SPEAKER_01 0:02

You're listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself, usually talking about the Enneagrams, sometimes talking about other resources and methods, but always bringing value and having fun along the way. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, certified Enneagram coach, speaker, and workshop facilitator. And I cannot wait to see you inside. When you hear the word leadership or think of a leader, what comes to mind? Is it a stereotypical picture of someone in a power suit leading from the front of a room, maybe leading a big team and a big corporation, maybe being the owner of a company, leading thousands of fans online, maybe leading from a stage? What comes to mind for you? I'm going to guess if you're like a lot of people, it's probably not initially yourself for whatever reason, right? And there's probably a lot of reasons, but the idea of a leader may not be something that you would say about yourself. However, in my conversation today with our guest, we're going to talk about how to start adopting that mentality and why, regardless of where you are, how to start leading from where you are right now. And to help us guide the conversation, my guest is Jahan Blake. Jahan is a fan experience consultant in the sports and entertainment industry. She is also a career coach to high-achieving women, wanting to break into that industry and then move up the ranks. And she is the host of a show called A Game of Her Own. Inside this conversation, she is going to bring her 15 years of front office experience working for teams like the Boston Red Sox, the Los Angeles Dodgers, the Chicago Cubs, and bring that insight and experience to leadership, how to start acting like a leader. What are the four traits of a successful leader? How to lead even when you're an introvert. And then she's also going to open up and share some of her experience as a type two leader. What does that mean for her? What does that look like? What strengths has she really leaned into? And maybe where are some of the obstacles she's had to work to navigate around? So without further ado, let's get into this conversation with Jahan Blake. Well, Jahan, welcome to the show. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm looking forward to this conversation and hearing more about your leadership experience and what life is like as an Enneagram type too. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

All right. So you have tons of experience in leadership and then really in the sports and entertainment industry too, which I think is so interesting. And I know listeners will be interested in hearing about that. So we're absolutely going to get into that. Um, but just to kind of lay the foundation to get some additional insight into you and your experience, um, how you see the world? I would love to hear. I know that you have identified as the as an Enneagram type two, have some questions, but just right off the bat, how did you know that you were a type two? What was it about that description that you were like, oh my gosh, this is me?

SPEAKER_02 3:17

You know, I mean, just the title alone, the the helper. I was like, oh, yeah, this is me. I didn't, I honestly, when I read through them the first time, when I first learned about Enneagram, I was like, oh, I'm clearly a type one. I I've since forgotten what that name is, but I was I was like, I'm absolutely a type one. And then I took it and I was like, oh, all right, well, this must be wrong. But and then I read, uh, I read a book and I was like, oh, this is exactly me. I was like, this is it's crazy. Just like all of the things that they said, and some of it escapes me right now, but I remember just like every page, like every word was highlighted on the book. Like I was just so amazed that oh my god, like this book knows me better than I know myself, especially the parts when they talked about the I don't, I don't want to call it it wasn't the word wasn't lazy. So whatever they the word they use to describe like your bad habits. Okay. So however they say it, right? Like your bad habits. And I was like, it was something about just how um, you know, you can just become very like lazy and not want to do anything when you're feeling like challenged and stuck. And I was like, oh yeah, that's me. Not wanting to, yeah, like not wanting to move from the couch. And I forget like it was a it was a trait from another number, and I want to say eight or nine, but I remember being like, oh yeah, that is totally me. And I was like, okay, I feel better. I know why I do that now.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Isn't that so interesting? I I it's like it just helps you put language to things that were there, you just hadn't maybe known what to say about them or what to call them or realize, oh my gosh, this is actually a thing. So I love how you describe that just out of curiosity, because people are always asking me, what do you remember what book that was?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

The Road Back to You.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Okay. Yep. That's a that's a very popular one. I know people are always like, What book do you recommend? What book should I start with? Um, okay, so the type two is really striving for listeners who just want to quick reminder is really striving to feel um connected and appreciated and loved and wanted. And then the opposite, kind of what we're running away from with that type two energy, is anything that would cause us to feel like disconnected or unwanted. So based on that, our our kind of thoughts and behaviors will come out with that kind of that fuel, that motive. Um, one of the superpowers of the type two is the ability to connect with others. That that's that what they want, but they have this ability to build meaningful relationships, to really see people and understand who they are, and then also what that person might need, like incredibly empathetic, especially being in that feeling center. Um, do you see, or I should maybe how do you see that superpower show up in the work that you do?

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Uh in any of the work that I do or in my career. So consulting or coaching is what I do now. Um, and just throughout my career, like I right not knowing what I like what number I was, I always knew that like, huh, like I just am really good at making these long lasting relationships, whether it's professionally or personally. And um, like if I meet somebody, like I immediately consider them a friend. My husband always makes fun of me because whenever we travel, he's like, you know, somewhere, so you have a friend in every city. And some people I've only met once. Um, and I'm like, oh, I'm in town, love to like meet up. Or some people I've just I've known forever. Um, and I'm really good at just maintaining those relationships. And like it doesn't seem like work to me. Um, and um, it's very easy for me to pick up if I didn't even see you in like a year and not think twice about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, yeah. Um, and then one of the struggles, or I think what would you say, maybe bad habits or or maybe sabotaging habits um can be not always, but can be a tendency of a two to um overextend, over give. Sometimes they struggle with boundaries, they say yes when really they want to say no. Um, does that resonate with you? And if so, how have you seen that show up?

