SPEAKER_00 0:01

You're listening to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. According to a recent Forbes article, 84% of Gen Z reported feeling burnt out. 84% is a lot. Wow. And 74% of millennials and 47% of baby boomers said they also experienced burnout. A lot of people are burnt out. What is going on? What is leading to the state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion? And what can be done about it? Regardless of your Enneagram type, it sounds like according to these stats, anyone listening to this can can relate to the feeling of burnt out, whether you've been there and you somehow found your way out, or you're there right now. We're in luck wherever you are in that because our guest today is Hilary Kaye. And Hillary is a fellow Enneagram coach. She's a speaker, she's an author, and she is also teamed up with the group at Art of Growth with some really cool projects and group programming all around helping us at work avoid burnout, increase our communication, and enhance our performance using this tool that we all here love called the Enneagram. And today she's specifically going to talk about what a burnout cycle looks like because it just doesn't happen overnight. She's gonna give us some insight into what's kind of happening, what's phase one looks like, what phase two looks like, what that burnout phase ends up looking like, so that we can start to recognize it. Because she said that one of the reasons for this burnout epidemic is that we don't know how to operate best for us, for our unique personalities, nor do a lot of us even recognize the signs that our bodies are giving us to slow down. And so she's gonna give us some signs based on our type and then where we can go to learn more so that we can probably not avoid burnout forever and ever, um, but minimize our exposure to it and help get out of it faster. So without further ado, let's jump into this week's episode with Hilary Kay.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Burnout is something that I mean, it's such a passion of mine. And so anytime I get a chance to talk about it and how um to overcome it, I'm I'm all in.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Well, I am very excited to have this conversation. I think it's going to be very helpful and uh entertaining probably for all for all of us because we can all we've all been there, if not, like I said, right now. Um to kick it off though, I I know that you identify most as an Enneagram type three. And speaking of burnout, when we talk about the Enneagram types, this is the time where I'll usually say these are kind of your stereotypical workaholics. Um, so I'm curious what your experience with that type three energy has been. And then I'd love to hear how you've noticed yourself grow through some of that.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, absolutely. So it's so funny. Um, when we talk about how burn-up shows up in different types, um, people automatically tend to assume that the three is gonna be one of the most burnt out types that they resonate with that word. Um, but what was interesting is I started really my Enneagram journey because I was burnt out. Um, it was I had lost so much of myself that I didn't know where to go next. And I was like, well, I'm gonna have to reconnect with myself. I need to start remembering who I am. Like, okay, who am I actually? Right. Like even beyond remembering, just like discovering um who I am. And so it led me, um, it led me to the Enneagram. And when I when I typed as a three, I was like, well, this makes so much sense. Obviously, that workaholic um type of, you know, that stereotype of the the type three workaholic. And I think it's so um, you know, before the Enneagram is I didn't realize I was burnt out. And that's what I mean by like, it's like, you know, they they would assume people assume that the type three would very much resonate with that. But I thought this was normal. I thought the feeling of burnout was normal because I was getting the respect, the admiration, the applause for doing everything that I was doing that led me to burnout. And so I didn't recognize it as burnout, I recognized it as life. And so I like in in hindsight, looking back, I I I would have I would not have said, like, if someone asked me, are you burnt out? I'd be like, no, I'm just really tired. Life's been really full, you know? And so I think that's important for listeners to also like, like you might not, you might think burnout, like I'm not burned out, but are you? And you and you don't know you are.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Such a good point. Okay, and we're gonna talk a little bit more about what that looks like, maybe depending on your personality. Um, I'm I'm just curious, in your initial typing journey, um, did you know immediately that the three was probably your top type? Or were was there any others that were like, oh, I could be this or this?