SPEAKER_01 0:02

You're listening to the Enneagram NVA podcast to show the understanding people at work, including yourself, usually talking about the Enneagrams, sometimes talking about other resources and methods, but always bringing value and having fun along the way. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, Servant Enneagram coach, speaker, and workshop facilitator. And I cannot wait to see you inside. Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MBA podcast. I'm really excited for this conversation. Today I'm joined by Christy Rocha, who is the host of a show called SAS Says. And I cannot wait to get more into this, just out of my own selfish curiosity. But I know as the listener, you're going to get so much from this as well. Her show is, she has dubbed, I think it's the so creative, the therapy sessions we didn't know we needed, where she interviews therapists, shares some of her own experience in the therapy industry. And I thought, what a great compliment to a show talking about getting to know ourselves, whatever tools that may be, the Enneagram therapy. Um, so welcome to the show, Christy. I'm excited to have this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to learn more about all that you do as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Tell us a little bit about the show. Like what else would you add to my little summary about it?

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Sure. Yeah. I uh I think that it's worth saying that I started the show mainly because my whole life from childhood, uh, you know, through adulthood, everything on paper was really great, truly. And I still believe that, you know, I had great parents, I had friends, I had a loving sport system, education, all of it. Um, but getting into adulthood, getting married, buying a home, having kids, still again, all great things, right? Having a job originally I was in corporate, things just got really overwhelming and heavy. And I did not understand that therapy could be a resource for someone, quote unquote, like me. I understood therapy to be for anyone who suffered what would be societally accepted as, you know, a big T trauma. Um and I was like through different friends and you know, I I I believe in sort of that law of attraction. As soon as you start looking for something or you start thinking about something, you start being interested, all of a sudden you see it everywhere. And the more I was I was feeling like I needed help, therapy just kind of kept coming to me. And and I just on a whim, like looked it up on my insurance, and I found a therapist and I was like, whoa, this could be for me. And and moral of the story is I had all of the great things in life. I had all the support, all the knowledge, and the interest. Honestly, I've always been interested in the brain and psychology and this and that. And I still didn't get it that therapy could be something that I could utilize. And I thought, how many more women out there are like me who are feeling under the water, feeling like they're doggy paddling, feeling overwhelmed, and don't know enough about therapy or how it works to know that it could be useful for them. So that is the heart of the show and the the initial why. And now really it has turned into a full-on self-development journey for me that I hope and trust that people relate to because I joke that most of the episodes turn into a mini therapy session for me. Um, and I cover a range of topics. I I cover motherhood, I cover marriage, I cover ambition and finding your passion, I cover spirituality to an extent, and I cover what a big topic recently has been body image. So I interview therapists, coaches, um, anyone with an expertise in anything that I can relate to basically my mental health, because I assume then someone else can. And uh oh yeah, or just or just a mom or a woman who approaches me and says, I have a mental health story to share, and we do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I think that's so important because you know, I do think in the in the time that we're living, it is maybe more acceptable to to have those conversations, at least maybe with with your close friends, but even still, there's still like stigma or like this feeling of like, oh, we need to have it all together. And what like what you said, therapy is for people who have some sort of mental illness or something really traumatic that happened to them and the day to day, um, like you said, it's not for me. So um I love that, I love the idea of the show and then like bringing on those experts, despite you, and then just not despite, but and you sharing your own experience with that. You had you had said um helping people find their passion, and I know that there's a lot of anxiety around that, just out of curiosity, what has been like an eye-opening conversation or realization that you have had on that topic?

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Yeah, I, you know, I I'll I'll say this first that the first thing that comes to mind is that for me personally, I wouldn't have a show if I had not met my therapist because we spent many sessions figuring out what I'm gonna say and who I'm gonna say it to and how I'm gonna present it. I just was not happy in what I was doing. And so there was a lot of time spent ironing that out. Like, what is it? What are you gonna do? And so taking that to the show, I mean, man, I could I could relate. It's so funny, I could relate to so many different avenues to to that. I interviewed, I interviewed Megan Moran. She is the mom preneur guide, and she talks a lot about how as moms we still need to find something that's fulfilling for us, and how particularly being a mom and an entrepreneur come with its own very specific set of challenges. And the thing that really rocked my world about what she does is she only works full-time on her business two days a week. And like from the outside, I was seeing her everywhere, all the social media, all the podcasts. She does a retreat, like she does so much. And when she told me she only works two full days a week, I was like, whoa. Okay, the world of all of this is so possible for me because that is exactly how much time I allot to work, essentially. Um, and so that really shifted my perspective. And then of course, she goes into, you know, how she makes that happen, the time blocking, the, you know, the intention setting, the boundaries, the support. And so that was really insightful for me and really kind of like, whoa, okay, she can do it, I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Oh my gosh. I've had two conversations in the last week um with other moms trying to fit it all in. So that is absolutely one that I'll have to to link with that and very relevant in my own life as well. Um, and actually, one of the conversations, I'd be curious if you have anything to add to this or or feel free to disagree. But um we one of the conversations was around the people that we are following or had followed in the beginning, were well, men or single men um who did not have families and and other responsibilities, or just these the these people who were, you know, personal brands, but actually had a team of 15 or 20 people around them. And then we we were trying to to live up to that, and then just even now, like the stress of like, well, we need to do reels and LinkedIn and YouTube, and then also get dinner and laundry, all this stuff. And it was just like, oh my gosh, I'm failing literally at everything because I'm comparing myself to these people where I'm just not understanding the behind the scenes. So I love the idea of finding people um like what I'm sorry, say her name again.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Megan Moran.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Megan Moran, to kind of model instead of, you know, not that there's anything wrong with those people, but it's just like, well, that that's good, you're gonna have a different experience.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

