SPEAKER_02 0:29

Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram Indie podcast. Today I am joined by Nathan Parcells, who is a former founder in the tech industry. So that'll be really interesting to get a little bit more into. And then he now is an executive coach with a specific focus on co-founder dynamics, which I think is so interesting and so fun. Also really excited to dive more into that. And Nathan is also joining us as an Enneagram type four link three, which there's not a lot of you that I come across anyway. So this will be extra special and interesting to get to hear about life and leadership as a type four. So welcome to the show, Nathan.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah, uh thank you. Uh excited to be here, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah, and Nathan and I are LinkedIn official now. We have gotten to connect. And so, you know, social media gets a bad name sometimes, but there's also a lot of good that can come from it. One of them meeting new people that you never would have met before. So thankful for that. So tell me, I know I mentioned you have this, you do coaching um workshops for co-founders. Tell me a little bit about how you got into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Hmm. Um, yeah, so the the sort of short version is that, you know, shortly after graduating college out on the East Coast, I traveled out west and dove headfirst into the startup world. So ended up co-founding a company as a platform to help students find internships and jobs, and did that with one of my really, really close friends, is someone who I'd known since the third grade. And um yeah, the it was some of the most rewarding work uh I had done to really fell in love with the process of being an entrepreneur, building something up. We raised funding over the course of six, seven years, scaled the business. It was reaching over 10 million students to half the college population. It was a really rewarding experience. Um and as I went further down the road and was a marketing operator, so in that realm, um, I noticed my enthusiasm sort of waning. And this has been the first job I'd done uh really out of college, and so loved the entrepreneurial side, but then later as the business grew, I was loving less than the operator elements. And eventually navigated out of that role as a founder, which was really challenging, um, challenging personally, and also to navigate with my co-founder. Um and one of our investors at some point put me in touch with their preferred executive coach, found it very helpful, and sort of a light bulb went off. Oh, this is something that really calls to me and plays a lot of my strength. So that was when I first really learned about coaching, but it took me a bit longer to make that choice, to make the leap and do this work full-time, which I've now done for uh over five years working with co-founders. And it was a couple years in that I realized that doing the co-founder work um is really what I love most because it's the added complexity of working with two people and building their own awareness and then also awareness of the dynamics that exist uh between them. And something I've personally gone through and knew how challenging it can be to navigate and impactful it can be to build better uh communication and partnership. Uh so yeah, that's how we got here.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

I love it. I absolutely love that. Um, just tightening your experience and then what a great kind of niche. I'm I'm absolutely sure you have um plenty of work to do out there. Um it's hard enough doing it by yourself. And then I'm sure both rewarding and also challenging with someone else. Um, what are some of the biggest challenges or a common challenge that you run across with the clients that you work with?

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah. And just as a note, yeah, I would say, you know, the something I'm passionate about is the process of building. And it's most of things that we do do require partnership. Um, and so there's a sense of freedom that comes from getting better at the skill of partnering, I would say. Um, and anyone who's done anything with partners knows that when you add more people in the mix, challenges inherently arise and they change over the course of doing something. Um, with startup co-founders, uh, the challenges, the key issues that show up are some are just different communication styles and different personalities that sometimes can be complementary, but sometimes can be triggering and frustrating. And so it usually the arc goes from like, oh, um, we're excited to be doing this together to eventually um resentment and frustration can show up. And if you don't navigate that um and you hold it back for different reasons, that can be that the relationship needs to evolve to allow for that in. Um, other challenges, if a company's scaling and growing and being very successful, then um role changes are tricky because that's enters creates new dynamics in how you are working with your co-founder or partner. Um, burnout and founder exits. You know, someone at a certain point uh wants to do something different or leave and is figuring that out, that just creates um yeah, it's hard to bring up and talk about. It's important to kind of bring up early on. So I guess those three are communication, um evolution and role changes, and then sometimes burnout and exits.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yeah, oh my gosh, absolutely. Um, I know that you have a process that you call the sharpened approach, which is kind of two parts of that. Would you be willing to share a little bit about each of those?

