and like nine is always up there, but I also get a lot of one, I get a lot of four, I get a lot of two. So um for me, it's really just that core motivation and core fear, like, ooh, that really just like cut me to my core when I read that. I was like, I didn't even realize, but there it is in words.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

You know, it's wild. It feels so good to be seen. Yeah. Um, I have a question since both of you got both of you ladies are incredibly well versed with the Enneagram. One of the I would love to hear your thoughts on this. So one of the most um common mistypings or struggles is the nine and the six, and then the nine and the two. This is my personal experience that I've run into. Um can if we could just talk about that for a second. The nine and the six, why do you think that sometimes that gets confused? I know that they're arrows, but in your like just in your experience, what do you see being the most confusing thing there?

SPEAKER_02 13:24

I'm happy to speak on this one because my cousin, who's one of my best friends in the world, she is currently trying to type herself. And um she is she literally can't, she's like, I don't know if I'm a nine or a six, or if I'm a nine that's just always stressed, or if I'm a six who's really healthy. So like she's literally in the middle of this struggle right now. And I think it is just because the world we live in, like especially the world I think today, really the tendency is to be in stress. Like that's almost just culturally normal nowadays, at least in America, it seems. And so if someone's like chronically under stress all the time and they're really truly not like living out their truest and most authentic selves, they might resonate more with the six stuff, you know. Um, but I keep reminding her, you know, really just keep digging into those core motivators and core fears and like what your driving factor is and decisions and kind of the way that you relate to other people. But I yeah, that can be really hard.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

I think the three types that you mentioned too are also all like very self-forgetting types, you know, in their own way. And so it can be really hard if you get caught in that mistyping trio because because all three of those types don't necessarily want to honor what we need or trust what we think, or think that what we have to say even really like matters unless it benefits somebody else. Um, you know, so a six wants to be shored up in their in their community and make sure that they're safe within their community, but they're not sure that they're the person that can do it. A nine, we just forget, we just, you know, we we don't have to say it doesn't matter, like we just want you to be happy and not rock the boat. Um, and then two, too, like I exist to serve, I exist exist to serve. So I do think those are easy mistypings because you have to look in the mirror for a lack of a better analogy and say, who am I? Like, am I worth the time to get to know? And those three types struggle with that immensely. So it can just take us more time to get there. And you know, I'm you guys probably know there are some like tips and tricks to help you negotiate, but I agree with Kelsey, like getting to really reel with your core fears and your core motivations will help you get there. But yeah, it's it's a tricky, tricky area for sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah, I think too, like to piggyback on that, twos, sixes, and nines can act really similarly. I mean, like one of my besties is a six, and like we're pretty similar in a lot of ways in the way we act. A lot of twos will come to my page and be like, I had no idea how similar nines and twos were. It's just that we do the same things for different reasons. So it is, it's kind of like if you're looking at the outside, you know, you might they might all look the same. But like you said, yeah, it's all about just digging deeper and that introspection is really hard, I think, for those three types.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

What a great point about the behaviors and and just being similar, but again, just reflecting, taking the time and the energy to do that. And that's not always easy to look in the energy.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

That's what it is for nines. We're like, oh, I gotta like, I'm already tired.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Well, let's talk about that for just a second, because that's on my question bank. Is the um so each type has the, and I know you I know that the two of you know this, but each type has that that passion or that vice, the deadly sin for the nine, it's sloth or sometimes sleepwalking. And so the nines can get this reputation for being lazy and just low energy, but that's not the case at all. Um, sometimes maybe, but but definitely not always. So, what is your experience with that stereotype?