So yeah, totally. I I think that, you know, the women that I try to bring into my circle and interview are women who are willing to be transparent about the level of help they have, the support, the systems. Because yeah, I mean, even myself, I I didn't withhold the information, but I don't broadcast that I have an editor for my podcast. I'll share it certainly, but I it just didn't occur to me as something to share. Like it didn't organically come up, but I've had women come to me and say, How are you doing all this? And I'm like, first of all, I I have an editor. So that whole technical process of slicing and dicing a show, adding the intro out show, all the things that probably take two hours, like I don't do. I send him the edits that I want him to make and he makes magic happen. And look, to your point, so many, so many people, whether they're creating podcast content, social media content, YouTube content, have at least one person in their corner, you know. Um, and and and I've definitely opened up a conversation on on my platforms every Thursday. I go live on Instagram, and it's part of what I'm calling the mental health for content creator series. And yeah, I'm just chatting with other creators of any kind, whether that's a podcast or you know, social media, or you're just a small business who, like you said, now has to make reels um and kind of sharing and and a little bit venting, honestly, about all of the struggles of putting content out there and staying consistent and following the rules and figuring out the algorithm and uh just the imposter syndrome, the comparing, the time it takes. Uh, we just sort of vent and and share secrets on that.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Well, and sometimes just to know that somebody else is having a similar experience feels so good because you're like, okay, maybe it's not just me. Totally. Something else going on here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I was thinking too, as you were talking, um, I interviewed Heather Chauvin. She is a coach for entrepreneurs, uh, mainly women. She has a book out called Dying to Be a Good Mother. And it's about her journey with finding out that she had very um advanced cancer, and a lot of it had come from stress of trying to do everything all the time. And anyway, the point of me sharing this is in our interview, she had me in full-blown tears because we got to this point of the conversation where we were acknowledging that there was this little voice in my head that was just whispering, like, not this, not this, not this. And we applied it and sort of had this breakthrough moment on the show of just like, okay, it's time for my kids to get in daycare. Like, I'm not happy doing mommying full time. I need the separation, I need the break. I don't, I don't want to be with them 24, 7, 7 days a week. And um, that was that was a that was a real breakthrough moment for me, just being able to admit that. And while it's not necessarily how I discovered my passion, it certainly has influenced and had a major impact on how I've been able to actually pursue my passion.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

So what um are some of the major themes of the challenges that your guests are sharing or that you're seeing? Like I know that you talked about your big buckets, and I know we're talking about one of them right here around content creation. Are there other common themes or common challenges, struggles that you're noticing that people are facing right now?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah, I think that something that always comes up is the need for slowing down. And I mean that like kind of literally and figuratively, right? Slowing down, you know, not letting yourself get caught up in the actual go, go, go of every day, taking time to intentionally plan for, like you said, that reflection, the intention setting, the goal setting, the journaling, which full disclosure, I'm not great at yet. I don't, I don't have a working journaling practice. I have the empty notebook right here, ready to go. It's gorgeous. And I got so excited to buy a new notebook and I even bought a new pen for it. But have I started using it yet? Sure haven't. Um, but you know, taking time to schedule that that downtime, that slow time, that thoughtful time for yourself. And also, you know, just even throughout the day, even if you are in an active activity, even if I'm in a moment with my kids, or even on an interview, even taking a second or two pause to slow my brain down a second. Either if I'm with my kids, it might mean taking a deep breath. It might mean looking at how small their hands are and remembering that they're little tiny people who don't have fully rational thinking brains yet. Um, or something like this where I'm taking a moment to collect my thoughts and having that be okay and not have the pressure of always having to be on all the time.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Another thing that came to mind just as kind of like the the busting through myths or not great advice that seems like great advice is the um like the the think positive or um yeah, just yeah, okay. Tell me a little bit about that. Like what's your take on it? What what's your experience?

SPEAKER_02 15:07

Yeah, I mean, so I think, and and I know we'll get into this, but part of me and my personality is you know, uh a running joke that my therapist and I have, and I've talked about it on my show, is that uh for so long, what I really wanted her to help me do was not feel. I would say, you know, this situation is super irritating to me. Um and how do I get to the point where it's just not irritating? And she's like, that's not really the point. Um the point is to feel the irritation and work through it and getting back to the the be happy, be positive. I've learned that we have to feel everything. We have to take, we have to lean in to hurt fear, discomfort, pain, suffering. And it's through leaning in that we learn how strong we are and we learn how much we can cope and deal, and we learn where we get support. And you know, so I guess that that really is my my stance on be happy, toxic positivity is it it doesn't work, and it ends up making me feel worse, honestly, because then it spirals into the shame and guilt of well, why aren't I just happy? Why aren't I just positive? And yeah, that it's it gets exhausting, it is, and it's not realistic, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Um, you know, I I identify most as an Enneagram type seven, and I've talked about this before, but um, we have a tendency in that stereotypical range to of very much lay on toxic positivity, like reframe everything, silver lining. Oh, my boyfriend jokes like you ran over a dog, at least you didn't run over two dogs, which is like it is, it is so toxic.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