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, I would love to. I mean, it's based on three main elements to this, both personal growth, but then also works interpersonally as well for leaders. And the first piece is awareness, the second piece is um action, and then the third is you know accountability. And so awareness is such a big part, and it's something I use the Enneagram um to help support it's knowing both strengths, weaknesses, but also patterns and blind spots. And some of these are sneaky, they're things that are hard to really discern these areas or why we do what we do, because they're deep-rooted. So just building up awareness of something is and getting it clear and concise is so powerful. Um, and then on the action end, I speak to doing things that are 10 to 15% of your risk zone. How do you work on things that are uncomfortable for you? And it's not always about jumping into the deep end, but slowly um holding yourself accountable to growing that edge and and trying things to uh build the muscle up for areas that are um not in your normal sweet spot.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, you know, I'm just this is just pure curiosity. Um and maybe I'm maybe I'm making assumptions that are not true, but I'm imagining these like tech startup founders who are just so focused, um working a lot, but really focused on their product or service or app or whatever it is. And then the thought of like self-awareness feels like, oh, I don't have time for that. Is that does that ever happen? And if so, like how how can you get them to care?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

That's a great, great question. It definitely was, you know, a lot of me in the early days of building my company. There's so much excitement and enthusiasm and uh sort of a wonderful ignorance um to certain aspects of leadership. But then eventually, you know, if you're not doing that work, what happens is it you know can really come back and bite you. And you see that with founders time and again, who grow something significant, but then don't evolve in the process and then can lose a lot of what they build and sort of it's a quite a painful experience. And um it depends. I mean, sometimes when you work with serial entrepreneurs, they've know that the importance of this um self-awareness work, and so they're proactively seeking it out. Um, there's a culture that has grown that's placed importance on coaching, and you have both investors and um advisors oftentimes recommending to young founders, hey, this might support you. Um and yeah, I think it's prioritization, both in terms of knowing it's important, but then also doing the work behind it. Um, but more and more people do seem open to it. But it's you know, I only know from the people who do actively work with me and reach out, there's plenty who are who are not doing uh the work. And you know, that's where they're at in their developmental process, just to say, oh, maybe I don't need this, and maybe at some point uh the trigger will come that was that maybe this is something I should do.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Yeah, yeah. I was just curious. Um, because I know as many Enneagram enthusiasts as there are out there, there's also many Enneagram skeptics. So just curious.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Um, just a just a note on that piece too. I find, you know, I was at one point when I was first introduced to the Enneagram, I like loved it and then put it away for a while. And then later, as I did more work, I started to find new, more nuanced aspects of it that spoke to me. And as I worked with other people who helped me understand it better. So it's definitely been a process over years. So I I don't know if that's been the same for you, but I don't necessarily take someone who might be initially skeptical as a negative thing. They're just in that process of figuring out how to incorporate that into their life.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Yes, exactly. Yes. Just like, yeah, what what can this do for me? Is it worth my time? Just kind of the questions, which is what I love about the Enneagram is that it um it really gives you some new questions and ideally better questions to start asking yourself. So however, totally process starts. Um, I'm curious, what is one of your favorite parts of the Enneagram or most useful parts? Because I mean, um, I just got done with an interview um, you know, on someone else's podcast, and one of the hosts was one of those skeptical Enneagram people, and they were just like, there's the wings and the arrows and the subtypes, and she's like, I just am so confused. So there are a lot of parts to it, but I'm curious what is one piece of it that has been really helpful in the work that you do?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

