SPEAKER_02 0:02

You're listening to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself, usually talking about the Enneagrams, sometimes talking about other resources and methods, but always bringing value and having fun along the way. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, certified Enneagram coach, speaker, and workshop facilitator. And I cannot wait to see you inside. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MBA podcast. Today is selfishly one that I've been looking forward to, and I think that you will enjoy regardless of your type. I'm joined by Tiffany Knapper, who is a business coach for Creative. So we're going to get to tap into some of her experience and expertise. And she's also joining us as an Enneagram type four, which I had the privilege of getting to host a workshop for her and her team a few weeks ago. And I've never been surrounded by as many fours as I was in that group. And so I was like, oh my gosh, Tiffany, we got to get you on because it's rare, which is probably something you like to hear. Um, that I get to um interview a type four. So welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. Okay. So you have just uh a wealth of business building, sales, marketing, branding, expertise, and experience. I know that you have built five successful businesses over the course of your career. Um, would you walk us through a little bit about what you do now, like what creatives, and then uh we'll get into a little bit about how you got there.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yes, absolutely. So now I spend a majority of my time coaching and consulting other business women who are creative in some form or fashion, right? And I'm helping them grow their business. And more importantly, I'm helping them find joy in the journey again because as business owners, let's be honest, it can be mundane, it can get a little complex, it can be hard. And uh, my ultimate goal is not just to help them make more money, but also to just help them feel in control and confident again and really enjoy what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Okay, and one of the things that you had shared on your website, I thought was brilliant, I loved, was helping these entrepreneurs, these creative entrepreneurs make bank, but also with balance.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