And our and our brain and body know, right? Like our deep subconscious and our body know when we are just trying to convince ourselves that we're happy and everything's fine, versus when we deeply feel it and know. And so you're I find that I've you know, you're you're setting your body and your mind up to be kind of at odds with each other, which on a full holistic whatever I'm not a doctor, I'm not any of this. This is just what I learned from my experience that that is a lot of where the exhaustion comes in because your body is fighting your front of mind thoughts of everything's great, and your body's like, no, it's it's not, and we know it's not. Stop.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Is there any other like you know, I don't know, like advice or sayings that are like mainstream that seem like, oh yeah, that's so good. That actually, as you've gone through your own therapy journey and and maybe even done the show, you're actually like, that's such BS. Yeah, couldn't agree more or disagree more.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah, two two things are coming to mind. One is self-care. I talk a lot about self-care and just how how marketing and and media have taken what was originally, I think, a very well-intentioned movement of self-care and sort of manipulated it into a way to get women to spend money on luxury services and experiences and goods. You know, on social media, you'd have women believe that self-care is a spa day, a manicure, a shopping spree, a fancy dinner. And I absolutely adore all of those things. Like with my full body and mind, I love all of those things. But on a Monday, when my kids are in the middle of their fourth tantrum, I'm not just going, hey, peace out, I'm going to get my nails done. So I've had to shift my mindset and sort of relearn what it means to take care of myself. And, you know, example I always give is I am kind of famous for my walks to the mailbox. You know, I uh it's not, it used to be, oh, there's never anything good, it's all bills, whatever. And now it's like, oh, you know what? I need a break from this house. I need a break from Blippy. And I'm gonna take two and a half minutes to walk outside in the sunshine or the rain or the snow, whatever it is, and get my mail. And how exciting! Because that's two minutes where it's quiet outside. Um, and and yeah, just just little little things like that, ordering in instead of cooking sometimes is a version of self-care for me. I've recently just given into having my groceries ready for me to pick up because I'm in a phase of motherhood where my toddler insists on getting her own grocery cart and filling it with things we don't need. So I'd rather pick up my groceries from the outside of the store than go through that process once a week. Um, and you know, just just yeah, little things like that. And and the other thing that came to mind that really has surprised me a lot is um is is diet culture. And uh just oh man, it's still heavy for me, but learning so much about how from such even a young age, uh I was I was, you know, kind of do I say brainwashed, you know, into into diet culture. It's a it's an industry, it's a business. And I think particularly women, young women, uh I was a gymnast where half my body is out, and you know, and uh yeah, just really having to unpack how deep my own hatred of my body is and not even realizing it. And so that's been that's been a whole thing and a half.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Has there been a guest on or a topic that you have talked about that's like, wow, this totally validates how I've been feeling, or my it's another mind shift?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, I think the well, the first one that was like, whoa, um, was with Dr. Alexis Connison. She has a book out called The Diet Free Revolution. And she was my first, you know, kind of understanding and taste of what diet culture is and how it has really, you know, inserted itself into almost every aspect of our life. And so that was really eye-opening. Um, Uimeaguta is another episode that comes to mind where she just sort of hit me between the eyes. You know, we were talking all about the intuitive eating book and, you know, healing, food and body image journey. And I was telling her all the things that I've been thinking about, and she just like really just looked at me and was like. I think it's time for you to just start doing the work. And I was like, I was like, okay, Louine, okay, okay, you got me, you called me out. Um and and lastly, I think, well, not lastly, there's there's a thousand, but um Tara Brunette, this episode has not aired yet, but I am taking her course called Manifesting Dream Body. And it's all about manifestation and mindset and intuitive eating, and really just helping me break through a lot of my struggles and and challenges. And really, like I said, it's um this is no exaggeration, like hatred of my body. And um, I interviewed her last week, so that'll that'll come out in another couple of weeks, but really just getting her to deep dive that course and and the whole mindset piece of body image is is really been great for me.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Oh my gosh. So I bet these lists, our listeners are gonna be like, where can I find these episodes? I know that you have I and I love this, like you have them separated out into categories, or at least like get started here on your website, sasseds.com, like on that page, it's like pick a topic parenting, body, ambition, the intangible pregnancy marriage. I love that. So easy. So definitely have to check in to some of those episodes.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, you um when you asked me about you know some of the common challenges, and I mentioned, you know, needing to slow down, like the two other things I jotted down were you know giving yourselves grace and and that, yeah, the self-love, right? I mean, they're so cheesy and we hear about them all the time, but I have to tell you, I I never thought of myself as a person who who thought of and talked poorly to herself. Like I just didn't identify that way, and you know, I pictured it as someone who just like sits on the couch and like berates themselves, right? And and I never did that, but when I was coached and guided to take the time to after, for example, I eat just be listening. And it was mind-boggling how man, sometimes even I didn't have to finish eating, I was already like berating myself. You shouldn't have eaten that, you shouldn't have eaten as much. Um, or even, you know, I even just with my to-do list, right? Like you should have gotten that done. Like, I again, this is going to my personality too. Like, my to-do list is like a page long. And just yesterday, I I this is what I do. I make a to-do list. I'm the person that will put something on my to-do list, even if I've already done it, just to cross it off. But I typically have a very long to-do list. And yesterday I is a day where I'm home with my kids all day, and I started to do the thing where I'm like, okay, today the priorities are XYZ. And I would normally uh brain dump 15 things and I just I looked at it, I paused and I was like, what are the chances today that you're home with your four and your two-year-old, you get even three things done. So only write two things. And that way, at the end of the day, when you've done those two things, you feel like a million bucks instead of feeling like well, I did two things, but there's still 13 things left here that I didn't do. Right. And it's like those little, it seems like not a big deal, but I've spent 30 years doing it the other way, you know? And so yeah, it's it's all connected. It's that moment of pause of going, huh? What's realistic for you today? The moment of pause after I eat, before I eat, to say, Am I hungry? Do I want this? Do I not? How am I gonna feel after? And and then really trying to reframe the thoughts. You know, I spent years thinking pizza was a bad food. And last night I ate pizza and I'm like, like the whole time I'm talking to myself, going, This is really good. Like I'm enjoying this, this is wonderful. And the goal for me is for all of this to start to feel like second nature, it's still very much active work, but I hope to get to a point where you know, I don't have to every meal refrain because I'm just kind of at a base level loving place.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

