SPEAKER_00 0:01

Inside this week's interview episode, you will be hearing from Katie Taylor, who identifies as a type six with a wing seven. Katie is also the owner of Abundant Collab Co. She is the host of the Hustle Less podcast. And then within her, the work that she does with that business, she does website design, visual branding. So all the fun and sexy stuff that we all want to work on, the logos, the fonts, the colors. And then on the back end, she gets to help clients as well with creative brand strategy and really as a business coach, helping them develop their marketing messaging and their positioning and their niche and their market. So such a powerhouse for services around looking good and then also sounding good to attract the people that you most want to help. So I love Katie's work. I I just admire and respect what she puts out. Everything is the highest of quality. It's all beautiful. It sounds amazing. I'm lucky to call Katie a friend. We have been voxering almost daily now for about a year, I think. Um it started off as an accountability experience. So I get to tap into some of this on a regular basis. And then Katie is also helping me with the Enneagram MBA brand. So stay tuned for more on that. But it's time for a little bit of a kind of a next level for the brand. Nothing's changing. It's not, and I don't want to say it's not changing, it's it's not going anywhere. The change, there'll be some changes, but it's really more of an expansion of an evolution, just the next step. So stay tuned more on that. Katie will be helping me with that project and really grateful for her insight and help on that. And then as a type six in general, for those that may not be as familiar with this energy, the type six is looking to be um to feel really secure, to feel safe, to feel supported. They tend to be really careful, really dedicated, really responsible, really vigilant, really looking after the group. They are they are excellent collaborators, they're great on a team. They also have a great sense of humor and witty. So just really fun to be around. On the flip side, they sometimes get a bab reputation for being a Debbie Downer, especially on a team, because anytime anybody brings a new idea or project to the table, they're going to be raising their hand and thinking, well, what if this goes wrong? Well, what if this happens? What about this? Have you thought about this? And so they are not negative at all. What they're doing is sometimes they're known as the skeptic, it's just kind of vetting and gut checking and making sure that this is the best option because they care so much for the team. They care so much for the success of the project. They want to see it do well. And so they want to make sure everybody's prepared for it to go forward. And then should something happen, they're prepared if something should go wrong. Um, I joke that the love language for the six is contingency planning. And then um I have the type six mugs on Etsy, and their saying on the back of the mug is prepared for the worst, but planning for the best. And we'll hear a little bit more too about how Katie experiences that saying. So the um there's lots of amazing qualities about the type six, the type six entrepreneur specifically. We'll get to hear about some of those and some of the struggles that they will typically have to navigate around. So Katie gets into some of that too. And then just as a quick note, the type six goes to a three in stress, which means they're gonna take on some of those workaholic uh qualities and behaviors. They're gonna kind of turn into that human doing, constantly in motion, can't sit still, right? And so, you know, that's a that's a great way to bring yourself out. So just something to know if you identify as a type six to be cautious of. And then when they're really feeling safe and secure and in this growth place of growth, they're going to take on some of those healthy qualities of the type nine that will actually help kind of even out their constant anxiety, bringing in some of that calmness, some of that stillness, some of the relaxation, the peacefulness that the type nine energy has. So that's just kind of a fun um thing to think about to reflect on if you identify with the six energy, and then also just to see how fluid the Enneagram is. We each number has those stress and growth arrows. So, without further ado, let's get into this interview and hear about work and life as a type six with Katie Taylor. Welcome to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your gifts, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. Each week you'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others, like your future clients, and help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gifts and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. Welcome to the show, Katie. Thank you very much. Okay, so I I kind of did a quick overview, but in your own words, would you just quickly fill in the gaps of anything that I might have missed about what currently you are working on and how you're helping your clients?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, for sure. Um you did a great job. You kind of hit on everything. So um I work with clients a lot of times. They ask for things like um an updated website, a review of their marketing plan, um, auditing their marketing plan and strategy, and really looking at where they're at in their business and then where it is ideally they want to go and grow their business. And then as an integrative marketing coach, my philosophy and approach to it is taking a step back and looking at the who, the what, and the how. And the who, the what, and the how are made up of the business details. So that would be like their industry, the services that they offer, where they're located, things like that, the non-negotiables that identify their business. And then the what is really starting to get into those individual brand pieces of how they do those services, um, how they do them, how it's unique compared to say another business in the same industry, and starting to identify those unique value components that their business brings to their clients, their audience, and their community. And then the third piece really is taking a look at who's behind the business. Because if you're looking at just one piece of the business or one piece of your offerings, and you're not taking it to the next level of looking at who those people are, you might be building out a marketing plan or creating business offers that don't make sense for the people behind them. And then likewise, the people of the business are going to have unique strengths and talents, um, or even, you know, thinking of the Enneagram, they're going to have desires or fears and hesitations. And it would be, you know, kind of silly not to look at those things when we're trying to map out the best way for them to support their own business and then themselves as well, so that their business is supporting their life and not controlling it.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Okay, so I think one of the gifts of the six is to be able to distill lots of data and information into something that makes sense. And I personally get to tap into that with Katie on our while we voxer and walk almost on a daily basis. But even just now, kind of how you laid out that process, I don't think that I think about it. And I don't know that a lot of other people kind of outline it like that. And it can be like marketing can be so much. And so the way that you just kind of laid that out, who, what, how, I think is genius and really helpful. Um, oh, actually, I want to, before we get into your type six energy, I actually want to talk to you a little bit more about the what you just said about that third part about who's behind the business. And I know you've talked a lot about not one all, not one size fits all when it comes to a specific strategy. And there is some marketing advice out there that has to do with like, if I can do it, kind of you can do it. Would you just talk a little bit about, because I think this is really relevant to understanding your personality and ties right in with why we want to learn about the Enneagram so that we can learn about ourselves more? You do this just kind of from a different angle. So, like, what do you see out there that's kind of been like a trend that's maybe not helpful? And and how do you work with your clients to kind of understand what's going to work for them?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yeah, so I think first and foremost, that the idea of I did it and so can you, more times than not is coming from a good place. I think that the intention behind it is to say, I can relate to you, you know, um, I've been there, so I understand. So I think that the intention can be good, and at the same time, it can be ineffective and or inaccurate. And so if we think about the different types of Enneagram and then our own experiences, our own strengths, um, our own capacity or where we're at, or even the goals that we have. And so thinking of goals and priorities kind of interchangeably, that's gonna dictate how we make things happen. And so it might be easier for somebody to put in 80 hours in a work week than it is for someone else. Or it might be easier for a particular Enneagram type to do a lot of networking events, and that might be really challenging for another Enneagram type. And is it possible? Sure, I think we can do, you know, we can do a lot of things. I think the shift from I did it and so can you is really shifting this the value over kind of our individualization, if that's the right word. Um, I think historically we would look to others as the expert. And part of that expertise is trusting them to show or tell us how to do something. And I think it's great that as we have social media and ways to stay connected, we have access to so many different resources. And with that comes kind of this power shift of we are no longer left to just follow the method that has been provided to us because that's how someone else did it. So I think that was sort of our proof of concept before. How do we do this thing? I don't know, but I found someone who figured it out and so they can help me. And now I think we have the gift of looking for a lot of different ways to accomplish similar goals. And from the lens of the Enneagram, we're gonna need to be supported and we're gonna need to map out those pieces differently for different individuals, companies, teams, and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