SPEAKER_02 17:37

That's something a lot of people in my community struggle with. They they either fit the stereotype and they kind of hate it, or they don't fit the stereotype, they don't relate to it, and so they feel misunderstood. Um, for me, when I dug into what sloth really means, because I never resonated with that. I'm a busybody. Like I'm like give me things to do, I'm doing things all day. I don't like being idle. That's hard for me. Um, but for me, my sloth is I'm really busy doing things that aren't really what I want to be doing. It's like it's another way to self-forget by just keeping myself busy. And then I don't have to do the hard work of like figuring out what I want to do and taking the time and energy to do that if it inconveniences someone. Or so that's my experience with sloth. It's a it doesn't have to literally look like you know, like a sloth laying on a tree all day. It might look different for you, but if it's a if it's a vice for you to forget yourself and distract from ever looking inward, that's still sloth.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, so it's funny, Kelsey, how opposite we're both the same core type, but I do resonate with like the sleepies. Like I have joked before that um I appreciate as a hobby a good stare at the wall, you know. Um, that's just I'm I'm comfortable in that and stillness and silence to the point that I really have to watch for me, um, like the narcotizing line when it comes to okay, when you know, when is this restful versus when is this narcotization, which is um like a defense mechanism of a nine when we get trapped in our in our weakness or advice. And so yeah, for me, sloth is one that I it the word lazy and being lazy is really triggering for me. And I found that true for a lot of nines of like when I think of myself as lazy, it like freaks me out, and then I want to get stuff done, and then I get overwhelmed and I'm like, I'm gonna go have a stare at the wall. Yeah. Um, you know, and just like take a minute to to relax. And and realizing for me, similarly to what Kelsey was saying, is that when that weakness comes to, oh, it's not that I'm a lazy person who doesn't get anything done and can't be successful. That's not what this means. It's that I don't give myself the same energy that I give everybody else. That was that was kind of like, oh dang, you know, um, the classic therapy like, would you say this to a friend or would you do this for a friend? Like, no, I would never do that for a friend. Then why are you doing it to yourself? Um, that was the big, I mean, you know, for nine, that was the big wake up for me of like, oh, like I can, I'm worthy of my own energy and my own knowing. Um, and again, that's some of that taking away that self-deprecating shame idea for me of like being lazy freaked me out, got me in a shame spiral, gets me down. I'm gonna go have a stare at the wall that turns into narcotizing and way too much social media scrolling, right? So pulling yourself out of that and saying, wait, I'm worthy of my own energy. I'm worthy to find out why this is feeling triggering right now and what I want to do to take care of it. Uh and taking the minute to really face that and know that taking that time for me is not going to realize my worst fear, which is causing drama with all my all my relationships, you know. Um, that's really freeing. So I really do relate, you know, with the sloth, but have learned to take it and almost embrace the fact that, okay, for me, it's harder to know me. Um, you know, for an eight, like they know exactly what they want all the time. For me, it's just harder. So I'm gonna put a little bit more work into it and I'm gonna honor that. And I'm just gonna embrace that. And so now I have like little like sloths in my house and like jammies with sloths on them because I because I want to like love that tender side of me better, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that I love that you're just embracing that because it kind of when you were talking, I was thinking it's almost a self fulfilling prophecy for a lot of nines. And I say this all the time in my DMs. It's like, I don't want to be seen as lazy. So I push myself too hard and then I burn out, and then I'm lazy. And it's like, uh, how do you navigate that? And sometimes it is just that communication to the people you. Love that as much as I want to give and give and give and give and give and give my body and my brain for whatever reason were not designed that way. And so just communicating that to your loved ones, like I might just need, you know, 30 minutes to to zone. And I I do that too. I mean, I have to tell my kids all the time, like, mom just needs, I need 20. I need 20. Don't talk to me. I don't have the energy.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Like, yeah, yeah. And that's, I mean, that is so great that you have noticed that though, and then can advocate for yourself. Cause I think, you know, that that I think that's the first step for all types is like, what do you really need? And then you can go to that and and and get it. But it's hard to get it if you don't know what it is. So on this topic of energy and um zoning out, and even we were talking a little bit about getting stressed earlier. These are very common challenges that come with being a content creator, so having a podcast, sharing your voice, creating courses and groups. Um, and I know that there are certain types. Um, I get a lot of threes and eights, some maybe sometimes sevens too, that tend to, you know, raise their hand first and you know, tend to be the stereotypical entrepreneur. All types, obviously, can be successful. What do you how have you seen your nine gifts being a contributor to where you're at right now? And then we'll talk about the shadow side in just a second. Um, but what sort of, you know, what are the the things that you love about your nine energy that you see? Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful for that. It's it's led me to be where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