So yeah, well, and you know, I think that that is that's the process. And and when we talk about, or when I talk about the Enneagram in certain situations, I'm talking a lot about like waking up to your tendencies and being on autopilot. And I think sometimes it's framed in a in a negative way that autopilot is like, oh, you're just sleeping through life. But I mean, there's so many things going on. We we absolutely have to be on autopilot. The problem happens when we don't open up the hood and check and make sure everything's right. Like, are we saying the right stories? Are we re you know, that kind of thing? And so it sounds like what you're doing is that like just stop. Like, let's look under the hood here. And then, like you said, eventually, hopefully, that will become the autopilot, the default mode. And that's okay, like let that run. But just this is like the time to check in on that. And it sounds like make some tweaks. Absolutely, totally agree. You talked about your to-do list. I I'd love to hear a little bit about your Enneagram type three experience. So, for those that may not be as familiar, maybe this is your type, or maybe you have a three in your life. Um, the three is known as the achiever, the role model, the motivator, sometimes the performer or the chameleon, because they have this ability to kind of shape shift and be whoever they need to be in that room or in front of that person, whoever it is. Um they their strengths are efficiency, um, strategic planning. They do tend to be natural leaders who love to goal set. Um, they are the model of hard work and hustle. I say this is the type that has the hustle harder t-shirt. Um, they bring passion and motivational energy to their office or their online communities, to their family, to their friend circles. Um, we'll get into maybe some of the challenges and struggles later, but what about this energy specifically speaks to you, Christy? All of it.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Um, I mean, just starting with achiever. I I when I think back on my life, I think about the the mile markers are the achievements. It's you know, making a certain level of team, um being a uh what am I trying to a captain of that team, you know, getting certain grades on certain test scores and taking a certain amount of AP courses, getting into certain schools, you know, getting certain GPAs, just always uh striving for the next thing and always needing to uh do what I perceived and what others perceive as being the best and being the most successful. Um and sometimes, you know, sometimes to my detriment, right? We'll get to that. But yeah, efficiency. Like I'm always I always need a plan. I always, you know, my my friend always would joke in in high school that I was like the queen of flashcards and note cards, and all of my study guides were color coordinated and organized in a way that helped me flow better and understand. And um, you know, I'm constantly organizing and reorganizing the house so that my morning flow is better. I don't have to go back and forth as much. Um, you know, yeah, planning. I don't like to be surprised. I I want to know what's coming and I'm much better off. Like even as a kid, I was the one that if I had to get a shot or an uncomfortable procedure at the doctor, it was like, I need to know every step of the way before you start it. Because then I can prepare and I know it's coming. Um yeah, I mean, and as far as like leadership, like I said, I've always been a team captain, I was a peer leader. Um, I led sales teams, moving more into adulthood. Sales, I know, is like part of that because of the whole chameleon thing. Like for sure. I can remember being heavily in sales and sort of, you know, finding that that thing that connected us and like leaning into it, you know, connecting us, meaning the client and really, you know, leaning in and to the point where they thought we were best friends by the end of it. Um yeah, hustle, like nothing. I'm hardest on myself. No one is harder on on me than than myself. You know, I'm it's funny because so much of what I've done in the last two years is to combat a lot of this, right? So I I relate to it all and I work at it all, but you know, uh it's it's hard, it's hard even to like talk about it a little bit because the hustle harder, the the never enoughness, I feel deeply. I'm never doing enough. There's always more to do. But I'm really actively trying to work against that and and show myself the grace and compassion that we were talking about earlier. Um but you know, the the passion, the motivation, I think that all, you know, relates well as far as all of the positions that I've said that I've held in my life and and now with my show, right? Like really wanting to help people, wanting to be a voice for someone who doesn't have a platform, um, and knowing where I'd like to take my show and knowing that I would like it to be, you know, speaking engagement, a book, a platform, a personal brand, like the whole nine yards. I mean, that all that all fits.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