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah, so I would just run myself like ragged. So I'm also an introvert. So I, but I didn't realize, like, oh, why do I feel like I just want to stay home and not be around people? I just could be like, oh, I'm being lazy. Like that's what it was. And so like I didn't realize it. And I remember um, you know, I'd run myself thin, and then my uh manager back at one of my first jobs in sports and when I worked for the Red Sox, she was like, you know, you don't have to say yes to everything. She's like, you're just you're leaving nothing for yourself, you're exhausted. And I don't know why, like it just when she said it, I go, You're right. And I believe she also said something along the lines of are is it reciprocated? Oh right. So just like looking at like I was always bending over backwards. I was always bending over backwards to make sure like I saw everybody, especially um, you know, when I would come back to visit in Boston. And I was like, Oh, I don't think after I'd moved away, like I would come back and visit a lot. I was like, no, I don't, I don't think it is being reciprocated. And so for me, it was easier to sort of like look at it differently. And so, yes, I'm gonna maybe say yes to things I might want to say no to, but I know like I'm not gonna see this person. And I know that they really want to see me and they would put in the effort to see me if they were in, you know, Chicago, right? Like I know they would do it. So it'd be reciprocated. So that's how I kind of use that, like how I measured things moving forward. Um, and even professionally as well. Like I'm putting all this energy in. Is it a two-way street? And if not, like, do I want to continue to do this? Um, or maybe some things I have to say no, maybe some things I have to put boundaries up um around because I don't feel like it's a two-way street. The best clients, I feel like it's a two-way street. Um, you know, they take care of me and I take care of them. And there's the the unwritten things. Do you know what I mean? Where I'm just like, okay, I got you, like, no problem, I'll do this. But I I know it's been they also are looking out for my best interest as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Okay, I've never heard anybody share it like that or explain how kind of that that that test of reciprocity. And that is so true. Um, because my boyfriend is um an Enneagram type too, or identifies most with that. And he was saying, you know, I I really like helping people. So I don't want to put up these firm boundaries where I'm always saying no. And so I love that that just well, would the other person say yes? Would the other person help you? So that's such a great test just to kind of consider and reflect on to help you decide. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one of the other things about the Enneagram type two, again, just a tendency for those of you who who may also resonate with this, is they're in this category. So the Enneagram has all kinds of groupings. Um, and one of those has to do with kind of how you um approach, you know, your goals, how am I doing, kind of your check-ins. And for the type two, they're in a grouping with the ones, the twos, and the sixes, where it's called dutiful, sometimes the compliance stance, and really all that it means is they have a tendency to check outside of themselves, either with a set of guidelines, either with a set, um, maybe a somebody else, um, kind of comparing how, how am I doing? Am I, am I, am I doing good and okay? Whereas there's other ways to handle that. And I think that all human beings can can have a tendency to look outside of themselves to know how am I doing? Um, I know that because I've listened to your podcast and I've been following you on social media, um, that you have done a ton of growth. You've had a ton of experience and you've, you know, worked on yourself a lot. Um, for somebody who is maybe in a leadership position or starting a new business, growing a business, we can have this tendency to kind of look outside of ourselves and put all of our eggs into how worthy am I, how good am I, based on what other people think. How have you, you know, what do you use to measure your success or, you know, how how are you doing maybe that isn't solely on what other people think?

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yeah, it's it's really it's difficult, right? In terms of like not looking outside of yourself to to have sort of validation and um someone just being like, okay, you're doing this right, keep going. Right. Like whether you're working, you know, whether I'm working for myself or I'm working for somebody. Um, I I feel like I spent, and I was actually thinking about this yesterday, I feel like I spent a lot of my career seeking this value validation, but I didn't, I didn't know, right? So I was trying to like make sure I fit into spaces where I didn't feel like I belonged. And I don't like there's a thousand reasons for that, right? There's just not one sole reason. So I just never felt like I belonged, but I would like try to mold myself into this person or this, like, okay, this is what they need, this is what they want, and this is and it never worked well. Like it just like I was successful, but like inside, I was like, I don't know, it just didn't, I don't know, it just didn't feel right. So I was, you know, having success, but I'm also like, oh, I don't know, like this just doesn't, I don't know. This is it's not the right feeling, but I can never, I could never articulate what that was. Like my friends would ask me, and I'm like, I don't know, I just don't feel right. Like, and I can't figure out why. And now looking back, I'm always like, oh yeah, I was trying to fit in. And while I was, you know, mainly myself, I wasn't a hundred percent myself. And so, you know, moving forward, I when I started, that's why I was like, you know what? I'm I don't think I'm meant to work for a team or a a company, whatever. I I feel like I'm just supposed to be on my own. I feel like I've always had this entrepreneurial bug in me. And then, you know, I've always had support from my father, um, who you know pushed me to start my own business. And so I just realized I was like, okay, why don't I just do it on my own? So why don't I I don't it could just be me. I can pull in a team, you know, but it really could I can take on the clients I want to take on, go after the clients that I want to work with. And if it feels right, then it feels right. And like I've had some great clients so far, um, especially on the consulting and contract work side. They've had some great clients where it just fits, they really value my expertise and they'll listen to my recommendations. And sometimes they take it, sometimes they don't, but like I feel a sense of value. And so I show up the same way every single time. Here's what I have, here's what I can offer. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I've had to say no to some things, um, which is tough right now, especially after like going through COVID and trying to recover. But I've had to, you know, be like, oh, I don't know if this is the right fit. Um, you know, and you don't see my value. So I don't, I can't imagine us working well together.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

