SPEAKER_00 0:00

Decisive. Um, again, you're making decisions fast, things are going quick, you don't have time to think about it. And I see that I do that in the uh regular world too. My son and I went to buy a car one time and I made a decision over about five minutes which car I wanted to buy. I mean, they weren't even located together. I had to call different people. I had, you know, it was a very uh kind of involved process, and I just said, that's the one, you know. And he was like, wow, you make decisions fast, mom.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Welcome to this special Veterans Day episode here on the Enneagram MBA podcast, where we are going to hear from veteran officer in the Army and Air Force, Vicky Johnson, who is also currently the owner and CEO of VJ and JJ property management out in Reno, Nevada. And also hearing from her as an Enneagram type three or maybe an Enneagram type eight. And so this conversation is going to be focused on helping narrow down the type the two types, three and eight, and then also hearing about how her military experience has influenced her behavior and thoughts and feelings, uh, and how she shows up and work and life because of that, and how it's maybe flavored her personality over her 30-year military career. We are also going to be using a report by a major Trevor P. O'Malley from the US Army called War and Man Finding Practical Value and Psychological Theories for the Military Professional. And I'll link that in the show notes if you want to check it out. It um, let's see, Major O'Malley was part of a school of advanced military studies out of Fort Levinsworth, Kansas, and published this 65, 64-page report back in 2017. And so I think those of you who have some Enneagram enthusiasm in you will find this really interesting. It actually talks about different military examples from all nine types, the different military personalities and how they see that show up in different roles for all nine types today, because Vicky most identifies with a three and an eight. We're really going to focus the conversation on those. But for anybody who wants to dive in deeper, I will link the copy of that report um in the show notes there. And um, we'll be using some of Major O'Malley's definitions about the types to kind of frame the conversation and get us all on the same page throughout the episode. And then we'll get to hear about how it shows up in real life from Vicky's specific work and life experience. You're listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself, usually talking about the Enneagram, sometimes talking about other resources and methods, but always bringing value and having fun along the way. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, certified Enneagram coach, speaker, and workshop facilitator. And I cannot wait to see you inside. To kick off our interview, I asked Vicky what resonated most with her about the type three energy. And you're going to hear a handful of key qualities and how she saw those type three qualities show up in her military experience and some in her life today. For those that may not be as familiar with the type three energy, just to make sure we're all starting from the same place, I'm going to share the overview of the type three that Major O'Malley shared in his report here. And he said that ambitious threes are motivated by being successful, distinguished, and admired. They fear rejection, failing, or just simply possessing an unsuccessful image. Generally, you'll find these threes to be very charming, competitive, productive, and efficient. And that is true. We talk a lot about that uh with our threes. They move quickly into motion, they learn best by doing and are very capable. And you might even see them enjoying um handling a high amount of work stress. They are capable, confident, very goal-oriented. They're going to be top performers, whatever they do. And they can adapt their style or their response to others, depending on the situation and who is in front of them. And when threes do this with humility, you'll find them being excellent coaches and mentors, inspiring others to reach the high heights that they themselves have achieved. And I don't know if you'd call this a fun fact or just, you know, a fun thought. Um, but Major O'Malley shares a military example of each of the type threes. So I'll share. He had put General MacArthur as the type three example for his qualities, um, with his success in the Pacific, with being um with doing his work, being resourceful with very few resources in Europe. And it earned him a long-lasting and successful image. He tended to be very confident in his abilities and sometimes uh adversarial with those he saw as competition. So now let's hear what Vicky had to say about her experience with the type three energy.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Okay, so this is kind of the self-talk of a three. The word, the world values winners. I must succeed at all costs, I must avoid failure, I am what I do to earn my place. I must be able to, I must be the best at what I do. And boy, that was sure true. Um, in many cases in the military, when I was on active duty and doing different things, um, we, you know, we had to excel in all that we did. And we and the military really taught us don't, you know, don't let your weaknesses be known so much, but just bring out the strengths, I think. And um the gifts of the Ngram three, I'll just run through those really quick. Umbition. So that's one that you know, they want military people, enlisted and officers both to be very ambitious, um, efficient. Uh, okay, you want to be resourceful, you want to be able to get the job done. Um, and you might not know how to do the job, but you're still have got to get the job done. Um, adaptable. So you're adapting as you like start the job, you don't know what's going on, and then you get in there, you do the job. So you're adapting along the way as you go, and then finally you get to be more of an expert as you've done the job for a while. Um, driven. You just have to be really driven and everything that you're doing while you're, you know, all this is going on, whether you know the job, don't know the job, you still have to keep track of what your goals are and to keep driven. And then results-oriented. Well, the army and the air force are very much, they go off of quotas for everything, like 95% done here, 85% done there, you know. So they're always looking for different results, and then your own results as well, like you're taking tests or you're being involved in, you know, groups that are doing things and performance and you know, of how things are functioning, that kind of thing. So everything is being evaluated all at the same time frame. Um, those were things that I thought were really important to bring out.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