So, and I know that you focus a lot of your work on helping to avoid the burnout. Burnout. So, what was it that you were seeing? And maybe even share a little bit about your own experience around burnout.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, I mean, it was a hundred percent my own experience. It was me um experiencing some pretty severe burnout before I even knew the term burnout. So, to age myself a little bit, I'm 43 and I started my business when I was, well, in 2011. Um, so 31, 32, something like that. And I'll be honest, this concept of entrepreneurship and running your own business, it just wasn't back then what it is now. It wasn't this thing that everyone was jumping on. And so I didn't have a lot around me to learn from. And I was definitely not hearing about the term burnout. Um, so I say all that to just preface the fact that um I didn't know what I didn't know, right? And I had to learn it the hard way. And I found myself really quickly by, I don't know, two or three years in, I found myself running not one, not two, not three, but four businesses at one time. I had a PRM branding agency, I had a very successful handbag line, I had a co-working space for creatives, which was more of a lateral move because I needed it for my team, but also sounded like fun. And then I also had a short-term rental property in New Orleans, Louisiana. All that to say, I burned myself out pretty badly and really became unrecognizable to myself. And I did not like myself anymore. The stress had taken over and kind of changed my personality, which is not uncommon, right? Um, so everything I teach when I'm sitting there with a client or um, you know, a fellow business owner and I'm talking about how to build their business, I'm always going to come with that mentality of, but how do we do this in a way that aligns with the type of life you want to live? Because if you're sitting there telling me that you just had a baby and you want to be home more and present more, then you know, scaling your business and taking it up 10 notches probably isn't the right call unless you've got a really hefty team around you. So yeah, all that I, you know, I'm just really passionate about making bank and finding balance. And I believe, I believe you can have both.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Yeah. And you know, that aligns so well with what we talk about here on on the podcast a lot of times, is is so easy to jump in to um get kind of bogged down with all the shoulds, all the you got to have an email funnel and you gotta have a landing page and a freebie, and you got to do podcasts and YouTube channel. And it's like, oh my gosh, it's so much. And absolutely it's going to lead to burnout. Um, so I love what you're saying about identifying your own goals where you're at, being realistic, and not necessarily what is everybody else doing.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yep. Shiny object syndrome. Yeah. Doesn't help us. Yeah. Shiny object, yes. Yeah. And Instagram wasn't the thing like it is now as well when I started my business. So in that sense, I was lucky because I didn't have the comparison traps and the imposter syndrome was not something I struggled with, to be quite frank. Um, because again, I didn't see a lot of other people doing what I was doing. Um, and now it's a different ballgame. And I get that. And I'm I'm in it. You know, I launched this coaching practice, if you will, publicly in 2020 in a very different landscape from where I was when I launched my PR branding agency in 2011. So I'm getting to experience it and go through it and therefore teach from you know, living and experiencing it.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Okay. And then if you're willing to share, or whatever you're willing to share, about the transition from four companies burning out both ends of the candle to where you're at now, like what changes, shifts did you have to make?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Oh my goodness. Um, I laugh and I say I burned it all down, but it's actually not far from the truth. So to sum it up on a nutshell, not only had I burned myself out with trying to run four businesses at one time with a very lean, you know, team, I also had um put myself into a not healthy situation from a relationship standpoint because I was of the mentality I'll never forget, well, I can make businesses run. So a relationship should be the same thing. It's just, you know, put in your time, da-da-da-da. So I got married quickly. It was a terrible decision. And I found myself kind of burnt out and emotionally drained as well. So I really did burn everything down and build again. I had a business coach at the time. He was my very first business coach. I was skeptical at the time, but I'm so, so grateful for Zach. And I remember sitting there with him and just in tears, like a therapy session, as it sometimes can be. And I was just like, this is not the life I envisioned when I left corporate, because I was in the corporate world for 10 years. When I left the music industry and said, I want to go out and I want to have more freedom and I want to be more creative, because that's the four in me. You know, this isn't what I envisioned, where I'm like at the office every morning at 7 a.m. and I'm here till 7 p.m. and I'm not eating lunch and I'm just drowning in caffeine and and I'm not recognizable to myself. And my my um I found myself getting kind of like a feisty, for lack of a better term, with my with my loved ones, which is so not my personality. I am like calm, always have been. I'm a yogi, I'm a certified yoga teacher. Like, you know, I had lost track, I had really lost my way. So I burnt it all down. And when I say that, this is what I mean. I closed the co-working space in New Orleans. I let go of my entire team with my agency and decided to just become contract only. So I would only have contract people that I would bring in when I needed them. And I decided to move so that I no longer had to feel this constraint that I had put myself in of needing to be the first person in the office and the last person to leave. Um, and I just like removed that from my life so that I could be nimble and free again, which is what I wanted to begin with. I decided to go get my yoga teaching certification for for no reason other than I knew I needed to kind of take care of myself and I wanted to do some really deep introspection. And that allowed me to do that. And um, about a year later, I also closed the handbag line. So I really did kind of burn it all down. I went to Bali for a month. I mean, I did the whole thing and I just I did a lot of work around healing my money mindset because I recognized that a lot of the reason why I was burning the candle at both ends was because I was so fearful that I wasn't making enough money. But there was no logic behind that. All four of my businesses were profitable from year one on, which is kind of insane. It is, yeah. Okay, but I didn't know, I didn't have anybody to compare it to. I didn't know, I just thought I was struggling. And so I was I was living under this mindset of it's a struggle, it's a struggle, I could lose it all tomorrow. And it didn't make any sense. So I did a lot of work healing, my own money mindset and recognizing where scarcity was kind of taking the wheel. And um just rebuilt from the ground up, still did my PRM rating agency after that moment. I got my biggest clients ever. I had my highest profit margins ever. Um, and things really shifted and changed for me.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Okay, there's two things that I want to circle back on that you said there was a lot in there, but one is this idea of just kind of, I guess, quitting ultimately. Um, and I was literally just this morning listening to a podcast about the power of quitting, but how in our society, how much we glorify grit and resilience and like never give up. And she used this example of a man who had climbed Mount Um Everest, and he didn't do his turnaround time when he said he was going to for that day, and he ended up dying. And then we've like glorified him because he and this is just an example. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but we know nothing about the three people that turned around and ended up to live, right? So she was just using that as an example of how, you know, un oh, what's the word? Just kind of like how unsexy it is to quit um certain situations. And so I love what you're saying though, about does this aligning with who I want to be and what I want my life to look like? And rather than fear of quitting, you said no. And it wasn't like quitting because you can't do it, it's just it wasn't a fit, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And um, so I don't know if this is the for in me, but I've never really had a problem with going against the grain and kind of doing things my own way. I do recognize that that's not the norm. And I have lots of clients. In fact, I just worked with a client recently, and this was something we tackled in our very first session, where she I was like, What's what's weighing on you? And I won't give all of our secrets away, but it was this one component of our business, it was this one business actually. She had multiple businesses as well. It was this one business that she was holding on to that was profitable, but making her miserable on a daily basis. And so I went through this exercise with her that was like, what would it look like if you quit? What would it look like if you sold the business? And at first she was like, Well, I can't quit. I'm not a quitter. And I was like, Well, hold up. Because you just told me this business is making you miserable on a daily basis. Like you're on edge, worried when the phone rings, giving you deep anxiety. It's not making you happy. And the money doesn't matter to you. You've also mentioned that you've got money from your other business. So why are we looking at this as a failure and not you taking control of your life and the situation and saying, you know what? I did that, tried that out, was successful, but it didn't feel good. I'm gonna get rid of that. Kind of like, so just re-giving us a new definition of that term and maybe not even using the term quitting, because it does have such a negative connotation, like you said, it's so unsexy, but man, it's powerful. Like when you recognize that something is no longer feels good to you, and you say, Hey, I created this and I can also burn it down and create something new. When you recognize that in yourself, you become unstoppable. Unstoppable. And that's where we get stuck because we think, oh, but I created this, and we get this fear that we can't do anything else. It's just not true. It's proof. You did this, we can get rid of that and you can do something else. And we can get rid of that and you can do something else. Like it's there are unlimited possibilities.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Okay. I'm loving this that you're that we're kind of taking the conversation here because um that is it's a very much a thing. It's a it's a it's a hang up. And um, I think too, just one of the things that's like people you don't know if you're gonna like something until you do it. So, how would you have ever known that you were gonna, you know, love designing handbags until you did it? And then at some point it may or may not serve you, just as an example. So, but you don't know until you do it. Yeah. Um, so I love that. The other thing I wanted to circle back on that you were this part of your story is this idea of being a multi-passionate entrepreneur, because that is something I'm sure you see a lot of in your clients. It sounds like you just had a client um that had a couple of businesses. What advice would you give to somebody who has a couple of ideas um and not sure where to start? Or should they start on all two, all three? What would you say in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Uh well, while I think it's perfectly great to have multiple passions and go in different directions, I will say one of my biggest lessons is that I didn't launch four businesses at one time. Okay. I launched one business, it was doing well, I launched a second business, thinking it was gonna become just a side hobby hobby and it took off. So I didn't really like, I didn't do it all at one time, and I wouldn't recommend that because I just think you need to give something proper dedication for it to flourish. And if you're spreading your time and energy in multiple areas, what you're gonna end up normally, not not everyone, but typically you're gonna end up feeling very um distracted, kind of like chaotic, um, and and not see the success that you want to see because you're not giving something your full attention. And then you're gonna quit before maybe you should, and it can just get really messy. That's not everyone, obviously, but um, and if you have a team supporting you, different, right? But we're talking like small business entity kind of concepts. So I say, make sure you've got one. What's the one that lights you up the most? Let's put some energy in that, let's focus on that for a little while. Let's like put our head down and focus on building that to a degree that it feels really great. And if you have something else you want to be doing on the side, great. And I believe we should all have hobbies. We should have more hobbies than we have. Speaking of, I believe that not every hobby needs to be profitable. Like this concept that just because you enjoy doing it, you need to make money off of it, hogwash. No, let yourself have fun just for the sake of having fun. But if you can make some money off of it and it doesn't overpower the fun, by all means, you know, turn it into a profitable means. But for example, if you have a branding agency and you're painting on the side and then you start selling your paintings, but then selling your paintings causes you stress because you get really emotionally attached to the process of the sales and it robs you of the joy of painting, then I would say stop selling the paintings, right? Like just go back to painting because it brought you joy. Um, so that's a long-winded answer, but no, I don't think it's yeah, I don't think there's a one size fits all approach, but I would say just make sure that you spend some due diligence on the one that brings you the most excitement, the one that feels the most that you feel the most passionate about. And then you can spread your wings once you feel like you've kind of got your arms wrapped around that one.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Yeah, and I think that's a good reminder to what you said. It's like you can't, you're not crossing it off the list, you're just saying, let's get this other thing going, and then we can always add it in.