I feel like so. This is something I've been thinking about recently, and I speak to a lot, is that it's a it's a framework. And what frameworks do is they help us take, you know, areas that have too much complexity and data and help us kind of find the right level of um information to be useful. And I guess one of my favorite aspects of the Enneagram holistically is its capacity to offer both kind of to simplify and then give you complexity as needed. And so you can get um, you know, I think the structure of having nine initial types that one can look into and start to explore is powerful, and then to go to new layers like levels of consciousness, um, where you go under stress, etc., is powerful. So I think just the the simplicity of the framework that allows people to engage with it. Um but if I had to pick another, I'd say the levels of consciousness component too. I think it's just such a powerful way to add a dynamic element that helps from what I've seen, people be able to say, yeah, I can I can buy into this because it's not static like other um some other personality assessments tend to be.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Yes, it is so fluid. And I love how you said that it can be really simple and then you can add in the complexity as you go along. I've never heard it put quite like that, but that is such a great explanation.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Um, I'm curious. So you have worked with all kinds of different founders, and we have talked as we were kind of preparing for this conversation about some different dynamics that again, not all, not always 100% of the time, um, but maybe have some tendencies based on some common challenges based on the type. And one of those matchups was the type eight and the type uh three, which in the work that I do as well tend to be some of the most common types in the corporate leadership role. So it's no surprise that you would have a type three and type eight co-founding pair. Um, what are some strengths maybe of that dynamic? And then maybe what are some possible challenges that they might encounter?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, eights, threes, sevens, ones all tend to show up a bunch and I've but I have worked with founders and CEOs of pretty much all types. Um and yeah, the eight and the three in is an interesting dynamic. I think. Yeah, it's so insightful. I mean, I love getting to get part of the secret of being a coach is you learn so much about um different relationships and different people and yourself. Um and eight, you know, being a challenger type and being highly direct and comfortable, you know, just saying most specifically and sort of objectively, oftentimes, here's my thought. There tend to be just being a gut-based type, tend to kind of put things forward very quickly. Um threes being oftentimes, you know, both um active and extroverted and communicative, but also more aware of being liked and their dynamics with others. So sometimes eights can be um pushing a lot. And then as a three, that challenging back um to push back is a little bit uncomfortable because there's that for many a fear of not being liked. And so oftentimes I'll see that struggle of like getting that muscle built on the three side of how to push back. And sometimes it it takes time because um you know that what might be uncomfortable for the three is not very uncomfortable for the eight. So it really takes that um timeline and work to build the muscle up such that there's some parity there and that there's healthy um boundaries being set between the two.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah. Oh, I I can absolutely see that. Um and I'm curious too, you know, the the stereotype for them both, along with the sevens being in that assertive stance, is that they're very future focused, going far, going fast, which I could see being a tremendous quality in that leadership entrepreneur space. Um, but what could be like what might be missing that they will have to intentionally incorporate into a dynamic or a duo like that?

SPEAKER_00 16:05

Yeah, I mean, I think something that can happen, you know, under stress, that active side can be um challenging. I mean, all partnerships under stress, um, you know, you have to be hopefully have done a lot of work in advance so that you can handle those stressful moments. And when more negative patterns of each type comes out, you know, having the capacity to understand and take those in. But um with a three under stress, oftentimes sort of feeling uh fearing failure and um starting to become a little bit more overwhelmed uh is something that can happen. And eights, uh, well, oftentimes the eight leaders I work with oftentimes will sort of be doing more um driving and micromanaging and controlling. And so that can really just add to the overwhelm. So that dynamic is one that could be hard because you don't have anyone who's really there to say, let's pause, let's reflect, let's make a plan. And that's sort of what the the three leader most often needs is kind of getting back to a place of a plan.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Oh, such great insight. Okay. Um, let's take the eight again and then pair it with one of on the surface can look like the complete opposite in the nine.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Um, what do you like? What is that dynamic like in your experience?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah, this is a duo. Um, you know, I've worked with for a while now, and it was a really interesting combination because as you mentioned, there's um in some ways quite different in um body energy and sort of how one shows up. And yeah, nines, you know, again, I'm generalizing here that folks know, but there's a sort of what an arm's distance um approach. How do I um not overcommit to too much um so that that peace uh making uh or peace seeking side can be satisfied, not wanting to let too much in, compartmentalizing, sort of guarding against too much coming their way at once, and the eight sort of liking movement, action, activity. And so that push-pull almost uh is something that can show up, which could be triggering um for both you know, the eight feeling the eight leader being like, I want to go, I want to move, I want to do, and the nine being like I want to manage how much comes in at once. And so it's an interesting uh combo that that can operate in that way.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah, yeah. And as at the same time, I can see that being like such a great pairing when they both have that level of awareness because it's like, let's go with the eight, but then like let's pause, let's see, let's look at the situation from all the sides.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Totally. Yeah, it's uh it really is, I think in the co-founder setting, so much about awareness because it's first the individual awareness and then being able to like say those things succinctly to the group where you can have those aha moments of oh, that's why we do this, sometimes fall into this pattern that is upsetting or frustrating. And there's yeah, this duo that I work with had some breakthroughs in that manner where it was realizing their differences in how they each like to communicate and then finding some behavior shifts, sometimes just small ones of like, oh, if I as a nine sort of am too um trying to kind of say too many different things or too um not direct enough, like, hey, if you want, maybe we could do this, or maybe we could do that, and you know, the eight leader being like this is really what do you want? Very frustrating, and just a little shift of like, here's what I think, what do you think? And sort of being more comfortable with that from the nine, huge, you know, it doesn't fix everything, but it does make a really big um, yeah, uh sort of dialing down the temperature in those key moments.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Oh, such a great way to say that. Yeah, people are always one of the questions like after like how do I find my type is how do I use this information? And I mean, there's so many examples, but that's just a great run right there. Just a little shift can like how much frustration and miscommunication can go away when you understand that about yourself and whoever it is that you're working with.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah. I mean, also just in terms of how to use it, you know, I think it is quite difficult without great coaching and support to be quite as proactive as one might like. Because so much of it comes down to those taking the complexity of that awareness of, oh, I do prefer peace, I do prefer then not having too much show up at once. But knowing all that and knowing how to manage the discomfort of then choosing to say something more direct, which a nine might fear will create lack of peace. But um in actuality, something that their co-founder recommended hey, I prefer this. So it takes a little bit of that, someone to observe and help highlight that option. Um, I think certainly you can learn those tactics um on one's own. But in like especially in a partnership, it's much harder because there's so many more dynamics at play um to really see it all um and and make those shifts.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

