SPEAKER_03 0:02

You are listening to the Enneagram and the Inside School of Understanding People at work, including yourself, usually talking about the Enneagrams, sometimes talking about other resources and methods, but always bringing value and having fun along the way. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, sir, but Enneagram coach, speaker, and workshop facilitator. And I cannot wait to see you inside. When it comes to getting more done and being more productive, there is no shortages of strategies and tips and tricks and hacks. And I'm going to guess that a lot of us have tried a lot of those hacks. Some maybe with success, a lot probably without so much success. But I'm going to guess that almost none of us have had tree bathing on our list for how to be more productive. Typically, when we think of that, we're thinking, okay, how can I get more done? What can I do more of? Maybe what can I delegate or automate? But very rarely are we thinking, hmm, how can I get outdoors and take a leisure stroll? My guest today is Pam Cho. She runs a company called Trek Executive Coaching, and she is going to talk to us about the benefits of actually stepping away from our computers, stepping away from the office, and getting out into the outdoors, specifically among the trees and the benefits and also the science behind how that can help us be more productive, how that can help us be a better leader, how it can help us be a better business owner. And so this is a really fun and relaxing conversation. I'm actually recording this intro outdoors, listening to the birds, the trees rustle, the insects make their noises. Got a couple of airplanes flying over as well. I don't know if you can hear those, but um, I really enjoyed this conversation. Like I said, it was informative, relaxing, and also very inspirational to get outside more. Pam is also joining us as an Enneagram type two, so you'll get to hear about her individual experience with that type two energy, the strengths that she sees that she's brought to her company as a business owner, as a leader, to a team and clients, also some of the challenges that she's had to be aware of and work through. So, regardless of your Enneagram type, I know you're gonna get so much out of this one. So enjoy this conversation with Pam Chill. I got the opportunity to be at Pam's house, actually, which is very rare for any podcast um guests. I've gotten to meet me be in your home. Um we met at an event in Cincinnati, which is where Pam is based out of, um, called Power to Pursue. And she had hosted some of the sponsors in her beautiful home and got to meet her sweet dog and we put out a fire. So we go way back. We can we can say that now.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Um well, Pam, but just to kind of set the stage for the conversation, would you be willing to share a little bit about what um your company, Trek Coaching, does, how you help and who you help?

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Sure. So my um background is in corporate communications. I spent almost 20 years in the corporate arena. And then 13 years ago, I changed careers. I went back to school. I went to Miami and Case Western and reserved and um earned certifications in executive coaching. And so in 2009 was when I launched my own executive coaching firm called Trek Executive Coaching. So I have been doing this full-time for 13 years. Um, I spend um most of my time doing one-on-one coaching with mid to senior level executives. And then I also do small group coaching with young professionals or early career professionals with a program called Trek Leadership Cafe, where we meet in area coffee shops and I teach basic leadership skills. And then lastly, and we'll talk a little bit more about this, but um earlier this year, I launched my latest offering, which is Trek Coaching Outdoors, um, where clients that want to conduct their coaching session while walking outside or sitting outside, that's also an option now. So we'll talk a little bit more about that.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Yes, it's so fun. Okay, so I know that you also spent about 15 years in the corporate space. Um, and then you know, you're saying you made the transition and started your own company. What was the motivation behind that? Or what allowed you to kind of make that leap? Because that can be scary. That can be kind of the unknown. You probably had a safe, secure paycheck, job title. Um, and then to leave that and walk into the unknown, I know is something that not everybody can do.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

You know, um, I actually started contemplating um running my own business in 2008 during the financial crisis. And I was very fortunate to work with um a wonderful career coach on the West Coast by the name of Mark James. And um, I was all set to go back into my next corporate communications position when he said to me, I'd really like for you to spend 60 days or so just exploring some other potential options. And so I had some assignments, and one of them was to attend one event a week. And I read that Miami was starting an executive coaching certification program and they were having an information night. Well, I went to information night and I ended up putting my deposit down that night on executive coaching training. And it was just really interesting how it spoke to me, having been in corporate, and then learned about this um profession that would give me the tools and some different ways of approaching challenges that we have in the workplace. And so thinking about how I could work with executives and different companies and helping them be successful. So, with my background in corporate, I can be um sympathetic, empathetic, understanding because I've been there and I've I've been in their shoes. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

I'm I'm kind of putting you on the spot with this, but I know that there are a lot of people who think about this and they will will think and think. And I've I probably thought about it for five years before I I made my leap. Is there any words of wisdom or any specific lesson learned that you would offer to somebody, maybe in in the shoes that you were in, maybe in 2008, Pam, um, kind of in that situation thinking about starting something new?