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah. So I found the Indiegurb in 2015. And when I took the assessment, we all know assessments are only about 55% accurate, but I didn't know that at the time when I was taking it. And I typed as an eight. Okay. And I read this stuff as the eight, and I was like, yeah, okay, maybe this kind of sounds like me, like goal-driven, like strategic, you know, all those like descriptor words. But at that point in my Enneagram journey, I had no idea about core motivation. Um, the, you know, the assessments are really good at giving you descriptors, but not really getting to that core motivation. And so I kind of lived with the eight and kind of ignored it. I was like, whatever. And then when I really hit that rock bottom moment when I was like, I need to reconnect with myself, I dug deeper into the Enneagram. And when I actually explored all of the types, the three was crystal clear to me. It was like, I, and I I just like remember like crying and being like, this is me. No one has got this, but this is exactly who I am.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Okay, and I'm gonna come back to to your journey in just a little bit, but I want to ask you a general question about what, like, where where are we right now? I know you had shared some interesting statistics about kind of the state of burnout. It feels like we're working a lot. Um, but kind of what what's what are you noticing in the workplace of how people are feeling and kind of juggling all the things in this digital world and kind of the lines between work and home being blurred?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Yeah, I think that's exactly you just hit the nail on the head, is we have tried for so long as a culture to separate the personal with the professional. And you can't do that. We aren't robots. Sure, we can try to compartmentalize, right? And some types are better at it than others, um, to take, you know, be one person at work and one person at home, but your personal life directly reflects into your professional life and vice versa. So that's the first problem is people are trying to separate it. We're saying we need work life balance, but that's not what we need. We need balance. It's not the the juggling, because the truth of the matter is sometimes work is gonna take more of your energy, and other times your life is gonna take more of your energy. So it's not about balancing because that's that's not um it's not really attainable, right? We're we don't live in this ideal world. So we have to learn how to just have balance in our life, and that's the problem, is people that's the problem number one is we're trying to separate it. Problem number two is that people do not understand how to operate for their own personality. They are, you know, we're in this era of self-self-help, right? People listening to this podcast, that's what they're doing. They're coming here for self-help, right? And we can read all the books and we can listen to all the podcasts. And yeah, those strategies are gonna work for some people. And it's probably the people that have the same type as the person who wrote the book or who's putting up the podcast, right? And so you can do any strategy to help you create that life balance for a certain period of time. But if you are not tuning into what you uniquely need as you, as your own individual self, um, it's not gonna be sustainable. And so it's a sustainability problem. Um, and not and not being aware of our own internal operating system and trying to let the world dictate how we should find balance instead of really digging into us and our core motivation and um what works for us?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I love that you said that, Hillary. It is so true. It's like there's no shortage of great advice out there. It's just is it great advice for you and right now? So how are you helping or how do you see people being helped by the Enneagram and understanding their type to help kind of navigate through burnout and maybe even start to notice it?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, absolutely. So, really, I, you know, I hit on this just a little bit ago. It's about that motivation, right? When you know the motivation behind your behaviors, right? It starts with this self-knowledge, right? So you you learn your type. You're like, oh, this is all this good information about myself. I'm learning what motivates me. I'm learning how I'm perceived in the world, I'm learning how um others perceive me, right? It's all information. And then that next step is observation. So not only knowing that about yourself, it's one thing to know it about yourself, and it's another thing to observe it real time. So when you can begin to see that, oh, I'm doing this behavior or action because it relates to what motivates me, right? So just observing that in action. That's the first step is well, the first two steps, knowing yourself, knowing who you are. And then the second step is starting to observe that and start to becoming aware of your emotional and behavioral patterns. So, oh, I'm noticing that I'm being a little bit more direct, or I'm noticing that I'm starting to start to withdraw. Why is that? And asking yourself those questions is paying attention to that. Um, and that's really that first step that that self-knowledge and self-observation. And then once you're able to observe your trends, then you can start using what I call the Enneagram toolbox to help you push through, overcome, um, and validate those um recurring obstacles that tend to lead into burnout.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Okay. And you had mentioned as a type three in your own experience, you didn't even realize that you were burnt out. Are there other types that struggle to also identify that are coming up for you that that maybe we could talk about as as some specific examples?