So good. Okay, so you said something, and this is, I guess we'll we can kind of start to dig into life as a type six, but in general, like one of the things that is a tendency, not an always forever, every time kind of thing, but is this that sixes have this really interesting relationship with authority? They tend to look outside themselves for kind of what to do, that guidance like you were kind of talking about. And then at the same time, they can be incredibly skeptical and kind of like prove to me you know what you're talking about. So does that, I guess this is a two-part question. Like, does that resonate with you? Do you experience that? And then two, how do you like, is there any type of criteria or things that you look for now as you've kind of grown to help you determine like who to listen to, what to take in, what not to take in? And because I think this is, yeah, I think we all kind of deal with this in in one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

It's definitely something that I relate to, especially in the first, you know, early seasons of opening abundant collab co. I had very little experience with the title of business owner entrepreneur. I was doing things that I hadn't done before. I was focusing on online visibility, messaging, offers. I was figuring out what to charge people to work together. I come from a nonprofit background. And so, in the beginning stages, the idea that somebody might be willing to pay me $30 an hour to discuss something like Instagram felt wild. And so that season, there was definitely a lot of looking to other people who had traveled similar roads or had done things that I might want to try and do and lean into their experience. And as I've gone further along, I think that there came this period where I maybe found myself a little resentful. Um, I I personally don't jive well with someone telling me how I have to do something. So that's kind of that authority struggle. Um if I trust somebody, I'm so down for whatever it is they recommend. And I've noticed at the same time, I'm really not good or I'm not likely to do something I don't want to do. And it's not like I don't want to do it. I think that's, you know, I don't want to. You can't tell me necessarily. I've kind of gotten to a point now where I am open to listening to most things, but I'm gonna run it through kind of my own filtering process now. And I'm gonna ask myself things like, does this make sense? Why was this possible for this other person? Are we in a similar position to where I can utilize some of the same resources? I'm looking at what I'm trying to accomplish, the time that's going to be involved. And ultimately, I think the shift is, and what I try to do as I continue moving forward is this idea of it sounds a little vague, and I want the same thing for all of my clients, is this ability to trust myself. And so now what it looks like when I am practicing trusting myself, and it's worth saying, I didn't realize that I didn't know how to trust myself until I realized it. So there was a lot of time spent where I didn't realize that this was even an issue. And so now trusting myself is kind of making decisions with the understanding that there is not a right and wrong. Um that if I make a decision and it doesn't play out the way I want, it wasn't the a bad decision, and the outcome is not a failure. And so kind of being more willing to move through that decision-making process, knowing that whatever is to come, I'm going to collect experience. I'm going to get insight, information. I'm also going to know like how it felt. And all of that is going to continue helping me make future decisions. And from there, it's easier to look to other people because I've likely identified the problem or the need or the desire or even just the want. Like I want to do this in my business because I think it would be fun or I think it would be helpful. Like I get to decide that first. And then I feel a little bit more in control when I go looking to an external support system, whether that's a coach, a mentor, a course, or a program. And I, you know, it's like when you go for a job interview, and traditionally we think that the company is interviewing the individual, but it's becoming more uh a more acceptable or a more reasonable idea that it's sort of a two-way street interview. Things need to be a good fit both ways. And so there's a rebalancing of that power and that authority. And so that's sort of what I'm channeling when I'm going and looking for people. And then I'm reminding myself that no matter who I pick or what I pick, I still am responsible for my own business. And I cannot expect them to be responsible for my outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Oh my God. So many good things, Katie. Well, and I I know that, you know, especially when you start putting yourself out there as your own business, and because it's like you came from the nonprofit world, which you just said like the $30 an hour story felt like insane, like to charge that much. And that so there's the pricing thing. And then even if you have come from a background where I came from sales, and so I'm used to being told no and putting myself out there and that kind of stuff. But then to put myself out there for my own business was like a completely different thing. So self-doubt is real for all the types, but it is true that sixes tend to have that as a common core struggle. I think because of that dynamic with authority. Um, I'm curious, how did you realize that type six was your type when you started learning about the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I think I can't remember which came first, but it was sort of a two-part process. The first part was a, I was working, one of the nonprofit organizations I was working with signed our team up to complete an online assessment through an agency, a third-party agency. And then we received the results of that assessment. And then we had like a one in-person kind of review, but the group was so big we weren't going through our individual reviews. It was just sort of an Enneagram overview from this presenter, that then we were ideally able to use that information to interpret our Enneagram results. And I have to say that how Enneagram coaches like you break down the Enneagram into bite-sized digestible pieces that we can actually make sense of and use in our life is incredible. And I wouldn't know how valuable that is if I hadn't sat through a presentation like this where I really was feeling super overwhelmed and confused by all of the information. And so I think after that training, I left something along the lines of thinking like, I'm a six wing two, like I'm a six wing two when I'm unhealthy, which we know that that's not how wings work. And now I identify with that seven wing. And what really brought my understanding or kind of identity as that Enneogram six from just knowing it from an assessment to feeling it, feeling seen, feeling validated was I don't know if you remember the um the album, I think it's sleeping at last. They did, he composed a song for each number type of the Enneogram. And I am one of those people that when I heard my song and I had that moment of feeling understood in a new way, I cried.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