SPEAKER_02 6:38

You know, um, my career coach asked me a question that really changed the game for me. And he said to me, Um, I want you to look for an opportunity that's out there, um, a need that's out there that you are uniquely qualified to fill. And so I felt like, you know, I knew there was a need in um in the corporate world to help executives. And I felt as though kind of my personality, my background, and having worked and supported as an NAGRA, um, other uh executives, that um my values and my interests were aligned. And uh I was building on my previous career with a new way of doing it. So, you know, from day one, as soon as I went to information night, I was hooked. I was super passionate about it. And I was also very fortunate to have a background in communications and marketing where I knew how to start building the business and uh getting the word out. So um it's been fabulous, and I hope to be doing this for a while.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Yeah, if I can, I want to ask. Um, this is the season, kind of the theme is leadership. And you had mentioned you felt you saw that there was a need for executives um in those leadership roles. What do you see right now as being one of the biggest challenges or just a challenge that leaders in these companies are facing?

SPEAKER_02 8:16

You know, there are a lot of challenges and there are new challenges that have come up in the last couple of years with the with the pandemic. And I think trying to figure out a way to get the work done, but also take care of the people that make it happen. And you, you know, the the needs of the of people at work right now are so much different than they were a couple of years ago. And so I would say being able to connect and support your people is the number one priority in order to keep them productive and to keep them engaged. So having conversations with them to find out where the challenges are, how can the manager or the company support them? And also, where are the opportunities? I think this is also a great time to be exploring other potential positions or um projects that people can be working on that might help to get them out of this sort of rut that a lot of people have found themselves in over the last couple of years.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

You know, I love what you just said about just asking your employees, your team members. And I think that is also very applicable for those of us who are in more of an entrepreneurial position where we just have the conversation of your clients because sometimes it's you know, an offer doesn't land. Well, it's follow up and find out what exactly that need is and how you can better understand it. So rather than try and think and think and think about it, which I know some of us can do, just reach out and have that conversation. So I love that you said that. Okay, so I heard a lot of connectedness, supporting your team, which are just lighting off Enneagram 2 vibes all over the place. So I'd love just to hear a little bit about because I I'm assuming, you know, maybe maybe not Enneagram expert, but you are very familiar with the Enneagram, Enneagram enthusiast, perhaps. Um and so that's why I was excited to talk to you. What about the Enneagram 2? Which for those of you who are listening and aren't as familiar, this is the type that is striving to feel connected and appreciated, loved, and wanted. Um, what about that two energy really resonated with you? How did you know that you were a type 2?

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Uh, you know, it's interesting. I took the assessment um after I started my coaching practice, I did not have this insight when I was working in corporate. And I really wish that I had had this earlier in my career. Um so when I took it, when I took the assessment, I realized it was spot on. I mean, every word in the report spoke to me, and I knew this is exactly who I was. There was no doubt that I was type two, both professionally and personally. Uh, I felt I had been successful because of the traits of the type two. Being in corporate communications, a lot of time you are supporting other people by helping them with whether it's media training, speech writing, getting them ready for a meeting, whatever it is. Um, I've never had a problem kind of being the number two person and not being in the spotlight. And yet there were also some things that I learned, you know, some big light bulbs that went off when I read that report about the positive attributes, but also the things that I have to watch out for.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Would you be willing to share one of those things that you maybe and maybe you've grown through it, but one of those things that you've had to watch out for?