That's a tough question.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

I can jump in while you process a little bit. I know we nines need a little more time from time at time. I know.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

I thought about should I sit questions before? Because I've done that with some other nines, but no, this is good practice for us. It's all good.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

For me, it's been something I've been mulling over a little bit because I've had like a recent career transition. And so I've been trying to do the work of like sitting in it and being like, you know, what is this? Is is me plowing through, or was it giving up, or what's going on? Um, and so for me, my nine strengths I feel really play out be in being able to see the perspectives, right? Like um, nine sits at the top of the Enneagram symbol. And this is something that like I think nines we can take pride in and embrace in in compassion and confidence, and say, like, we can see things from other perspectives very easily. Seeing things from my perspective is harder, but everybody else I can see. And so that makes me a really good and makes nines a really good companion and also a really good bridge builder when there's tension. And so this can be a good bridge builder for someone like themselves, right? Like you're at tension with yourself, and you can't really understand why am I doing this when I want to be doing this. Well, I can see the struggle that you're having, and I see you and I hear you and I recognize you, and that's hard, and you're not alone. And I want you to know that. So that's a really strong thing because the nine's not just like blow and smoke when they say that. Like we really mean it and we really can empathize and understand what you're going through. So for me, that's that's a huge thing. I think that my nineness has brought, and then in previous careers when there's been like a long, like a big team involved, like being able to work up the nerve to speak up and say, you're saying this thing over here, and you're saying this thing over here, and you guys are talking past each other. And if you guys could just see like this and just calm down to each other's levels, then you would see and and be able to resolve this conflict. And that is so hard. That is so hard as a nine to do. But when you do, everybody's guard comes down because you're not doing it in like um an aggressive way. And then you really can build the unity that you actually crave. So you think, you know, you think I'm gonna cause more drama, but really like you're doing this bridge building and this peace making that that really is significant and is significant for a lot of people. So for me, that's how I've seen it show up.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

And Bonnie, you work with all types, right? Not just nines in your work. So, like for you to be a nine, like you're in such a great position to work with all different types because like you can really see, you know, thank you different positions. Um so for me, I work with only nines at this point. So, you know, it's interesting when I I start I started my Instagram just back in September. So I don't, I guess seven months ago or something like that. And I posed it as a community, which I know, you know, a lot of Instagram pages aren't that way where it's just kind of like here's a business, or but for some reason, because maybe of my nimeess, I really wanted it to feel like this is a community where like you guys can come together because I love bringing people together and I love creating a safe space. Um, so for me, like that's the biggest way I've seen it play out, is just in the way that I kind of formatted my business, in that, you know, this isn't just I don't see it as like I'm the expert and I'm telling you what to do. I see it as like, let's all collectively like come together and share our struggles and share our wins and like we can learn from each other because you know, I'm right there in the trenches with you, learning all this stuff. So that's for me, that's the biggest way was just in in the way that I I guess I suppose in the um in the way I formed the community feel.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

I absolutely feel that. Yeah, yeah. And so here's kind of a follow-up question to that to to Kelsey, but then Bonnie, if you have anything to add to it, please do. So one of the things that I have noticed, um, because I think I found you in the beginning, towards the beginning of your your start. And I don't know when it was.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