You know, maybe if we could just take a quick tangent because there's one other period I want to get to, but you said something um I think that's such a great point. And it it's like um, you know. Hiring coaches to help you, you know, tennis, whatever kind of sport, like is very common for those reasons because it's like, oh, I'm uncomfortable right now, I'm tired. It's like having somebody kind of push you maybe one more step or show you how to do something easier, how to recover. So I love that. Um, I actually was on your website earlier um preparing for this, and you had written a really great blog about kind of the trends in coaching and um getting more specific and the benefit of that. Would you be willing just to quickly share what you're noticing with coaching and the trends and then the experience maybe you had with your breath coach if you're willing to share that specific?

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah, of course. I mean, I'm just super excited by how I think coaching is in this real heyday um right now, with it becoming more normalized for leaders to work with coaches, which enables more coaches to go out and do their thing and be successful. And there's a trend in the field of sort of we're learning more about neurochemistry and the brain and somatics, and then coaching best practices and tools like the Enneagram are all tightening um as more people do this work. And then um what it what I spoke to in the blog post is this specialization of coaches, and something I like to do, um, which not everyone prefers, but is to rotate my own coach like every four to six months so that I'm working with them, taking in new things that I can sort of integrate into my um growth edges, uh, and that there's such great specialist coaches out there. Uh, so there's could be someone great for communication using the Enneagram, or someone who's great at somatics and sort of managing um emotional self-regulation through the body. And each of those can be very powerful when, especially when to apply the right moment for what you're working on. And yeah, I worked with a breath coach because I was um had emotional self-regulation as a goal of mine, as a a four. Um, sometimes I can be um feel things intensely, and I've realized that it's both a gift and something I need to consistently work on managing and know how to do that well in order to be my best, um to be the best coach and nearer to my clients and all of that. And so I found this amazing breath coach um who yeah, like was so deep in that world, was really helping me notice my breathing and some specific skills to be more expansive in how I breathe, which is tied to um relaxation, calm, um, and some areas of emotional self-management that that were helpful for me.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

We could all probably use a little bit of that.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yeah, yeah. It would be good for myself for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Oh yeah. And I think even just what you do is so in line with that kind of that specialization, like not just a business coach, um, not just, but you know, simply a business coach, it's you know, for founders. And then it's like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's what I need. And then you're able to bring and apply that specific experience and expertise, and then yourself being a founder too. So I I love that. Um, okay, last kind of matchup that we had talked about going through was the type one and type three, which for me um tends to be one that sometimes people struggle with, like am I a three or am I a one? So there are a lot of similarities here.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Totally. And yeah, that is an interesting. Thank you for noting that. An interesting element that there's similarities in a sort of a performance orientation, doing things either right or well and successfully. And yet that I found that this is definitely a combo that can have a lot of tension. You know, obviously, all types can get along very well if they're operating at higher levels of consciousness and aware of their patterns and doing all those things. But um, I worked with one pair where this was a very challenging dynamic because the three being more um, you know, willing to do what it takes to succeed and therefore open to efficient approaches and corner cutting in some cases, as they say in the startup world, 80-20 different projects. So doing just the 80% uh of the work needed to kind of get the highest impact. Um, whereas the one very much was, and in this case, the three was very much like, okay, what does the customer need? I want to close the sale, so like just doing only what's necessary, whereas the one was like, okay, I have this project timeline that I've mapped out that's really perfect. And um, we need to hit these dates, and then if something changed, it was very frustrating um because they had spent a lot of energy um crafting a clear, right, perfect timeline. And so those differences becoming aware of them and why they're there helped, but it was still a very challenging dynamic for each of them to uh to deal with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