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Sure. So um there are a couple things. I think the first and the most important one for me was learning about the importance of self-care and setting boundaries, because that's two. Um, in terms of self-care, you know, making sure that I was tapping into my needs and figuring it out, figuring out what it is that I needed, whether it was to spend less time with friends and more time going to the gym or taking a walk or walking my dog. Um, so that was that I found is really important to me. And the second thing is setting boundaries and being clear with expectations with other people and making sure that up front that I'm aligned and the other person or the other people are aligned as to what my role is going to be. Because with a type two, we can easily get into that um scope creep where you know you're 20% responsible and all of a sudden you're 40 and you find yourself you're 100% possible, you know, responsible for this for this project. Um, and I say a third one is because the two likes to help and seeks out opportunities to help other people, um, that you have to be careful that you're not interjecting yourself uh into somebody else's space and offering help when they really don't want help or they really don't want advice. So making sure that I keep that um, you know, in in perspective has been has been really helpful.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Okay, so I there was um so last season was about the kind of a focus on entrepreneurship. And there was um a woman that was also identified as a type two. And so we had a conversation around boundaries and how she was answering emails at 11 o'clock at night, and kind of like you said, with the scope of some of her projects, she was, you know, doing way more than what was said in the contract. I'm curious because in theory, that sounds set set stronger boundaries. And for some people, it's like, nope, I'm not doing that, or I'm just not gonna answer it. But I know for others, you know, that's maybe easier said than done. Would you be willing to share an example or is there an example that comes to mind of like a boundary you have with your within your own business, whether it's like set working hours or just anything that comes to mind that we might be able to learn from?

SPEAKER_02 14:43

So, you know, I think when you when you first start your own business, uh, it's very natural to work before nine o'clock and after five o'clock and on the weekends. It's just, at least for me, it's just part of the part of the uh startup process. Then you start to realize that you can't always have your foot on the gas pedal. And at some point you have to take it off. And so I started realizing about the importance of uh not working evenings, not working on the weekends. And I also, you know, in in my coaching practice, I talk with my clients about setting boundaries and talk with them about getting their team to agree that after seven o'clock, no one sends any emails. You know, they use the um the Outlook program where they can set it up to be delivered the next morning. Um, you know, they send text messages if if there's an emergency. So I can't really talk to my clients about not sending emails after seven o'clock and then send them something at 8 p.m. So I try to walk the talk. Am I perfect? No, you know, I I blow those rules all the time, but I'm constantly aware of them. And I would say um, you know, deciding how late in the day you're gonna work, are you gonna work on the the weekends uh is important.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

I love the the send later feature. Um, I use it in Google. I started using it recently for that same reason because it gives me anxiety when I get like a 10 o'clock email. And I know it's just like when you have time, especially, you know, just you know, with if you're working multiple jobs, family, you know, all kinds of things. Um, but I was like, wow, I, you know, I gotta do better about this. So I love that send later. Go ahead and write it, get it off your to-do list, and then just schedule it for later.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

You know, I was um talking to somebody uh about this exact topic, and um we were talking about the fact that um when a manager sends an email at nine o'clock at night saying, Don't worry about getting back to me tonight. Uh, you know, we can cover this in the morning. That person still receives it and feels an obligation and is going to think about it through the night until the next morning. So just don't send any sort of communication until the next morning. Yeah. Yeah. I've got other Sarah, I've got one other quick tip around this. Yeah, please. I have a client who has um two little girls, and I think there were seven and nine at the time. And they're always complaining that when he would get home at like six o'clock, he would walk in the door on his phone. He'd stay on his phone. You know, the little girls wanted to say hi and interact with them. And then right after dinner, he would be right back on his phone. So what we did was um he said that he would go, he would designate 6 to 8 p.m. every night, Monday through Friday, that he would not be on his phone. He let his team know about it. It also then gave them permission not to use their phone from six to eight to be present with their family. But when he walked in the door, his youngest daughter would take the phone from him, put it in the kitchen drawer, and then at eight o'clock, the daughter would get the phone and give it back to him at eight. And that way he's sending a message that you, my daughter, are important to me. My family is important to me, and I'm gonna be with you. I'm gonna be present from six to eight. So just a little tip, it worked beautifully for that family.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