You've been around, I think, for a while. Like I remember seeing your name even you know a few months ago. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, and you were sharing, um, and you still do this. Other people, like you will put a post up and ask for feedback, and then other people will share their experience, and then you're kind of the curator of that. And so when we talk about um like content creation, I always use that as kind of the example for the nine energy. Like, if you don't know what to say, use some of this. But I've crowdsource it. Yes, crowdsourcing. Thank you. But I've also noticed that you have been um over the months sharing more of your face and your opinions and your voice. So, what advice would you have to another nine who maybe feels like you both have said and is a common struggle of anybody, but really nine specifically tend to have this as a core struggle where you know you feel invisible. Oh, my opinion doesn't matter, nobody cares. What would you offer to somebody who might be thinking that right now and is afraid to start getting more visible?

SPEAKER_02 29:25

I mean, for me, it was really a matter of, I mean, one of you already mentioned this earlier. The idea that it isn't about me, that to speak up is not self-serving if it's to serve someone else. So I have no problem sharing things that have helped me or things I'm struggling with, as long as I know what the end goal is, and as long as that end goal is that you're gonna come in here and you're gonna feel seen, you're gonna feel understood, or you're gonna learn something that might serve you or help you. So for me, it was like, you know, I've I've been there for years and years where I just didn't feel like I had anything to share, or I didn't feel comfortable sharing that. And that's because I was stuck on me and my own discomfort. And I was projecting onto other people that, well, if I feel uncomfortable, clearly it's gonna make other people uncomfortable if I speak up, right? And that isn't true. Like that's that's my issue and that's my core, that's one of my fears. But just the idea that I can get outside of myself that I don't, my business isn't about me. It's not about me. So it gives me the courage to speak up and to share things, even though they're sometimes personal. Um, because at the end of the day, it is not about me. It's about using, you know, my skills and my gifts to serve others.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Bonnie, what about you? Because starting a podcast is, you know, one of the most, you know, on your spotlight, on your voice type of activities that you could do. So what would you offer? And you know, anything that has helped you kind of get over that hurdle to be able to start sharing your own voice over the yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

So um trial by fire is helpful, but that's not something that everyone is offered. So for me, some of my public speaking journey kind of happened because my boss was like, I need you to go on stage and say that. And I almost like threw up and died and all of the things, but kind of got used to like, I'm gonna go do this because in mass, because somebody wants me to do it. And so by that I learned that I actually have something to offer the world. So hearing, like knowing that not every nine has the chance for someone to like literally push them and say, speak, you need to be heard. Um, my thing is to say your voice really does matter because nines want wholeness, like nines want unity. And and we have this inherent draw towards, I don't do this without you, and you don't do this without me, but we forget that second part, the you don't do this without me. And so my encouragement to nines specifically showing up um and using your voices to say, you are you're taking up space in the world brings that unity and wholeness that you crave. Like your gift of showing up and recognizing yourself then brings a lot of people into the fold. Um so similar to like what Kelsey was saying, but I guess I'm seeing it on a more like the like on a more uh the ideological level. I didn't say that word correctly. I say words incorrectly all the time.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

We've not everyone knows what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, like you feel that it and you feel the need to serve people, but your self-editing actually is a disservice to people. So yeah, um, that's my biggest, my biggest encouragement to showing up. So us, you know, me and my friend John, who have the podcast we've launched, called we're calling it entrepreneines. And it's just the two of us laughing about the goofy like struggles of trying to start a business on your own as a nine. Um, and we do it just to keep ourselves remembering that our voice can make a difference, even if two people listen to our podcast, which is kind of like what it is right now, um, that's okay. And that's the people we're here to serve. And that's that's the piece of the puzzle we get to bring to this like wild thing called Planet Earth in life in 2022.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

So it is wild, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I think that that's such I I love that too. I think that's such a great point that you just made about the podcast, too, is that um sometimes we think, well, gosh, unless I'm going to have, you know, 10,000 followers or or 10,000 people on my email list or listeners or whatever it is, like it's just not, it's not worth doing. But you never know what might happen. And like you're saying, like you are having a blast right now. You're you're sharing your voice, and who knows who else is going to come along that would never be able to come along had Kelsey not started the Instagram community, you not be starting the podcast. Um, you you had mentioned that the podcast is uh, you know, help just kind of laughing and at the struggles of starting a business. What other challenges have you both faced, or maybe you're in the middle of one, that you would be willing to share because I'm sure that everyone else could probably relate to it?