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah, so um looking at the assertive triad, the three, seven, and eight, they're the pushers. Um, it's very comfortable for them to push. Um, also, you're looking at like the one, um, it's very uh, those are the types that it's harder for them to realize that they are burnt out just because they are pushers by nature. They don't spend a lot of time thinking about the energy that they're taking to do things versus it's gonna be really easy for a five to realize they're burnt out because they have such an attention to their energy and resources, right? It's gonna be easier for a um a two to realize they're burnt out because twos and nines, the same thing. It's because they're like, oh, I literally have nothing left to get. Feel that to where if you look at, like for me, the three, I was like giving's giving me rewards. Like I don't care as long as I'm getting, and so I wasn't it what it's not a I wasn't tuned into my body.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Right. And that's that's a whole like, you know, looking at the toolbox that we have, you know, being, you know, more body repressed. Um, you know, integrating my centers has helped, you know, with that. And so that's I mean, that's step step down the road. But it's yeah, for those types, the the assertive triads, so three, seven, and eight. And then I've also noticed the one um in that as well. Like the the types that you look at and are like they're pushers, right? Where they are um they take action, they, you know, not in the body sense, take action, right? But like they are just like doers um and goals and the next thing, right? So you look at three and eight's goals, eights action, seven's the next thing, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yes, yes. Well, and I know that you've also talked about kind of the different types of burnout, emotional, physical, and then mental. Um, anything that we should know about that or pay attention to um as it relates to kind of what exactly or where we're being burnt out at?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Right. And and so my answer to that is it's all three. So true burnout is emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion. That is true burnout. Burnout has become this more flippant term that, like, oh, I'm just burnt out, right? But are you really burnt out? Are you at that level of complete mental, physical, emotional exhaustion? And I want to know in that physical, mental, emotional, that's head, heart, and body. Right? So you're burnt out in all three of your centers. That is what true, true burnout is. And so what I encourage people to do is looking at it in in um in a cycle, right? So you might be, if you're looking at your three centers, physical, mental, emotional, and looking at am I, is it just one, right? Am I stressed? Right? Stress is like there's a couple of things happening. Like you can't, you can't avoid stress, right? It's gonna be, it's everywhere, right? Um, or are you overwhelmed? That's that next stage when you're starting to really become it's more of a aware on more than one center. Or um, are you truly burnt out where all three are just like tapped out? So that's part of that how I was talking about earlier, that self-observation is observing yourself. And there's so many little nuances with each type and what that cycle looks like for each type. But yeah, it's really paying attention to all three of the centers and not just saying I'm burnt out for the sake of saying, you know, I'm burnt out. It's it's really examining that, observing yourself and what burnout looks like for you.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Okay. And I like that because it's not just zero to burnout. It's like there's some steps, some potential uh triggers, alerts that maybe we can notice before we get there. So I know you have a, I think it's a three-piece burnout cycle. Would you just walk us through what that looks like or what that is?

