SPEAKER_02 0:00

Being an entrepreneur has a lot of upside, right? There's the flexibility and the autonomy. There is the just pure possibilities of what you could create, what you could put together, who you could meet, what experiences you could have. There's also some downsides sometimes too, right? Like everything, there's that ebb and flow. And one of the things I have personally experienced, and I know that my other entrepreneur peers have, just in conversations and in different groups that I've been a part of, is sometimes the loneliness that can happen when you're, you know, putting your head down, creating things, working with clients in the day-to-day. A lot of times you're doing it by yourself. And this is especially true for those of us who are, you know, still growing. Maybe we've added a VA to the team. Maybe we've hired a consultant to help us with a special project, but there's still something about having that dedicated team member that can feel like something's missing. I know in my personal experience, one of the things I miss most about my jobs, my former jobs, is that team camaraderie. Um, there's something about working together as a team, working towards the same goal, you know, having that insight about different clients, about your strategies, about where you're going. Um, that just it's like, okay, this person, this person really gets it. I feel, I feel supported. I have this, I have this teammate. So in today's episode, we're going to hear about that dynamic, both from the CEO who brought a teammate, a dedicated teammate onto the team, and as that teammate, what that was like leaving behind their own business to join someone else's team. And my guests today are very special. They're incredibly powerful, inspiring women who I also look to as mentors and have been learning from inside a program called the Thought Leadership Academy, which you'll hear a little bit more from inside this episode. And um, I have so much to say about my experience, so many things that I learned, and I share a lot of it inside an episode that I got to be a part of on the Speaking Your Brand podcast. So I'll link that in the episode if you are looking at wanting to do more public speaking. This program tells you how to do everything, how to lay out your speeches, how to create keynotes versus lead generation, engage the audience, get paid, all that kind of stuff. So um definitely check that out. And then Carol and Diane, my guests today, will share a little bit more about that. Speaking of my guests, I do have Carol Cox, who is the founder and CEO of Speaking Your Brand, host of the podcast and creator of the signature talk canvas. Carol also during election season, you can find her um as a democratic political analyst on TV News. She was named as Orlando's Women, Woman of one of Orlando's Women of the Year in 2021 and has been featured in Forbes. She also has her masters in history, which we talk a little bit when it comes to her Enneagram type later on in the episode. And I'll add to Carol's bio that she also identifies as an Enneagram type five. Diane Diaz is my other guest today, who is the lead speaking coach for The Speaking Your Brand. Um, she's a personal brand strategist, and she also does lots of public speaking on personal branding, LinkedIn strategy, and women's empowerment. Um, she has her master's degree in business administration. Um, and I will add, is an Iron Man triathlete, which I just admire so much being somebody who has done a marathon. I can't imagine doing an Iron Man. So just very much um impressed by that. And then Diane identifies most with an Enneagram type six. So inside this interview, you got the five, six, seven, all of us head at me as this type seven, all of us in that head center. We talk a little bit about what that's like inside this episode. So without further ado, enjoy this episode with Diane Diaz and Carol Cox. Welcome to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your gifts, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. Each week you'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others, like your future clients, and help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gifts and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MVA podcast. Today I love these kind of episodes where I get to have more than one person. I always like my one-on-ones, but it's always fun to do a group too. And today is extra special because I'm actually being joined by two of my mentors. I have Carol Cox and Diane Diaz, who are with Speaking Your Brand. And I'm gonna let them share a little bit about the work that they're doing. But this one's really special because I actually just completed my own graduation with the Speaking Your Brand Thought Leadership Academy, where we talked about signature talks and getting paid to speak and speaking up in general. So that was a really great experience that I actually got to talk about on their podcast that I'll have to link to. Um but before we get any further, let me let me bring you both in. Welcome to the podcast, Carol and Diane. Thanks, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Thanks so much, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

And I should also say that um Carol is joining us as we think a type five, maybe a three or a one. And then Diane is joining us as an Enneagram type six. And the work that they do really has a focus around bringing more women into speaking roles, into the boardrooms, onto keynote stages. So, Carol, would you share just a little bit more about what you and the team are doing at Speaking Your Brand currently and just maybe even how that's shifted since the pandemic?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah, so happy to, Sarah. At speaking your brand, we provide coaching and training to women entrepreneurs and professionals to help them create their signature talks. So to get on those keynote stages, TEDx stages, conference stages, and then also to develop their thought leadership platforms along the way. I started this company in 2015, but really went full-time with it in 2018. Lots of pivots in the past 20 years as a serial entrepreneur. And then prior to the pandemic, of obviously we were focused very much on in-person speaking engagements to help our clients prepare, get you know, get those types of engagements, deliver on stages with the pandemic when all of those got canceled and shut down. We had to pivot and figure out well, how can we best serve our clients? And that's really where this umbrella of thought leadership came in. And we see speaking as a channel underneath thought leadership, but really as the primary driver to accelerate your credibility and authority as a thought leader is through public speaking.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

And then Diane, as the lead speaking coach here at Speaking Your Brands, what would you say to somebody who maybe is like thought leadership? That sounds great, but like what exactly is that?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah, that's a really great question, Sarah. I would say that it's it's sort of the thing that you stand for, whether whether you're positioning yourself for your own business or just for your career working for someone else. I think it's important to have something that you yourself stand for and that you champion, and that's your own message. I learned as a person who had been laid off during the financial crisis from corporate that you need to own something. And your thought leadership, I feel, is really the thing that you can own, whether you work for someone else or for yourself. It is that thing that you own.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

And then um, I want to come back to that, Diane, in just a second. But Carol, I know that you talk a lot about that expert trap, and it happens a lot to women. And this is something, this kind of the one of the pillars I think of the Thought Leadership Academy is identifying how to get out of that. Um, but for somebody who is new to that concept, thinking, oh, I just need to know more, I just need to learn more, and then talk and teach about that. How why is that a mistake to think that we have to be an expert?