I absolutely love that. And that's such a reminder. I think we can all just, you know, hear it again. And that, you know, sometimes we say we have priorities and things are important to them, but really it's your actions that show you what really is the priority. And we we sometimes kind of get our wires crossed and kind of get things upside down. So I I love that. I absolutely love that idea. Um, something else I wanted to ask you about was so I know that you have learned, gotten some really interesting and helpful insight about yourself. And I'm also curious about how understanding this type two energy about you and those things that show up have helped you in relationships with clients, teammates, um at home, with friends, anything you're willing to share, would love to hear about.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Sure. Well, I'm laughing because um I was being married six years ago, and um my husband realized uh early on in our um in our relationship that I'm a coach and I use assessments and so we were talking about different styles and different types. Well, my husband is very different from me. Um, he's not taken the formal assessment, but I believe that my husband is a seven. And so uh, you know, we talked early on about kind of my energy level and how much time I wanted to spend out socializing, going to parties, entertaining, and that sort of thing. And so it kind of goes back to expectations and sort of explaining what it is that you need. I love to do that stuff, but I also know that I'm gonna need time later that night or the next day to recharge my batteries and then I'll show up and I'll be a good wife or I'll be a good stepmom. Um, so it's just this insight is applicable in in really every facet of my life. And I think once you go through this and and you take it, you you realize um the impact. So I use this all the time, you know, with with my family. Um, again, I being the helper, the giver, you know, wanting to take care of my family. I need to watch that I don't get too involved or that I don't overstep my my bounds. I also know with clients and with my business that yes, I deliver a very high level of customer service, but at some point it becomes unhealthy. And so you, you know, um, sometimes good is enough. There are certain times that I need to deliver great customer service. For the most part, good customer service is okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Yeah, yeah. Um, it's like, yeah, what is it? Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Like ice, you know, ice cream is amazing. But if you eat, you know, two cartons, yeah, it becomes like um something else that I'm curious about. Um, actually kind of two questions about this. But one is you had mentioned that you have been historically okay with kind of being the guide, the supporter behind the scenes, behind the throne. I think I've heard it called before too, for that type too. Um, not necessarily being in the spotlight. But sometimes, whether it's a leader in a corporation or Or an entrepreneur leading their own business, it does require stepping into the spotlight, which can be scary for everybody, right? Um, but especially that two who was tends just to naturally gravitate to being behind the scenes. I know you have stepped into the spotlight in different areas, leading your own company. What has that been like? Is that have you noticed like you really had to work on it, or has it just been more natural as your business has grown?

SPEAKER_02 22:30

You know, um it can be terrifying and it can be empowering. And I would say, especially, you know, early on, even though, you know, I did media training and got other people ready to be in front of the camera, but that wasn't something in terms of being in front of the camera that I felt like I was super successful at. So I actually enrolled in some programs that um gave me an opportunity to train, to be in front of a camera, to wind it back, to do it again, to have it critiqued and do it again. And, you know, the more that you do this, um, the easier that it becomes. But there's no doubt that for I'd say most people, getting in front of a group, getting in front of a microphone can be really terrifying. The flip side of it is that, you know, 99% of the people that do get in front of a camera or do get behind a microphone do a really good job. And, you know, uh other people see ourselves differently than we see ourselves. And so, you know, people are always surprised at how good they look, you know, when um I'm working with somebody and uh rolling it back. So I think uh it's a matter of just giving yourself permission to step out, step outside that safety box, just try it, put your big toe in, then put your second toe in. And eventually you'll find that your confidence grows as you give yourself permission to just to try it.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

So good. Because nobody comes out, you know, being born, you know, being able to be a natural. And so sometimes speaking comes easier, but especially like in, you know, LinkedIn Live or you know, getting up in front of a room, being a speech, giving a speech. I mean, there's all kinds of um skills that go into that that just like you said, take time and practice is the only way to get better at them. That's right. Um, the other question I wanted to ask you about is around leadership. And there tends to be kind of the stereotypical image of what a leader is. And um on the Enneagram, I would say a lot of three energy. They they tend to be pretty natural leaders, maybe sometimes eight, kind of that boss in charge, direct, bold energy. And so sometimes we can think that that's what a leader looks like. I have to be, you know, maybe loud, I have to be okay in the spotlight. And there's all kinds of different ways to lead. Um, I'm curious, how would you describe your leadership style? And um, I love what you had said. You had said earlier, you feel like it you've actually been really successful in being that kind of supporting role, understanding what people need and helping them get there. And that very much, you know, is a form of leadership. But just out of curiosity, how would you describe your leadership style?