unknown 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Okay. So I you have done a lot of self-awareness, kind of in look at looking within. Um, and I know that you had shared something. I don't know if it was on your Instagram feed or on your website about how um impactful self-awareness can be, not just as a human, but to your business as well. What has through whether it's the Enneagram, your yoga journey, other tools and frameworks, resources, what have or how has becoming more self-aware impacted you as a leader and as a business owner?

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Uh, I think it is imperative to the journey. And I think it has completely changed who I am as a person. My self-awareness journey made me a better leader, made me a more compassionate leader, made me a more, you know, more aware just of other people's personality types and responses to things. It made me a better communicator. It made me uh more balanced, just because obviously it became really important to me. And because of that, you know, it trickles down from the top, right? So when I take my downtime seriously, when I take my nights and weekends seriously, I'm going to respect your nights and weekends differently than maybe I wouldn't would have if I if I was the type that was just grinding 24-7. I experienced that in the corporate world where I had a boss who was a hustler and therefore expected us to all always be hustling. And I remember thinking it was just so unfortunate because I usually had pretty good boundaries around personal and business. But when it comes from the top down, it's really difficult. So maybe a better communicator, maybe more compassionate. Oh, gosh. I mean, it goes on and on. Um, you know, understanding my Enneagram and my human design, um, and all of it has just really allowed me to feel more confident in who I am and how I show up, and also to lean on more people. Um, it's really given me that sense of grace that's like, Tiffany, you don't need to do all of this on your own. And when you do, you're not your best self. And when you're not your best self, nobody wins. So it's given me just like um a lot of grace and an awareness and understanding and compassion. And I really do believe that when you're a business owner, if you're not also on a personal growth journey, then you're gonna crash and burn.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah, yeah. Um, there's a quote that my business coach, I'm forgetting it now, of course, but basically the the same thing, just how important that that self-awareness is as a business owner and as a leader. Um, because yeah, it's it's it's gonna be difficult without without it. Um and also I think when you are, especially when you are in in business for yourself, selling your own products, your own services, there's a lot that can come up with like you were saying, money mindset and comparison and posture and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Um, so I know that you have mentioned that you must identify as an Enneagram type four, which for those that aren't as familiar, the type four is really striving to feel significant and unique and typically running away from anything that would be ordinary, mundane, um, just you know, just kind of blending in. So, what about that type? And I have some specific questions. So, so we'll get into those, but just initially, how did you know that, oh my gosh, this is this is my type? I see this in myself, or I see this in how I'm running my business.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Oh, well, that was a no-brainer. I mean, I've always identified as a creative. I have always marched to the beat of my own drum, even in high school. Like if you look back at my journey as a child, I did it all. I did tap dance, I did clogging, I did gymnastics, I was a dancer, I did cheerleading, I did tennis. Um, oh my God, I could probably keep going. So that's kind of an example of me being a four, right? Like, I just want to try it all on and I don't want to like fit into this mold, even with my friend groups. I had, I was friends with all the different kinds of, you know, cliques in high school. I didn't want to be in just one click. I was kind of like my own lone wolf, and then I was friends with all the groups of people. So I've all, you know, as soon as I learned about the Enneagram and I came up a four, I was like, oh yeah, of course I'm a four. Um, and the the the deep rooted like desire to be seen and not just seen, and I don't want to use the word admired because that can sound egotistical, but to be seen and valued as someone who is bringing a unique offering. the world is 100% me like without a shadow of the doubt of a doubt.

unknown 22:06

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I very much identify as a four.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

And not to be stereotypical, but the first time I got on a a zoom with Tiffany, I was like, oh my gosh, your backdrop if you're listening to the podcast, you can't see it, but I'll share some clips on YouTube. It's gorgeous. It's like so put together, so clean, just aesthetically pleasing, which can very much be a gift of a four.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