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yes. So thank, yeah, Sarah. And I want to say, you know, right up front that we need experts and in your business, your clients hire you because of your expertise. So 100%, we want your expertise, your degrees, your credentials, your experience, because that's what clients need you for. However, here's what I see happen in the speaking and thought leadership space is that because as women we're socialized to be very capable and competent and to keep focusing on our area of expertise, that we tend to be less willing to take a step out of that into sharing opinions, into bigger ideas, into helping our audiences imagine something bigger. And we get stuck in this X, what I call this expert trap, because we feel like we need to constantly teach and train our audiences in order to provide value to them. And what happens is that we get stuck as commodity speakers, where either we can't charge for our speaking or we get paid very, very little for our speaking. We're doing conference breakout sessions, which is great when you start, but you get to the point where you want something more, you want to have a bigger impact. And if you stay in this commodity speaker, expert presenter stage, you're not going to get to those bigger stages and those bigger paid speaking opportunities, which is where this idea of thought leadership come in, comes in. You have to be willing to help your audience imagine something bigger and integrate your personal storytelling into it in order to elevate yourself as a paid speaker.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Okay. And thank you for clarifying. Yes, we want experts. We want, we don't want, yeah, we're not saying that they're they're wrong. So that thank you for that. Um, could you share an example? And it could be your own or it could be a student of yours where what they sell or the service they provide is different from their thought leadership, just to put some some specifics to this.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

I so I really see for most of our clients their thought leadership runs parallel to their business. So there definitely is a connection to it. And you want it to be a connection because your thought leadership should support what you're doing in your business. And here's an example that comes to mind. So we have a client, and she came to us because last year she delivered a presentation, and this happened to be virtual because we were still in the pandemic to a corporate client who had hired her and you know, paid a good amount of money for her to do it. And she's uh an executive leadership coach. And so she thought the client wanted training materials, a training presentation for their audience, for their employees. And that's what she delivered, because that's what she was used to. Unfortunately, the client was disappointed because they didn't need more information. Their employees were all just saturated with information and tips and techniques and do this and do that. Instead, what the client really wanted was they wanted that thought leadership, they wanted that transformation piece, they wanted to help their employees think about something in a different way. But our client, the woman, the speaker who came to us, she didn't realize that until afterwards. And so that's what a lot of times our clients, the event organizers may not even really understand what they want. But as speakers, it's our role for us to understand what's really going to best serve their audience, your audience.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Okay. And then that brings me to another question. And maybe Zion, you could speak a little bit on this. And Carol, feel free to chime in. Um, getting paid to speak. So just in general, that kind of feels foreign for some of us. And then to even charge more than, you know, maybe a couple hundred dollars feels crazy. And so Diane and I had sat down specifically and mapped out some very specific things around charging and pricing. So, what do you see? Um, I don't know if it's like a mistake to avoid when we're pricing or thinking about charging for our speaking opportunities. Like what, what, I don't know if it's a mindset or a tangible tip, would you offer somebody who that feels really scary to, or they don't even know, like, I don't even know what I would what I would charge. What I what would I put on that?

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, I would say this tip this is a tip and it's mindset. I think that we tend to think of our time as like a per hour commodity, right? So we think, oh, I'm giving a one-hour talk and I can't charge $5,000, $5,000 an hour. But it's not $5,000 an hour. Yes, it's an hour talk, but for me, for example, it's taken me 30 years of working in marketing and then also teaching and then also working with clients to get to the point of being able to create a talk that has an impactful message that's going to change the audience and impact them in a way to take action. It's not just that one hour that someone is paying me for, it's my 30 years of experience and the expertise that I do bring to that and my ability to craft a talk in a way that's going to empower the audience and deliver an impactful message. So I think that some sometimes where speakers get stuck is thinking that it's the, oh, it's just an hour, but it isn't just an hour. It's all the work that goes into it and it's the work that goes into crafting the talk too. And that also comes from all those years of experience. And even if you don't have 30 years of experience, whatever expertise and knowledge and training and education and all the things that brought you to that place, there's value to that. So you have to charge appropriately.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah, I think that was something that oh did I don't think I know that was something that I took away from our time because you do just think, what? Somebody would pay $3,000 for an hour, but it is there's planning and experience that goes into that. Um, in addition to um getting paid to speak, I know that just kind of the foundation for speaking your brand is really focused on bringing women into those keynote roles. And I'd love to hear from both of you on this. But why, I mean, you know, we can I I have an idea of why it's important, but why do you see that it's important that more women are in these decision-making roles um on these keynote stages, leading these boardroom meetings? Um, and your experience and in your opinion, why is that so needed right now?