I think a lot of people, that's always the feedback. Anytime somebody mentions sleeping at last, they're like, and then I cried.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

And they're very, very like abstract songs. So that is what what he created with that is is amazing for it to create that response in each of the number types.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

I but we're gonna have to link that. And I actually haven't listened to my own. I just keep hearing people, and I'm like, I don't know, like a song. I doubt that I get it. But okay, now that you said it, I'm like, okay, I'll check it out. You know, what's so interesting is um what made you think that what was it about the two that felt like, oh, maybe this is. Like my second one because this is very common for women. I feel like to have a two somewhere in the top of their list initially.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

For me, what it was was the characteristics or the qualities that we often see associated in a two were the types of behaviors that I was using in situations where I felt unsafe. And my coping mechanism to recreate that safety was to try and make sure everybody else was okay. So putting other people, putting other people's needs before my own, giving, caretaking, those types of things were just an attempt that I now know. They were just an attempt to find my way back to safety.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

That's so interesting. And I think that is just, I mean, it not I think it absolutely is another reason why understanding the motive and not getting so caught up on the behaviors is so important. Um, because it's like, yeah, two would be wanting that for connection and you're looking at it for safety and security. So interesting. So, so interesting. So I'm I'm curious now because I know that you have done so much self-growth work and reflection on yourself in the last, I mean, just since we met on Instagram, which is just really crazy to think about. I I don't know what is it now, like two and a half, three years ago. Um something like that. And then I actually just uh watched your kids for a weekend not too long ago. So I mean, who would have thought Instagram friends would be watching each other's kids? It does happen. So anyway, um, but I I know just since we've met, like we both have grown a lot. How do you find your sense of safety and security now? Or or or how has how have you seen that shift over the last few years?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yeah, I'm really grateful to have had the opportunity and the ability to work with both some really great coaches and mentors while at the same time doing work in therapy every week. And my first kind of I was very apprehensive to therapy, not because of the industry, just past experiences as a kiddo. And so I started with an Enneogram coach, not Sarah, but a friend of ours, uh Christy of Enneogram University. And we did a five-week program together, and that was really the first time that I felt that I was able to start to self-reflect in a helpful way. And then from there, that information and what I've continued to learn about myself and how I continue to use the Enneagram, I'm taking that information and I'm taking that language that I understand and I'm taking it into therapy. And so it's a really beautiful, messy, frustrating, empowering process. But through that work with a for me, with a trauma-informed therapist on a weekly basis, just recognizing, and I think that this is probably more common with the six than other numbers was I wasn't doing a very good job of showing myself compassion. And I two of my greatest fears were what if I'm wrong? And what if I let someone down? And that left me feeling very stuck and confined because as we as we know, mistakes are part of being human, changing our minds, changing our opinions is sort of an evolving process. And I had kind of kept myself in this space that I thought I could stay safe if I was never wrong and I never let anybody down. And that made me very dependent on other people's opinions, but even more than that, the stories that I was making up about what I thought other people's opinions were, and then I was trying to respond accordingly, and it's really tiring to do that, and so just recognizing those those core motives, and then giving myself a lot of time and grace to ask myself and explore, like, well, what if that's not true? And so I started with really baseline concepts of like things like when I would feel something or I would feel us, you know, the nervousness in my body, you know, just telling myself, like, that makes sense. It makes sense that you would feel that way. And it sounds so simple, but I was surprised by how many opportunities there were for me to remind myself of that where I previously hadn't. And so um, I also I think as women, especially the the per the perfectionist tendencies or the people-pleasing tendencies, um, I just had to get over that. And it sounds really easy to say it that way. It it definitely took time, but um, doing the work to realize that I'm probably gonna let people down. I'm I remember someone, I said something to someone about some conflict that I had experienced in a relationship. And I remember saying something like, I think I'm the villain in their story. And and that's killing me because I, you know, it was like, until I can prove that I'm not the villain, that means that people are believing I did something wrong. And I was like, I I can't, I can't live with that. And the work really wasn't so much about proving to them that I wasn't the villain, it was being okay with that. That we're gonna have different, we're we're gonna have different experiences of the same thing. And honestly, making peace with the fact that I can't convince everyone to like me or see me in in the way that I would prefer they do, really shifts where a lot of of my energy goes on a daily basis. And then that might I would say to my therapist, I think I'm afraid of people seeing me, right? That's I'm I'm could be vulnerable, people could tell me I'm doing something wrong. I had tried so hard to create safety by by never doing anything wrong, you know, always being great at things so that no one could get mad at me, they couldn't be disappointed in me, they couldn't point a finger back to me because in my experience of growing up, when that finger was pointed back at me, my safety was in question in my environment. And so just something as simple as telling myself, like, you are safe now, and asking myself, what happens if that finger is pointed at you? And really giving my brain a new path to walk down and thinking through, like, oh, like really nothing happens. It like normal things happen, like disagreements or you know, an argument with my spouse, like those are normal things, and that's what might happen, and I'll be okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Oh, Katie, there's so many good things in there that you shared. I I I love that too, because it's like you're letting go of the control and getting curious and like, why do I think this, or like what might happen instead of like this has to happen, or else. And so just kind of like rewriting the stories.