It absolutely does. And then it also like some of the things that you've already touched on are examples, I think, of of growth. And one that jumps out is like the quiet walk to the mailbox. And for a lot of threes, and and I will say too, and I've said this anytime we talk about the three, I think we have a ton of type three um energy in the United States culture. And so I think most people from standard, society, school, you know, it's kind of set up with that, with that energy. So we can all relate to that a little bit, but it's it's very deep for for the three. But they have this um tendency to want to be like effective, productive, efficient at all times. And so an example is like, I'm gonna listen to a podcast in the shower so I can just get the most out of my day and constantly be productive.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Like one of the things that I've had to really deal with is relating like with food and body, and like I actually saw eating as a waste of time. Oh yeah. I had to actually because exactly it was like I could be doing something else right now, and then I would just grab, you know, a bar or something that's easy and doesn't take a lot of time, but it's not as nurtur nutritious and not as fulfilling and not as all the things. And so, you know, but yeah, even I have actually this is so funny you say that. I have set a goal for myself that I will have an undistracted lunch when my kids, especially when my kids aren't home. Like I will not pick up a book, I will not pick up my phone, I will not have the screen open for the time that I'm eating because it's I I see it as a waste of time. Yeah. I always need to be too if I'm I'm gonna go for a walk later and I'm gonna listen to a podcast that's self-development. I won't just take in the birds and the bees. No, I need something that is like killing two birds, one stone, done.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yes, yeah, get the most, get the most. But uh, or I should say, and another example of that though, is that you know, let's get the groceries delivered. And that's not necessarily, you know, a bad thing. It's like we can bring in the gifts, the strengths, that that efficiency. And I know you're doing it because you don't want to take your kid to pull off stuff from the shelf. I 100% feel that, or like you don't want to push the like the ginormous um cart with like the the car on it that's like incredibly hard to see.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Oh my god, it's like driving a Subaru through the or suburban. I was gonna say suburban through the store.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah, so I get it. I get it. And also like that's just like how can we make our lives, you know, easier, like where regardless of what type you're you're identifying with, more efficient, but then also noticing where it starts to shift into kind of self-sabotage or in an unhealthy way. The other thing, oh, let's see, I was gonna ask you about that. I know that I brought up um goal setting, model hard work. I will say too, something else that you mentioned at the at the beginning was around feelings and emotions. Oh, this this was it, I think. Type threes, I don't know if you how much you've read about this, but this is for those that maybe don't know as well. Um, threes are in that feeling center of intelligence where they say, like, twos, threes, fours have a tendency to lead with their heart, lead with their feelings. However, threes feel things, it's just they feel them and then immediately push them to the side because they're unproductive. It's getting in the way of the goal. Does that resonate?

SPEAKER_02 36:15

You know, yes, yes and no, right? Like, yes, it's hard because I do think of myself as a very emotional person. And I feel a lot of feelings, and I am the one in my friend group who pushes for the deep conversation. I've but it's a but it's because I don't have time for surface level. I'm like, this is this is I could gather the surface level information from Instagram. I want to know how your relationship's doing. Yeah, I want to know if you're you know crying when you take a shower because you're miserable in the morning. Like, I I don't want to know about the apple picking you did last week unless it had an emotional impact on you. Because, you know, I just I'm like, I don't have time, just get real off the bat.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah, let's jump in, let's dive in. There's a little bit, that's some four energy there too. Um, I don't know if any of these resonate. These are common tendencies where threes may struggle more than others. One of them is coming across as impatient when they talk to their teams or their groups or even their clients. Threes, sevens, and eights are in this like assertive stance. And I actually just did a workshop last week, and a woman talked about how, like, when people are having a conversation, kind of just talking about surface level details or getting too detailed about a story. She literally is like this. I you can't see what I'm doing, but I'm like rushing my hand kind of along because she's like, let's get to the point. I'm nodding profusely, like yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Oh my gosh, get on with it.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Right. Um and they can feel like no one will do it as good as they can. So they may struggle with delegation. Sometimes they can be dismissive or frustrated when they do feel like somebody is wasting their time. Um, and then they can ignore others' feelings, which we just kind of talked about, or their own in order to get the job done. Again, sometimes this comes across as like, I feel this, but like we don't have time for it right now. Move to the side, come back later. The problem is, and that's necessary sometimes, right? But the problem is when you don't circle back. So, what out of that does do any of those challenges or struggles really stand out to you?

SPEAKER_02 38:34

Yeah, I I just this week in therapy, I was telling my therapist that I had a situation with my friends where, you know, I asked we were at dinner and I asked them to go around Robin and you know, tell us something about the relationship and this and that. And we had this like really, really great, vulnerable, like open conversation. And I was sharing with her that I was reminded that it has always been my role to facilitate this level of depth in our relationship. Like I am the glue, I'm why they all know each other, and I always push for that level of conversation. And and she asked me if I was okay with that role. And I said, you know, I I absolutely love that role, but it occurs to me who does it for me. And I shared with her that we went round robin, but that I went last. And I sort of like when I it was my turn to share, I sort of just was like, okay. Anyway, so, and it's not because I'm scared to share, like I have a whole podcast about all my issues. It just was like, I know my issues, I know what I need to know, I have my therapist, I have all the things, like let's keep it on you, you know, and I think that speaks exactly to that. Um I definitely felt deeply the the waving of the hand, like let's go, yeah, the let's go. I if if there are details of a story that are actually not relevant to the end goal of the story, I'm like, no, you've lost me. Um I definitely can struggle with delegation. I certainly think I do everything the right way, unless it is like if I'm super interested in something, I want you to have no part of it. If I could care less about it, I don't care. Take it all. Um I don't die for it. Right, right. I don't know. It's not, I I'm controlling, but not over things that don't matter to me. I'm not controlling for the sake of being controlling. It's controlling because if I'm into it, I certainly want to know it's it's done right. Um and you know, dismissive, the the honestly, the the example that came to mind is is there are times where my husband will suggest we do something when it says it comes to our kids, like he'll, you know, I don't know, he'll be like, hey, can we switch their applesauce to pudding? And I'm just like, no, you know, and he's like, What like he like I don't know, I'm trying to like say it without saying it right. But basically, a a common struggle in our house is that he feels like I just dismiss his this his suggestions without talking about it. And it's like in my mind, I've already gone down the road of this. And if I needed or wanted your opinion, I would have asked you.