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah, well, if we take a look at the question. Yes, well, if we take a look at the state of our country and some of the things that are going on, we can clearly see that when women are not in the decision-making room in the room where it happens, things happen that will dramatically impact our lives, you know, but whatever age or stage that we're at. And so, and and here's the reason why we focus a lot on stages, you know, stages and say the media, women, is because visibility and voice and presence is so important because so many things kind of trickle from there or have the domino effect from there. When you see more women keynoting at conferences, important conferences, you see them doing TED Talks, you see them on the TV news, then they get the positions on the boards, then they can run for office because they have that exposure and they have that support to do that. And I have found over my own career that literally the act of public speaking has given me so much confidence and self-assurance to go do bigger things in my life, in my business. So I feel like so much of it starts with just being able to stand on a stage and feel comfortable doing that, sharing your opinions, sharing your message, and then go do bigger things.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Anything else, Diane? I mean that Carol said it great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah, no, I think that that pretty much sums it up. And I I um came up through a very male-dominated industry working in land development. And so it was primarily men in leadership roles. And uh, you know, I do think that there it is hard to envision yourself in a leadership role when all you see are men in leadership roles. And so I think uh, you know, kind of back to this idea of taking ownership of your thought leadership message and owning that and getting that message out there, I think it gives you back some of that control so that you can be sort of the navigator of your own um career growth or business growth or just personal growth in the way that you know that you want to show up. So when you when you position yourself that way, when you're when you're able to see other women doing it, I think you also give permission to other women. When you put yourself out there and you have a message and you deliver it on a stage, other women see that and you're you're helping the kind of the collective of all of us when you do that and younger women coming up behind us.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah, that is so true. Absolutely. So you had mentioned that you um in a former life worked in this in this other industry. And then I also know that you have had your own business and now have the title of lead speaking coach with the speaking your brand brands. Um, and uh how I'm just so curious, um, and I want to hear Carol's take on this too. But for you specifically, what was that decision like to move away from running your own business to maybe jumping on ship with somebody else? Um, and the reason why I specifically wanted to have the two of you on this conversation to or on the podcast to have this conversation, because I know that I've heard from some people where, you know, it can be hard to be doing your own thing and a lot of times by yourself. And um, you can feel like quitting. And sometimes it's like my only option is to keep doing this, heading my head against the wall, or go back to that nine to five. And so I just am so curious what this experience has been like for you. Um, if you're willing to kind of take us through that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, sure. Yeah. So so, well, first of all, uh to be clear, I wouldn't do that for just anyone. Like I wouldn't just close my business and go, you know, work for someone else with just anyone, right? So Carol and I met through teaching at the university. So we started on the exact same day. And so we've known each other for over 13 years, very long time. Now I then started my business. I can't remember the exact year, I think it was 2016, maybe 17, something like that. And so Carol had already started speaking your brand. I was doing my business, doing personal brand coaching, working on LinkedIn strategies for people, and then Carol was doing her business. So I I knew what she did. I listened to the podcast, I knew the type of work she did. And then we actually started, you know, we would share, like I would call Carol with questions. And I obviously I've always been a Carol Cox fan, even before, even before she started her business, because I she was my go-to for political questions, for you know, questions related to history and things that I just never retain information about. So I admired her in that regard. And so then when she started her business, of course, I was following it and learning from it. Then I needed to give a talk. I had already given a couple of talks. They were okay, but I'm like, I know these could be better. So I had been asked to give a talk, I think it was at a women's conference. And I thought, oh, this is like a big stage, lots of people. I need help. So I hired Carol to help me. And of course, in a three-hour VIP day, bing, bang, boom, we had a talk. And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And so that's when, like, really my first exposure to her to the process that she created with the signature talk framework came to be. And then once I understood that, shortly thereafter, Carol said, Hey, would you like to take on some of my clients? Kind of, you know, not as an employee, but like as a consultant, like work with them. Yeah, I'd love to because now I'm a convert, right? I love this process, it's great. So I started doing that. And then, you know, the way it kind of unfolded was that speaking your brand's growing, and so I was still doing my business and teaching. And so Carol asked me, would I like to take on more clients? And I'm like, I'm not sure how I'll do that because I basically have three jobs. Like, how do you manage all that? Right. And it was working great, but I'm like, more clients, it's gonna be hard because I've got my clients, her clients teaching, you know, it's everything. So she said, Yeah, I'll just be honest with you. I'm envisioning that you would close your business and just work in my business. So I mean, I think I maybe thought about it for like half a second because I liked having my own business because I the thing that I enjoyed the most about it was working with the clients. And Carol and I talked about this. You know, she asked me, like, what do you like the most? I said, I just love working with clients. But what I don't love was all the back end business stuff. That stuff is very time consuming. And also, it's not, I yeah, I can do it, but it's not it doesn't light me up. It's not my joy in life, right? To like be doing my accounting and like, I know I don't, that's not fun for me. So she structured it such that yes, we do talk about strategy together and we do brainstorm new ideas and all of that stuff, but I'm not doing like the setting up the the um way that the different things work to get all of our different processes and systems to talk together. And I'm not setting up, you know, the accounting system, I'm not doing all that stuff. I'm mostly I am working with the clients and I am having direct contact, coaching them, doing VIP days, you know, of course, speaking on behalf of speaking your brand. I that's the stuff that really lights me up. So I get to focus on it. And so, and again, I wouldn't have done that just for anyone, but because I had known Carol for so long, we work similarly in that we're very there's not a lot of emotion connected to the business of working together. Like we just, you know, she'll She'll say, Let's do this. I'm like, Great, okay, I'll do that. And then we talk about, hey, what about an idea for this? And then we do that. And so there's not like I never worry about like the emotional, like, oh, what if I mentioned this? And will she be offended or get her feelings hurt? And there's not a lot of that. So that really appealed to me. So I don't know if that answered your question, but that's how it came to be. And that is why the decision was so easy for me.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Yeah, that was that was helpful. And also, I think it'll that we'll come back to that when we start talking about your Enneagram type. Yes, we will. So, Carol, I'm curious for you. Um, I know that there's, I don't want to say, you know, could I maybe control when you have built this thing yourself with from the ground up? It can feel kind of weird to think about, and maybe I'm projecting to think about somebody coming on and hosting podcasts on your podcast or also representing. So what was that decision? Like what kind of was going on in your mind that led you to want to bring someone on like Diane, like a lead speaking coach?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah. Well, okay, so back in 2017 and 2018. So the business was growing and I was getting my calendar was full. Like I was at capacity with the amount of client load that I could handle. And I also ended up, this was like beginning of 2018, I got the flu, like a regular flu, but I hardly ever get the flu. Maybe that was the first time in my life I got the flu. And I was sick for three weeks, you know, had to cancel a bunch of client sessions, reschedule them, and try to find room in my already booked calendar. And so I got to the point where I said, you know, I don't want the entire business to be pinned on me. Like I cannot be the entire business because number one, I can't serve as many women as I want to serve. But number two, I just I can't, you know, this is just not going to work from like uh just a time perspective. And obviously, like Diane said, we knew each other really well. You know, I we had known each other since 2009. This was by you know 2018 at this point. We had worked very closely together. I knew her work ethic, you know, I knew her you know, attention and detail, how excellent you know, she treated her own clients. I saw her speak at speaking engagements here in Orlando. So they're literally it was literally a perfect match. Like we could have gone on match.com or tender or bumble or whatever and look for a like a you know a work partnership, but this would have been like hundreds all the way down. It's a match. So because people ask me all the time, like, how do you find this? I'm like, I don't know. It just, it just we were lucky. I mean, really, like, because it just kind of found us. Now, that being said, I actually don't have a lot of control issues when it comes to other people working with our clients because I feel like I, you know, I know who they are, I vetted them. Like, if they ever get to the point where they're interacting with our clients, I know I know them well enough that I feel a hundred percent confident that everything is fine, unless I hear otherwise, which I never, never do. And so I don't really have that issue of holding on to control. So it's also a great match because Diane loves working with clients, unless so on say the back end of the business building. I'm a serial entrepreneur, I love building and growing businesses. It doesn't really matter to me even what the business is. Give it to me and I will keep iterating to keep testing and keep growing it. Now I love working with our clients and I love what we do, but I love the business building as much as I love working with the clients.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Okay, okay, so this feels like a good time, yeah, to dig in a little bit to your Enneagram types. So, Diane, um, you identify most as a type six. And what I think is so I I want to hear your thoughts on this or what resonates with you. But for for those listening who who may not be as familiar, the six is known sometimes as the troubleshooter, the skeptic. Um, and really one of their superpowers is supporting others, and so it's just really interesting. We can talk a little bit more about that in a minute, but just you know, in your own Enneagram journey, what was it about that six energy that you were thinking, oh my gosh, this is me?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Well, first of all, it's called the loyalist, right? And so that is me. If if I I'm the type of person who if someone doesn't, if I don't immediately I have very good intuition, which probably comes from a like a lifetime of childhood trauma. So I have to, because of that, I have to my brain has to quickly identify is this safe or not, right? And so I'm very I don't think I've ever been wrong. When something tells me someone's off and it's not, I'm like, no, no. I so I don't I don't work that closely or want to have that close of friendships with too many people because if something's not quite right, I'll be superficial, like I'll be nice to them, but I'm like, no, you can't be in my world, right? But when a person I do click with is in my world, I will be loyal to the end, right? And so that it that I immediately identified with that. And then where it describes it here that we thrive on security and stability and try to be try to achieve by being reliable and preparing for potential problems, again, largely based on trauma. I feel I feel most productive and most um like I'm most contributing and then feel better about myself when I am prepared, when I am able to support, and when I am able to feel, when I feel stability and security, that is when I do my best work, which is uh, you know, if we connect it to my whole life, I'm a neat freak. I am I like everything clean and put put away. I'm a I say I'm a putter-awayer, I like things put away, right? Because it gives me that sense of security and safety and stability, and then I'm able to be most productive and do my best work and my best thinking, frankly. So it it impacts so many parts of my life. And I would just say that it for me personally, anyway, and maybe this is true for other sixes, I don't know, but it comes from childhood trauma that I ended up a six, I feel.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Every six that I am close to and and know more about their story, you're absolutely right. There's some sort of childhood trauma. A lot of eights also uh I mean, obviously any type can, but it is that um, you know, contingency planning is the sixes love language, sometimes we'll say, or just you know, planning for the best, but prepared for the worst kind of thing. Um, and yeah, because you've been that's kind of been your kind of go-to strategy. And that's really what what the Enneagram is. It's just shining light on your coping strategies, your defense mechanisms that you have developed since childhood. Um, so we'll we'll come back to some things on that, but I want to talk about Carol and the type five energy. And so you may still be exploring this, or you may, since we talked, we like this there can be no other type other than the type five for me. Well, how are you feeling with the type five known as the investigator, sometimes the expert? Actually, and sometimes they're also called the thought leader, which is interesting. Um, fives and sixes tend to be very much in their head, so lots of like mental processing, feelings, not so much um doing uh more than that. So um that that's interesting, the the peering there. But for the five, the thing that they're really great at is or like one of their superpowers is that insightfulness. And so when I was looking at your speaker descriptions, I think Carol, you had been described as insightful and um captivating. And there was some other word, I was like, that feels very type five vibes. So I'll stop talking. But what has is resonating with with you with that five energy?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