I then asked Vicky about the type eight. What about the type eight was resonating with her? And so you'll hear in just a moment what were some of those key pieces that she sees in herself now and were influenced by her military experience. We're gonna go back to Major O'Malley's description, though, just to lay the foundation for the eight. So we're all on the same page and understanding what makes an eight an eight. He said the eight seek strength and power. That is the core of an eight. They fear being controlled or being dependent on anybody else. They may be blunt, aggressive, and thrive in the midst of tough competition. So, right away, we can see why there is uh confusion sometimes between the three and the eight. We're we're, you know, both are very capable of handling a tough comp competition, a difficult challenge, and may even enjoy navigating through that. He said the eights are the champions that set out to dominate and prove themselves. They will gravitate towards like-minded individuals and lose respect for those that fold under pressure. And that is something that I have heard as well. High performing eights will take initiative and they'll motivate others by their own powerful example. They are very action-oriented, also like the type three, who see a project through until completion. They perform important tasks with an all-or-nothing mindset. And they have a rep a reputation for being angry. Um, he said they can channel that anger in healthy ways as an energizer to overcome whether it be boredom or a difficult challenge or a problem, a specific project. And he said, at their best, they become accepting of the perceptions of others and use their power to protect those they deem worthy or propel them also into greater heights. His military example was General Patton, said probably um the best example of a type 8 for many reasons. Um, a couple that come to mind is his explosive anger in specific campaigns and wars. Um, and one example he shared where General Patton slapped and screamed at a soldier, stating he was a coward, not to fit to occupy the same hospital beds as courageous warriors. So during his time, Patton was never far from urging men forward with curse words and clenched fists, he says. He did have a bold spirit. And despite his demeanor, Patton inspired courage and respect of his men. So with that, let's hear what Vicky had to say about the type eight.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

So here's kind of what the self-talk where where the eight has its self-talk, or where they tell themselves the world is a tough and unjust place. Only the strong survive. I'm a rock, I must not be weak, I must be in control, do it my way. And um, I can sure see a lot of eights in the military, also. Yes. So um, again, uh, if you don't mind, if I'll I'll just kind of do what I did before, go over the gifts of the eight as well. Um, and they have some very similar ones to the three, of course. So assertive. Again, you know, the military really puts us out there. We're very assertive, we're probably that type of person anyway, but we just don't always understand that. Like I thought I was very shy when I joined the military. And boy, there was probably by the time I left the military after 30 years of being uh, you know, being in and then retiring, I can sure see that I was a very assertive person, but you don't always realize that when you're young, you know. Um, decisive. Um, again, you're making decisions fast, things are going quick, you don't have time to think about it. And I see that I do that in the uh regular world too. My son and I went to buy a car one time, and I made a decision over about five minutes which car I wanted to buy. I mean, they weren't even located together. I had to call different people. I had, you know, it was a very uh kind of involved process, and I just said, that's the one, you know. And he was like, Wow, you make decisions fast, mom. And he was only 20 at the time, he's 27 right now.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Oh, wow, wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Um, okay, um, protective, and I think they're protective of themselves, but they're also protective of other people. They, you know, they just really um it says eights are big-hearted and take people under their wing. They protect the people and things they care about and will fight against injustices. We had a lot of officers that would do that. They would protect the other people around them. We had some that were not good and did not protect the people underneath them, and they had some real issues and problems, you know, either their people did or they did. Um, again, very independent person. Um, you know, they they just know what they want and they want to maintain their autonomy. Um, and then influential and this autonomy thing, I see that even to this day with me, with um being involved in the in what I'm doing and where I'm going. We're we're just very out there kind of with our business, and it's like it's okay. I'm comfortable in that because this is what I've been doing for the last umpteen years, along with being in the military, is running this rental business. So it's like, it's all right, I'm okay with that, which some people would really have a hard time with. Influential AIDS have their own way of taking charge, influencing others, which includes the capacity to influence the bigger picture. And I've always been a bigger picture thinker, so that doesn't surprise me at all. Um, and I've always been very influential in even the little things, um, and maybe not every second of every day of every minute, you know, but I I've been, you know, in there's certain ways that I try to influence people or and it just comes out natural.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