And when somebody, because this what you just said, is something I know many others struggle with when somebody doesn't see your value. What does that like how do you see that show up in your work if you're willing to share? Like, are they trying to get a discount? Um, you know, what like what does that what does that look like for you when you're like this person just probably isn't a fit?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Uh yeah, sometimes it's um they want to pay less um than what I what I charge to to work with. Um sometimes it just it's more of a connection thing as well. And I I can't, it's difficult for me, like because I I feel like I'm working through working through it right now. So like a couple of years from now, I might look back and be like, this is why I said no to this, or this is why I had this weird feeling about somebody. I don't know what it is yet, but I just kind of like sat with it and was like, I don't know if this is gonna work out. Like the it just I don't think that they know what they want. And I don't know how I'm gonna be able to give them what they want because they're not very clear just yet, right? So it's for me, it's asking a lot of the the right questions uh to learn, you know, what someone needs and I and also knowing my capabilities. Like when it comes to the consulting and contract side, I know I love to go in and fix a problem. I love to, or bring a specific expertise that the person I'm working with doesn't have. So if you like I do a lot of training, uh a lot of training development. And I don't like if you already know how to do it, then you don't want to pay me. Like you know what I mean? Like you should probably just hire somebody at a you know at a different level or someone who just likes to do that sort of, you know, I don't want not busy work, but you know, just wants to get some tasks done. It's done for you. Yeah, because it's not, you know, I can do it, but I'm gonna charge you more because it's I'm bringing the expertise to the table. It's like you're just like, you know, bringing in somebody and hiring me and I'm getting it done, and then I'm walking out. So like I know that about myself. Um, so I want to, you know, come in, help you, and then leave. Like, I don't want to stay forever. Like that I'm not doing my job if I am. And so those are the things is knowing who I am, what I bring to the table, what how I like to operate. Um, and then on the coaching side, it's well, what do you want to get out? So, right, it's more leadership development and working with women in sports who um, you know, who wanna level up, who wanna who feel stuck, who feel like their voice isn't being heard. Uh, you know, if somebody was to call me and say, I've worked with a couple of coaches, but it's not working out, okay. What's the problem? You know what I mean? Like you might not be the right fit for me. But if somebody is calling me and saying, I just can't get out of my own way emotionally, we are gonna work really well together, right? Like I can help you again. The goal isn't for me to have you as a client forever. Um, but I I know I can help you. We have, you know, I have a six-month package, a four-month package, and um, or a three-month and a one-month package. And so I can be like, I think you should take the six. And sometimes I'm like, I think you could take the one. And I know I can help you with one session. So it's just being able to understand what they need and how I fit into that puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah, well, and I will just I'll just reiterate connection and kind of tapping into that reading people is the superpower of a type two. So that makes sense. That that's one of the ways that you kind of check in. Um, I also thought I just wanted to go back to something you had said a bit ago about just it feeling right too. And as a type two, that growth arrow. So at the beginning, you were kind of talking about your stress number. Um, each type has that growth arrow. And for the the type two, it's the type four, who is also in that feeling center of intelligence, but can be more in touch with their own feelings, whereas the two has a tendency to be more in touch with others' feelings. So that's cool just to hear you say, too, kind of you know, working on tapping into your own feelings, checking in how do I feel about this, which we can we can all do. We can all do a better job of. Um and so um one of the things I let's just go ahead and get into the some of the work that you do. Um, I I've shared with listeners already um just a little bit about you, your experience, but I would love to hear, I know you've mentioned you do some consulting and coaching. Um, anything else that you would like to add to that to kind of fill in the gaps for us?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Uh yeah, I mean, you nailed it. So the the coaching and consulting, um, again, I kind of talked about this a little bit, but I just was feeling frustrated where I where I was. And I worked for, you know, I started my career with Boston Red Sox, went to the Dodgers, uh, and then moved to Chicago, where I am now to work for the Cubs. Um, and all under the umbrella of like fan experience and how do we align all the groups that make, and there's a lot of groups, right? All the groups that make up the fan experience, how do we align them all to one um core philosophy? And I really loved that work. And I really feel like, especially when I got to the Cubs, that's when I got to like really take everything I've learned so far and like approach it differently. And even that was a learning process. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna leave and go to another team. And then I was like, I'm tired. No, why am I trying to fit myself in? Uh, you know what? I'm just gonna start my own business. Somebody spoke to my fears and gave me advice that validated those fears, and they said you should get consulting experience before you start consulting. So I went to Deloitte, which I shouldn't say that just so like, oh, I went to Deloitte, but like it was a, you know, it was hard to get into. That was a lot of stress around that interview process. Uh and you know, I I was there for maybe a month. I was like, this is not, this is not for me. And so I left very quickly. Uh, and so I said, okay, so long as you have your a client, you can leave. That was my rule. And so my first work was uh working with NFL and working on Super Bowl and Pro Bowl. Uh And then I just kind of hit the ground running. And so that's all under that was a subcontract. Um, and I I loved it. I was like, this might be the right thing, like maybe do some subcontracting and then also take on my own clients. Like I worked with the Atlanta Braves as you know, they were my direct client. And I was like, I really like this formula, and not it doesn't have a lot of coaches tell me no, you shouldn't do subcontract work. And I was like, I think you're missing it. Like I think that they're a little bit older, right? And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm 44. So I was like, I think you're missing the point. It works for me. Uh, and so I was doing that work and I did get a little bored. Um, no, and meaning there was something missing, and I finally was like, I miss having people come to my office and ask for advice and help building their career. And so looking at like for me, that was so easy. Like had a whiteboard in my office, and okay, let's let's whiteboard it out, right? Like, totally not getting paid to do this by the organization, but whatever. Like, this is fun work. And so, and sometimes I would lead people, or I shouldn't say lead, I'd guide people, walk along that side them and help them see that this isn't like what they needed, right? And so for them, it'd be like some people would be like, Oh, I don't belong here anymore, or oh, this is exactly where I want to stay. And and maybe I'm content being a manager because I don't want any more responsibility. And I loved that work so much. So I thought, oh, why did I start coaching women who work in sports? And I don't know, just kind of see how it goes. And there was a market for it, and so I just I kind of if I could, I've said this before, if I could do that full time, I'd love to coaching like and but for me, I think this is where the two comes in. Connection is so important to me that I don't know how to scale this in. Right. So I do a lot of one-on-one. I've done some group coaching, but the group coaching was I was putting more time into it because I felt like I needed to connect with everybody individually. And because they weren't getting the getting anything out of it, it wasn't the case. They loved it. It was me who was struggling because I didn't have the same connection as I had with one-on-one. So I think in just talking to you literally right now in this moment, I'm like, okay, yeah, that's why I was struggling with the the group coaching program. It went beautifully, but something was bothering me. And I think that was it. It was the the connection wasn't the same as the one-on-one.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Such good insight. I'm sure others can really relate to that. Um, let me ask you this, and this is actually how I first heard about you, Jahan. I heard you on a podcast and you were talking about um the experience of a consultant versus a coach. And I know we have a lot of entrepreneurs listening, and I think sometimes the line can get a little blurry. Like, what am I doing here? How do you define the difference for anybody who might also be struggling with what am I, yeah, am I a coach? Am I a consultant? Am I both? Um, just curious how you how you define it.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