After I did the assessment, read the five, I definitely feel it's me, even though some of the other ones came close in the percentages, but five definitely like I like to figure out how things work, like how the world works. This is why I studied history when I was in college and grad school. Like, why are we here in this present day? What got us here? Hence the past, right? That got us here. And definitely live in the head, you know, very analytical. We like to uh, you know, figure things out, analyze, uh, categorize, things like that. And then I would say, and then kind of the the other side of the five is that they tend not to express their emotions a lot. And again, this is this is my coping strategy, right, from childhood and how I grew up. And so tend not to, and this is something that I've been actively working on the past few years, is to work on that not only in my personal relationships, but in the speaking and the work that I do in the business because it's not my go-to, but I realize that I'm I'm leaving so much out, not just for the people on the other side, but really for myself and developing that aspect of it. But for the fives, like emotions might as be like down like a hundred feet away because we're not gonna touch them ever.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Like, yeah, there is so it's really interesting sometimes when people are deciding between like a three or a five, like threes are actually in this emotional triad where you all are in the the thinking, but threes are so goal oriented that they sometimes like put them aside and they'll feel them, but they will just like I'll process that later. But fives tend to be just completely disconnected um and just very like kind of walled off from that. So that that's an interesting um insight there. Um, and also I'm kind of curious what resonates with the two of you because as working as a two-person team, a four-person team, you know, 10-person team, um, whatever you have, communication and conflict management. Um, I'm doesn't sound like the two of you have a lot of it, if at all, but um just curious about kind of your styles for navigating any time of type of conflict that might arise. Um, and for the sixes, what what they say, um, Diane is that you tend to be in this emotional reactivity category where like you'll feel the emotion and then you'll like want a vent about it. Like, I'm really worried, I'm tired. Okay. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Cause when I when I used to be married, my then husband would say nicely, of course, like, oh, everybody always knows how you're feeling because I was literally I'm hungry, I'm tired, I'm I'm hot, I'm like constantly there's I have to give updates on how I am feeling about everything. So gosh, that is I relate to that.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Yes. Okay. And then like Carol was saying, the tendency for the five, and then also interestingly, with the ones and the threes are all in the same group where with there's a problem, you're kind of like, show me the data, don't give me the drama. Like, let's get to the facts. Does that ring true for you?