SPEAKER_02 34:52

For me, it's just I work at a different pace than I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs. Granted, I'm I'm more of a busybody, but like I said, I struggle to focus on the right things. So I've been making this course for like it's been months. It's like truly a snail's pace. And I and there are some days where I'll put 15 minutes into it and that's all I can spare, um, you know, energy-wise and just life-wise, because I've also got like three small kids. So um yeah, it's it's just really like trying not to compare with other entrepreneurs who just seem to have boundless energy and boundless determination to spend like seven hours a day um, you know, creating a product or a service. And that just isn't sustainable for me. And I'm trying to be very mindful about um budgeting my energy in a way that I can keep showing up long term and not burn out. So for me, that's been that's currently my biggest struggle is like, whoo, I thought this course would be done two months ago.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

I want to hear them. Yeah, well, that's real. Um, I want to hear from Bonnie, but have one more follow-up question for you, Kelsey, with that wing one with like perfectionism and the details. Do you see that playing into this too? Big time.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Yeah, I really struggle with um, you know, I'm working on changing my mindset around that because growing up, it was like, I'm not gonna do something if it's not going to be perfect. I am not going to do something if I cannot give it, you know, every ounce of me. Um, and I just I can't, you know, that's not realistic anymore because I have to also be giving myself to my family and other areas of life. And so I'm really getting okay with the idea that I just need to, you know, put what's on my heart out there. And it doesn't have to be perfect right at the beginning, but it can always be, you know, tweaked and improved with feedback and things like that. So um yeah, that one wing can be brutal sometimes. But she helps me plan, she helps me organize. So she has her strengths too.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Well, and I will say I am always so impressed with how consistent you are. I just feel like there is always something new. What what's your like what would you say? I know that's not a secret, but what is what's going on behind the scenes that is helping you be consistent?

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, honestly, it's just systems. I cannot rely on my motivation. I cannot rely on my mood. I cannot even rely on that I'll have the same amount of time every day. Because you know, sometimes you have sick kids and sometimes right, you're at worlds of fun, okay. Um but so for me, it's it's just the systems. I decided when I created my Instagram that I had to set it up in a way that again, like I said, I could show up long term. And so for me, that was posting and I I did this for a few months and I've scaled back, but twice a day, six days a week. And then I have alarms on my phone that go off every couple hours all day long. And I'll either you know I'll post a story. Um, and that's all I do. So like I've got the system working now to where I'm only on Instagram for like 30 minutes to an hour a day. And from the out, like it took months to get there, but it it really you fall to the level of your systems. So I can't rely on me. I gotta rely on a schedule and I have to rely on a daily task list and alarms on my phone. Otherwise, yeah, it probably it wouldn't, I wouldn't be consistent, guaranteed.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