unknown 41:40

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

And that's not to say everything, right? I certainly value his opinion. I value his opinion greatly if he ever listens to this. Um, and there's certainly things where I really lean on him for his expertise and opinion and knowledge, but there's certain lanes, as I will call them, in our life where I appreciate you, but I've already done all the rabbit holes on this. And so when he brings it up, my literally my impulse is like, absolutely not, you know, and he's like, uh, I'm not an employee. Like, we need to just just do me the favor of humoring the conversation for at least like a 30 seconds. And I'm like, fine, you know, like I do that for love. Okay. But otherwise, no.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's again, it's just like, okay, I know that I do this, I know that that's my partner is not like this, or maybe my a teammate or employee, whatever situation you're in. And it's like, okay, I may have to adjust because I know this is a thing I do. So yeah, that's I know it is so interesting. The last kind of Enneagram-specific question is one of the most helpful pieces that I hear from my clients, especially in the typing process, is the understanding of the stress arrow or your stress type that you go to. And for a three, they have a tendency after they have depleted their own coping mechanisms, defense strategies, they will make a lateral move and not become a nine, but take on some of the nines stress coping mechanism tendencies in those situations. And for a three, what that might look like is you are so productive, so busy, constantly moving that in a burnout time in your life, um, where you're in that nine space, you actually numb out. You become disengaged, you might withdraw, you might become um apathetic, kind of like using Netflix, maybe to to to cope. Um, even self doubting, right? Um, can happen in those burnout moments. And I typically have have heard from threes who are do tend to have it or at least look on the outside like they have it all together. They're doing a lot. They're very busy. But then also, and it's been really, really cool on this podcast and then just talking with people, they will kind of open up about a burnout moment that was like a wake-up call. Sometimes it's multiple burnout. Um and this can happen to anybody, but I know for threes it's very much like I just couldn't do it anymore. Has that happened to you? Does that sound relevant?

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Yeah. Yeah. I mean I I definitely can certainly I can certainly get to the point of numbing out. And and immediately what came to mind was that's when depression kicks in for me. That burnout moment came came summer of 2020. I had a two and a half year old and a six month old and we're in lockdown unsure of everything COVID, pandemic, all of it hadn't seen any family, any friends, no support, no babysitters, no tummy time, no library, no nothing. And we're day in and day out doing this thing with these kids home alone every day um and still getting up two, three times a night to feed and just exhausted and um yeah that that that that moment came hard, you know, because again as an achiever things like that don't happen to me. I don't find myself in a place where I can't start the day without a good cry. I don't find myself in a place where I'm exhausted before I even wake up because I know what's coming in my day and I'm already dreading it. And I I really can and then find myself in a position where things that would normally bring me joy I'm indifferent towards. Yeah. And there are days certainly where days or weeks periods of time where you know my husband will come home and I've put the kids to bed and it's 7 30 and I am in bed. And it's not because I'm physically tired. It's because I can't think of anything else to do. Like there's nothing else that feels right. So rather than try to keep miserably pushing myself through an activity or something, you know, a show that is just going to irritate me, it's just easier to shut down and and get under the covers in a dark room. So you know all of this is is about you know experiencing that that place and and not want wanting to do what I can to not get there often um but it but it happens. It certainly happens um yeah but I mean that yeah back then it happened more often right um but as the kids get older as as life started to open up again I mean that was a whole other transition as life opened up like that was anxiety provoking and all the things but um you know as we get them into a little bit more school and I start to find a rhythm um you know that happens less often but it it is what happens.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Thank you for being so open about that because I know that you are absolutely not the only one that has felt some version of that. So um a lot of people are probably here nodding along um what is something that helps you and maybe it's maybe it's therapy but I should say is there anything else that you use to help you kind of deal with those stressful moments when you're feeling overwhelmed um what a tool a community resource anything that maybe we could learn from your experience and possibly incorporate into our own lives?

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Yeah I I don't I would not say that I have a meditation practice. I am not a regular meditator but there are times where if I have that feeling whether it's in the middle of the day or at night where I'm being pulled to the dark room in my bed like that's feeling like where I want to be I will say to myself put on a five minute meditation and see how you feel and there are days where that's exactly what I need I just need five minutes of rest. I will close my eyes I'll listen to the meditation and I literally just like Google or YouTube a five minute meditation and pick one. And there are days where by the end of that I feel like okay I I could nap I need I need to sleep or it's it's not enough right it's not always enough but point is is that in those five minutes I'm giving myself the the rest and and the stillness to really look inward and say what is it that I need um and and yeah like I said I've heard meditation from everyone and but I'm not a girl that wakes up and and Nama stays crisscross applesauce every morning in a in a perfect space. It's just when I'm feeling down when I'm feeling like I just want to crawl into a ball like I will call upon that as something you know to try first. If possible I will try to get outside and that is where the mailbox walk started because you know especially when my kids are home I can't necessarily go for a half hour walk. And if you have toddlers you know that sometimes walking with your kids is the least relaxing thing in the world. So I started walking to the mailbox um breathing breathing honestly sometimes I will get in the shower a really cold shower for just a minute or two and that feels good. Um it usually starts with just saying what do I need yeah oh so good yeah good I think if there was something else yeah I think you know it it could be any it could that's the that's the base of it right because then sometimes it's well actually huh no wonder you feel like crap you've only had coffee today right you need to eat you know and so it just depends on on on what's going on but it all starts from whether it's the true five minute meditation or just stepping outside for a minute and and talking to myself and asking what I need.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

That is such a great question and not to make everything about the Enneagram but I I think sometimes it can be a tool to help us create a checklist to to try because sometimes it's like what do I need I don't know what I need and it's like oh my gosh I have a tendency to do this maybe I need a rest or you know and so it just helps you put language and and additional insight. So I such a powerful question.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