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah, and I just I completely, and for me, I don't get ruffled very easily when it comes to a problem. I used to solving problems. So I will, yeah, for me, it's just like, okay, what's the situation? What's the next step that we need to take? Okay, no big deal. Like, we'll do it. And and I and I just feel like that's that's my go-to. Yeah, I definitely don't need the drama and the motions. Yet I also and I've learned this and I understand this that I have to allow the other person who has those feelings to get them out and not rush to solve the problem. This is also part of being a good coach that I've you know, learn and just and let them do that and recognize that the problem can be solved at some point down the road. It doesn't have to be solved in that moment. And I also, you know, I recognize this myself in my own personal relationship. Sometimes I do just want a vent and I don't need a problem fixed in that moment. So I recognize that too. And so Diane and I voxer each other a lot, and especially during like election season, right? When things are really going on, like we'll go back and forth on whatever's frustrating us and we'll have like these like asynchronous conversations, but that allows us to like process how we're feeling in a safe space with each other, and then we can go around go do our work.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

And so if I can share, I want to share an example, a couple of examples. So, like, yes, during the political season, and I I like you said, Sarah, I immediately feel the like, oh my god, he's ruining our world, and like, you know, and I I'm in this emotional state of feeling it, and then we'll vox or Carol, and then she always acknowledges it, but then comes back with some facts, which I that is what I am looking for because I can my emotions. I'm also Italian, so like my emotions can like woo-hoo, like they can get big, right? So I am looking for validation, but also like a a um voice of reason to bring me back to reality and show me why everything's at least I don't know if everything's gonna be okay, but at least why it's not catastrophic, right? So that so I think we balance each other out that way, which is nice. And and a personal example of that is that recently I had had major surgery and then in recovering from that came down with shingles, and in the process of that, also had to move out of my apartment and was trying to buy a house. There was a lot going on, and I was very stressed out, and I was this close to pulling the plug on buying this condo that I'm now living in. And so when I talked to Carol, I talked to several people. She was one of the people who I just appreciated the, and it's not that she didn't show emotion in caring for me, but she didn't get emotional about it because I that is not what I needed. I needed a rational voice of reason because I was very emotional about it. And I because I was it was a lot of stress and pressure at one time, and I was like kind of like almost collapsing under it. I needed that voice of reason to sort it out for me. And so she acknowledged it nicely and kindly and with love, but then brought it back to some asking me some factual questions, which I so appreciated because it it kind of like unlocked the it got me out of that really just mired in the emotion space and brought me back to actually reasonable decision making without making decisions out of fear, right? So I that's why I think we're a good balance because we come at it a little bit differently, each of us.