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yep. So it's using those three words stress, overwhelm, and burnout. So part of how I said earlier is part of the way you understand where you are at in your cycle is by learning and observing your emotional and behavioral patterns. So when you are in a um stressed out, and I don't know how granular you want me to do in this. Um, but so you look at within, and this is going into that toolbox, is how you know where you are at in that cycle is by looking at your toolbox and and starting to look at your resource points. So the two lines that connect you to um they're often sometimes called your health line and stress line, we're starting to get away from that because really they're just resources, not you know, there's not one that is um worse than the other, but you look at those types and you look at um your own type and looking at more of those lower side characteristics of that type. So if you start um seeing that you are starting to exhibit, you know, like two to three of those lower, lower side characteristics of your core type or one of your resource um points types, that's a good indication that you're in that stressed out zone. So it's again, it's self-observation. You can't overcome burnout unless you know who you are and you start observing those behaviors. So it's observing that you are encountering maybe two or three of those lower side of the types. Then in overwhelm, it jumps to if you start sh, you know, umticing, observing in yourself that you are starting to exhibit like four to six of those lower side behaviors, whether from your core type or from your resource points. And then if you are completely, like if you are not exhibiting, right, this is when it really gets to burnout. When you get up to like six plus of those low side characteristics of your core type and your resource points, that is a really good indication that you're burnt out. That that's the that's the first tool that you can use to see where you're at in the cycle. That's the the the, I always call it the best next step, right? Like it's the most tangible tool to people who are just starting using the Enneagram to help them overcome burnout. And then we can look at things after you kind of identify with that. We can dig deeper into the intelligence centers, the instincts, because those all play too, but they are sometimes harder to help you identify where you're at because it's more deep in there. But like on the surface, that self-observation, like on your, you know, your emotional and behavioral patterns, it's it's easier to notice that in yourself.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Okay. And I will say I have this has been really helpful for me and my own Enneagram journey is understanding what stress looks like for me and how that might be different from somebody else. I'm wondering, just for like just to get a little specific, um, if we could each maybe, if you would be willing to share kind of how stress shows up for you as a type three, because I will say I was very confused when I first started learning about the Enneagram that sevens tend to take on some of those lower quality type uh one. And even sometimes I notice my type five coming out sometimes at the lower qualities. And I get so critical, I get so judgmental. Like it's like this is right, this is wrong. And I'm like, where who is this person? And you're and you're absolutely right in that um you have to have the information first to be able to even observe. But uh observing is a whole process in itself. It's not like one day it happens, but the more that you learn, reflect, kind of consider, the more you can start to see those things. And even now it's like days go by. And I'm like, oh wow, I've been I've been this way for days. This is okay, something's off. I need to, you know, whatever, reset. So I'm curious just what that might look like for you as someone with the type three energy.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yep. So when I am starting to get into my brain out cycle, I'm gonna look at my resource points of the Nine and the six. And I'm going to start to observe those characteristics. So I'm looking at the low side of my type. So that would be workaholic. That's a low side of the type three. I'm going to look at the low side characteristics of the type six, like the overthinking, over planning, overanalyzing, and looking at those low side characteristics of the nine, more of that numbing, ignorance is bliss, like not speaking up, not being confident. And so where I notice it starts for me is first it goes into that low side of the three, like workaholic, right? Sometimes you have to be, right? Sometimes the job requires you to work a lot. So I notice that as stress for me. And you can look at that personally too, right? Like I see it with my kids all the time. When I am that there is like, I have one of my sons is in two club sports, right? And trying to get him to practices and trying to make sure all the bags are in the right place and that, but push energy, right? That that three needs, but that's causing stress. That's me being a workaholic mom, right? Just like doing, doing, doing, filling his schedule, filling our schedules, right? So that's stress. So it can look that way. The workaholic can be personal and professional, right? We're one person. Um, but then for me, it starts with that low side of the three, but then I really tend to go to that nine next, the low side of the nine. That's when I notice I start to get overwhelmed when I start to numb. So for me, that looks like Netflix and chill. Like I'm ignoring my email or like I'm just on TikTok. Like I should be doing this, but I'm I have overdone. So now I'm just gonna numb it out. I'm gonna pretend it doesn't exist, right? Get in that very like ignorance is bliss mentality, just kind of get in my comfy stuff, you know, very much that that nine, low sight of the nine energy. And what that ends up turning into is then I have a lack of confidence. So I go to another one of those characteristics of that nine, lack of confidence. So then I start over planning, overanalyzing, over, you know, everything that serves me when I'm in a good place with this, you know, that that six resource point and that three, that that three's um high side, those things start to not serve me. And so it goes, it it starts with, you know, the the low side of my type, it goes to that low side of what has in the past been called like that stress type or the line of um disintegration or whatever. There's lots of lovely terminology we like to use the world that doesn't always serve us. Um, and then after I'm there for a while, that's when all of my that internal operating system is not functioning properly. So then I start to exhibit the low side of everything.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, that was really helpful. I think, yeah, just kind of using that as an example, and each type has has those two resource points. I'm curious, um because it it seems like when people are struggling to find their type, sometimes it ends up being, you know, I am I stressed or and I'm just curious if you have any thoughts or uh advice, things that we should think about if we are struggling to kind of nail down that dominant type for us based on kind of this conversation around resource points and burnout.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah, absolutely. That is where it really goes back to the core motivation, right? So if you look at the characteristics of the type, that is not going to land your type because characteristics, you know, like you look at a three, an eight, and um let's just take the three and the eight, because that's what I missed type for, right? At the beginning was the eight. Like goal-oriented, right? That fits both. Planner, that fits both, right? It can fit both, but it's more than three, but it can fit both based on how you're answering questions, right? Um, you so if you're looking at that alone, it's not tying it back to why the why behind that action. So if you're struggling around type, that's why I think the Enneagram is so valuable uh, you know, above all the other personality assessments, is because it's the why behind the what. So really going back and looking at that core motivation, right? Are you striving toward a goal? So this is a question that I could ask for a three versus an eight. Are you are you getting burnt out striving for a goal because you're afraid of failure? Or are you getting burnt out striving for a goal because you want control or you want independence, or you you are seeking justice for someone, right? So it's that why mechanism. And so often that's one of the things you begin to observe in yourself around emotional and behavioral patterns is why am I doing that? And that's that's really the key with the Enneagram and why it's different is because it it's going back to the why. So I always bring it back to the why are you doing that? Not what are you doing, but why are you doing that? So really taking a deeper look at that core motivation and the story um behind that motivation. Uh um, and and that often reveals type.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Yeah. Yeah. So well said. Such a such a good thing to to reflect on, to kind of sit with, because it it does. You do have to kind of get curious and reflect on that and and and dig into why, why. Um, I we've talked a lot about identifying stress, overwhelm, burnout, what that might look like based on our type. What can you tell us, or what should we be looking for when it comes to either avoiding it or recovering from it?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