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Well, and even finishing those sentences, like you, you know, if if someone is a six or someone who maybe has is more inclined to an anxious energy, our body almost has a sensation based on what they what it thinks might happen or what it's preparing for, right? It's bracing for the experience. But my therapist so kindly would kind of keep me in that moment and say, like, when that happens, what are you worried about happening? And I realized that I didn't even know, I didn't even have words for it sometime. It was just like my body, my muscle memory was like, yeah, here we go. And so that was another way of kind of shifting my own power and saying, you know, no, it's okay, body, you know, whatever, whatever part of me is kind of triggering that body response. Like there's also another part of me that can say, it's okay. No, no, no, we're all right. There is no threat here. We are we are safe. Whatever safety looks like, you know, for for for each of us. For me, it was no, we're okay. And I can, I'm, I cannot believe that something like her saying, tell me what you think will happen. And then me realizing, like, well, it doesn't really feel like fair that my answer is I don't know, because I'm like sweating right now, you know, and my stomach hurts. And you're asking me what's gonna happen. And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm I'm a mess. And that I'm now it's like, okay, I, you know, I I have that power to walk myself through it.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Okay, that is so good. And um, you know, sixes do get a reputation for being anxious, but really all types do. So that's not a great um measurement to decide if you are because sometimes people say, Well, I'm anxious, so I must be a six, but it is like why you're being anxious. And for that six, it's that control um or the wanting to feel safe and secure. Um something, maybe it'll come back to me. I had something I was gonna follow up with you on, but while my my brain maybe thinks about that, I wanted to ask you about this idea of projection, because I think sometimes too um sixes do that, maybe so they can have that control, like they already know what somebody's gonna say. And so I know you know this, Katie, but for anybody who's like, what does projection have to do with it? Each of the types have a specific core vice or like emotional pattern that gets called different names, but it's kind of like your coping strategy or or a defense mechanism. And um for a um six, their defense mechanism is projection. So tell me, I'm just curious, like how what comes up for you, or how do you experience that?

unknown 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Or how have you?

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, um, I have experienced it a lot. And there's there's I'm like, where should we start? You know, so whether it's personally in my personal life or in my professional life, I think it's easier to speak to from the professional perspective. Um, you know, I want to, I've had to realize that part of my projecting is I need to make sure I'm not getting too kind of a meshed with my clients, that there is a distinct separation between me and them. And that means that in the same way that I can't hold someone else responsible for my business, I'm not responsible for someone else's business either. And that was not an easy distinction for me to make because it to me it tied back to that fear of like, I don't want to let them down. And my new mantra is not that I don't care, I have to stop proving to myself that I care, and I have to stop the idea that I have to prove to my clients that I care, and I need to just move forward in my belief that I care. I don't need to prove it, it is. And when I'm proving that I care, that's when those unhealthy emotions or behaviors start to make their way into the process. But when I show up with the belief that I care, then I'm able to be available to them without feeling overly responsible to them. And so my mantra is now more along the lines of like, and it's it's not anything, it's not a dig at anybody else, but it's never my job to care more about someone else's business than they do. And then so I think sixes tend to feel really responsible for others, yeah. Just like you had a thought, I had a thought and I lost it. Um with projection. I like to um I want to I want to understand everything because that helps me feel prepared. And and and when you're being in the moment, there are just going to be things that come up in that moment. And that that could feel really scary for me with a new business. I want to prove or I want to be held as someone capable, competent. Um, sometimes, you know, in our in our voxers, I say, like, I I want to make sure people are taking me seriously. And so that right there is a projection in and of itself. Like, I'm projecting that there is someone not taking me seriously. And it's like, has anyone ever said they're not taking you seriously? Well, like, no. Yeah. But I just want to make sure I'm being taken seriously. And so my way of doing that is is is uh projecting essentially a story. And the work for me is taking the facts and the information and what a client has shared with me and leaving those gaps until we fill them in together rather than me trying to fill those gaps in so that I can feel more in control of what's happening. It's like, I'm gonna get on a client call and I'm not gonna, there will be no surprises. They won't ask me a question that I don't know the answer to. You know, I will, I'll know everything about everything ahead of time. And that is, I will say, not a sustainable business. That's a lot. Yes. Don't put that on the business plan and and then recognize, and then it all kind of is just like cyclical. It's like, so what happens if they ask you a question you don't know? Well, what do they think I can't help? Like, uh, well, we can't control what they think, and we can use past experiences to say that one humans aren't perfect. And if somebody is going to hold me to that standard of perfection, they're going to be disappointed. I want to work with people who say, like, I know you can help me. And also I know that there's going to be things that work better than other things. So I want to make sure too that I'm I'm okay if with the fact that if somebody didn't get enough from me, I say this with so much kindness and my own journey through this, that's on them. With with love, kindness, compassion, that is on them. That is something that is that is their work to do. And I'm confident that I am not overselling. I'm not leading people in an in an unhonest way. And so all that's left to do from there is show up and and work together and use my training and my experience and my knowledge around marketing and branding and website design, and just do be there with them for that.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