For me, it's this one's really simple because the work I do as a consultant um or contract work, right? I I see view that as one and the same, but it is very different from coaching. Uh, and for me, I don't see a way to blur the lines. Um, just because, you know, train training development and training development is for the front, when I say frontline staff, I mean um the people who are out there talking to guest um fans, depending on what you know what situation you're in. But when you're designing something for frontline staff and then you're training them, it's so different than talking to somebody and doing one-on-one coaching or group coaching about them leveling up their career. Two different things. We have fan experience or guest experience, whatever you want to call it. Uh, and then we have, you know, uh leadership development, uh, which are two separate things, which I love. And I the only time there's an overlap is if I have a consulting client who I again, that connection, I'm really good at relationships and they feel stuck in their career, right? Because I'm not, I'm never working with like the owner of a company, right? I'm working with directors and VPs. And so they, you know, if they have struggles and they open up to me and confide, I am always one to, you know, offer uh, you know, a piece of advice, but it's totally separate. That's just yeah, that one is in my nature, even if I didn't have the coaching side, I would just, I would just naturally offer some help and some console.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Okay, so it I'm sure it's just because I'm not in the industry, but I've never heard the term fan experience before. And I love it to think about that whole group. Um, this is me just being curious. What like what do most teams or clients or people that are coming to you like what is a common challenge or like what do they get wrong? What do they think they should be doing with the fan experience, but they're missing, they're missing out on.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah. So this is where I so there's it's different for everybody, right? Where I thrive in the work I like to do is when you where where the miss is, is that you have a frontline staff. Well, let's back up. You have all your full-time employees, and you have marketing and community relations, you have all these different departments, and so they are like they'll come up with this great concept or this great like campaign, but at the end of the day, your staff is the one who is delivering on it. So if you go, are you a sports fan?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Okay, and so what's your favorite sport? I love the cults. Okay, so if you go to a Colts game and the you know, the ticket scanner is scans your ticket and doesn't say hi to you, but all the, you know, all of the branding you saw is like, oh, we're gonna roll out the red carpets, fans first, you guys are the best. We are so appreciative. But everyone you encountered along the way was either just like blah or rude or couldn't help you, the opposite of red carpet service. And so I I think that's where like the gap usually happens, and people don't know how to take this campaign and this concept and break it down into digestible pieces for frontline staff who are always part-time. I shouldn't say always, but they're always part-time, right? And they're doing it for fun. Some are like retired business owners, some are retired, like I had a retired superintendent on my staff, right? Like it's just they're doing it for fun, but you have to communicate with them differently than you would communicate internally and talk about it. So, how do you translate that into something that makes sense to them? And then they can then in turn take that framework and deliver it to the fans because they want to do right by you, but you just have to set up the expectations and then give them the tools and resources to do their job.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Okay, I think that is such a great point, especially for those of us who are our leading teams to make sure that that intention and the message gets communicated in the right way so that everybody's on board. And I'm also just thinking as you're talking, for those of us who maybe are running a one or two, three woman show, um, you know, sometimes I I will hear from um friends or clients that the message that was marketed to them, the the offer, the experience looked amazing in all the materials and on the sales page, but then the actual experience, kind of like you were saying, the intention probably isn't ill, ill-willed, but it it doesn't, it doesn't match. So just in in your own coaching, because this is really interesting because you kind of have both perspectives. You're you're seeing the company and that that, but then you're also leading um your own company as an entrepreneur. How what are some things or something that you do in your own business to kind of roll out the red carpet for your clients?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Oh, good, good question. I it for me, it's okay, making sure we outline the scope of work. Like, what do you want to accomplish? And this is the same on both sides consulting and coaching. What do you want to accomplish? Okay, this is how I think, you know, here's my recommendations on how we can get there. And just giving them the opportunity to like build it with me and to talk about it. Now, this this takes more time, which is which is why I think it's a miss for some people. Um, but just understanding what you need. Here's how we're gonna roll it out. Do you agree? What would you add, change or delete? Okay, let's move. Um, you know, let's move forward, but I'm always checking in. Okay, here are our goals. How are do you feel like you are, you know, we're headed in the right direction still? Uh, so it's very for me, it's just that open, I guess the the easiest way to sort of label that is the open communication um and constantly taking a pulse and checking in uh and making sure we're still on the same page uh because it you move so quickly.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