And I'm glad you said that because there was a time where I would have heard that ask what you need and I would have been like well now what? And so totally I'm I'm past that point. Like I know the things that I can do once I ask the question but there was a time where I didn't so I I appreciate that and I know of many people who actually have a list written down and they stick it in a shelf on a bookshelf and when they're starting to feel something they'll literally pull out the list and go, do any of these feel good right now? You know, whether it's read a book or take a shower or take a walk or have some water or meditate or you know call a friend, whatever it is um just so that they have that list to pull from.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Yeah. So so smart so smart. One of the other things and we don't have time to get into this in the amount of questions that I had but the other thing that threes are excellent at as we've talked about are are that goal setting and what I what I love and I I thought was such a good example um that you're setting is that you have this podcast and then I'm gonna ask you about your a specific goal here in just a second that you have for for your personal brand or or the show. But I what I think that I just wanted to pull out from that is that um sometimes again depending on who you're following or what sort of advice you're taking in or just the expectations that you have for yourself it feels like I'm failing if I don't have 10,000 subscribers an email list a freebie a YouTube channel and then I'm speaking and you know a course and what you know all these things. I'm just like oh my gosh that's so much. But here you are you know have other things going on motherhood, wife, being a friend, potentially this other business and this podcast that you have a vision for, but you're not necessarily doing all 20 of those things just yet. And I I I think that that can be really inspiring actually that um it it's not like you have you know a $10 million business right now. But sometimes we feel like we should have that and something's wrong with us. So I love it's like hey I'm curious at least this is what I'm seeing. And then please feel free to add in the the background to this but it's like hey I'm interested in this topic. I'm not a therapist but I'm interested in learning from them. And so it's not even we have to be the pressure to go off and get a certification or another degree. It's just what are you creating what are you curious about? How can you curate that information? And honestly like that's such a leadership thing to do. It's like I'm pulling together these resources and these people and sharing their stories and serving it up on a really easy platform like a podcast and here and then being open with your own experience. And I I just thought that I I just love that you you do that. I think that that's can be really inspirational and and a and I and a specific idea for somebody who's like I don't know where to start um I don't love my job I want to start a business on the side but I I don't know what that is is like well maybe start with this podcast potentially or a blog or you know so anything else you want to add to that or I I got wrong feel free to I know I I I yeah no it's it's spot on I mean I have I've considered going and getting a degree and and most of the people in my life think I should but um yeah it's it's for me it's recognizing what I don't know and just really knowing that if I don't know it other people don't know it.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

And so how do we all learn it? And it's sort of that of that efficiency piece of I want it all in one place. Yeah I don't want to have to go to 35 different podcasts and books even though I do listen to hundreds of podcasts and read all the books but really ideally I want it all in one spot. I want to learn about my marriage I want to learn about my kids I want to learn about my body I want to learn about how to launch my business like all in one place and the connector for me was mental health. So it's not a business podcast it's not a parenting podcast but we take those things and we look at them at from the point of view of maintaining or or bettering your mental health because for me that's always what it comes down to. I cannot be the wife or the mom or the business person that I want to be if I'm in bed under the covers with the lights off. So you know whatever I want to do in my life whatever anyone listening wants to do in their life you know to me it starts with the mindset starts with the mental health um you know the other thing I was thinking as you were talking about the fact that I have a show and like the like what the level of success is right and the followers and the subscribers like that is big for me. And I've said this on the the Mental Health for Creators live series you know I'm like on one hand I'm creating content to help people on the other hand I'm refreshing daily what my downloads are and I'm checking how many people like that post and how many followers I've gained that month and no shame it's important to me I want to see it go up. I want to because to me that equates to influence that equates to yeah it's validating it's validating for me and and that's how I view someone as getting something out of what I'm doing I know plenty of creators who are completely and wholeheartedly fulfilled by a single DM a week that says thanks for what you do that would be very fulfilling for me and then I'd go okay let's go for two DMs you know like it's yeah and I have to catch myself and I have to work on that and and something that my my therapist always reminds me when I'm in a mode like that I'm in a headset like that like wanting more she's like you have a podcast with almost a hundred episodes out like two years ago you didn't even know that you wanted a podcast you know and so whether it's my therapist or my husband or hopefully I get to the point where I can remind myself that but yeah it it's it's it's celebrating those it's celebrating what I have um that I don't know it's like it's it's different than gratitude right but it's looking at a milestone and not seeing it as not enough at the as the next and just celebrating it for what it is.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

That is very much the work of those in that assertive I know future focus especially the three yeah yeah and and all of us again um so I I'm glad you said that's such a great way to start kind of wrapping this up I am curious though what is the next not to perpetuate that but what is the next thank you what is the next goal that you're excited about for for the show um for yourself you know I I I I'd like to do an in-person event um and I I have the the you know privilege I guess of of having a mom who has a podcast and has a business and has done all the things I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

So I don't have to reinvent the wheel and she is someone that I look to to be like huh you did that all right I'm gonna do it too. And we also would like to work together. So I think that you know I I'll be a part of some things she has going on and she'll be a part of some things that I'd like to see happen for myself. Like I said a live event I'd like to do some speaking um I think there's a book in here somewhere but I I uh you know I'm wary of that because you know it has to be the best book um and I certainly know that I don't know everything that I I'd want to know yet before I write that book um but yeah I don't know I I I don't fully know to be honest I there's parts of me that wants to not be the person but to be the person that connects people to like really make global societal change for mental health maternal mental health um you know I I I think that a a counselor should be in the office of every OBGYN I think that a six week postpartum ob visit should be followed by a six week therapist visit. I think there's certain certain um systems and things that we have in this country that are not setting us up particularly mothers and women for success. And so I don't know that I'm the person to go down to DC and and be that person but I'd like to say you know hey who are you who can do that and I'll connect you with this other person who really wants to do that and I'll just be the loud one in the back saying listen to us um so so I don't know I don't know it's a little of a like all over the place answer because it is a little all over the place right now. I also really enjoy the the the lens of content creators I think that you know the next generation small business owners you know the mom next door like everybody's creating content and there's so much that goes into it that we're still not talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