They have that eye, they can feel that. What I thought would be fun is because I have you here and you are so kind of, you know, um in touch with your your yourself and an understanding of the Enneagram, I thought we could go through some qualities of the type four. Yes. And then you could share how you see them show up for yourself and in your business. So I'm going to run through some of the strengths that the type four has. One of them is this ability to understand kind of the emotional vibe of the room, of the group and the interactions and are really aware of team dynamics, client group, community dynamics. How do you see that showing up for you personally?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah, I think that's one of my superpowers. So I 100% can walk into a scenario and recognize if someone's feeling a little off, a little uncomfortable, a little XYZ. And I I know I'm an empath to a degree as well, but prior to being a business owner, I was a creative director and I produced these massive photo shoots with artists like John Legend and Elton John and these types of people who, you know, their energy was really important for the flow of the day, the results of the photography and the videos that we were doing. And so I didn't recognize it at the time because I didn't even know what an 90 gram was back then. But I had a superpower to walk into that room and be able to kind of like suss out okay, how's everybody feeling and how do I bring the energy up or how do I bring it down or whatever needs to happen. However I need to like turn this dial to make sure that we're all going to have a really successful and creative photo shoot. So now I see that that is definitely a four. And of course now running a team it plays a factor and even working with my clients it comes into play just because I can usually kind of read what's going on. I mean I've had a I have a client I'm meeting with today actually and like our last two sessions kind of can't we kind of canceled and rescheduled and I could tell that her head was not in a good spot. And I was like you know what I know you're like processing. So do you want I said to her do you want to postpone and she was like oh my gosh yes and I think that's because I was able to kind of she wasn't going to tell me hey Tiff I'm having a hard time but I could sense it. I was like something feels just a little bit off and I'd rather meet with you when you've had some more time to do some internal you know thinking and and come to the table feeling really ready to process whatever you discover.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Okay. And I I just think that and for for those of us who maybe don't identify as a type four um that is definitely something that I would like to get better. I know it'll never be a superpower but just understanding exactly just that call not pushing through just make it happen just like hey like let's post like what's the it's it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

So I I love that okay something else that fours are excellent at are kind of creating I mean we just mentioned it in in the back of your your backdrop it's creating this really um comfortable aesthetically pleasing environment and I know that you've had a co-working space I also think that just kind of everything from like your graphics on an online with an online business maybe on onboarding process you know whatever that might look like for you just curious how you see that in in your in your business now.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah I'm so visual and I have very high standards on my visuals for my own business. And you know love helping my clients elevate their visuals as well. I would have been an interior designer in another life or a house flipper in another life space and and and then my mom did that for a living. So I grew up in that environment I always just kind of thought that's why I was good at it because my mom did that and I was around that. But I think it might be a combo of of my personality type and my environment. But yeah if a space isn't pretty I really struggle a struggle focusing I struggle creating I struggle having ideas. And so my office is always one of the first things that I do I moved into this house about six months ago and the office was like I was like we got to get this office feeling good because I can't I can't sit in a homundrum space. And it's also why the corporate world wasn't great for me because I would literally get headaches sitting in those boardrooms with fluorescent lights and you know your basic brown table and black chair kind of vibe. Like it just it just did not stimulate me enough. And um and I again did not recognize what was really going on at the time and I I probably even gave myself a little bit of a hard time about it if I'm being honest. Like why does it matter Tiffany? Like don't be so bougie you know but in reality it's it's it's not bougie. It's it's just me and it doesn't have to be this like you know extravagant luxurious space. I I'm also perfectly at ease on a beautiful you know front porch looking at some trees looking at nature like I just it just needs to feel good for me is really what it boils down to.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

You are definitely not the first four to talk about the corporate fluorescent lighting and just the beige walls and yeah I mean I think for a lot of us well who wants that but it does it can very much impact your energy how you work um something else that fours are so good at and you know we'll we'll never know but they say Enneagram theory says that Steve Jobs might have been a type four and just his vision and that is very much um a a gift of a four is to have this vision for kind of what could be how do you see that showing up in the work that you do with a strong vision so as a blessing and a curse if I'm being honest because while it might be easy at times to walk a path that someone else has already walked and create a business structure that already exists I'm just not going to be I'm not going to be fired up about that.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

So even my membership uh I built that to be this combo of you know the education you'd expect from a mastermind but we have monthly joy sessions that are like painting or flower arranging or you know we're all going to a row class in Nashville coming up soon to just move our body. So that dynamic of like I want this to be unlike any other membership or mastermind I've seen and I want to like yeah I want to grow our businesses and learn new business skills but also I want to take care of ourselves and just ignite our creativity. So that's just one example but um it's a blessing and a curse because it means I'm always going to be paving my own path. It means I might not ever have anyone in front of me to really look at as an example of what is good and bad. I might have to learn some of those lessons on my own. But luckily I really don't have any problem with that. I'm really good at staying curious I'm I've I've gotten really good. I wasn't always don't get me wrong this is this is a lot of years of self-awareness work in the making but now I'm really good at at kind of like recognizing that me and my business we're two different things. It's not a personal insult if something doesn't go well. So that staying curious thing really saves me.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