And then how how difficult was it maybe in that specific situation or or um I guess what was the aha maybe for them that came out of like, oh, this person wants to always do it perfect, and this person is okay, or I'm okay with cutting corners. Like, how how do we compromise or what what came from that one? Just as an example.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah, I mean, you know, sometimes it's easy, I know, always to go to solutions. And so sometimes there are those behavior shifts, as I was talking about in the other dynamic, that were helpful for them. But again, I always do go back to the starting with awareness. And I think as they understood each other's perspectives more and really got what was creating the thing, the behaviors, like, you know, if the three want to change the plan a bit to do what they intuitively knew the customer would like and therefore would be good for sales. Um, but if that was annoying for the one, um, but just that awareness of, oh, this is how this person operates is actually helpful in these ways, I think allowed it to be less painful. So that was kind of the aha, was just getting that real clear understanding of their differences.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah, and I love what you said, less painful, because I always like to remind myself as well in my own Enneagram journey and then others, um, that this doesn't mean you'll never have conflict again. It just means like maybe it'll be like less painful conflict or it'll last shorter amount of time. Um we so we've talked about these pairings, 839, 13. None of them are the type four. That is the type that you most identify with. I would love to hear what about the type four do you specifically like really resonates, what parts of that? And then we'll get into some. I got some questions for you, Nathan.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah. So I I a four with a three wing, and so an individualist, but also do have that achievement orientation. Um I love depth. I think that's a part of the four that really lands with me. Um, you know, have really go into phases, whether it's with music or books, I did a Russian literature phase where I read a lot of Russian classic novels and really enjoyed those lengthy pieces and capturing a unique insight into a particular time and place and a you know, slice of humanity. Um, do the same with music, kind of obsessed over different artists for a period, and then sometimes get to a place where I'm like, and I can't stand that person. I moved on and done something different. So all of those pieces, and I'd say authenticity is something that I really have a lot of concern about, like it matters, and then um that can be both a strength to be focused on that, but also can be challenging as sometimes my three side wants to do things that are more you know oriented towards what works and isn't always authentic. And so there's some, but I'm aware of that tension that I hold.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Was there ever a point where you were like, Am I a three with a wing four, or am I a three or four with a wing three? And if there was, like, was there a defining moment or a thing that you were like, okay, this, yep, four is me.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

You know, so my process, it did take some time to land on this um for all those reasons. Um, you know, I just can see different parts of myself, and maybe the four is sort of uniquely skeptical of certain things. I don't want to be pegged as one um type. And so it took me a bit, and yet as I I took some workshops on the Enneagram and sort of heard the four spoken to more and more and in some ways that really I understood fully and the egoic patterns of the four, and it just as I layered on, I'm like, oh yeah, that's there. And it's both like a part of me that loves being a four. Oh, it's this unique um type that likes to be rebellious and different at times. I'm like, and the shadow side of the four is can be quite painful. So it was uh a nice thing, and uh, ooh, I don't know if I like all of this.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

I feel you, that's how I feel about my seven sometimes. Um now, you know, it depends on what what you read. And you know, some of this is not, I don't know, like how like cert Enneagram certified, but I have heard from a couple different Enneagram articles um that Steve Jobs most had this like energy of the the sexual four, that one-to-one four potentially. Just curious if you've heard that. Do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yeah, it's an interesting, yeah. I could definitely see four and three wing. I mean, I think fours, you know, something I know for myself is that capacity for vision. I can really feel and sense a future state and like feel so strongly about the importance of creating that, even if it's a hundred steps away. Um, and then that can be harsh because sometimes once you realize that gap, it's like can be painful. Um but that makes sense to me in terms of and I think as a four, you sometimes know the importance of storytelling, dramatization. Like you can rationalize, hey, this is the right way to say this thing to kind of convey its importance. And so I see that in how he kind of speaks and presents as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah, I'm just curious on your your four take on that. Um, what do you see as being a strength? And this is, you know, obviously I'm interviewing you and I want to hear your experience, but for any other fours out there who sometimes hear a lot of the threes, the eights, the sevens, the ones, you know, getting in, you know, talking about their leadership experience, that forward focused energy. Um four has a it's a little bit different. I know with your wing three that that probably affects it, but what strengths of a four do you see show up um in your coaching work and that are really helpful?