unknown 36:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Yeah, I thank you for sharing that story. That is such a great example of perfect example. Yeah, that dynamic right there. Um, the other thing I was going to say that, oh, Carol, you had just said it, and I wanted just to bring um awareness to it that you were saying that you're adding in more emotion and then just even in your personal relationships. And so I always like to remind people, you know, you know, listeners, that it's you know, we can change and like we can actually end up not looking like our type at all the more that we go along and develop. And so to say that like I don't think many people imagine a five speaking on a stage in front of 500 people being described as you know, energetic, um, that stereotypically, right? So that I I I think um I'm I'm so thankful that the two of you are the types that you are, and we're having this conversation because um the other question that I had for the two of you next is three, sevens, and eights are in this category. Um, it's called it's like we have different stances, kind of the energy we bring to going what after what we want. Um, those tend to be in corporate America, you'll you'll see a lot of eights and threes, sometimes sevens, because they have this assertive, sometimes known as aggressive energy, going after what they want, not really caring, um, thinking things through, just jumping into it far and fast. Um, sixes are in this category where in this group where, and you you mentioned it a little bit, um, Diane. So anything else that resonates, I'd love to hear that they will tend to kind of check outside themselves with the guidelines, with a trusted mentor, with rules to kind of see like, I'm going after this, like, am I doing this okay? And then fives tend to actually withdraw and they will go inside and check in. So fives doing it, checking in with their heads, fours do it with their emotions. Um, and then nines, we do they're a different breed, and we'll talk about that later. But um, so I would love just to hear like when you are making a decision, like how does like how does that does that feel true for you of what I said? Anything you'd add, anything that's like, oh no, I I do this instead. And also my follow-up question um is having to put yourself out there. And um, and actually, I think this is what I was kind of trying to get at. I I lost for my thought for a second, ladies. I know you know how that goes, but this is where I really wanted to take this. Okay, is um, you know, we think we have to be a certain way when we're speaking on a stage or running a business, but we can have these other energies, these other tendencies that don't always have to be so, you know, aggressive. How have you seen kind of your what we're talking about here today? I know you're not Enneagram experts, but just kind of that different energy show up in being able to speak on a stage, to lead, you know, Carol, this company, and you know, Diane, I know you lead a classroom. I know you're the lead coach. Um, outside of always having to be kind of that stereotypical, I call it like a dude leader. Um, you know what I mean? I don't know how to describe that, but it's like extreme ownership where you know, where nobody's in the trenches. Um, we're just we're with people. Um, so it I don't know who wants to go first or just speak on that.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Well, it kind of sounds also, Sarah, a little bit like being an introvert for versus an extrovert. And I think a lot of people have the perception that in order to be a great public speaker, or most speakers are extroverts. And I know I'm an introvert, Diane's an introvert. I would say about half of our clients, we do informal polling with them, about half of them are introverts, half of them are extroverts. And as an introvert, I am a very keen observer, you know, of people and situations, again, developing that when I was very young. And so I feel like you know, part of this Enneagram Five for me, the investigator, is that I do observe, collect information, but then I don't don't stop there. I see, okay, what are the trends? What are the things that, and this is thought leadership, what are the things that my audience needs to know? Podcast audience, what are the things that my clients need to know? And I very much it generally comes from within me, from my own thought process and synthesizing all of these things that I'm learning and observing. I don't get it from outside sources, it really comes from within me, and then I share it with them. And so I'm developing that, and that's what I do also with my public speaking topics. So I would say for you know, for those of you listening, whether it's as an entrepreneur or as a speaker, you can, whatever Enneagram type you are, you can take the the aspects of it that the strengths aspect of it and definitely incorporate that into your speaking content and your speaking style. So well said.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

I'm always looking for safety and security. And one might think, well, it's not very safe and secure to put yourself in front of 600 people on a stage. But I think I think what has driven me to that, well, part of it is that I did work in a male dominated industry where I kind of just had enough of that. And I I was I had enough of not having a voice and you know, not being respected and all the things, right? And so also I think that because as a six, like protecting myself and creating a safe space and feeling safety and security, I feel that by having a voice, I'm actually creating that for myself rather than having to wait for someone else to create a safe space for me, right? So it's it's really like taking control and and it's yeah, is it hard? Yes. Was it hard at first to put myself on a stage? Sure. But the benefit of it was the control that I had. So I'm I've actually taken charge of the safety and security for myself by having a voice. Byproduct of that is that it then, you know, champions a cause or a message, but also models it for other women and all those things. But, you know, if I'm going back to my Enneagram six, I mean, that is, I think, what where that comes from.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

As we start to wrap this up, I have um one more question for both of you. I'm gonna ask it a little bit different for the two of you, but there's also these things. I don't know if you guys are for or ladies are familiar with um like the arrows. When we talk about we there's wings, arrows, all these type of groupings. And the arrows have to do with um where you like after you've tapped out your own coping mechanisms and defense strategies, you will make a lateral move like in stress to a specific number and kind of take on their stress quality. So in those times, you don't always look like you're type. This the reverse is true, though, as well, where you in when you're really developing their specific pieces and really a both of them that you can bring in to really kind of complete, not even complete, but just really enhance what you're already working with. And so it's interesting, Carol, because for the type five, their growth arrow is the eight, which is the most energetic, most assertive type, most bold, decisive number of all of them. Um, a lot of times people experience eights as angry and they think they're just passionate. Um, and but that can really be a compliment to somebody with that type five, like you were saying, more introverted energy where you're withdrawn, because that brings. It out in you. When did I guess how did that start happening for you? For those of us who it feels like, oh my gosh, I can't imagine speaking on public television, or I can't imagine speaking on a stage in front of 500, kind of all of us kind of bringing that eight bold big energy to a stage or to a room. How could we start thinking? Like, how did you do it? What advice would you have for somebody else who's thinking like, oh, I that that's never me. That could never be me.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

I don't know how helpful this will be when I just say yes and I do it. Really, I was, you know, I was chairperson of the Democratic Party here. The TV news was like, Oh, you have a title, you're now the chairperson of the Democratic Party. Come on the news and let's talk politics. And I just said, sure. Where where and when do I need to be? And then I just showed up and I did it. And I was scared to death for sure. And I felt super intimidated. And I just kept doing it. I remember in college, I was in the model United Nations Club. And so we had I remember the first meeting I went to as a freshman in college there. And so I went up and then we had to like give like little practice speeches. So I just went up to the podium, gave my little speech, and said, I don't know. I just I know this that's that's why this is not that helpful. Like I literally just do it.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

Okay. Can I just tell you literally every eight that I ask any advice to, they literally just say, just do it. I just do it. So this, so you got you got you're channeling that. Yeah. Okay.

unknown 45:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:29

Um, Diane, so I'm gonna ask you this a little bit differently. Um, the and and I see this a lot. There are a lot of sixes in in my world. And in a stressful situation, after they've kind of tapped out their own coping mechanisms, they will move to the stress tendencies of a type three, which have a lot of workaholic tendencies, um, kind of getting value from their title or amount of money or a job or um, and just feeling like, who am I if I'm sitting still? I'm nobody, so I need to keep moving. Um, have you experienced that? And how are you either have you or are you working through not being a human doing and and meeting a human being?