So good. Okay and then um I'll do one more so fours tend to not really shy away from intensity passion. They tend to have a lot of conviction for that vision. How have you seen that show up for you?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Oh yeah um well I would say as far as like the conviction and the passion I would say how I've seen that show up in the sense that I've always been able to just leap. So that expression leap and the net will appear right I've always had no problems leaping like jumping off the cliff no problem. Right. So that's probably how it's shown up for me the most in the sense that like I have not overthought something. I have not let you know worries cloud my my ideas. I've really just run with it and and trusted I used to use the expression that I'm I think of myself like a cat. Like I'll always land on my feet because that's just my experience has shown me that I'm not I'm not I'm not living on the streets, right? Like I'm not struggling to put food on the table. So in that sense like I'm always going to land on my feet I'm always going to figure it out. I'm always going to be willing to put the work into it and I'm always going to have the resources around me to reach out my hand and say hey I'm struggling I need some help. Doesn't mean I've never failed it just means I know I've got enough people around me that nobody's going to let me really truly sink. And that's that's a that's a blessing do not get me wrong. But that awareness has allowed me to say okay I'm gonna run I'm gonna jump I'm gonna trust myself and I'm also gonna trust myself to know that if I'm drowning I know I know that I know to ask for help and I'm going to ask for help. And that hasn't happened very often but um but I mean I'd be lying if I said I've never had to reach out a hand and ask someone for help.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Of course I have you know yeah absolutely and then I know I said that was going to be the last one but I just I I do want to just mention this for any other people who might be resonating with this type four energy that um one of the other superpowers is this ability to sit with difficult feelings. Every other type on the Enneagram will tend to problem solve reframe positivity silver lining it right um and fours tend to just be like yeah that's really hard or like that sucks. And like how seen and heard would someone feel with that. And I oh I told you earlier I admitted that I was stalking you before the interview um and you had this um reel about with all these text messages from your clients just like thanking you and sharing their wins and I mean I think that that is such a testament of a really deep connection and and relate meaningful relationship with your clients. So I just wanted to to bring that up as well for anybody else and just you know notice and I guess um just see that in you anything else that you would share about the ability to to sit with difficult emotions um it's yeah when you when you say that I'm like oh yeah that makes sense um and and even like you know through through years of therapy my therapists of oh every therapist I've ever gone to has always said to me you're really self-aware and um and you're really calm.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

And um and I you know I I guess it's true but I've done a lot I've done a lot of work. Again I can't say that enough I I was not born this way I've done a lot of work and I'm still doing the work every day doing the work um and and really excited about the work to be quite honest which I don't know if that's the four or the three in me. I'm also a wing three so the achiever part comes out quite a bit. I'm like no I'm gonna figure this out um I'm gonna keep growing I'm gonna keep evolving um yeah but I you know being able to be present and authentic and hold space for my clients is you know it's it's what makes this feel so right for me. And for years I dismissed the notion that I should be a business coach. I I so I mentioned it before but I've had my own business coaches. I will always have my own business coaches. My first two business coaches I ever had both said to me Tiffany why aren't you a business coach? Like I know you hired me but like you know everything you need you you know everything I'm telling you. And you knowing and being able to implement are two different things first of all but I kind of dismissed the notion when they would say that to me because I just thought oh I'm still learning. I don't know what I'm doing yet you know I'm still learning. And um so when I finally did decide this feels right, I'm ready for this, I'm ready to own this space and take up space as a business coach. What was really, really important to me was that I could do it in a way that where I felt really authentic and where my clients could feel seen and heard as a person and not just a business owner. And so yeah to you know circle back around to that reel you were mentioning with the little text messages like it makes me so happy to have these like sure sometimes we're having really deep conversations sometimes they're sharing really big wins with me and sometimes we're just talking about like the outfit they're gonna wear to something and you know the earrings they just put on or something silly. And it just it makes it so much more fun and this journey should be fun.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

If it's not fun we're doing it wrong you know so yes yes yes yes okay um I'm gonna come back to just a couple of things in there in just a minute but I also want to talk about the sometimes the challenges and I don't know if you have experiences. So if you're if you want to share a personal experience or if you want to share a client experience as an example I don't ever want to call out our guests and make them open up their their diary and tell us their deepest darkest secrets but we all have them right it's not we all have these challenges and so again this isn't across the board but those that identify as a type four tend to have some common challenges. One of those is um really and as a seven I can relate to this too um is really being um uh just kind of put off by anything mundane so as a business owner the accounting the scheduling of the posts like I mean there's so many mundane things like it's just like oh my God I want to get out of bed and like be lit on fire and live my passion but that there's that but then there's also the other things that have to happen. So have you seen that show up for yourself and if so what are some words of wisdom that you would have for those of us who do struggle what tools resources do you use to help get through those yeah absolutely the accounting is not my forte I cannot stand being in QuickBooks.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