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Yeah, well, I love you naming Steve Jobs just as a potential for executive because it's nice to see some of those archetypes and what that can look like. Um, and yeah, we definitely live in a three culture uh here in the United States. And so obviously there's some benefits to being in that realm and in a corporate setting, it's more the normal view of leadership is quite three-like here. For me as a coach, the four side is very you know powerful in some areas, there's strengths and weaknesses, but um capacity to you know be very connected and present to you know empathize with people and um to really feel out sort of what they're navigating in different scenarios and to understand that with complexity. Um I would say as well, you know, intuition is sometimes this skill that is I think we all know is incredibly powerful, but don't always know how to speak to it within a you know a corporate setting where there's strategy and data and then there's this notion of intuition. But what I like to say is that it's um yeah, it's a heart-based knowledge that takes into account lots of experience that pulls from many sources and gives you a quick insight on something. And then it needs to be unpacked so it can be communicated why you have a sense of something. But I often find in my coaching I have great intuition on what might be going on for that leader um or in a co-founder dynamic. And what I've learned to do is to check in on those intuitive hits to to kind of make sure that they're correct or to get the their version spoken back. But all those are are great, you know, powers of the forward so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:09

I um I agree. And I'm always not always, but I'm so often reminding myself to I'm saying tap into that four, you know, allow hard feelings, identify how are you feeling, how could this person be feeling? Um, it is such a gift to have somebody. Um, I always say like one of the things that I I mention when I talk about the four is that they're really the only type on the Enneagram that is able just to sit with a friend, with a teammate, with a coworker and just allow them to feel and however they're feeling rather than reframing silver lining or problem solving. That's so good. It feels such a gift to be that person on the receiving end of that four energy.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Ah, thanks for saying that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

Yeah. I'm curious, you know, talking about all the things about the Enneagram, just while you're here, and I know you have a deeper knowledge than some some of the others that I've that I've had, just because this is part of your teaching and coaching work, but do you see your arrows with the four show up or how? Because for those that that don't know, those arrows are um, you know, according to the Enneagram, where what might show up when you're burnt out, stressed out, and then there's one that's kind of like your growth stepping is some of those qualities to really balance you. For the four, um, their growth is the two, and then sometimes that, or I'm sorry, their growth is the one, and then their stress sometimes is the two. Do you see yourself and that two energy in a state of stress?

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Hmm. Um definitely. I was gonna go to the one. Oh, okay. Well, go yeah, do that first. Just as a quick note, you know, I had a coach who helped me kind of really understand the power for fours of the conscious one of having a clear mission. Because as a four, that heartfelt nature can pull me in different directions and want to do different things and can lead to a lack of focus. Um and getting clear on mission as a very specific thing has been you know game changing for me in achieving my longer term goals. So just a very one specific insight about my foreness and the growth towards oneness that was very, very helpful. Um and then on the other end, yeah, I mean, it makes me think of times when you know I was burnt out and navigating, exiting my startup, and that was a period of very high stress. And yeah, there was I am not actually as aware of the lower conscious levels of the two, but definitely um a fear of lack of being loved and cared for and seeking out um where I could get that comfort because my emotions were running quite, you know, I was overwhelmed and um it was hard to regulate and and there was some maybe need and codependence even on others to help provide that for me at that at that time.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Yeah, that is exactly yeah, what that can look like sometimes in that in that two, that lower two area. I I was just in a in a workshop a while back, and one of the women identified as a four, and she was saying she had no idea about the growth arrows or anything like that. But when we talked about the one, she was like, Oh my gosh, I have noticed that I'm able to like kind of live my best life when I'm like dreamy, but also I have a routine. And she said, without a routine, I'm I'm just a mess. I'm all over the place. I don't know what I'm doing, my clients, I don't know. Um, and so I was like, Yeah, what a what a gift. Yeah. And it's kind of almost again, kind of you almost resist it a little bit because it's like, oh, structure, routine.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Hugely resist it. It's it's one of those, you know, I love that the Enneagram lets you discern between good discomfort and bad discomfort.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