So good, Katie. Um, I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that because for whatever the motive is, like for you, it's be prepared so that people, you know, that I'm I'm safe in this, these relationships in my business. People think I'm I know what I'm doing, so they'll come back to me. Um, but for what are whatever reason, we can all kind of relate to that. And I I called them like I was having two thoughts at one time. I called the projection a vice. It's really a defense mechanism. Nobody cares, I know. But if there's any Enneagram people that are like, she's here's me wanting to feel capable and confident. It's all on the record. It's on the record. It's on the record, yeah. So edit, edit here, updated article. Um so the other thing I want to talk to you about before we jump into and kind of start to wrap up with some of what you were talking about around branding and business and that kind of thing is um so on my um Enneagram mugs for the type six, I wrote um prepared for the worst, but planning for the best. Because I also think it could have been like contingency planning is my love language. Um, does that resonate with you? And like how do you like what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 39:53

I think for me it means um I want to, I would prefer to map things out. I want to know where I'm going. And at the same time, I can't keep an agenda or a calendar up to date to save my life. I am not a digital calendar person. Um I to-do lists make me feel trapped. You know, maybe that's my seven energy. And at the same time, I think how it shows for me is not so much in that rigidity as it is, I need, I need a map. And that's just like the best language I can put to it because a lot of times it lives in my head, but I need to know where I'm going and I need to know, I need to have some idea. And a lot of it just comes instinctually and is some of what I think allows me to do the work that I do with my clients. I just sort of see the map. That's like that's like my my lens. Like it's like I've got the like the goggles on, the superhero goggles, you know, the night vision. But when I put mine on, it's like I see the world through like like graphs, not graphs, like the what are those things, like the little spider graphs where like the little bubble graphs, where it's like you start in the middle and you work your way out. And the reason I want that is is because so that there's free, it's not, it doesn't make me feel confined. It actually gives me the freedom to follow whichever thing feels best. And then knowing if that thing doesn't go the direction I want, I've still got all these other options and and we're still gonna continue going in a meaningful direction. So I don't know if that answers your question. I don't like set plans. My poor husband just last weekend I was asking him something to do around the house, and he's a nine. And I can just run through like five game plans of what we're gonna do around the house for one afternoon. And I've just realized he is just cannot keep up. I can just, it's like, okay, we're swapping out number three for number five, or we're gonna move number two down to number five because that makes more sense because we're already more close to doing number one. And like that is just my brain all the time. And so I've had to start saying back to him, um, you know, I tend to overestimate the amount of time we have in the day, or I tend to change plans so naturally that I don't even realize that what we're doing isn't even one of the five things I said we were gonna do because this thing just felt so natural to start on. I said, you can tell me, you can say, like, whoa, Katie, because in my mind it's all still within kind of that bubble graph. When I surveyed the yard and came up with what we needed to do that afternoon for the the grass or the garden, or you know, it all made it on that bubble graph, but my poor husband doesn't have a copy of the bubble graph. And he and he's like, Where are we going? And having like to that to that thing, and nope, to that thing. So that is sort of my version of a contingency plan rather than I don't know, I don't know what other people's contingency plans might look like.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yeah, that's so I'm so glad you shared that too, because again, we get caught up in these like stereotypical behaviors, and sometimes people have a hard time identifying am I a one, am I a six, am I a two, am I not, you know, whatever, um, because I like to plan or I don't like to plan. And just like you said, like that can be expressed or like presented in all kinds of ways. And also it's worth noting that sixes along with fives and sevens, because I can really relate to what you said, are all in that like mental head center of intelligence. And so there is a lot happening above our heads. It's like the little, there's always a little thought bubble, multiple ones. And it's so funny that you said that because I'll also like throw ideas to my boyfriend. And this in like a work setting too, a lot of times sevens, probably sixes, probably fives, maybe, maybe not as much, but will throw out things and in a meeting or to their team or to their assistant and like we're going to do all these things. And they are sharing them as ideas and possibilities and options. And that person is taking notes and making a to-do list and getting overwhelmed because there's 10 things to do now. And you're like, oh look, that was just an idea. It was an option. So when you have language, this is what I was going to say, Katie, because you said this so well. I just want to come back to it as we wrap up the Enneagram section. So there was a quote that I had written down actually this morning. It said the Enneagram is kind of like a language, not so much a personality quiz. And it really is, I think if that's when you were talking about your therapist, it's kind of helping you like bring the language and the questions to ask. And I love I love that because I I do I I actually think that it gives you more questions than answers in the beginning, but it's like going back to like your curiosity like why am I doing this? So it's like helpful questions, useful questions rather than like you know, why am I such why am I so bad at this? Or like what's wrong with me? It's like expand your question library so that you can grow and transform and and kind of let some of that should and shame and all that kind of go. So um I would love to hear a little bit about um what you're working on right now because I know you have a new program um called Biz to brand and also I know you're in your own certification problem, not problem program. Yes. So I I guess my first question is you you have a new program called Biz to brand tell you can tell us a little bit about that. But I'd also love to know like what is the difference between a business and a brand because I think a lot of times people probably think they're one and the same or kind of switch them out. Like I have a brand I have a business what is the difference?