And so I have an accountant I have a CPA and an accountant right I have someone who's in there itemizing everything on a daily basis I mean on a weekly basis really and then I have a CPA who helps me with taxes. And uh in the beginning I was kind of trying to do my own spreadsheets and my own um QuickBooks and I'll spare us the long story. If you ever want to know just send me a DM and I'll tell you but um this would have been probably 2013 2014 we're going way back in the archives here but I had a learning lesson. I had a hard moment that I had to learn this lesson the hard way where I was not regularly checking to make sure that the deposits I was making were actually showing up in my bank account. I was just assuming that QuickBooks and my bank were connected and everything was communicating and everything was going as planned. So probably three months had gone by and I went to log in to my bank account and realized that this really large check from my handbag line had not entered my bank account. And I go into QuickBooks and anyway I get on the phone with QuickBooks and come to discover that they have deposited and been depositing my money for three months in a strange man's account in Arkansas. And it gets bad okay this is why it was a hard lesson to learn because at first the woman on the phone was like oh yeah I see that we've made a mistake let me try to draft this money back for you. She's like I'll do it in small for some reason she was going to do it in like multiple increments. So she did the first draft and then the guy shut his account down and and then it became a legal battle and QuickBooks quickly changed their tune and said nope this isn't on us this is on you you did this you put this account in in here this man's Arkansas bank account and I lost all that money okay it was a lot it was a hard and long battle and a hard lesson to learn and a hard pill to swallow and my attorney was like this is just going to cost you more money than you're gonna get back out of it. So I think we should just call us a wash so I lost all the money and I realized very quickly that um putting off the mundane tasks was costing me a lot of money. It would have been cheaper for me to just hire an accountant and I've had an accountant ever since. So for me the lesson is just like if you're noticing that something isn't happening, especially if it's a real important thing to your business like accounting, do not be afraid and don't think of it as a sign of weakness to need to outsource. So one of the common misconceptions that I'm really trying to poke a hole in is this notion that we have to do everything ourselves and that everything is figure out. I just think it's a dangerous slippery slope okay because could you figure it out? Yes. But is it going to be forcing you to potentially uh kind of get out of alignment and not be your best self yes so don't be afraid if something is really challenging especially if it impacts the bottom line of your business do not be afraid to find someone to come in and help such great advice such a good reminder.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

One of the other things that we can all struggle with as human beings, but fours sometimes tend to feel like they're like inherently defective. So ones and fours sometimes confuse one another because or get get mixed up because they really identify with that inner critic whereas a one typically thinks if I can just do better I'll I'll get there whereas fours tend just to think well I'm just forever like I'm just forever defective there's something wrong with me there's something missing. And I know especially when you go out on your own you're leading a team you're leading clients that can really be brought to light because you can compare yourself to everybody else. So how do you deal with the comparison and feeling like oh I just I don't measure up I'll never measure up like what have you had to do to kind of get to where you are now I really limit my input if you will I limit my exposure to um people that could potentially cause me to feel that.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

So again like if I'm on Instagram and I discover another business coach for creatives I'm usually going to have one of two one of two feelings. I'm maybe going to be like look at her she's awesome or he's awesome or they're awesome and you know I want to be friends with that person. Or I I'll I'm I'm self-aware and I can admit that sometimes it might trigger me. Sometimes I might look at them and think oh they are 15 steps ahead of me. And so because I know that that doesn't help me and they might actually be 15 steps ahead they might also be 15 years ahead of me right I I have become very aware of when it is okay to no longer follow someone or have someone you know in my inbox if it's just going to create some triggers like that for me. So we've heard this all before this is not new news this is not new advice but take control of what's coming in especially as a four take control of what's coming in so that you can give yourself the space and the freedom to have the ideas to dream and to not let those distractions and that that kind of like negative Nancy in your head potentially squash something that could be beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Okay so good. And then this one kind of ties into that again not just a four can struggle with this but this can be a core struggle for fours is um the is kind of taking things personally and so when a client says no or when somebody has a refund or how do you deal with that type of situation?

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Well two ways one is I still take it personally sometimes um and I have to just consciously tell myself the new narrative that I know is true, which is that it's not personal. There could be a million things going on behind the scenes that I'll never be aware of right. And also to know that I'm not for everyone is really freeing but also a work in progress because I want to be for everyone. I want to help everyone right um but I do recognize I'm not going to be for everyone and that's okay. The second way that I kind of overcome that is I now have someone on my team that takes care of kind of like customer service type requests. So she's in charge of membership renewals and membership cancellations she's in charge if anybody just needs anything um she's kind of in charge and she's like front of the line for me. So she's a little bit of my shield right and all she does is tell me on a weekly basis trends, here's what's going on a lot, you know, everyone renewed everyone went this person renewed and here's what she said was her reason why. So she's kind of you know filtering the information to me in a way that it feels safe for me to say okay I'm on a business call and receiving this information from a business perspective. Did we gather the information we needed to gather to understand if this was a me thing or a her thing and not me by me, meaning our business or her thing, right? Did we help her all in all the ways that we needed Help her? Was she looking for something we didn't offer? Like data, curiosity, right? So she's my filter for that. And before I had her in place, it was really a bit of a roller coaster because I did find myself taking it personally or getting frustrated when I felt like I had described something adequately and someone still had questions or you know, something along those lines. That's the mundaneess that I don't really love, right? So for me, it was about being able to take the leap and put someone on my team that I pay to kind of be my frontline. Okay, that is genius, Stephanie.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Absolutely genius. And um I yeah, I think that so whatever that is, but just thinking about what are those potential triggers or could could kind of set you off. And then how can you kind of work and navigate through that? Okay, I have two more Enneagram questions before we start to wrap this up. Um, and I'm actually gonna talk to well, and I do want to mention so the four has a connection arrow to the type one and the type two. And I love because you earlier you mentioned how you have grown into asking for help and leaning more on people. And that is one area of growth that the four can can tap into is using that two energy of asking for help, um, getting in touch with that. And so I love that you're you're doing that. The other arrow is the one um who could kind of be the polar opposite routine and structure and um rules and guidelines. Um, but it can be such a gift to the four to tap in, not to be a one, but to bring in that one energy so that their ideas and vision can be brought to life. I'm curious what is a routine, a structure, something you do every day, a tool you use that helps you tap into some of that one energy to be able to bring that vision to life.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah. So organization is like essential for me to creatively thrive. So for us, for my team, we use a program called Asana, which is a project management tool. And we have a workflow for everything. And, you know, I always think it's not good enough, but most people who come to work with me are like, oh my gosh, you're so organized. So I have to have that in place. I have to kind of be able to say, even my workspace, like my environment has to be pretty tidy and clean. I do not, I'm I'm not your typical creative. A lot of creatives are like fine with clutter. That is not me. I am like clean it up so that I can have, so that I can think, so that I can have ideas. If I if if there's a mess, all I'm thinking about is the mess. Um, and that's also because my dad was a neat freak growing up. And if you left something out, it got thrown away. So I learned that pretty hard, pretty quickly. But um, but systems and workflows have really saved me. And I actually love them now. Like I love sitting down and like polishing a workflow or um or creating that workflow and and giving it to my team and being able to say, now here's how we do this, and it's easy and everyone knows what to do. And um, that clarity is just so key for me to be able to birth all these new ideas.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Okay. And then I know you mentioned you must identify with a wing three and fours also have that five, which again kind of a lot of a lot of differences. Um, creativeness over here, uh, you know, and then the fives are really focused on the data and analyzing and research and tend to be kind of more numbers. Again, this is stereotypes, yeah. Um, but also very important as a leader, as a business owner. So, what are some? I know obviously accounting, we have talked about the importance of diving into that data. Is there any other piece of data that you find really important to tap into that you love to look into in your own business?