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Well, I think, you know, one thing I want to say before I jump into my style is that any Enneagram type can be a really effective, successful leader. And it's just important to get to know yourself and your style, what your motivators are, what your stressors are, and also learn how to read other people and learn what their needs are, um, learn how to, as I say, speak their, speak their language. Because what leadership comes down to is being successful and being to and being able to get work done through other people, being able to get other people to follow you that want to work for you, that want to help you move the project, the department, or the company forward. And so as a two, you know, twos are, I'd say, just they're natural, we're naturally gifted to be able to develop relationships with people pretty quickly and pretty easily. And I think, you know, twos can quickly also uh create that safe space, that environment that makes people feel supported. Uh, I think people that have worked for me feel like I've had their back. Um, they've also felt like I have worked hard to develop them as professionals, giving them opportunities to learn with other people or being able to share my learnings. So, you know, I mean before I did the anagram, all I knew was to show up and be myself and be the best that I could. But I think the most important thing that I did intuitively that I didn't even know was my ability to take care of the people that worked for me. They knew that I cared about them. And so I showed it in, you know, remembering their birthday. I knew their families' names. Um, and they knew that I wanted them to be successful.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Yeah, yeah. Like who wouldn't want to follow somebody like that? Yeah. So I know that you had mentioned your new um outdoor program, helping leaders kind of um use the benefits of nature. And I would love to get into that a little bit. Um, would you would you expand on what you are doing right now with this new program?

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Sure. So last year, um at that point, I had been doing my executive coaching from home here in this room from seven in the morning until six or seven o'clock at night, because I had clients on the East Coast. And during the pandemic, I became very busy and people were really looking for help. So the good news was um in 2020, 2019, um, I had really good years business-wise. But then in in in February of 2021, it was early in the morning. I go outside on my patio every morning with a cup of coffee, and it's it's it's my quiet time. And it was out there, and I just I could tell that I was starting to hit a wall, and I was concerned about bringing my best self to my clients and being able to support them in the way in which they needed to be supported. And so at that point, you know, all I knew were these four walls and taking my dog for a walk. And um, I really did hit a wall, and I could I could feel some anxiety, some depression from, you know, just the lack of connection with other people starting to set in. And I thought, I've got to find a different way to do this. Well, four years ago, I had taken a class called Forest Bathing out at the Cincinnati Nature Center, and it is a three-hour guided walk. It's a very slow walk, and it's a meditative type walk that basically helps you drop from your head into the rest of your body, and it awakens your other senses, your sense of hearing, smell, touch, sight. And so uh it stops the swirling in your in your head. And I thought, and and at the end of that program, I felt fabulous. I had so much energy, so much clarity. And I thought, well, maybe I could ask my clients if they'd want to go outside and find a park or a sidewalk and have our conversations outside. So the first woman that I called, she worked for a company here in Cincinnati, and I was coaching her to help her set boundaries because she was working a lot of hours. She had a very high level stress in her job, and she had recently had a couple of serious medical conditions that she told me the doctor told her were stress-induced. And so she had to find a way to relieve stress. So I asked her if she would like to go up to a park that has a one-mile loop around a lake. Would you like to do your coaching session just walking around the lake? And she said, I would love that. And so we took off and we were quiet for the first few minutes, and I could tell she was just starting to decompress just as we were walking. And there were ducks on the lake, there were some kids playing. And then finally, uh, you know, after like 15 or 20 minutes, I started to ask her a couple questions and we got into the coaching, and then we stopped where there were some cattails coming out of the water and the sun was coming down, and it was just beautiful. And I said, Why don't we just sit here for like five minutes? And I just want you to do some deep breathing, think about the sights and the sounds and such. And at the end of that walk, at the end of 60 minutes, she said to me, She said, I feel like a different person. And you know, when you take somebody and you have a conversation outside where you have the sky above you and you have the trees or nature around you, you come up with different answers. Um, the possibility seems so much greater, and it's just very restorative. And so I knew that I was onto something. So I'll pause there to tell you kind of the next step that I took with that. I don't know if there's anything you wanted to ask me about that particular client.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Well, I I love the um the the what's the term, forest bathing.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Okay. And I didn't know it was a thing, like it's a thing um until a few years ago. I I did one of those um salt float tanks. Yeah. And in like the waiting area, they they you like kind of decompress and just chill out before you go in there. They had a library and they had several books on forest bathing. And I was like, what? I didn't know this is a thing. So I I I absolutely love it. Um we'll we'll go on. Um, I do have some other questions, but we'll I'll I'll I'll I'd love to hear the rest of the story. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