And there's like a part of me that always wants the chaos and likes the freedom and the exciting things that happen in that way. And it's in doses, that's fine, but I yes, structure is something I have to uncomfortably bring into my life and and choose to have that um because it's helpful. I know it to be helpful.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yes, yes. Well, and and as a seven, you know, one of my connectors is the one. And um, ironically, yes, I the structure and discipline sometimes is it is necessary, but it can feel like really confining and limiting. And so I feel that. As we start to wrap this up, Nathan, this has been so interesting. I appreciate all that you've shared just with your own experience and then your experience as a type four, getting an insider look into that. Um, what is next for you? I know fours tend to be very visionary, um, a lot of ideas. Um, anything that you are working on or plan to be working on next with your business or or life in general.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Um, well, first and foremost, having kids soon, which is exciting, and I'll be working on that. Um taking all that in and worry a bit. I mean, both deeply excited and worry about, you know, lack of structure that comes with those changes. So life changes are always an interesting time to be like, oh, you know, what I've worked on can then shift and need to be re redeveloped in new ways. Um yeah, I'm currently growing my coaching practice. So, you know, on a mission to create the really leading uh co-founder coaching practice, I really believe that co-founders are so important to all of us. Um, you know, when people have good partners to create with, they bring cool experiences, companies, um, podcasts, info into our world. And yet it requires sophisticated partnering. So I hope in the future, you know, lots of people have access to great coaching to support their partnerships and um yeah, building out that um and growing a small team of folks to kind of help uh make that more of a reality for founders and creators.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

And then you also host retreats. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Oh yeah, yes, I do.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Yeah, I love that in-person opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Yeah, it's it's totally that for me, that's sort of a 20% project. Um and it's definitely in my forness, it's a retreat that combines uh T grouping, which is a modality for communication and growth that I appreciate, um, but with creative, uh other sort of creative and artistic work, uh, because I believe that the world needs more of that and that it's a fun thing for people to get to combine leadership growth with doing some creative, playful um improvisation experimentation um at retreat spaces. And yeah, I've had a bunch of clients come and it's fun to have people who I work with in one context then get to do work in a different one, and it tends to deepen our work. So I really love doing those. It's called Protean. And uh yeah, yeah, we do a couple a year.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Okay, okay. I think we gotta all use some play, more play, less, less uh work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

So nice to do that. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Um, well, for anyone who is interested. In the workshops, learning about your co-founder coaching, following along with your content, where is the best place to connect with you and learn from you?

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Yeah, in terms of just connecting with me on LinkedIn is a place that I'm active and just kind of share updates. So Nathan Parcells on LinkedIn. If people want to email me with any questions, if they're a co-founder or creator and want to do some of that work, feel free to reach out. My website's sharpend.co. And then lastly, the retreats. They're usually Bay Area based and Protean. If you can spell that, then you're there. Protean.group is the name of the website, or just email me and I'll I'll share it with you.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Okay. And then Nathan's last name is Parcells, P-A-R-C-E-L-L-S. So just a minute.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yes, nailed it.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Clarify that. Okay. As we wrap up, I have a couple of rapid fire questions. They don't have to be rapid-fire answers, but I will try not to say anything back. Um what is a favorite book of yours or a great book that you have read recently that you think these listeners who are into the Enneagram, personal growth, professional development might be also interested in hearing about?

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Um one of my favorite books is The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky. And Freud used to say that Dostoevsky was the only person he learned about psychology from. Great character studies. It's a long book. So maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but an amazing one to explore different types, archetypes of people. Um that's very thorough and beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

And say that again, the brothers brothers Karamazov.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Okay. Um you know, another classic that maybe is more relevant to folks is just the untethered soul. Um, I'm guessing many of your listeners have already checked that one out, but I go back to it frequently. Um, it's got great insights about, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Okay. I I have heard of that one. I have not heard of the first one, but I'm gonna write it down. And um, I feel like that could not be a more for book recommendation.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

Yes, yes, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

I love it, I love it. Okay. Um, what tool or resource or app or routine do you use to help you get through the day, be more productive, be healthier? Um, what's something that you go to?