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Yeah, we study our data. I study our data pretty regularly. One of the things I love looking at is our email analytics because I'm proud to say we are now, we have grown our open rate to 44% on average from last year. We were at 31. And so that's just like a random number if you're not into email analytics. But for an open rate that's actually really high, and I've worked really hard at getting really creative with my subject lines and making sure that the content was really bingey or binge worthy so that we would see an increase in our open rate. So that kind of data excites me because it gives me um, well, it gives me a little bit of a dopamine rush because I feel like I'm doing something right, we're trending in the right direction. It also gives me some pointers on what to keep doing or what to do more of. Um, so we track that um email open rates, click rates, that sort of thing. Um, we track uh website numbers and data. Um, the only thing I don't really track on a data perspective, and honestly, it's just because time, if I'm being completely transparent, and also because it is the one number that I notice still triggers me a little bit, and that is Instagram. So I very rarely go in and look at my Instagram numbers from a perspective of like how many followers did I lose, how many did I gain? I have never found that to be serving of to me. I have never found that to empower me to do anything differently. I've only found that to feel like a gut punch. And so personally, for me, I just recognized that I'm just gonna keep creating content that I like and I'm still growing, right? So I'm not going to focus on who I'm losing and I'm just going to trust that if I'm losing someone, it's because it wasn't a good fit and the people I'm gaining are the right fit. Um, so that's the only data that I don't really study on an ongoing basis. Um, and don't feel the need to. And then, of course, you know, our metrics, our quarterly goals, our numbers, we look at that.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

But yeah, yeah. What a great, what great insight and just self-awareness. I think a lot of people are going to relate to the Instagram one that you mentioned. Yes. Um, okay, so I have a couple rapid fire questions, but I want to just kind of start to bring this to an end and have people learn a little bit more about what you do. Um, before that, though, I I guess a lot, I always have one more question. Um, we have talked a lot about this type four energy, your own experience running multiple businesses. I would very much say that you are a leader of a community of your clients online. Um, so in your experience as a leader, what do you see as something that all leaders need to have? Like what is what is what's a quality of a good leader, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Such a good question. Oh man, a couple of things come to mind and they all sound a little cliche, but a quality of a good leader, I'm going to circle back around to the concept of someone who is driven by a deep curiosity. Because I think if we're really curious, if we're curious about what's working, what's not working, if we stay curious about if our team or our contractor or our client is happy, not happy, thriving, not thriving, you know, et cetera. If we stay curious, then we'll always be one step ahead of the person who's not curious and just kind of like letting the ship sink. Um, so I would say curiosity, like that deep awareness that you circle back around. And this is a practice, right? We circle back around. How can I be more curious? I actually have five questions I'll walk someone through. If I notice a someone feeling kind of stuck around something, I'll walk them through these five questions. And it's a curiosity exercise, really. And it starts with like, what did we learn? And it ends with, where would we be if we hadn't made that mistake or had that experience or whatever it is? And it's so fascinating because the questions aren't complex, but yet it shifts the perspective to say, oh, I learned something here, or oh, I've grown here, or oh, now I know to do this, and I wouldn't have known to do that if we hadn't had this experience. And that's all just really about staying curious. So the other thing that immediately came to my mind that's very cliche, but yet relevant, is compassion, obviously. I think a compassionate leader is always going to be um more impactful because you're going to be able to have a stronger tribe around you when you are compassionate.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

They're so good. Okay. And you lead a community. I know you do consulting. I know that you host really luxurious and fun retreats. Um, and then you also have a community where you do coaching and kind of you mentioned the mastermind called the um up-leveler society. What is an up-leveler?