So um what I decided to do was I knew that there was a certification in force therapy or force force bathing. Um, it's a six-month program, 125 hours, it's live, it's um remote, and um, you know, it was a very significant investment for me, especially with the with the time part of it. But I thought, no, I really want to learn about the science behind force bathing or force therapy and really how to use this correctly with clients. So I did that. I graduated um earlier this year with my certification. And um, there's an organization called the Association of Nature and Force Therapy Guides. This, and that's who I got my certification from. And I think there are now 600 certified guides around the world, or no, there's 1500 around the world, there's 600 in the US, and I think there's three in Cincinnati. I'm the third one. But um anyway, so now I have this whole new toolkit that I can use with my clients around forest bathing or um forest therapy. And just very briefly, forest bathing started in the early 1980s in Japan when more and more people started moving from the outskirts of large cities into the city to take technology jobs, and there were a lot of stress-induced illnesses that were showing up in people, and the medical costs in Japan started going up and up and up. They uh started encouraging people to take a break, either before, during, or after work, and they started opening up parks, just to take a walk through the park. Well, uh, they started to realize the benefits of that. Then they started sending some medical professional professionals out to actually take some um some measurements, some readings of people before they would spend time outside in the forest. They would do heart rate, they would take um their uh blood pressure, and in some instances do a uh cortisol swap to see you know the level of um stress hormones. So um they started researching this and they found that when people came back from their walk, their blood, their blood pressure was was lower, the heart rate was was down, they felt less stress, um, they had more energy, more clarity. So that started this global um search for information, a kind of science behind what happens when we when we go outside. So there is science behind it, and I'm happy to share that if you would like, but know that um it is it is an evidence-based practice that people people are using.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Well, and I know on your website um that's one of your core values is the science-based piece. And then you share several articles and and research pieces. Um, so what it sounds like the benefits are lowered stress, lower blood pressure, more energy, more clarity. Um yeah, tell us for anybody, you know, we have all Enneagram types listening to this. So for those who are really into the science, anything that you'd like to share on that, I would love to hear about.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Sure. And you know, I've got a list of some books and articles on my um website, trekcoaching.com, if people want additional resources there. But um, when you go out into the forest, um, there's several things that actually happen. The trees emit a chemical called a phytocide, which um trees emit to help them um uh protect themselves from viruses, um, from things that cause disease in the trees. So when you go out, you're actually you're absorbing it through your skin, you're absorbing it as you breathe. And again, there's science that shows that it will actually raise your immunity level. And so right now we're all looking to keep our immunity level up. The other thing that happens is in nature, um, there's something called a fractal. And a fractal in nature is a recurring pattern in nature. So a pine cone, um, the back of a leaf that has, you know, the beautiful recurring lines and veins and shape. When you look at that leaf, or when you look at that, you know, perfectly aligned pine cone, when the eye sees that, it it helps to reduce stress, it helps to relax the brain, and it gives your brain a break. So when I'm out on the trail with a client, you know, um, we'll stop and look at nature-based fractals. Um, we might look at them, we might touch them again, um, bringing awareness to another sense. Because when I'm standing and I'm holding a pine cone, I'm smelling it, I'm putting my hands on it to feel the um the nubs on the pine cone, I'm now out of my head and and my other senses have been activated, which helps to relieve my whole body of the stress that I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_03 39:13