Uh and before you know it, like a program can be over. And if you haven't done a pulse check, then how do you know if your clients are satisfied with the work you're producing? And it's it's different than asking for validation. It's more about making sure they're good, um, which is something that is important to me.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

And it and again, a superpower with that type two energy is just really seeing people. And I think that that is such a great reminder for all of us, um, regardless of what we're doing work-wise, to make sure that we're allowing our the people that we're leading, the clients that we're serving to feel seen and heard. Because you're right, it's like, okay, this is your goal. Let's go. Six months later, the program's over. And you think maybe, oh my gosh, we went through all these things, but without that pulse check, you can feel like, oh my gosh, I don't feel seen, I don't feel listened to. And that is the worst thing. Um, and so what you're talking about isn't, you know, some extravagant, like welcome gift box with, you know, $500 of merch or anything, something like that. It's just simply allowing somebody to be seen. I love that. Such a good reminder. Okay, so you work a lot with in your coaching business, I know, with women wanting to kind of um break through that glass ceiling, claim that seat at the table. Um, what do you feel like like in your in your opinion, what makes for a really strong leader that that has the ability to do that, to claim that seat, to take and claim the seat at the table? Yeah, so it's it's tough, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Um, I know that my mother, her career was all uh, she developed, she taught executives how to be leaders. And I never like growing up, I didn't understand what that meant. I just, I was like, well, what do you like? If you're an executive, you should be a leader. How did you get to be an executive without being a strong leader? But then I, you know, as I started working, I like quickly found out the answer, right? Just through anecdotal, like, you know, just being led by people who shouldn't probably be leading. I think for me, I think one of the most important things is having, or I should say, I have I have four um important things that leaders have to sort of give. I call them basic needs, right? And so leaders have to establish trust, transparency, they have to be engaged, which I think is an area that's easy to miss. And then also um provide psychological safety. I think those are the four areas where you see leaders, um, if you see leaders check all those boxes, so to say, so to speak, like it's that's that's an important um, those are important, I should say, traits of leaders. And I also think some of the ones that are just the unspoken ones, too, is we you you have a responsibility, and it might not be in your job description, but you are nurturing your staff. Like you are the people who report to you, like it's your responsibility as a leader, and not everyone agrees with me, but it's your responsibility as a leader to help your team grow. And that's only going to help your team do better work.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Okay, I want to, if you're willing, just to just to tap in a little bit more to one of those. And I do want to share with listeners that Jahan has her own podcast we talked about at the beginning, um, called The Game of Her Own. And I think it was episode 121. She goes into detail um about each of these four components called the four basic needs of high-performing teams. So I'm gonna link that in the show. We can get into that, but would you be willing to expand on what is an engaged leader?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yes. So I think sometimes people are afraid to how do I say it? They're just they don't want to if I feel I let me give you an example. I remember I was, I won't say which which team, but I remember I was talking to the president and we were doing like some sort of season ticket holder um, you know, listen session. And they were like, well, we don't want to bring up certain things because they're gonna get really mad. And so I was like, Well, wait, so you're gonna leave this unresolved conflict out there, you're gonna invite everyone over to talk, but we can only talk about certain things. I don't want to talk about the things that are gonna make you mad because I don't know if I can help you. So, I mean, that goes to the transparency too, but like they all kind of overlap with each other, but it's okay. So, lack of engaged like leadership and those warning signs are like they there's unresolved conflict, right? There's you look at departments. I talked to a woman the other day, and she was just talking about how there's just high turnover in a specific area. So it's like sort of another warning sign, if you will, of a lack of an engaged leader. They're not producing new leaders. So it's going back to what I said about that. You have to like learn about your team and what their goals are, what they want, and you have to help them grow. And so, and sometimes you have to help them grow and then let them go because there's nowhere else for them to go. And if their goal is to continue to grow and you can no longer help them, well, it's it's okay. But I think sometimes people are afraid to have those conversations or afraid to let go of somebody who's really good. But if they don't get, if they're not getting what they want, then what like there's just something you can't do, right? I don't know. You have to have those one-on-ones. A lot of when there's a lack of engaged leadership, you'll see they'll skip the one-on-ones. They don't want to, it's almost like a scary time for them. They don't want to talk to their employees where I love the one-on-ones, you know. So my podcast producer, um, and like to give a recent example, my podcast co-producer and editor, like we meet once a quarter. And I'm always like, okay, tell me what's going on. Like one, are you still in this? Like, are you still feeling happy? Or am I making your life easier? Is there anything, you know, in the podcast that you hear that you would change? And some people don't want to hear those things and just rather just move on. And that was a simple example, but and also an important one. Uh, and then I think the last thing I would say is, you know, if there's a lack of communication um or silence among the team, then that means your leader is not getting in there, getting their hands dirty and talking about what's important, right? Because if there's no communication, then the team just kind of gets frustrated and fizzles.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Okay. Okay. I love that. Um, so many good takeaways from from that. I also have I'd just be curious to hear your thoughts on um those of us who may not feel like we're leaders because maybe we don't have a big corporate team, but we have clients or we're leading an online community. I know you had also done a podcast episode about leading from where you are. What is one thing, and maybe it's a mindset thing, maybe it's a behavior thing, something we need to go out and get or do, um, that you would recommend or that kind of that is a clear shift, like, okay, I am seeing myself as a leader right now. Here I was before, and now I am I'm leading this online community, I'm leading this group, I'm leading my um my you know, two-person podcast team, whatever it might be. Um, what is one thing that we can step into to kind of take on that that leadership energy regardless of our title?