So avoiding, we'll start with avoiding. Avoiding only can happen once you're aware of what it is, right? So when you become aware and you start noticing, oh, I'm exhibiting that, that's when you can stop, pause, and think about okay, and go back to that. Why? Why are these things happening and how can I get out? How can I not continue that cycle? What can I do to get out of that? Um, and then and that's where um it goes to, you know, your your your toolbox and the Enneagram. So that's how you avoid it, right? Is starting, it's that awareness and that stopping the pause once you have that awareness. But sometimes you're in it, right? You're just in it. You didn't catch it. I mean, I this is my work, this is what I do is help people avoid burnout with the Enneagram. And I have recently found myself in a burnout cycle that I was not, I was like, whoa, I was not aware. Like I was not paying attention to how I'm operating, right? So when you're in it and you need to overcome it, that's when you get to pick up those tools that the Enneagram gives us and really looking at so, like those resource points. It's the always where I go first because it's the easiest for people to comprehend when they're first starting their journey, is looking at the high side characteristics of your core type and your resource points, and how can you begin implementing those in your in your life? What is one action that I can take that will help, like that will implement some of those high side characteristics? Then for people a little further on in their journey or that are getting, you know, more um spending more time on it, I look at the instincts. And am I living in my repressed instinct? Am I because I have been stressed and overwhelmed, my body is not coping how it's trying to pull out all the stops. So everything, it's like coming out, and I'm I might start living out of that repressed instinct. So, how can I use my neutral instinct to bridge me over back into living primarily out of my primary instinct and making sure that there's harmony again? We're not looking at balance here, we're looking at harmony. Um, balance is not achievable, right? They're all they're all in you at different percentages, right? So making sure that they're all working together. And then also taking a look at the centers, right? Am I living out of solely my primary, even? So am I just looking at this like as a three? Am I just looking at it with a bunch of emotion and and um and coming at it without using my head, that logic, and without using my body taking action, right? Am I just sulking in this emotion? Is that the reason why? So again, it's finding that how can I integrate? It's really about that integration. How can I integrate my three centers, right? So, like I said, those are like the next, like the deep work um to do. And there's tools on how, you know, ways you can integrate the head center, ways you can integrate the body, head and heart, whatever. And same with the instinct. So, but I always start with like those resource points because, like I said, for people who are just getting started, it's a more tangible next step approach um to overcoming.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Okay, that was really helpful. And I'm gonna ask you if you're willing to share what your instinctual stack is and how you see that repressed show up in stress. Um, that that's something that people are having more questions about and getting curious about. So I'd love just to hear uh where you're at with it.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah, absolutely. I I actually, this is becoming one of my favorite topics because I thought I was a self-prez three. Okay. My whole Enneagram journey, I thought I was self-prez until last July. And when I realized I was, I had had lots of events in my life that have made me live out of my self-prez. So my actual stacking is sexual, social self-prez. Oh, interesting. Since I have reclaimed my sexual instinct, the burnout has gotten significantly better because it's how I'm operated. I used to think, or how I'm wired. Um, I used to think that my sexual was repressed, but that was because I had lived so many years in stress and burnout that my body forgot that no, your sexual energy is good.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah. So interesting. Okay, okay. And I know that you work with people more on that. Um the last thing, and we'll we'll talk about how people can learn more about understanding more and learning more from you on that. Um, the last question that I have around this before we start to wrap this up is you has you've talked about um how belonging impacts burnout in the workplace. And I'm just curious if you could speak a little bit about what is that correlation? What does belonging have to do with burnout?