And because sometimes knowing what doesn't resonate can be just as helpful as understanding what does resonate when you're looking to uncover your dominant Enneagram type. I asked Vicky what parts, if anything, of the types absolutely did not resonate with her.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I think they're trying to always prove themselves. I don't know that I'm always trying to do that anymore because you just with age, you just kind of you grow out of that. Yeah, yeah. And you can admit you're when you're wrong too. So it's it's you know, uh, an eight probably wouldn't never back down.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Probably always want it their way.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, in that stereotypical look of an eight, absolutely. It's kind of there, that my way or the highway. Right. Um, and that's why sometimes this typing process can be so difficult because we move the the type actually, the the more professional and personal growth and development you do, the less you look, quote unquote, look and behave like that stereotypical type. So you might have that the motive, the drive of the eight, but maybe you're willing to compromise because of experience and in your own work, right? Or, you know, type three sometimes get get the reputation for really caring a lot about what other people think, uh, about what other people think. And as you grow and um, you know, do your own self-work, that maybe isn't as true. Um, so those tend to be qualities and behavior. So it always comes down to that driver, which we all have, probably all nine inside of us, right? We all want to be loved and appreciated, like the type two, the type three, you know, of course, who doesn't want to be successful, who doesn't want to be strong and powerful like an eight, but there tends to be one that really drives the bus. All right, we've heard about the core motive for the three and the eight, and then how that has shown up for Vicky in her own life and work experience and leadership and in the military. Now we're gonna get into some key questions with Vicky to look at certain behaviors and ways of thought to help us and hopefully you, if this is a type that you're trying to narrow down between, um, gain some additional clarity, gain some additional clues on the two, looking at some tendencies. And we're going to also look at some of Major O'Malley's description of the type, the different types, um, to also help us kind of set the stage for what are those, what are some of those common behaviors of the type three, of the type A. And for threes, he said you'll find them being um typically extroverted and and conscientious. They love to get the job done and they want to look good getting the job done. They are excellent at adjusting their approach on the battlefield and can make uh you know rapid decisions when it comes to needing to pivot or come up with a plan V when the time requires it. They tend to be really good at multitasking and they can gravitate towards high visibility events and positions. They tend to be really composed and do well at off-the-cuff interviews because they have that knack of being able to read a room and matching the demeanor, their demeanor to fit the situation or the specific audience in front of them. And because of that, they can be excellent at marketing themselves and selling their mission, whether that be to their subordinates or potentially members of Congress. And because of all of that, they tend to be really good problem solvers and rise to high positions of power and earn that reputation for getting good results. AIDS are known for recognizing where the power resides in an organization and gravitating towards that. AIDS naturally understand the art of the deal and how to bring enough pressure to bear to get what you want. Um, they are excellent at maneuvering to a position of advantage, whether that be on the battlefield or through career competition. They know how to excel in their chosen profession and can help others do the same, often serving very well as career managers or mentors. They prefer to make the first move and seize the moment with strong attack rather than wait and defense. They are most alive during action and they are totally okay and comfortable and, like we've talked about, enjoy high-stake decision making that might make others weary, very decisive. And AIDS can make the tough call. When in the role, though, of a planner, where they have to get into a lot of the details and the checklist, um, that drains them. It makes our AIDS tired. And so they are more stimulated when they are getting straight to the point in a moment of crisis, jumping right into action. So now let's hear from Vicky some of her responses when we're looking at some key qualities of a type three and a type eight energy. When it comes to um like public opinion and what other people think. And I know I had kind of alluded to this already, but what is your experience with that? Like when you go to make a decision, how much of what others will think of you or that decision plays into that?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