SPEAKER_02 39:40

That's a really that's a good question. So how do you step in to that leadership role? Is that what you're saying? Like how do you think?

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Yeah, like kind of take on that energy, you know, because especially with entrepreneurs, it's not like, oh, here's your here's your title now, you are officially a leader. And you know, sometimes being a business owner, like yeah, it kind of goes without saying, but sometimes maybe we don't feel like we're big enough or have the uh the the following or we're not experienced enough, you know what I mean? And so it's like, oh, well, I'm just this. Um, but how can regardless of where we are, kind of step into that? I I am a leader in in this community.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah, you know, and I I've seen, I think I don't want to oversimplify this, but I for me, I I've seen some of my clients who've worked for smaller, very small, like one man shows, and then they have just a couple of support staff, and they've they've just been like they don't, they're not, no one's listening to me, right? Like I don't feel like I'm listening, I'm saying the same things over and over again. And I think I think one of the most important things is to listen, but then also you you have to take action now. That action has to benefit you, your company, and your employees. Like, I think that's important. Um, but what sorry, my husband just opened the door.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

That's okay. We have kids and dogs and A L E X A on here all the time, UPS people. Just we just got the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

I love that you just spelled it. So whatever your employees frustrated about or upset about, I think it's it's hard to hear what they say and not get defensive sometimes. Right. Hear what they say and not want to immediately fix it. So if you're a two, you might want to immediately fix it and then you realize, wait, I fixed this, but this doesn't work for the business. You can't build your business around like you know, one employee, right? Just to make them happy. So I think that you have to listen. And then you also have to, before you even get there, whenever you're I think the onboarding process, so if I can back up a little bit, I think the onboarding process is the most critical part because that's when you're setting expectations as a leader. What do you expect? And if that is not clear and easy to understand, you're gonna have that's when you're gonna have a lot of misses.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Expectations, action. Um, but it's not just, you know, you know, um random action. It sounds like you're kind of checking in with clients, employees, and then that intentional action. Um, okay, as we start to wrap this up, I have just another question to tap into your expertise, uh, kind of on the same in the same vein. Um, I know that there are others that are listening who maybe aren't in a manager role or you know, in the C-suite. Um, they're maybe thinking about changing careers, maybe thinking about applying to that leadership, or maybe just kind of want to step it up at work. Um, what advice do you have to somebody who may not, who may, you know, be a team member, uh an employee, um, not have that label? What's something that they can do um in their day-to-day to kind of start being viewed as a leader even without the the job title that says that right now?

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah, it's it goes back to that the episode um that I had uh leading from where you are. So what you know, what is your role? What are you doing? Are you meeting expectations? Are you exceeding expectations? Are you able to see big picture? Right? Are you okay, like you have your job, but then big picture? How does your job fit into the company that you're in? And so making sure that you're trying to lead now instead of waiting, saying, I'm gonna lead as soon as I have that director title, I'm gonna lead as soon as I have that manager title. Just start leading now. And if you feel like you can't get it where you are. Like, say you're like, I've exceeded expectations. I have, you know, big picture vision and I've tried to help. And I've gone to my boss and I told them all my ideas and they're not really listening. So think about how you, and I'm kind of viewing this as like it's how you get the experience, right? So maybe you need to go volunteer somewhere. Right. And I think I that was seems to be a theme for a lot of the women I've had on my podcast in their journey. They couldn't get the experience where they were. They tried everything. So they were like, you know, I just started volunteering and helping out. And that allowed me to use my leadership skills. And then you have, you know, that's networking. And then, you know, it's sort of like a byproduct of it, like there's networking. And then you have someone who'll speak on your behalf too when you go to apply for a job. Um, and it might not be the obviously the manager you have is not going to be the one who's your reference. So you can have somebody who can speak on the great work that you're doing, the great leadership work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

