SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever procrastinated because you needed to gather more information? Are you someone that prefers to work alone? Maybe COVID and the remote work was your dream ideal work setting. Does getting recognized for your depth of knowledge and know-how make you feel appreciated? And do you ever find yourself wishing that people would just leave their personal life and drama at home? Like you are not the coworker that's hanging out in the break room, getting into the office gossip. If you answered yes to any of those questions, you might be an Enneagram type five. And today we are diving into the observer, the innovator, the investigator energy known as the Type 5. And this is part of a series called the Enneagram Case File series that I did over on LinkedIn this past winter. And it was inspired by The Wire after 20 years. I finally watched it and it was so good. I would watch it again, but um I was very inspired uh by it and uh applied it to the Enneagram. And so we're opening a case file. Um, this won't be in a in a back-to-back series. We'll sprinkle these throughout the next several months, but um you'll get to better understand the type five, and then we bring in an informant to let us know about what life is like as that particular type. In today's case, we are our informant is Kathy Farah, and you'll hear from her um a little bit more about um what resonates with her, the work that she does, and how she sees some of that five energy, the strengths of the five, be able to support her and help her be successful in in this direction in her career. Um, so that'll be really fun. And and I I think I say it in the interview here, but I'll just say it one more time. This whole series, whatever type we're talking about, it will be very validating, I think. If you know that yes, this is my type for sure. So definitely listen in. Um if you don't know what your type is, but what that type may be in your top two or three, um, listen in because it might give you some additional clarity as to yes, this is me, or maybe no, that's actually not. Um, and then lastly, even if you aren't that type, but maybe you have in this case a type five in your life at work, on your team, someone you're leading, your boss, somebody at home, maybe a friend, um, listen in as well because I think you'll get some additional understanding and insight about why they do what they do, and in some additional context about who they are and understanding them a bit better. So, without further ado, let's jump into this one. You're listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. All right, well, welcome back to another session where we are opening the case file on a specific Enneagram type. Today we are going to be opening that file on our type five. And I'm gonna be your host today, Sarah Wallace of Enneagram MBA, a company that gets to do team trainings for corporations and organizations and events. And I like doing these because it's a way to focus specifically on a type for three reasons. One is so that people who know that they are a type five can learn a little bit more about themselves, about what this type five energy is. Um, it's also for those who may be kind of teetering between am I a type five or something else? Hopefully, this will give some additional clues and clarification either way. And then I also like doing these because A, we get some information and then B, we get to hear from somebody in real life, which I'll be introducing her in just a moment, um, to learn more about the fives in our life. So we may not resonate with this, but there's probably a person or two on our teams and our lives somewhere that do. So this will give some additional insight and information about better communicating, collaborating, collaborating, just being in a relationship with that type five energy. Um, so those of you who may or may not be as familiar with the type five, um, they are sometimes known as the observer or the um innovator, um, the expert, the thought leader sometimes. And we'll get into why some of those nicknames have surfaced. Um, the the core driver here for our type fives is one that I've kind of um been talking more about. And we'll, I can't wait to hear from our informant how this resonates. Um, but I got this core driver from Mario Socorro, who does a lot of corporate trainings. Um, a lot of times when you hear about the five, you'll they'll you'll hear that they're striving to be capable and competent. And I think that is accurate. Um, I think even more accurate and clarifying is this feeling of wanting to be detached from heavy emotions, from other people's um drain on their time. Um, so we'll again we'll talk more a little bit about what that means. Initially, it might sound negative, but it's really a way so that they can focus on the knowledge, the data, the research that is so important for them to understand. So when they walk into a room or when they are, you know, approaching a project, they're focusing on the data, the information, the knowledge. Honestly, like at the end of the day, it's how can I, how can I read more, listen more, hear more, dive in more, and get that knowledge. Um, they will tend to have a tendency, this isn't 100% true for 100% of the fives, but they have a tendency to observe from afar and take time to process. So they may be somebody who is sitting quietly in a meeting, and from the outside, you may think, oh my gosh, they're not they're not engaged or they're bored or whatever. And really, it's they're absolutely taking in the information. They're just take kind of processing it from afar. They may not have an initial idea or a thought. Um, Marissa is on joining us live, and she said um that she asked, are fives visionaries? And yes, they're very innovative, they're very visionary. Um, sometimes sevens get that reputation, but fives very much have that superpower as well. Um, and then the other thing to know about our fives is their ability to manage their time and their resources. So protecting their time, um, protecting their resources is a priority for our fives. Um, we talked about superpowers. One of them is this ability to glean really key, important, useful insight from a lot of data and a lot of information. They're able to quickly kind of see the patterns, the connections, and combine it to share some really helpful data research with whoever it is or whatever project is needed. They're able to kind of see what others are not. Um, sometimes they have a tendency to overthink a little bit and kind of get in their head about needing more information before taking action. So for the five growth, it's going to be kind of balancing that. Um, they can isolate sometimes, um, just wanting to be with their, you know, alone with their knowledge and their resources and just uh they don't need people, they just need their books. Um, and then they have sometimes this can actually be an asset. And then other times it could be something to maybe look at um this ability to compartmentalize. And so, fives again, going back to that priority of wanting to protect their time and resource. If something bad is happening or they're experiencing a negative feeling, or somebody's bringing something negative to them, it's okay, well, that's happening in my personal life, but at work, we don't need to talk about that. I don't need to share about that. I honestly don't need to hear about that from you. So they kind of have an expectation that other people will also kind of compartmentalize in certain situations too. Um, they are in the head or the thinking center, which explains some of the overanalyzing, overthinking at times. And our fives are in this area too. This is this is important to know for those of us who are not in this in this uh category, that when we experience a problem, some people want to be hurt. They want to say, I'm really sad or I'm really mad. And a five tends to jump in and go into problem solving mode immediately. What needs to be done? Um, there's a rational solution. Let's let's investigate it, let's figure out what needs to be done, which again is a great in certain situations. In others, it can make that other person feel incredibly unseen, unheard, that's like, well, wait a minute, I just I didn't really want a problem solution here. I just wanted to vent. Um, and then when they get things done, I mentioned if you're leading a type five, if you are working side by side with a five, um, to give them time and space to kind of investigate, look at all the information, look at all the data, give them time to think about the solution or what the next step should be, and then process that. Um, the kind of just do it, just jump in, just wing it, um, isn't always helpful for our type fives. So that's kind of the the textbook description of our type fives. I want to bring in our type five informant now, Kathy, who is going to be talking to us here. I'm just gonna remove this for a second. Kathy, welcome to our case file review today.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Sarah, I am really excited about being here. And the whole time I was backstage, I was going, yes, yes. That sounds just like me, yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Well, before we dive in, um, would you share a little bit more about what you do and then how you knew that the type five was your dominant Enneagram type?