I mean, um, like with our business, um probably not so much unless we're impacting somebody else. Um now in the military, I always said when someone um say that when you're making these decisions, like in the military, I always said that it's not a popularity contest. It's you've got to do the job, you know, and it doesn't matter who likes you, who doesn't like you, that really isn't going to affect anything. It's about getting that decision made because whether people realize it or not, you have a boss and then um in the military, and then you know, everybody else, uh everybody else is a boss also in the military at some aspect or way, sometimes, especially, you know, the with the officers. So your boss may want one thing, and somebody else's boss may want something else. So you can't really get too wrapped around what everybody's thinking, and then when the job is done, it's all over, you know. Um, I remember as a real junior officer, I went into another officer, and my boss told me to tell him this. I, you know, I was very shy at that time. And he goes, he goes, I the guy who I told the message to, he said, I'm not gonna get mad at you. He goes, because I know that's you, not not you saying it, but it's him saying it. And how dare he send you over here to say that to me, you know, and it was told something really off the cuff. I can't remember that he, you know, said to him. So, um, so in the military, you really can't.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

uh have everything based on somebody else's opinion and everybody else is gonna have an opinion too that's hard oh yeah oh people always have opinions yeah okay okay so that that is a little bit of a clue right there and I'll come back to that um when it comes to and this is tough because some of this is you know what comes natural to you what are your natural preferences versus what have you had to mold into in order to be successful in this case especially something like the military where you don't have a lot of flexibility to to kind of you know be um you know have have the options of how to act you know you there need there's processes and procedures I understand that so this is a little tricky um but still still really fun so um when it comes to conforming and we can tap into your military experience or we can even tap into some of your CEO experience and just kind of how you run the company and um or just anything in your personal life too when it comes to conforming is are you kind of looking around to think okay where do I need what what do I need to do here to kind of you know be accepted kind of kind of fit in um to be in order to be successful or are you more like I don't care what anybody else is doing like I'm gonna do it my way and if I fail well it's just a learning lesson versus the other one might be well if I fail like oh I that would just be I would just look bad and I absolutely don't want that. So I'm gonna do what I need to do in order to to kind of color in the lines and and make sure I do this um successfully.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

I'm very much the type of person I have to do it my way. And I've always kind of been that way um through the military through the CEO um I'm just kind of out there making my own decisions. Okay. And and like I like the one I like what you said that if I fail I'll have to just use it as a learning lesson. I may have not said I'll have to use it as a learning lesson but I'll have to try it a different way if I fail the first time. And most of the time I didn't fail no sometimes I did but you know you don't you don't know until you try.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Right right when it comes to um doing it a right way um do you think that like is there a right way or is it kind of um this is my way like this is what's worked for me and I I don't necessarily care what the guideline is or what somebody else is recommending. I know what's going to work for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Uh yeah that that's really how I try to focus it a lot of times when I get try to get stuff done I'll I'll uh know what works for me and then go forth and do it that way if I can I mean unless there is like something that's driving me in different directions.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Okay. Okay. And then just a little kind of a follow-up to that when you are doing the thing that you know is best for you or or your way where is that coming from is it is it something that you're thinking a lot about maybe you're making a list of the pros and cons. Is it just a gut instinct like I can't explain it. I just know is it you know a feeling like I'm I'm kind of getting in touch like am I happy about this? Am I sad about this?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

How how do you know what what that is for you if that question makes sense I would say it's a gut feeling that I know I'm doing it the right way but it's also a kind of a heart feeling as well um one of the things that happened early on in my life is that my parents did not want me to go to like they wanted me to go to vocational college and then that was it. Just stop. So I did what they wanted I went and did I was a medical office assistant and I did what they wanted but I knew it wasn't enough. I took a one year program and put it into two because I thought if I never go back to college I at least want some kind of experience here in it. And it was kind of good that I did it um for many different reasons for growth for you know getting to explore a little bit I went and worked for two years as a physical therapy aide and then I went on and went back to college and of course my parents were very upset that I was going back to college I quit my job and et cetera et cetera but I could see that working as a medical office assistant at the time with the pay at the office that I was at I was never going to make it in this world you know with that. And so I needed a little bit more and um it it was um I think probably one of the best decisions I made you know interesting okay okay it really was a gut and I didn't have parental support at and I was still young I didn't have parental support for what I was doing at all. And so that was it was always a big problem. Every time I would come home my dad would say well how many more semesters do you have left now and I'm like well it's really hard to tell because things might change or he just wasn't in tune with the educational system.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