I love that. And then something that just came to mind as you were saying that is um going back to the Enneagram, a tendency of a type two is to tend to really thrive, helping others thrive. So they are more than okay and actually prefer sometimes to kind of be the guide behind the throne, if you will. And you know, someone else can be in the spotlight. I don't care. I'll I'll do all the things in the background that need to be done to make that happen. However, um, when you are a leader or when you step out and run your own company like you're doing right now, um, it does require some parts to be very visible, very much in the spotlight. Is that something that you have struggled with? And then especially just kind of thinking of your, you have your podcast, you you I see you on social media, you know, you are at the the face of your business. What um has helped you kind of step into the spotlight and um whether it's a mindset shift again, a tool, like anything that's been helpful and you getting more visible in your own business?

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah, I'm definitely I love being behind the scenes um of a business. Uh it is tough every single day putting myself out there. I've kind of um taken a un you know unpublicized like break from social media in terms of like posting. I'm just kind of like it's the summer. So I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna, I know my my metrics and I know what the summer months bring. So I'm like, I'm just I'm not gonna fight this uphill battle. Like, I'm just gonna chill because it's a lot, it's taxing. And I don't particularly love putting myself out there. But if I don't do it, how are how is anyone gonna know? Right. And like, so I just have to say that and to myself every single time. Well, if you love what you do and you love helping people, how do you put yourself out there? I'm you know, and a way that serves you and is authentic to you, but also is generating business because if you can't generate business, then you're not going to be in business anymore, right? So that's something that I've struggled with, but I will put myself out there. I will not be the one who goes and you know takes um spends like $2,000 on lifestyle photos and only print, you know, post like the perfect looking picture of myself. Like that's never going to be me. I thought I had to do that and I was like, this is not working. Like and I never, I was like, I don't understand why I want to pay this person this much money to take like it just it didn't like compute and I never bought into that. And I think we're starting to see that people are not responding to um to that type of um publicity. So I think for me, I just have to remind myself every day and just put myself out there. And then if I if it's working in terms of generating business, then I I keep doing it. Um it's the reason I like the podcast, is because I get to talk and just I don't have to rely on Instagram or LinkedIn or you know what I mean, like any of the things to support me. Like, here's my message, you can listen to it, and then I can watch the numbers and the numbers sort of speak for itself.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

I think a lot of people will really appreciate what you just said because there's definitely so much social media fatigue for sure, and like constantly feeling like you have to create content on all the platforms. Um, so and and I love the idea of a podcast too. It's a way to be visible, but you don't feel like you have to. We were talking earlier before we hit record, we got to put on our makeup some days, but the podcast, you don't have to do that. So I love that as a way to get visible, get your voice out there without necessarily, you know, yeah always doing that. Um, okay, last question, and then um I have a couple rapid fire questions for you. Um, I know you do a lot of work with with women specifically. Your whole podcast is dedicated um to that. What is something that as women we need to, regardless of our Enneagram type, um, we need to be looking at, focusing on, reflecting on um in order to move into these decision-making roles, into the room where those decisions are happening, that those titles, those leadership um positions. What is, I know there's so many things, and I I know it's not just um one thing, but what's one thing that you could offer us today that that might be able to help us start shifting in that direction or continue in that direction?

SPEAKER_02 49:54

I always talk to um my clients or really anyone who's um asking for support. Like the most important thing is understanding what matters most to you. I think it's very easy to like watch what's going on in the world, whether that's on social media or just regular TV, like it's just so easy, or like your friends and the network that you have, and then see someone's life and say, Oh, well, that's what I want. I want to be the next so-and-so. But you don't know what is that I won't even go that way. I'll say, is that what you want? Or do you see this finished product and think that's what you want? So trying to understand what is the getting clear on what matters to you most, I think is the most important thing. Uh, and then that'll allow you to drive decisions, um, like how you drive, like how you move forward and make your decisions. Right. It'll drive you and you'll understand why you're making certain decisions. Um, you'll understand why you have to put up certain boundaries because you really understand what you want moving forward. So that's something I use with all my clients. Uh, it's a download on my website for them that you know, a free one where I'm like, just do this workbook. And I ask them, you know, a ton of different questions. Just use this workbook and help guide you and then use it as a scorecard moving forward. And I always say check in monthly with it or at the very least quarterly. Because there's so much noise out there and there's so many distractions. And it's so it's so easy to, and I I say this and I mean this with so much love, but it's so easy to lie to yourself, right? Like it's so easy to just convince yourself that, well, that's not really what I want to do when you're in the moment of doing something. But if you can check back and look at your responses to the questions, I think it it's really it's really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Such a powerful piece of advice. And while we're on it, where can people find that download and then connect and learn more about you and how you help?