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Oh my gosh, that's a good question. So yes, I I I do in the past I have been very much a workaholic. I've gotten very a lot better about that. However, um, I think it's a little bit harder when you really love the work that you do to not be a workaholic because you just it doesn't feel like work and you're just like, oh my god, the whole day is gone, and but I it's just so much fun, right? Um but I think that um, you know, I obviously I identify that with that for sure. And it I again it goes back to childhood and like you know, feeling like I had to prove myself, prove that I was smart, prove that I, you know, prove all these things. And so it is like my tendency to just you know work as much as humanly possible and do the things, right? And do them very well. Um the way that I manage that, well, one thing I can say is that Carol is very good. In fact, just had a message from her today, very good about reminding me that because sometimes I I perceive it myself as like I know I'm working hard, but sometimes in my own mind, I think I could do more. I'm not doing enough. And I think because it's Carol, like I want it's not some corporate unknown entity, right? It's Carol. It's I'm like, oh my god, I want to do the best, right? So I have to do this, and which is great, but then she has to remind me it's like a checks and balances, remind me, and I know you're doing all these calls, like take take us, take a breather, like give yourself some space, take take a week off, like you know, it so it I think it helps that she's reminding me of that. I have gotten better at it because I recognize that because my corporate job almost killed me, like I don't want that to happen. So I've recognized how important giving myself space is. One thing that I have done is to I have non-negotiables and they are sleep and exercise. They're non-negotiables, so they're on my calendar. Like I go to bed and wake up pretty much at the same time every day, weekend, weekday, doesn't matter. I don't stay up late because I'm not a nice person when I don't get sleep. So go to bed. So I have, and then I walk every day, I exercise every single day. So I they're just non-negotiables because they're what allow me to be able to be a six and be productive and you know do all that stuff. And so that's kind of how how I've managed that tendency to want to go into overwork and workaholic and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Thank you for for being open about that and sharing.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Um, as we start to wrap this up, I have a couple of rapid fire questions. Oh fine. But I would love to hear um just a little bit about the Thought Leadership Academy. Like what should people know about it? And when can people join in if that's something that they want to learn a little bit more about?

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Yeah, well, Sarah, well, oh, thank you so much for asking. And you are one of our seller graduates of the Thought Leader Academy. You graduated in early May, and we I know that we both so enjoy getting to know you better during the four months that you were in the program and see that you were such an action taker. I don't know if that's part of being an Ennegram 7 that you are, but you you're so you're such just such a great job of implementing what you were learning along the way, you know, asking great questions, doing the work, like being willing to be coached, because not everyone is being willing is willing to be coached and kind of to learn along the way and to see you grow in your own, not just in your speaking abilities, but in your pricing and you know, and how you you think about speaking as a revenue stream in your business as well. So I just want to say, you know, thank you so much for for going through the program. And so for those of you listening, if you are a women entrepreneur or professional and you enjoy public speaking, you can still get a little butterflies and nervousness. That's all right. But you enjoy public speaking, you want to do it more, you want to get better results from the speaking that you're doing. I definitely invite you to check out the Thought Leader Academy. All the details are at speakingyourbrand.com slash academy. We are in ongoing enrollment, so you can apply and then we'll figure out what is the best start time for you. And we kind of have like mini start dates throughout the year, but really you can join when is the best fit for what you have going on.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Okay, yes. And I have a whole episode with Diane about my love for Thought Leadership Academy that will absolutely link to here. Um, I just want to say, you know, I think the the takeaway or one of the takeaways here is, you know, people are always like, it's fun to learn about the Enneagram. It's fun to talk about it at a party and like, oh, I'm I'm the loyalist or you know, whatever the type. Um, and then the the the question after, like, how do I find my type is usually like, okay, like, but what do I do with it? Like, how do I actually use this? And so just today, even uh in this conversation, just you know, working better with your team or finding potential teammates. And it's not to judge them, I think it's more to open up an effective conversation and putting language to things and asking questions like I realize I do this, I know you do this, like how would this work together kind of thing? So I see that being a use for understanding your type and and somebody else's, and even if you don't know their type, just you know, having some additional questions to ask outside of you know some of the typical ones you you might be thinking of. So I appreciate you both sharing all that you did and being so open. Um, one of the things that this group loves, and I know so many people do, we are our Amazon book lists are a mile long, but is there a book that has made an impact on your life that you would recommend to the listeners?

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Okay, great question. And what's funny is that when I was asked this question a couple of years ago in an article that was written about me, the two books I listed were written by men. And I didn't realize that until after the fact. And of course, you know, we're such a big proponent of choosing women's voices and making sure that the books that we're reading, you know, et cetera, are by women. So here are the are the ones that come to mind that have really made an impact on me and that I have read more than once. The first one is called The Soul of Money by Lynn Twist. That one is really great about kind of like understanding money like for yourself, but under also in our capitalist system that we're in, whether we like it or not, how can we understand like how to use money for good in what we're doing as we're growing our businesses? So that's one. And the other one that that I read that kind of had a big impact is called um The Art of Gathering, How We Meet and Why It Matters by Priya Parker. And it's really about how to make sure that when you are creating events, virtual in-person, weddings, conferences, client retreats, whatever it happens to be, that you're very intentional from beginning to end because you and this is what we do as speakers is that we're helping to co-create that experience with the audience. And the same thing when you're creating an event. So that's the other one, the art of gathering.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Okay, those are two really good ones. Before you go, Diane, I just want to say, um, Carol, this was you were the first person that I heard this from. And then I think you might have had a conversation with a guest recently about looking at your podcast and your bookshelf and who you're following on social media. And it is really interesting, and even who you're quoting, like I was my mind was blown at I'm not quoting any women. And here I am saying this. And then when I was looking at my podcast, it was like Tim Ferris, Gary V, um, you know, Brene Brown's always in there. I think she's the staple woman for most of those lists, but um, that that's a very actionable step. I think we can all take and just kind of diversifying our perspective and outlook. And I I love that you had shared that. And I'm always thinking about it now. Um, Diane, what about you? What are what's what would you recommend for our book?