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Yeah so Biz to brand is a 90-day small group program helping women business owners realize the potential within their own business so that they can continue to grow it in the ways that make sense for them. And a lot of times the the business owner story is we have a passion, we have a desire whether that's towards something we have a you know we have a passion to do a particular thing and we want to be able to do more of it or we have a desire to get away from a certain experience around our work or our career and and to pursue that desire it it looks like starting a new business. And so I really think of the business as the starting point the things you have to have they're the things that feel the easiest to identify. So those are you know you have your you know your website or your offers your services you know someone could come in from the outside and they could point to the things in your business oh this is your your website messaging or this is an email that I got from this business. And sort of just produce and create you know you have the offers you have the website you have your pricing but looking at the brand and I don't so much mean brand you know like oh you know we use we use things like Coca-Cola. They have such a good brand you know the red yeah that but that's like a different that's like not the stadium we're playing in when I'm working with small businesses like my clients. So branding is just really looking at the opportunities for each of these businesses to take those you know those logistics of the business and turn them into something that can't be replicated anywhere else. You know these are the things that you couldn't you couldn't you know you couldn't put us like a label on like I could walk up to the business and put a label on website I could put a label on this is their office this is their email you know this is here's what they do. You can't put a label on like whoop there's the customer experience like oh there's the emotion there's the the perceived value that allows them to charge more or less than their competitors there's the expectations or you know there's their reputation like those are the things that move a business into a brand and really it's it's the inner workings it's the how and when we can get into those things along with the who the person so that people are so unique. And I'm kind of getting off on like a on a little like side trail but a lot of times a lot of times people have have had a job before they own a business and there are things about that job that they wanted to get out of whether it was the commute or the dress code or the office politics or a boss they didn't drive with or coworkers or just like an imbalance in their their ethics. And so we hear a lot about starting your own business to you know do what you want be your own boss experience the freedom but then without realizing it we almost just put ourselves in another box and it's the box of what you quote unquote should do as a business owner. And I generally anytime I find myself using the word should in a sentence I stop and I ask myself why why do I think I should why do where where did that come from and then a lot of times if if I feel good about the reason I realize it's really not a should and if it is a should it's more times than not coming from a place of guilt you know I'm not working hard enough you know I should get up earlier. I should do this thing I should have more posts on social media I should go to more you know networking or marketing events I should make a real you know all it's like why why it's really not the should it's maybe you want to be more active on social media because you have this new offer or you are doing this thing in your business and people don't know about it. That's not a should that's a like how do I want to and how can I do that in a way that doesn't just switch that nine to five office stress for the entrepreneur stress of feeling like you have to do this thing in a certain way. So there's just I think that being your own boss or being an entrepreneur is one of the greatest gifts to lean into your creative freedom we hear that about entrepreneurs they're they're idea makers they're creatives they don't fit in the box they kind of march to the beat of their own drum and then we try to like put them back in a different box with those methods of like I did it this way you can too or if you don't do this. And we just kind of find a different way to take away all that freedom that we just gave ourselves to begin with. So you know you've got the business slap the label on the business the brand is the things that come from the business and the people and the people are bringing their ideation like what is their vision for that company think we think everybody has the same end goal in mind for our companies and that is not the case. And what are our experiences? What are our strengths like what's her capacity I know I know for me you know I started Abundant Collab Co when I had a toddler in the home and so many times I have found myself wanting aspiring to have a more developed company and at the same time I know that my my capacity and my priorities resources have meant that I'm growing this business with part-time hours and she will go now she is heading to kindergarten in the fall. So my plan whether it's on paper or it's the bubble graph in my head my plan of growing this marketing and brand and web design business with limited hours looks a lot different than somebody who can put in 40 to 50 hours a week and still have time to like walk the dog, go to the gym, cook dinner. And so we're gonna have to do things differently. They have a little bit more wiggle room. I have tried to be you know based on who I am and how I work I have chosen to be a little bit slower, more intentional. You know, when you said things are just ideas and people are trying to like write down the notes you know as as furiously as they can, I call that like the whiteboard. So I put a lot of things on the whiteboard that either live on the whiteboard or come off of the whiteboard and never move past the whiteboard. So all of those things in a very uh very big enthusiastic answer because I love it so much is really what I mean when I say we're moving a from a business to a brand.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

I will say I want to channel I'm always thinking like I need to channel more of that like not it's not even slow. It's like intentional intentionality because as a seven I find myself being very impulsive. Like I just had a new idea this week and I'm like let's change the website change the brand colors I think too if I had more time more things would probably come off the whiteboard.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