SPEAKER_00 46:38

The big one, the big thing that I do, I have a monthly goal setting process that I've kind of honed for myself. Um, that I love because it sets the right for me. I set three monthly goals and have a specific way of reviewing those. But it's for me, it's the right level of detail for the stage of company that I'm at and my focuses that it's helps me prioritize, and that's always a challenge for me as a four. Um, and I don't like to-do lists necessarily, those lots of people have different challenges with that. So, yeah, there's a template that I use, and I'm happy to share that with anyone as well. If people want to check it out or to share it with you, and you can post it along with this if you'd like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Awesome. Okay, love that. And then last one, a lot of talk these days about living your best life, about being successful, um, which you probably we all can relate to, but you know, with that three energy, success is very important. Um, how do you define success though? What does that look like in your life?

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Yeah, I mean, this one is is tricky for me. It's a bit hard because I do, you know, really strive for success with my, you know, that three wing, and um don't it can be painful because I can sometimes never quite feel like I'm there. And so it is something I work on. I do think the goal setting process helps me modulate my expectations and celebrate incremental wins. Um you know, it's a good one, and just because I don't have anything that's fully off the top of my head, it means that I should probably think more on this. To me, it's a little bit something I'm orienting towards is trusting. Um just trust in general that you know, each day and month I'm making progress towards my mission and goals and sort of feeling more comfortable, less like I need to be anxious about that happening, but more trusting in that progress towards the amorphous idea of success. And so that's something um maybe just being in tune with that uh that sense of inner success um is how I'm orienting towards it currently.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

I love that. Okay, and I said one more, but I actually have one more that I forgot to ask. Um, what is something that most people get wrong about type force?

SPEAKER_03 49:18

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

I think they can be confusing to people, um in the sense that sometimes as a four you can sort of speak to different vague notions that you're considering or feel connected to. You're sensing, there's a lot of that sensingness, I find. And so people can think that there's not a yeah, there's a level of clarity missing, but sometimes it just needs to be extrapolated out. And so uh partnering with someone who's good at taking vague ideas and get helping you get them to a tighter place is is powerful for fours, but I think that sense of like um lack of clarity can sometimes be a misconception of the four.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Thank you. That is really insightful. Um, I appreciate knowing that. Um, well, Nathan, this has been a really good conversation. I feel like I I still have so many more questions just about Ennegram type four. So we'll we'll call this episode complete for the time being. Um I appreciate all that you shared. Please get connected with Nathan. Let him know what you're taking away from this episode. He shared so many things, um, especially if you are a co-founder or thinking about co-founding of, like you said, a podcast, a business, whatever it might be. Um, is there anything else that you would like to share about self-awareness, leadership, co-founding, type four energy um before we do call this episode complete?

SPEAKER_00 50:53

One little one that I'll just kick off with that um is that to make when you find areas that you're really working on, to set them as six to 12 month, you know, improvement areas. Don't feel that pressure to, oh, if I'm trying to learn to be more direct in my communication and that's hard for you, you know, life is long. And so if you make incremental improvements over the course of six to 12 months, you'll get that inflection that comes from doing that work. And so I think having that length of time can sometimes be helpful because sometimes we think we need to change X, Y, Z right away. Um, so that that's one that I've learned to be quite helpful for my own work. So it doesn't feel so pressure, like such a pressure cooker.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Yes, that is such a powerful reminder or just perspective as you grow, uh incorporate the Enneagram, whatever self-awareness tools that you're using, um, that it is not overnight. If it was, we would just all just be reading books and just be perfect the next day. So um, well, that's such a great way to end, Nathan. I appreciate you. I'm so glad that we got connected and I'm excited for our listeners to uh hear this one as well and learn from you as well.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Thank you so much. And thank you for hosting me. I've enjoyed your questions, your seven energy, and this whole process and all the work that you do. So really appreciating that. So thank you, Sarah.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

You are so welcome. It was a fun one. Thanks, Nathan.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Thank you for listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast. Sarah offers Enneagram assessments for employees and entrepreneurs and workshops for company teams and women's groups. To learn more about how Sarah can help you or your organization better understand visit EnneagramBA.com.