You know yeah so interesting yeah yeah I mean that's a clue as well you know AIDS tend to be more um in in their body in their gut feeling can't explain it. Um it makes it tough as a leader sometimes because when you're you know bringing up your team or teaching somebody else maybe how to take on some of your responsibilities, you know, it's hard to train well just trust your gut. You know it's like I can't explain why I made this decision. So that sometimes is the work of the eight leader as well to understand how did I make this so I can you know help somebody else make their own good decisions. Of course any Enneagram type can have the desire to want to help others can and have the goal to serve others in whatever career that they have. A lot of times you'll hear the those qualities that energy get associated associated with our type two with good reason. And that actually adds some additional confusion sometimes for our three and eight matchup because you have that type three sitting right next to the type two on the Enneagram. So a lot of times I talk to entrepreneurs and business owners leaders with that type three energy also have a very strong wing to with the helper, the giver. And then also interesting is that in growth they call it the integration line, the growth arrow our type eights go to a type two so I will also hear from eight leaders about the desire to want to help and sometimes there's even confusion between am I a two or am I an eight because of this sometimes. So here in this next section you'll hear a little bit more about how that shows up for Vicky specifically in her next chapter in her career.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

I've always been someone that people have come to for help. They're just always there uh wanting you know my advice sometimes and um so with that I I went to Golden Gate University because I had the GI Bill. So I had to pick around and choose my different majors and whatnot. And one of them was the um occupational industrial psychology degree. And um within there we have a lot of coaching classes and whatnot. And I asked the professors if we could continue on even after people graduate and so they said sure we can do that. And so we've developed developed a coaching group that will work with students and pretty much we'll work with anybody, you know um and so it's just like um it's really been an avenue of mine to want to help others and bring them into the fold and we don't do it so much with decision making it's hard to back off with your own thoughts and your own experiences and just ask them questions. Yeah you know but it's been interesting doing this and trying to bring them about I worked with a um a gentleman uh who was running um or um he was like I don't know what what position he held but he was the one who had to organize the um the men that came from Mexico to work in the fertilizer business. And so he uh wanted to have some different types of programs than he had before so I was coaching him for my last semester in um school and it was really interesting trying to ask him questions okay now what would you do about this you know and um I I don't know I just see with all my experiences name my son says to me he used to say it quite a bit he has kind of ventured off of saying it all the time but he's says a lot mom you'd make a great life coach because he's always coming to talk to me about things and I'm like well what about this well what about that you know give him some other things to think about when he's kind of going off on a tangent or a direction.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Well listen Vicky I appreciate you so much being here taking the time to share and open up right these are this is about our personality it's like the most personal thing that we could possibly talk about. And you're sharing that with others for them to to learn from and grow from so I I so appreciate you um as we wrap this up where can people connect with you and let them know or let you know that they heard this episode and any takeaways um that they learned from it.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I'm on LinkedIn and I gave you the little link to me so that's a really great place.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

And let's see it's Vicky uh Vicky J. And we'll add her um link in the show notes here as well but if you want to search for her I know some people are on the go listening and they like just to put it in right here. So Vicky J over on LinkedIn and then is there anything else that you would like to say or share about leadership um as we kind of wrap this specific interview up um my name I was just gonna say my name kind of sounds like a star or something Vicky J, you know, like J Lo.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

I love it. Yeah. But anyway um so I think that um you know just if I had any advice to give to anybody is just take each situation as they come uh and look to what the other person might be going through because so many times we only are focused on ourselves. We're not looking at what somebody else is going through. And those would be the two big things is just you know take each situation and look at it in two different perspectives.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

So good so good and tools like the Enneagram and others out there are very very helpful. So thank you so much Vicky I appreciate you being here and uh we'll see you over on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Okay great thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Big thank you again to Vicky for all that she shared and while we're not walking away today with a clear 100% yes I'm a type three or 100% yes I'm a type eight in her case I do hope as the listener you're walking away with some additional insight and clues and you're in your own typing journey. And maybe you're not resonating with either one. So maybe you're walking away with some understanding about those that maybe you recognize as having three or eight energy in your life. And so now you have a little bit deeper of an understanding maybe maybe you're gonna be able to extend a little bit more empathy some patience because based on what Vicky said and shared you're able to understand a little bit better about where they're coming from. So either way I hope that you will connect with Vicky over on LinkedIn and if nothing else thank her for her service let her know that you appreciate it. We're celebrating her on Veterans Day and as a listener if you happen to have also served um know that we are thankful for the time and appreciative of your service as well and celebrating you too here on Veterans Day. So thank you so much to all of you veterans and thank you to all of you listeners for being here for hanging out and I can't wait to see you again soon.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Thank you for listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast. Sarah offers Enneagram assessments for employees and entrepreneurs and workshops for company teams and women's groups to learn more about how Sarah can help you or your organization better understand people at work, visit EnneagramMBA.com