That's so good. Bonnie, what about you? Yeah, um, I just want to jump onto the last thing that you said, though, Kelsey, and say that totally is you because the three is our growth path, you know? And so it's hard and takes a lot of energy, but setting up that system, that that is you. So that's some of that like man, lean into that compassion confidence because yeah, that's you go into your growth path and like tapping in hard so that when you go back to autopilot, which every human needs to, because none of us are like Wonder Woman or Superman or whatever the case is. So huge props for that. I think that's such a good example, particularly for nines, to say, you know, you can be successful for yourself and you have the capacity in it in you to make that happen. So anyway, I have a hard time when people downplay how awesome they are. Um for me, yeah. So circling back to current struggle in business, um, my former career was a communications director. And so I was constantly crafting um marketing language and um social media content and website content and blogs and you know, everything for the organization I worked for. And it was so easy because I'm a nine, and you give me a person who speaks once a week and is churning out content, and I can merge right into their voice and produce oodles of content, you know. Um, and so that's what I was doing, and I was really like living into that. And so I assumed that making the jump to my own business, I'd be able to keep the same pace. Um, and wow, as a nine, now having to clarify my own message and um clarifying my own what I bring for people has been so much more of a challenge than I would like to admit to. Um, I've been working really hard to clarify that mindset concept I brought to you at the beginning of this podcast. Because if you, you know, and this is like an insider secret, if you go back to my page, which I started maybe a month after Kelsey, about October 2021. So if you go back to the beginning of my feed and read, like you can see me. I'm here and I'm there and I'm over here and I'm over there, and I'm trying to figure out like what it is that I'm bringing to you and struggling. And it's taken, um it's taken a business coach for me to help clarify so that I could verbalize some of that stuff and move forward in her affirmation, which is another struggle as a solopreneur, going from a team where I had supervisors who I could go and say, Is this okay? Do you like this? Is this sounding good? Did that look good? And they like, yeah, this is great. This is great. I thrived on that affirmation. So now going to this, and you know, you post something on Instagram and you think this is the best post ever. And it has like one like and it's your mom. And wait, where did the affirmation go? Like, I thought this was great. I thought this is who I am. So really finding the confidence in my voice and being able to move to okay, this is my message, this is who I serve, um, this is how I'm coming at this thing, and staying in it when the one when the post gets the one like that you're so proud of. Um probably my biggest struggle in starting a business so far.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

So I had to really reframe at the beginning because it's the same with me. If you scroll all the way down, I just like threw a bunch of content on there, like you know, day one, because I didn't want my feed to look like bare. And it's just like all across the board, all over the place. And then I was just like, I'm gonna just see what works and I'm gonna do more of what works and less of what doesn't. And for me, I mean, exactly like you were just saying, I had to really reframe what is success in my mind. Success is not how other people respond because I can't control that. Right. Success is that I show up consistently, period. That's the end of the story. That's success for me. And I just I decided that early on. And you know, obviously, you still care like how a post does, but you kind of can at least say, you know what, I did my piece, that's all I can control. It's out of my hands.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Yeah, it's good. I do think it's so much about the sum of all the parts and not just like, yeah, like you're saying, that one make or break post, like it's okay, do it again tomorrow. Yeah. Um, and but well, Bonnie was saying it, and you just said it too, Kelsey, is and I think that's such a just a across the board lesson about throwing things up and experimenting because it really is such a such an overlap of what do you enjoy talking about and then what do people want to hear about?

SPEAKER_02 43:52

And you don't know right away, even though you think you should, you don't. Yeah, and it's again that perfectionism of like. The willingness to like get it wrong a few or like a few hundred times while you're trying to just figure that out. And that can be, I mean, that was really scary for me. Like I just wanted to like get it, like know exactly what I was doing, and then do that consistently. And it it did take like, you know, a couple of months to really feel in a groove and really understand what it is that I'm providing for people and you know on what basis. And you know, it's hard. It really is hard.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

It is, yeah. I could have so many more questions. I'm looking at my question bank, but we have, I know you guys are moms, we have businesses, we got all kinds of things. So I have three more questions for you both before we wrap up. Um, the the first one, this is going to be a series. So this type nine will be the first of this working women as a type, in this case, type nine. And usually I ask, what is a book that you would recommend to fellow women in business? But I'm gonna ask you guys, if you have a book that's you want to share, please do. Um, but I'm gonna ask you, what is a tool or resource that you use to help you, maybe in your case, Kelsey, be consistent or Bonnie? I know you talked about hiring a coach. Um, anything really tangible that somebody could take away and search or start using or implement? Anything come to mind for you? I know I'm putting you on the spot.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