So I can't give myself like full credit for that ability. Some of it is just like when I am like looking at the clock or I'm looking at the hours that I have it's like well do you want to like give this new idea for a go? Like give it a go. Do you want to work on something that's already on your to-do list or maybe do you just want to like drink a glass of wine on the back patio you know and if that's my only time to do that like I like I have to make that decision. So some of it's sort of forced um and then you had asked me about my the certification. So I wanted to touch on that briefly I'm really excited about it. I think that it uh I want to say it's like a passion project but really I think it's it's a necessity it is a necessary component of working with clients especially women especially coming out of a two year global pandemic. There's no shortage of research of the impact that this has had on women particularly in the US, which most that's where most of my clients are and so it's a six month certification program. And at the end of the program I will be both a trauma informed entrepreneur, certified trauma informed entrepreneur and certified human first business owner. And so that's really just if we look at it through the lens of the the business the brand and the people that's really just moving the people to the top of that hierarchy and seeing them first before we move into the logistics of any type of system framework method to-do lists you know what they need to do what they have to do. And so it's really just shifting the approach and I the I think where that's going to take a little bit of time for people to to trust is a lot of marketing is you know work with me and by the end you'll have XYZ you know I gain 10 000 followers in a month hire me and I'll help you. And it's kind of taking those black and white statements out of the picture and really just putting the work on the table that needs to be done without telling them in such concrete terms where they'll be at the end of it because that's kind of a control mechanism too whether it's for their sake they want to feel in control they want to feel like whatever the enneagrim type they may be, they want to be in control because they don't want to get it wrong. They you know they want to be in control because they want their perception of achievement they don't want to risk that or you know whatever it may be it's it kind of goes back to that trusting the process because especially in the online space I think there's a lot of solutions being sold. And at some point we have to recognize that it isn't just solution after solution after solution so much as it is just the the ongoing process and act of being a business owner. And so yes there's a lot of room to play around and there's a lot of people who have really great experience that they can offer and at the same time I just totally lost my thought they have people have all these great ideas and these offers but at the same time like there are just some just some core truths to running a business. And so that is inside Biz to brand it's kind of um marrying those two things up like you can't sign up for an email marketing course if you don't understand what an email marketing course is going to do in your business. But if it's sold as a solution then we kind of look for that well this is the solution. Okay but do we know what the problem is and I think now we have so many resources we kind of skip past a lot of the um the education I don't mean education like want want boring professor in a classroom I mean the the education that equips us to trust ourselves with the decision making process when we go looking for that help in our business.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

Yeah I think that's such a great reminder for everybody to think about. So it's like why do you want to be on Instagram? Why do you want to learn Instagram reels and not the solution isn't the problem but I think it is just we we can lose sight because I I I I am very vulnerable or like gullible to like those kind of things too especially in the beginning like oh my God let me buy this course on how to make millions of dollars creating a course um and then it happens and then sometimes it doesn't and it doesn't mean that it won't ever happen but um it is just understanding yourself what you want your days to look like I know you and I have already talked about this but I just have to say it because I think it's so in line with what you're talking about like with that human first like putting the person at the top of the business. There's a gentleman I follow over on LinkedIn and he said he doesn't have a goal next year of doubling his income what his goal is to maintain his income but actually cut his working hours in half and that blew my mind like oh my God yes because we just want to keep growing and growing and growing. But it's like well there's another there's all kinds of growth. So I love that you're doing that work. I would I would just be curious as we wrap this up um what you so human first business owner I I absolutely love that. And I think that that like you know there's all kinds of website designers um like working with somebody who has that at the top of the list I think is really um important. One of the things that the Enneagram shines light on I think is just that human who are you like getting some language putting some language and then what you're working on too is just that like how do your past experiences play into play into what you want to do? Would you give either maybe an example from like a client or just that you have seen about maybe like where some and I said you know Instagram and like maybe Instagram isn't your thing because you just think it is but like does an example come to mind about kind of a should or just how to think about well your past experience might be affecting like why this isn't working for you or your personality?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

Yeah and I I would say that in the moment and in the conversation you know I maybe not be asking them outright I mean can you think of something from your childhood but oh yeah yeah yeah yeah you know but maybe you know and I do think of the Enneagram a lot and and obviously I don't know you know I love the Enneagram. I often I also like Clifton strengths and I like them for the information that they provide me to create a better connection. And so a lot of times I will listen to what I'm hearing from my clients and and for the Enneagram I can't type them but I can start to be a little bit more intentional or look I'm listening for different things in their answer than I used to. And just like I said my therapist asked me to finish the sentence and I would have sworn that I knew what the answer was until she asked me to finish it that is what I want to offer my clients when they say I want to I need more followers on Instagram that's a lot that's a big one. And I think it's it can be for a myriad of reasons. And so it's it's being present in that conversation and then sharing with them you know what would it look like to be more present on Instagram and what does that look like through the lens of this individual client? If they hate being on video then they have to decide and there is no right or wrong but they have to decide do you want to run a business where you are uncomfortable every day? Or can we look to the intention behind being on Instagram more and what you're trying to accomplish and create a path that is more supportive of who you are and I'm sure you can think of different Enneagram types who are more inclined to want to be in the spotlight. And so that trauma informed or thinking on past experiences is really you know just an intent, you know, statistically most people will have experienced a trauma something traumatic women are kind of in this you know season where there's a lot of talk around the ingrained beliefs you know the patriarchy and so there's a lot of just trying to figure things out and what does that mean and and so even if someone doesn't identify as having had a traumatic experience it's really just giving me the ability to know how to hold more meaningful conversations with them so that we aren't just looking for external solutions, external marketing plans. We're looking at how to support them too. So that that obviously would tie into their Enneagram type and and we want to lean into the things that make them great we don't want to try to put them into the um you know we're not trying to squish them into this uh what I don't know like a little like like a little play-doh thing you put the play-doh in and you like put the handle down that like steady like we don't we talk about this all the time like things are already hard things are going to be hard I used to think my goal used to be if I can just avoid all stress in my life life will be easy that wasn't the case but life felt kind of empty and so it's realizing you know it's gonna happen but I get to choose like what kind of stress is worth it do I want to grow? Would I like to develop the skills to be on Instagram? Do I want to go to networking events? Do I maybe want to say that like two or three networking events is my max um do I want to take a speaking class like you get to decide and you don't have to go through somebody else's mold and like that additional pain just let it be easy and I and that's that's a lot harder because we don't I don't think we know what easy can look like and I think we have been conditioned you know hustle try harder take on more pull yourself up by your bootstraps. If you want it you'll find a way and it's like well like what if we just step away from those beliefs like what if it could be easier and what if you don't want the same things as everybody else or maybe you do but you're gonna go about it differently or it's gonna take you a different amount of time or you're not willing to compromise or sacrifice the same things as other people can that be okay and I I think the answer is yes it's just finding like making that decision for yourself and then finding the resources to help you from there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