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yeah, no, that's a great question. And man, do I wish my counterpart Joel from The Art of Growth uh was here because he, I mean, it's his work on belonging is just incredible and using um burnout, using belonging to calm that burnout. We do a lot of work together with this, but it's that sense of again returning to self. You have to belong to yourself before you can belong to others. So if you are not belonging to yourself, if you're not owning who you are, if you are not operating outside, you know, um, if you are not operating within your own operating system, right, you're never gonna feel like you belong. Because it's not it, you're not operating how you were made, right? So you have to come back to the self before then you can belong in a team. So when we do corporate work, that's why we start on the individual journey first. Because if you cannot connect with yourself and who you are and observe it in yourself, you're never going to be able to do it for others. And you're never gonna feel like you belong, and that there's, you know, the synergy. I hate that word, but sometimes it's the only word that fits, right? Um, because you're not belonging to self. Um, and so that's really the key in all of it is feeling that that feeling of belonging has to start with you. And that's and that's that's part of that burnout recovery journey is belonging to self. Um, and you cannot belong to others unless you belong to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

I love that perspective. I love that. There's so many more things I know that we could get into, but you have a wealth of information um on your social media page. I know on um some of the other projects you're working on. And I will say, um, I also would love for you to share anything you want to about the new version of your book. Um, I got Hillary's book, Unlocking or Unlock Your Potential at Work. Um, and then I know you're gonna be making some additions with how maybe burnout can affect that. Would you be willing just to talk a little bit about what's to come with that?

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah, absolutely. So um I have learned so much more about the in like really the research since I so I I released that book in uh December of 2021. And my burnout research led me so much deeper. And now, so I've decided, um I think next, maybe I don't know, I think in April, my book is coming. The current version is coming down, um, and it's not gonna be available um anymore for purchase. But I am in the process of refining that work. I mean, if you have that book, like it's still, you know, it has some very basic stuff, but there are so many more things that I've learned um through research. And that's what I love about the Enneagram, is it's ever evolving, right? Because it's self-reporting. So as we learn more about the types, new versions need to come out, right? As the more we learn about each type. So that version's coming down, and I'm working on um a new version that, yeah, we'll have a lot more information on instincts and integration of those and how they can really unlock your potential at work. And I mean, like I said, unlock your potential anywhere, right? These rules are transferable. But um yeah, so that's that's a little bit about that is, you know, as a three, it's a hard thing to take down the book. Um, but that's actually been part of my burnout recovery is being okay with saying, like, no, I'm gonna stop. Let's let's take a step back. Like, I don't need a push through. It's not failure that you're taking it down. It's it's learning and it's growing. And um, so yeah, so that's what's happening with the book, but I'm very much still doing things now, like, because I don't know when I'm, you know, I don't know when that new version will be out. But what I've what I've been really focusing on um lately is the launch of a burnout group coaching program where we walk through the process of, you know, using your toolbox. So learning about your motivation, your resource points, your instinct stack, your center stack. Um, and so I'm actually Joel, who I just mentioned um a little bit ago, he's doing that group coaching class with me and we're starting it in April. Um, and it's a nine-week program where we walk people through returning to self and overcoming and preventing burnout.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Okay, if for those that are interested in learning more, where do we go?