So I I like that avenue could see going that way you know I don't know I don't know so many possibilities yeah we'll get there yeah well and I think it just it's like well you won't know until you start and then it is like you wouldn't be here if you hadn't had those 100 episodes and so it's just a a reminder to to get started even if you're not sure what the end exactly looks like yes I have a um a thing here on my desk it says it says launch fast adjust later so so good yeah like I will be the person that needs it to be perfect to the point where I'll never do it. So it's like all right get it out there this is what the podcast is about today and if I need to adjust it a year from now so be it right right yeah and you'll only get that by going through it and and knowing what you need to adjust.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

So good reminder for all of us um I have a couple rapid fire questions to close it out but before we do where can people listen to the show connect with you let you know what they're taking away from this episode I'm everywhere at Sass says so from primarily Instagram at Sasses I dabble with TikTok um again at Sass Says and my website is sass.com my podcast is available either through my website or on all the major platforms and it is called Sasses and like I mentioned you know right on her homepage she has those categories that seems like a great place to start like oh what yeah what do I want to start with so I love that you organized it like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:12

What is and I know you have a whole page on your website what is a book or resource or let's start with a book what is a book that you would recommend to listeners in the mental health category personal development self-growth I know it's gonna be hard to narrow it down to one I know I know and I'm I'm like looking up at my shelf here or one that you've read recently that was surprised you maybe that was better than you thought what's a tool like an app or software or any tool pen and paper tool that you use to make your life easier more productive um okay I might be kind of aging myself with this a little bit because I don't know if this is obvious but on my phone I learned what a widget is and I have the Google Calendar widget on my phone.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

So it like I don't know if you know what I'm talking about but it shows up bigger I'll show you after so I don't like take up the phone. It shows up almost like of the equivalent size to four apps. And so it's like really easy to just click on it and and and or not even have to click on it and like see what's next. And that that really helps me manage my anxiety uh because I just I can click and I know and everything goes in here is you know on a regular basis I'll just put in as an event like nap time as an event. And so and I don't even mean my nap time it just means that when my kids are napping these are the things I'm gonna do um or I'll put my workouts in or I'll put you know even dinners out or something like that in so that anytime I'm on my home screen it just what's coming next is there and I don't have to worry because I think that's been hard. You know I'm like I'm certain days where I'm with my kids fully and then I'm certain days where I'm work mode and I had so much anxiety about forgetting what was coming on the work day especially if it was first thing in the morning like it's like I gotta know if I need to get my kids off to daycare and then I'm right into something or if I have a few hours. And it's so nice to just I'm beating a dead horse but open it and it's like right there. I don't have to dig I don't have to nothing I don't have to remember to look like it's in my face.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

Last question um is around success and what does that look like for you oh god it's a loaded one you know I I really just it's like I want to be uh

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Like how we talk about raising well-rounded kids, like I wanna be a well-rounded adult. I wanna be an adult that feels great in her body, shows up to work excited and energized, has passion and and love in her relationships and has a level of self-awareness that she's comfortable with, but not enough that she's feels like she doesn't have anything left to learn. You know, I I just want to like I really at the end of the day, I just want to wake up and and feel good about myself and what I'm doing every day. And even when it's hard, knowing that, you know, to to quote to quote Glennon, we can do hard things, you know, like I just wanna be a like a real a well-rounded adult. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

And it would include, it would include having, you know, a successful business. And by successful, I mean known. I do, you know, I want to I want to be known. I don't want to be like famous, but I want to be known within a community of people that want to know me.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

Do you know what I'm saying? Good. Yes, yes. I think you put to words um how a lot of us might be feeling with with that. Is there anything else that you would like to share that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to mention in order for this episode to feel complete?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

You know, the only thing that I think kind of ties into all of the personality stuff with me, and I wouldn't have necessarily framed it this way in other conversations, but you know, taking notes as we're talking and kind of seeing it all on one piece of paper is all of all of the aspects of my type threeness, the the, you know, for lack of a better way, the positive and the challenging to of those. That's all what contributed to me having so much fear and shame around asking for help. And now that I've asked for it in the form of a therapist and in other ways from my, you know, my personal support system, and I'm by no means perfect at it. I still have days where I think you got this, just handle it. You know, all of this is what contributed to not feeling like I could and not wanting to. And now in hindsight, it's like you know, that was silly. You know, people want to help you. You're better off for it. And everyone that you thought you were being strong for is also better off for it. So it's okay to ask for help.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

What a good way to end this. So, Christine, thank you so much for all you shared for being so open. I know so many people are going to be able to relate, maybe not to the exact same situation, but to the feelings, whether you're running your own business or trying to juggle a career. Um, so I appreciate you being here and getting to hear about your experience and your insights. And uh, listeners, definitely reach out, connect with her, and let her know what you're taking away from this one. Yeah. So thank you so much. Real quick before you take off, I have a favor. Would you be willing to share the episode or the show in general with one or two of your fellow Enneagram enthusiasts or personality assessment fans in your life? Even just sending it to one or two people helps tremendously with continuing to grow the show, expanding the reach, getting different guests on, talking about new and different topics. And so it would not only mean a lot to me, I would appreciate it, but it really does help significantly. So thank you so much for your support, and I will see you back here soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:05

Thank you for listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast. Sarah offers Enneagram assessments for employees and entrepreneurs and workshops for company teams and women's groups. To learn more about how Sarah can help you or your organization better understand people at work, visit EnneagramNBA.com.