SPEAKER_02 52:11

Yeah, so it's right on my website, um jahanblake.com slash resources. Uh, and so it's right there. It's getting clear on what matters most. You can just download it. It's a workbook. Um, I like to tell people it's not the questions that are difficult, it's the you taking time to actually sit and reflect and give thoughtful responses that is difficult.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Okay. And then I have a couple of rapid fire questions, and then um we will call this episode complete. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Um thing that I always ask, we have lots of um serial readers that listen. And so we always are down for a good book recommendation. What is one book? And I know this is hard sometimes, um, either on leadership, professional development, personal growth that you that's a favorite or that you've read recently that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Oh, that's a good question. I have a really good where is it? Oh, there it is. I I have all my favorite books like on my bookshelf that I've already read, but I love to see them. So it's The Ride of a Lifetime by Robert Eager um Iger. Uh it is it is fantastic. He just talks about his entire journey and he's so he just he comes with so much information. He does not hold back. Like he like there's just there's so many like good takeaways. Like I almost feel like I need to read it like once a year. Like I might read it this this month because I loved it. So Bob Iger, um, I think he was the president of Disney or the president of um NBC or ABC, sorry. Um, one or the other. I think that was part of his his career journey, but he takes you through his entire journey and talks about some fantastic, fantastic stories.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Oh, okay. You are the second person to recommend that. So I'm I'm absolutely need to get that going soon. Yeah. Um and then, you know, and we've touched on it just a little bit, especially I think you mentioned it at the end, talking about identifying what you want. But um, there's all these sometimes pressure, and then just sometimes um expectations to to be successful and a desire, like I want to be successful. And then we get there at times and realize, oh my gosh, this isn't actually what I thought what it would it would look like. So, in your personal experience and in your world, Jahan Blake's, what does success look like to you?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

For me, it's it's it's simple. It's you know, I I live here in Chicago with my husband and our two dogs, and that's the most and my family's in the majority of my family's in Boston, some is in New Jersey, are in New Jersey, and then one's around the world. So it's hard to track them down. But what's important to me is making sure that I can spend time with them and have fun. And so um I don't success does not look like this. I'm gonna work 12 hours a day. I'm gonna, you know, like I I, you know, I think now the the the term is hustle, you know, culture. And you know, a couple of years it'll be something different, right? But at the end of the day, I'm not I'm not one who wants to work crazy hours. I want to be able to travel, I want to work remote, I want to be able to make sure I'm having fun and enjoying this short time on this, you know, earth. And then um, yes, and I want to do work that means a lot to me. Sometimes the work's hard and and that's okay. Um, sometimes it could be grueling, but I'm not okay with, you know, for me, success is you know, not living to work, right? You know, it that's not that's not my lifestyle. And I think I got caught up in that when I started working for sports teams. Um, I know this is rapid fire, but I'm definitely going down a long path.

SPEAKER_01 56:14

That's that's it doesn't have to be rapid answer. I usually say that it's just rapid question and then yeah. So yeah, I think that I think that's such a such a good reminder. Um what is a this is the last one, what is a tool that you use in your own business, whether it's with your podcast or a habit that you have that helps you be successful, productive, um, just something that makes your life easier.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Um, I don't know how people are gonna respond to this, but for me, it is listening to myself. And when I um need quiet time, I take it. And so I don't, you know, sometimes um people just feel like they have to keep going, but they're not, they don't have the energy, the level. And I get it, sometimes you have to push forward, but when you don't, and you can take a minute, um, take the minute. And so for me, like on Monday, I binged watched the last season of Virgin River, and I was I did it guilt free. And I just was like, uh, I did some stuff on my computer while I was watching, it's one of those type of shows, but I was just like, I'm tired. Like I just got back from a you know, I was on site somewhere for 10 days, and then I had friends in town, and that's important to me to spend time with them. And so now I'm tired. And so Friday and Monday were spent working/slash watching Virgin River.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

Okay, that is a guilty pleasure of mine.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

I have not seen the new season, but I I want to make sure you text me or email me after you finish it.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Oh my god. I did hear that they were already working on the next season. So I was like, oh, there must be something juicy at the end. Okay, okay. It was good. Well, I can't yeah, I can't wait. I keep saying, Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump in soon. Um, well, we have covered a lot. I know we've talked about the Enneagram and self-awareness and and leadership, all kinds. Um, stepping into that energy. Is there anything that you would like to share, maybe that I haven't asked you, or any final thoughts in order to make this episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Gosh, we talked about a lot. And I don't know that I have anything else to add. I think the most important thing is just making sure you understand what's the most important thing to you, what matters most to you, and then just listening to your like to your body, to yourself and being okay with just like slowing down for a minute doesn't mean doesn't make you a bad leader. Um, you know, sometimes you're gonna go, go, go, and that's okay too. I I like that lifestyle. I like to go, go, go, and then I like to slow down and then do it all over again. Um, so it's really figuring out what you want to do and then doing it and being okay so long as you're meeting your basic needs, you know what I mean? And you're like, you know, can pay your bills and do your, you know, how you know, bring in the revenue that you want to bring in, then I think it's okay to slow down sometimes so you can, you know, speed up again and go even faster.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Wow, such a great way to end. On that note, I appreciate you so much, John. Thank you for being here. Thank you for all that you shared. And listeners, absolutely get connected with her. Check out our website, find her in social media, let her know what you're taking away from this one. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Thank you for listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast. Sarah offers Enneagram assessments for employees and entrepreneurs and workshops for company teams and women's groups. To learn more about how Sarah can help you or your organization better understand people at work, visit EnneagramMBA.com.