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Theartofgrowth.org.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Okay. And then we'll find that. Okay, starting in April 2023. Um, where can we connect with you? If somebody's like, oh my gosh, I want to ask you a question, I want to just share something I took away. Where is the best place to connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yep. So um I have I'm on two different Instagram pages. My personal account, it used to be my primary uh business account, but it's more, it's turned more into my personal journey and experience. That's Hillary Kay, but that's where I'm like in my direct messages. It's just me um answering those. But I'm transfer all my business stuff, uh like how to work with me and things like that. That's all I have joined the amazing guys at the Art of Growth, and we are working together. And so the business stuff you can find at Art of Growth, um, Instagram, um, so Hillary K and Art of Growth, those are the two places um where you can find me.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Okay, awesome. And we will I always say, reach out. I know the guests love to hear like what landed and what's resonating. So, so please do that. Um, as we wrap up, I have a couple of rapid fire questions for you. Um, one is what is a book? Any kind of book? And I know this is hard. Um, it could be something you're reading recently, something that changed your life a little bit, uh, that you would recommend to those listening to this this type of podcast.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah, so it's really, I think the the book that I go to a lot in my burnout work, like that I would recommend if you are trying to overcome and um recover from burnout is Brene Brown's book, Atlas of the Heart. Um it gives such a it helps us be aware of the little nuances of feelings, and that's such an important part. And so that that book really helped me articulate things that um, you know, I've never been able to articulate. I am such a reader, I'm such a listener of books. Um, and so I there's whenever I get asked that question, same thing with music. I'm like, I don't have just one. Um personally, I love writing or reading um mysteries and like romance novels and stuff. But professionally, I'm all across the board. Um, I don't have a favorite. There's not one like nonfiction book that completely revolutionized um my life. And I think I've gotten, I think if you would have asked me that question five or six years ago, I would have had a very different answer. But I'm a little leery of doing that because, like what I said earlier is you can read all the self-help books, get recommendations for you know, whomever. But if it's not a fit for your unique personality, it might not have that, you know, that impact. Um, but I'll look, but like my nonfiction go-to, what I recommend to people is Brene Brown's work. I just absolutely love, love her work. And that's been the probably the most um internally changing for yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

And I will say this was supposed to be rapid fire, but I will have to say that has been a transformative book for me as well. As a seven sometimes, who's like so out of touch with how am I feeling? I'm like, okay, let me see. Like, how am I feeling? Like, where where can I go beyond happy, sad? Um, so that one is really, really helpful and just helping you put language to certain feelings and thoughts. So I love that recommendation. Um, I'm gonna ask you, what as a type three, is there anything that the rest of us get wrong about the type three?

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Um, I think it's the confidence piece because type threes are on the surface if you're very, very confident um or fake. Right? Like, oh, you're just putting on a face, or you're like, you're so confident. And and and the the truth of the matter is, I can speak for myself as a type three. I know a lot of other type threes think this is like our inner voice is not confident. It's not we're not being fake, we are trying to cope with this inner, like, do they like me? Do they respect me? Yeah, right. So it's not a fake persona, right? And it and it's not fake confidence, it is our coping mechanism to get what we need. And there's a like with everything, there's a high side to that and a low side to that. But I always, you know, when people tell me, like, oh, you're so confident, right? I'm like, not always.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Yeah, yeah. You just hear what I say on the inside, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then what is something that you wish more people knew about the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

That it can be life-changing if you let it that get away from the Instagram memes, get away from the words on the page, those descriptions, the those descriptions, and get to the core. That there is infinite depth in this tool. It is not just about strengths and weaknesses, it is about uncovering who you are and owning it and loving it and working through it and um really having empathy for yourself outside of these stupid characteristics that we like to say, right? Like, I'm a partner, I'm goal-oriented. Like, no, you're so much more, and this tool can help you discover that. Um, and so enjoy the journey. Don't just share memes, dig in, enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

So well said. Hilary, this has been really good. Um, I appreciate you so much taking the time to share about this. And like I said, this is such a uh a kind of across the board type of topic that everybody can relate to in some way. So please get connected with Hilary. Continue to learn from her over on the art of growth, her the group coming up, um, and uh how the Enneagram can help us in navigating burnout um in work or in life in general. So as we wrap this up, is there anything else that you would want to share that I haven't already asked you to make this episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_01 44:55

I don't think so. I've so enjoyed this. It's been it's been a minute since I've been on a podcast, so it feels good um to be talking um about burnout. Like I said, it's just, you know, it's not it's not something to be taken lightly, right? And um and it it can using the Enneagram to overcome it is just so powerful. And I'm so thrilled to have the opportunity to share it with so many of um your listeners and just am so grateful for the opportunity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Well, I am grateful for you and being willing to share. And uh we will, it sounds like, be seeing you um over on Instagram and maybe some of us inside your upcoming group. Thank you, Hillary. I appreciate it so much. Thank you so much. When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at EnneagramMBA.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.