Okay so we could talk about that I think in a whole other episode um but for anybody who's like oh my gosh I'm like really resonating with this really resonating with her energy what she's saying the program where can people learn more about Biz to brand and what you are doing? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:55

So my website is katymtaylor.co so that's where they can learn about my business in general. Um if they're interested in biz to brand it's just kdmtaylor.co slash b2b. And so if the program is open, they are welcome to enroll or they can hop on the wait list for that. And then I'm also on Instagram. So that's my platform of choice. And I am at abundant collab co and then I also just launched a podcast. So the hustle less podcast is on Apple and Spotify. And I would absolutely love for them to tune in there as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

I know we could have I we should have there's here's the should it's like so many other things like hustle less what does that mean all the things. So we'll have to do something again soon about that because I feel like that also very much resonates. And I got to be a guest. So I'll absolutely we'll have to link up um that in the show notes too with your new podcast. Before we go, just really three rapid fire questions. What is a personal development book or a business book that has had an um a meaningful impact in your life that you would recommend there are two books that come to mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

The first one would be We Should All Be Millionaires. Oh yeah. I loved that book from the perspective of just recognizing some of the money stories that that I maybe that I believed or I had growing up and then just realizing the power of reframing like the desire that of what like what my desires are around money and then what happens with money. So I love that. And then I also love the lazy genius way or the lazy genius. So it's 13 principles to identify and focus on what matters and ditch the rest like love it. And I the author uh just is so gifted in just seeing you where you are offering what's helpful and saying don't worry about the rest.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Sound like so good so good both of those. I haven't read either one of them so added to a very long list but oh the lazy genius sounds like my kind of book. What's a tool that is helping you or like it's a go-to tool of yours that helps you in your business, software a piece of I don't know office gear, anything that is making your life easier or helping you do your work better?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

Yeah um I really love I started using uh not quite a year ago I use Basecamp for my project management. So that is where I can put to-do lists I can chat with clients and like I said before I am kind of a paper and pen kind of person. So that is allowing me to connect with different people that I have as contractors. It's allowing me to host all of my projects over there. And the big takeaway there is I'm not emailing with my clients. When we're doing website design there can just be you know dozens and dozens of emails and it's hard for them and for me. And so to ensure that everything stays you know in a place where I can see it and reference it so that we're you know we're we're moving quickly there's not a lot of time waste we're valuing both of our time I really love using Basecamp.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

Okay that sounds like a great one. And then what is your definition or like when somebody says like oh I'm just like living my best life or you know the the best version of of my life what is what does that look like for you? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:38

So oh boy I would say I'm not I that is not easy for me to do I would say I would say I'm not uh inclined to be like this is the best life I really feel that seven energy heart. I am striving for what could make me feel even better than what I'm feeling now. And I think and I was reading something of yours recently um about a six and how they can be good in the moment but they maybe don't see how far they've come and so ironically enough I would say like living my best six life is honoring and acknowledging everything that I have done up to this point and then being excited about what is still ahead without yearning for it to the point that I'm no longer celebrating everything that's already happened. So it's just being present as simple as it sounds my best life is being present. It's being excited or happy or grateful whatever the word is to like be doing a garden with my daughter because it means you know how many changes did I make in my life to be in this moment you know without looking ahead to like I wish we had eight gardens and we're gonna go off the grid. It's like maybe those can be great ideas and I can be excited about them but don't let them kind of put a little like rain cloud over the moment that is so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:21

I like that idea. Well Katie thank you so much for all that you shared and it was really so insightful. I mean we talk all the time but I feel like I even got some additional nuggets just from this so I know absolutely listeners will as well so I do as always hope that you'll connect with Katie over on Instagram let her know what you're taking away from this episode let her know that you heard it and and what you loved. And Katie, thank you so much. We'll um absolutely be seeing you we'll have to have you back because there are so many other things to get into um so maybe after some of your your um human first programming and that kind of thing we'll have to have a more in depth conversation about that and hustling less as well. So thank you lady I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:06

You are welcome I am honored to have had a chance to be on the show with you. Thanks so much