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Oh, I think an up leveler is someone who is committed to the finding more joy in the journey. She is committed to her true north and to um kind of the clarity and vision required to always be aware of what your true north is. She's a go-getter. Um, but she has a deep sense of self and awareness that life is more than just your business. Life is more than your bank account. Life is more than a healthy profit margin at the expense of relationships, family, joy. Um, so that's an up leveler, which I'm so glad you asked that because when I chose the name, I wasn't really, again, I just kind of leaped, leapt, you know, jumped off the cliff. I didn't do a lot of thinking. And, you know, somebody was like, Well, I would have thought an up-level is like a hustler. And I was like, oh gosh, no, we are not that. We are the opposite of that. Are we growing, you know, businesses and are we hoping to make a lot of money doing what we're good at? Absolutely. I would be lying if I said that wasn't a goal. But we also are very, very much under the belief as an up-leveler that more money means I can do more good in the world.

SPEAKER_02 54:25

So good. Okay. And then for anybody who wants to know more about the society and how to join in and just about you, where is the best place to connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Yes. So you can go to one of two places. They route to the same destination, either TiffanyKer.com or Uplevelersociety.com. Um, and you can learn all about me. You can learn about my one-on-one offerings, and you can also learn about the membership we just discussed. And the retreat we just discussed, we're going to Mexico for the next one, and then probably Italy for the one after that. Um, and those are just deeply restorative moments to be in a room with other women who you have something in common with because you're on a similar journey, and we're there to fill your cup and to again kind of like re, you know, reconnect to that true north. And I'm so excited. I'm going to be leading yoga, which will be really fun because I don't really teach yoga classes anymore. So I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 55:21

Yeah, there is something to be said about just being around other people, kind of working on their own big ideas and visions. Um, okay, so as we come to a close, I have three rapid fire questions for you. Um, they don't necessarily have to be rapid-fire answers, but I will do my best not to respond. So the first one is what is a book? We got a lot of book uh nerds around here. What is a book in the self-awareness, personal growth, business book that you have found really helpful or a recent one?

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Yeah. Uh I love self-awareness and business books. So this is really hard for me to narrow down. I know. And if you go to my website, you'll see a list of all the books I love, but I'm gonna stick with this one as the one that is like I think um revel, you know, really can change your life, but also probably not what you'd expect a business coach to say. Simple abundance. Ooh, okay. Simple abundance. Look it up, it's so good.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Abundance. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

And then um, you know, there's a lot of talk about success. And I know that we have touched on this a lot already in this interview, but curious if there's anything else that you would add to this idea of success. I think a lot of times initially we think money, title, six figures, certain amount of followers. Um, but what does being successful look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 56:47

For me, I believe the definition of success is whatever makes you feel like when you wake up in the morning, you're really excited about what's on top for the day. And that could be, you know, so many different things. But if you wake up in the morning and you feel like I'm really excited for the most part, of course, there's gonna be days where we have to do something like go to the DMV and that might not feel very fun. But if you're really excited about what you're doing, if you're passionate about what you're doing, if you believe in how you're showing up in the world and you're proud of that, I think that's success.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

And then I usually ask about a tool. You had already mentioned Asana. So I'm actually gonna, I'm gonna switch up the last question because fours do have such a gift for being a visionary, having a vision for whatever they're working on. What's the vision for your business, if you're willing to share?

SPEAKER_01 57:36

Yeah, my vision for the uh for my business is really for the up-leveler society to continue to expand and grow. I want to impact thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of women and empower them with this deep-seated understanding that they can be successful and make money doing what they love while also having a very joyful life that's no longer feels like they're all alone or um that they're having to sacrifice something for one or the other, right? So, with that being said, like I want the membership to keep growing. I have visions of some pretty large conferences down the road, more retreats down the road, um, more coaches inside the up-leveler society. So I'm not the only coach inside the membership. I bring in other experts that I work with over the years, and I want to just continue to grow the network of up-leveler society coaches and continue to have that positive impact on people.

SPEAKER_02 58:36

I appreciate all that you have shared, all your experience and then just being open about some of those type four strengths and some of the struggles. Um, I know listeners will have gotten so much from this, regardless of their type. So be sure and let Tiffany know what you're taking away from this episode. Um, as we come to a close, is there anything else that maybe I haven't asked you that you would like to share in order to make this episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_01 59:00

Oh gosh, I feel like we've covered all my favorite things. All of my favorite things. Um, I would just, my only thing I would love to add is just if you're not um as aware of all of the different Enneagram types, like maybe you know your type, but you're you don't know a lot about the other types. I would really recommend that you spend some time learning about the other types if you are a business leader, because I have found it to be so impactful for me to have a better understanding of the other types. And when I hire someone, I love to ask them or have them take the quiz and find out what their Enneagram type is, not because I want to put them on a box, but more so because I want to be able to lean into their natural skill sets and understand them better and understand maybe how they communicate, how they would receive feedback. Um, and maybe, you know, recognize that they might want to do something that I never even really thought of before. But if I look at their Enneagram type, I might recognize, oh, you might really in love, for example, like you might really love putting a system into place if there are five, or you know, or you know, pulling these numbers for us monthly or whatever it might be. So that'd be the only thing I would say is I've really loved learning more about the different Enneagram types and um and using that as I grow my team.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

So good. What a good way to end. Tiffany, I appreciate you so much. Thanks for being here. Thank you, Sarah. So fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Thank you for listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast. Sarah offers Enneagram assessments for employees and entrepreneurs and workshops for company teams and women's groups. To learn more about how Sarah can help you or your organization better understand people at work, visit EnneagramNBA.com.