I know I'm thinking books. Nothing's coming to mind. You go first, Bonnie.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Yeah. So systems-wise, I like Kelsey, I resonate with the idea of using a system. So particularly for type nine, and then of course there are other types out there that are gonna love this, like threes and sixes and ones, like you guys all love systems, um, is leaning into some like less expensive and or free things as you're starting out. So for me, a huge one that I use all the time is Airtable. Um, and it's a fantastic content management tool um and to-do list. It takes a little learning. So you need to figure out for yourself what system works for you. Um, and but then you can tailor it to work for you. So right now I use Airtable for creating Instagram content and for our podcast, entrepreneines. And all of our potential guests are on there, and all of our episode notes go on there, and the files can be attached. Um, the way I'm using it is free. They've recently changed their pricing structure. So I'm unsure what has changed because that's happened like within the last month, and I haven't looked closely into it. Um, but you can do so much stuff on there for free and get yourself really organized and have a central database. So, as far as like tools like that, um, I love, I absolutely love Airtable. Um, and then I I have my favorite book is not necessarily a business book right now, but it's very nine of me because it helps with routines and boundaries. And it's called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Homer. And is from a Christian perspective. Um, so if that's not your thing, you know, here's your that's your um disclaimer. Um, but it's really about not rushing through life, um, which was important for me because in my last career, I really got to the brink of burnout. Um, so as I'm establishing my new business, it's been really important for me to honor my rhythms and my values. Um, and that book was revolutionary. It's so good, so encouraging and convicting. Um, so I recommend that to like every anyone who will listen to me talk.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Well, I can tell you that sounds great. It does sound like a good one. I think something we can all use. And as a seven who needs more systems and organization, try to always channel that one arrow. Um, that ear table sounds really interesting. So I'm gonna have never heard of that.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah. Is that something that can be shared with other users? Like, for example, the person you do your podcast with, can they see all that?

SPEAKER_00 48:09

So you can users, and there's like a few things that they like keep, you know, under a paywall. Like you can't, it's really set up similar to Excel. Um, but like Excel on steroids, um, and you can put it in different views. So it kind of combines like um a can band like Trello, Excel, and um like Monday type work workflow all into one, in my opinion. I I won't nerd out on your podcast about how much you can do with that, but I'm happy to walk you guys through it if you want. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Yeah, I see I see a future class coming up.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah, how do you beer table? Yeah, I'm there because I feel very scattered at the moment. Like I have, you know, I have my systems, but it's like it's in my notes folder, and then I have my to-do list over here, and then my calendar over here. And every morning it's like I'm trying to like condense all the things onto one list. Yeah, yeah. Um, so for me, okay, so really the question was what was the really the question?

SPEAKER_01 49:12

The what what tool or resource, like getting really tangible um that helps you stay consistent or helps you show up, um, makes running a business easier for you.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Yeah, so for me, I mean, and this is going to be Instagram specific. So hopefully that's helpful. But this could be true on any platform. Um, when I created my Instagram, I followed I I made sure to only really follow two types of people. Number one was business and Instagram experts. And then number two was people in my niche. So that way when I get on Instagram, that's all I'm seeing in my feed. I'm either like it's like micro learning. I'm either getting an Instagram tip in my feed, like if I get down and scroll, which I do sometimes, um, I'm get I'm learning something, or it's someone in my niche that I can, oh, I can piggyback on that, I can comment, I can share that to my stories. Um, so being intentional about, you know, if you know you're someone who's gonna get sidetracked and you're gonna get on and you're gonna scroll, we all do it. Be really mindful of who you're following because you can really use that to your advantage. That's been helpful.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Yeah, I love that strategy. Um Bonnie, where can people listen to your podcast? Where are you hanging out the most? What's your website to learn about the groups? Where how can we get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Thank you for that. Um, so my company is called Empathetic Ennegram. So I'm on a website, empatheticeneagram.com. Um, that's the easiest place to find me doing Enneagram work. Um, I also have a personal website that I do some like more spiritual formation and theological thinking, bonniemace.com. I don't have an E in my name, so it's B O N N I for those of you listening. I made that mistake. Yeah. Thanks, mom. Um, yeah, so on Instagram and Facebook, I'm empathetic.eneagram. And I'm posting Monday through Friday Enneagram content for free. Love to have you there for that. Um, growth group signups will be on my website. You can find that there. Um, and then the podcast is called Entrepreneines and it's with my friend John who runs Unite Creative Co. And you can find us at anchor.fm slash entrepreneines with like multiple of us nines. Um and on Instagram and Facebook as well at entrepreneines.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Okay. I don't think I'm following your entrepreneurs Instagram page yet. So I'm gonna have to hop on and do that. Please do. It's very tiny and it's ridiculous, but we have fun. Yeah, hey, I'm here for it. I'm all here for it.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Kelsey, what about you? Where can we find you?