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yes, so I'll give you two as well. Um, one is, I guess, could be a little bit more business-y, but it's it's by Brene Brown. It's called Braving the Wilder Wilderness. Braving the Wilderness, if I could say it. Um, I just love her. I that particular book, I feel she's very, there's like a very powerful message in it, and it's very um, it's not like sugar coated, and I love that about her. So I would highly recommend that. The other book I love is not a business book, however, it it had a huge impact me, uh, impact on me from the standpoint of um doing hard things and the fact that you can change, like if there's something that you want to become, you can become it. And it's called um Wild by Cheryl Strade. And I'm sure a lot of people have probably seen the movie. Highly movie was fine. I highly recommend you read the book because the movie was slightly different from the book, and the book that book brought me to tears. And when it was over, I was kind of angry that it was done because it was so good and it was so meaningful to me. And I mean, I the story in the story, she was a drug addict. I can't relate to that, however, just the things she experienced and the change she went through, and by you know, doing something really hard and really challenging, I love that message. So highly recommend.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Okay, and the the kind of book that you can't put down or like are mad that it's over, like those are the best ones.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

So good.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

Okay, two more rapid fire questions. Um, what is a resource, a tool, a piece of software, like something that is making your life easier in running a business, sharing your voice on social media or wherever you're sharing it. What would you recommend?

SPEAKER_01 55:59

I have a very hard time delegating, not because I don't trust the people on the other end, is because I'm like, uh, it's just so much quicker and easier if I just do this myself and trying to like figure out how to teach someone else how to do it, which obviously just keeps me in my bottleneck. So I love Loom because now anytime I go to do something, I just click record on Loom, I record exactly what I'm doing, and then I send it off to whoever would need to know how to do this in the future. And that is has been the best kind of delegation and training tool that I have found.

SPEAKER_03 56:30

Genius. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Absolutely. I love Voxer because I love the fact that we can get quick answers to things, especially if it's sometimes sometimes I'm in the middle of something and I'm like, oh, I need this answer like right away. And so I'll message Carol. And so I just love that as a communication tool.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

I am a Voxer fan too. Oh my gosh, I love it so much. Total verbal processor here. So it's very helpful. Um, okay. Last question is um, there's a lot of uh you know, talk and advice for how to live your best life. Oh, I'm my best self, mom, my best life. And that means I know different things to different people. So I'm just curious what living your best life looks like for the two of you.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Oh my gosh, they're like, way to go deep. Like with around. Wait, what?

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Oh, Diane, what does anything come to mind? Um, well, I mean, I know this might sound kind of like simplistic, but I will say that taking care of my health and being aware. I know I know, you know, I'm saying this with understanding that I am, of course, privileged and live in a in a you know way and I have a good job and everything, and I can afford to do these things. But maybe that speaks to our system and healthcare needs to be uh changed for our country. However, from a personal standpoint, but just getting outside and walking and getting enough sleep, those things to me have they ch they change how I handle challenges, they change how I look at uh situations, they change how I interact with people, they're just so important. So huge advocate of taking care of yourself because, like they say, put your mask on first and then you can help the other person, right? That's me putting my mask on first.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

Yeah, and for sure. And this is something Diane and I have in common, is we're very health conscious for sure. So then the so what comes to mind, this is very much my five investigator, is that I live 99.9% of my life in my own head, and I have a grand time in there. Like it's like it's fabulous. Like I'm my own best company. Yet if I look back at my life, I recognize that living my best life is really about having experiences, whether it's travel, time with friends and family, going to concerts, going, you know, whatever it happens to be. And I I tend to be fine at home in my own head, but I recognize that I kind of have, and this is where my husband comes in because he's very much the opposite, and he's the one who like pulls like pulls me out of the house to do stuff.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

You know, I just realized so I'm as a seven, we have five, six, seven, all three of us are in that head center. So we got we got some headache because I I love a good, you know, in my head, all the ideas, all the possibilities. Like I just love brainstorming. Um, so I feel that, Carol. Um, well, listen, I appreciate the two of you so very much um talking, uh, just taking the time to talk with me and then just being open about something so intimate as your personality um and what resonated. So this was a lot of fun. Anything else that you would like to say that I haven't asked you or we haven't talked about to make this episode feel complete? You're a fantastic interviewer, Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Thank you so much for these great questions and thank you for you know having us on to talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Yeah, and it was fun too. I think it's I think it's fun to look at how not only how those things show up, how the Enneagram things show up in my life, but also, you know, that you can you can understand it. And then, you know, obviously I don't want to be stuck in fear. So there are things I can do about that, right? So I like I like the idea of understanding it and then seeing I like um I like to be an action taker and I like to, it's like a game. Like, how can I outsmart what my tendencies are and force myself to do the things I know that are good for me that I might not want to do because I'm stuck in like being safe, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's yeah, that's what what it is. It's just like how can how can we tell ourselves a different story, trick ourselves into believing something else? So um, well, I appreciate you both. We'll have um links and all that kind of stuff to where they can connect with you. I know both of you are big on LinkedIn, so um we'll connect them there. Um it's both of your names, right? Diane Diaz LinkedIn, Carol Cox, LinkedIn, yeah, very straightforward. Um, and then how to learn more about the Thought Leadership Academy. So I appreciate you, ladies. Thank you, Sarah.