Okay, I had no idea. I thought it was just, oh, just being outside. There's science to that.

unknown 39:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:20

Okay. So if somebody's thinking, oh my gosh, like I am into this. And for anybody in Cincinnati, um, but also just wanting to maybe learn more about what it might be like to work with you, what what are some of those problems that people are coming to you with? I know that you had mentioned stress.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Um would yeah. Um, stress and also burnout.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

Burnout. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

So when clients go outside, and first of all, they're in a totally different space than what they're than what they're used to. They're in a place that's beautiful that makes them relax, that makes them automatically take a deep breath. Um it just starts from the moment that they pull into the parking lot of a park or nature center, that that relaxation. So I do individual coaching where we can go outside for either 45 minutes or 90 minutes uh on a walking coaching session. Sometimes people just want to be guided and they just want time to walk and to think or to sit. Um, I'll ask them kind of what their intention is, what it is that they would like to do or to not do while out on the trail. And these are very slow walks that we take. And um, also if there is a group of people, like a team that would just like to get out and do something different, be outside in a healthy environment, again, with that you know, limitless sky above you and the trees and the flowers and the sounds of nature around you for relaxation, but also we do some things to help people kind of get to know each other on a very safe level. This isn't deep um psychiatry out on the nature trails, but it just gives some high-level insights and appreciation to people. And we usually come back. Um, I rent lodges and we'll be on the porch then with some light um bites and maybe some mock tails made with elderberry spritzer or something, you know, that's um nature-based. And, you know, I've done this with nurses during COVID. I've done it with individuals with leaders that are leading their team that just want some new ideas on how to help the people that they're that they're leading, so um just in different different ways. So one-on-one and also groups, ideally like 12, maybe 20 people.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Okay, okay. And then um for anybody, you know, I look we got Louisville, Indianapolis, some big some cities that aren't that far away. Do you do traveling or is it all Cincinnati-based?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Well, um, you know, I've not done anything outside of Cincinnati yet. I would love to, and I would say that for um for your viewers and listeners, um there is a website called Forest Bathing Finder.com. And you can go out and you can put your city, um, you know, certain number of miles, and you can find a certified uh forest therapy guide. If anybody has trouble with that, but they're welcome to reach out to me. My contact information is on my is on my website, trekcoaching.com. Um, but there are the cities that you just named, I'm certain that there are certified forest therapy guides in those cities.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

Okay. Okay. And I was just thinking too, especially as teams, like if you want to take a little road trip to Cincinnati, that's not that's not that far. Uh, but for anybody outside of that area, I know we have listeners in California and even some in the UK. Um that yeah, that that may be a little harder to get to Cincinnati with, but um, yeah, just understanding how they could still benefit from some of this. Um, well, this has been really interesting. I know that we have just kind of scratched the surface on this, but I I wanted to share this with listeners just because it's such an interesting, um, just such an interesting idea. And I I know most of us listening to this are working behind a computer a lot of days, and especially with COVID now working from home. Um, that's okay. I I told PM before the show, I said we have dogs and kids and UPS people and A L E X A going off sometimes. So you just never know. But um you know how what what can we do and sometimes you know just saying oh just get outside you know it's okay well what just walk around my neighborhood or like well what am I doing here but to have kind of like you know a science based program or strategy or you know I don't know what the word is framework um it feels like okay yeah let me learn about this and then I love that you have the science behind it um there was one thing this is kind of at a left field but I had it on my um page to ask you and I just if there's anything you want to expand on it I think it's kind of self-explanatory but also I'd just love to hear anything else to add to it.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