SPEAKER_02 52:05

Yeah, so for me, the hub is Instagram. So you'll find us at healthy nine number nine, healthy nine club, um, on Instagram. And anything that I'm doing, if you really want to be involved, um be checking my stories because that's really where I make offers and we we're really I'm having my community help me create the course. So if you want to help me create this course that's gonna be for you, hop on there. I ask lots of questions, and that way I can be sure I'm serving my nines the best.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Yeah. Well, and I'll get the links for for from both of you. So we'll add those to the show notes too, so people can just click on those as well. Um and then last question for you both. Um, we have talked a lot. I know there's so much more we could have gotten into. Um, but just to kind of make this conversation feel complete, is there anything else that you would add that I haven't asked you for either those of us who maybe want to understand a nine better, a nine who is wanting to start their own business or just in general, a woman wanting to kind of maybe pivot and do her own thing, get more visible. Any advice, final thoughts that I hadn't already asked you?

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Yeah, um, I can jump in. I say that nines like your dreams are worth realizing, and that your dreams, again, just to go back to what I said earlier, bring the unity you crave into the world and serve the people that you love. Um, so lean into it and lean into it hard. Um, honor your pace, like Kelsey was saying, because your pace is good, and embrace your strengths and your weaknesses and recognize that they don't make you better or worse than the people that you love. And for those of you who love a nine, when you see a nine, talk out loud. And when you see a nine, go after something that they said that they want, you give them all the praise. Like you affirm them, encourage them, go like their stuff if they're on social media, listen to their just give them affirmation because it's hard the way that they're showing up. And when they're doing that, they're leaning into their healthiest growth space. And that's something to celebrate with your friends who are doing it. So that's what I would leave you with.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

I would second that for sure. I mean, that validation really helps. It's really nice. It's a nice touch to get that from the people you love when you're doing something scary. Um, my best advice for a nine who's just wanting to get out there, whether you're starting a business or something else, um really take some time. And I I always say try to schedule like 15 minutes a day for a couple of weeks to just whatever this is for you, however, you process. Maybe you journal, maybe you I mean, sometimes I'll even just like talk to myself, like record myself on my phone. Um, but however you process things, really give yourself some time and space where you're alone and so you're not muddled by everyone else's opinions to just think about like what it is, what things are you drawn to, what things excite you? What is is there a problem you see in the world that you would love to play a role in solving? And that's just gonna help you kind of get to the heart and the root of like what it is that you might be drawn to doing, because that was really helpful for me in the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Oh, that was so good, Kelsey. Both of those were so good. And I everything both of you shared was so good. I learned so much personally. I know our nines listening are absolutely gonna gobble this up. And then I think those of us who are not nines, um, just have some um helpful insight and understanding about what it's like with that nine energy. So I appreciate you both so much. And um, I'll definitely be tuning into the podcast, Bonnie. And as always, Kelsey, I'm sure I'll be seeing you actually both over on Instagram. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Appreciate it.