In your your kind of mission statement um on your website you had talked about kind of this more than human world and you kind of take this more than human approach what does that mean to you well the more than human world is another way of describing things that are beyond ourselves and so when I go out into a park um when I go into a forest I see this environment as as other beings you know these each tree is alive every single tree in nature is different just like people are and there is just so much um aliveness and so much well so much life that's outside and it's life giving that it it it helps to energize us inspire us helps to keep us healthy and again a lot of science behind that and it doesn't have to be a three hour guided walk it can simply be taking time if I look outside my window right now and I have some bushes or you know flowers that I can see or I try to have flowers on my desk or even the pine cone that I was talking about. Just taking that break and focusing on what you're seeing, what you might be smelling, touching, hearing um helps to get us engaged in what I call that more than human world. It's the things outside of ourselves that keep us grounded and safe and healthy.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Yeah I'm just you know just as you're talking there's a tree out my window and like the leaves are blowing in the breeze and you know it's not something I would typically pay attention to but now you know just even us having this conversation I'm looking around and it is like very therapeutic, very calming. And then I also like that because I think especially kind of where we're where we have and this is obviously a topic for another time we're not going to get into it but just you know climate change and you know how do we take care of the world around us I I do think even even unintentionally we can go around with a human first um or not human first but kind of only it's just us here and what you know it's just us and and and kind of forgetting um you know the grass, the bees, you know, all these other things. And so I love that just to kind of walk around and and and look at all the other things that are alive um in addition to human needs.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

And you know like when you were talking about seeing the tree one of the things um I extend what I call invitations where I I I might say if you and I were out for a walk I would say Sarah um uh I want you to spend just 10 minutes just looking around and seeing what's in motion and you know so that's a a great way of doing it um like I said I like starting my day just sitting outside you know ideally for five or 10 minutes it can only be one minute when you start your day that way outside versus you know hitting the alarm jumping in the shower getting on that first call whatever you go through your day in a very different way. So just want to encourage all of your listeners to find even a small way to put just a little bit of nature into their day-to-day routine.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Such a good way to end this um I do have a couple of quick rapid fire questions for you as we close this up but before we get into that for anybody who is thinking oh my gosh I need to work with Pam or I want to bring my group or just wants to to you know maybe ask you a question about forest bathing where is the best place for people to find you online? So all of my contact information is on my website trektraching.com okay and then um I all these are questions I got three questions that I always ask at the end of every episode and um if you have they don't have to necessarily be rapid fire answers um but I'm gonna just try my best not to say anything in between them. So what is a book that you would recommend to listeners that has made an impact in your life about leadership, professional growth, the personal growth the latest one that I've read that's helped me as a leader is a book called Healing Trees by Ben Page and then I know that you have you had mentioned you have some other good ones on your website as well what is a tool that you use in your business and your work life that makes things easier software a tool an app even a routine I would say I have a one page sheet that I use for my um what I call my get to do list.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

And each day um it has nine squares and each day I put a new post-it note for the day and I put the three to five things that I have to absolutely get done by the end of the day. Oh that's such a good one and I love that I use a bright uh colored piece of of paper so that I can find it on my desk. But um yeah that's what works for me. I'm a visual person so that helps me.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Yes. Okay. And then um you know there's there's it's kind of the you know the ultimate like just be successful. We want to be successful in life and in your career. But you know the more that you you grow and learn you realize gosh there's success is defined so differently for for everybody individually. So I'm just curious what is your definition of success?

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Success is when you find something in life that you can't wait to get out of bed and start doing in the morning.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

And then I said three but actually have one kind of last question. We have talked a lot about the Enneagram and understanding yourself, understanding others, leadership challenges obviously forest bathing and the benefits of being outside is there anything else that you would like to share about any of that or anything else that I haven't asked you about today in order to kind of make this episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_02 51:31

You know I think when we talk about the Enneagram it is such a powerful tool and such a gift that you give yourself and the people around you when you can read something and you see words that describe finally why this person or this situation you know aggravates you or why you're drawn to this this type of person. So it's a gift that you give yourself and you give um to everybody around you. So um when you asked me to do this I couldn't wait to do it because I'm a big fan and um really enjoyed meeting you when you and I connected so thank you again and for the invitation to be with you.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

Ah well thank you for saying that and thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And I know that listeners will have gotten so much out of this so definitely get connected with Pam over on her website and let her know what you're taking away from this. Thank you so Pam thank you so much Bam I appreciate you being here.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

You're welcome thank you Sarah thank you for listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast Sarah offers Enneagram assessments for employees and entrepreneurs and workshops for company teams and women's groups to learn more about how Sarah can help you or your organization better understand people at work visit EnneagramMBA.com