SPEAKER_00 11:03

So um I am again, my name is Kathy Ferris. I am an online business manager and basically I help business owners kind of take the critical task off their plate so that they can focus on what they do best. They're growing their business and uh helping clients, and I can kind of help people look at their back-end systems and make things you know a little more profitable and efficient for them behind the scenes where they can kind of focus with what they want to do.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I I always think like taps in so well to that ability to provide insight and like kind of get into the weeds and then make it meaningful, make those numbers, those processes actually be useful and meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yes, absolutely. So I'm able to really listen to problems that are going on in somebody's business, and then I can think about solutions pretty quickly, like, oh, I've got some ideas. I I can almost be a little overwhelming because I have several things in my mind, you know. So I have to remember that I have to present that in a little easier to understand way, and so we can kind of work on those things. So yeah, that's definitely the five, all the data that's in my head.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yes, yes. So, what was it like for your typing experience? Was it uh the process where it's like, oh, this is me, can't be any other type. Were you teetering between a couple or how what how what helps you land on the type five?

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Truly, when I read the type five, it immediately resonated with me that that's me because I do have a tendency to be in my head. I could listen to like if I'm trying to learn stuff, I have podcasts in my, you know, that I'm listening to. Like I'll start getting into a series where I'm listening to audiobooks and podcasts, and like I just absorb, so I want to absorb, absorb a lot of information. So I'm usually reading a number of things and and I can literally realize I haven't seen anyone in you know, in days because I am so in my head with different ideas, you know, and wanting to learn new things. So that for me, it five almost immediately hit me when we were looking at the types. Um, because I do, you know, I I can I could overanalyze, I could, you know, I so I could see all those things, the positives and the negatives right away, just spoke to me.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, yeah. And I I I hear that from other fives that um when you identify with that, a lot of times it is like, yeah, probably couldn't be anything else. Sometimes there's some confusion between three and fives, sometimes one and fives. Um, and we'll we'll get to some resources at the end. Um, if you are kind of stuck in between a few. Um, the other thing I would love to hear about, um, Kathy, I'm gonna share my screen again, is so our type fives, we talk about arrows a lot of times um as being the one of my favorite things about the Enneagram is the the how it fluid it is. And so it's not just oh, the snapshot of type five, but it's in growth. We have our wings, we have our stress. And what I have heard from others is in the identification process and then like gaining some insight, sometimes those arrows can be one of the most eye-opening pieces of the their Enneagram learning experience. And for our type fives, um, they have a stress arrow or sometimes a supporting um strategy of the type seven, which are striving to feel excited. And so our fives will kind of use that striving to feel excited to support all the knowledge and all the ideas and all the thinking that they're they're doing. Um, sometimes, though, when in stress or maybe you know not being as intentional, sevens can also become very scattered, very all over the place, have a very hard time focusing, which is another superpower of a five, but in times of stress, kind of fall into some of those qualities of a seven. Whereas on the other side of that, our type eight is known as the growth arrow or the neglected strategy, because an eight is striving to feel powerful. And so, you know, that's big and very visible and probably quick to act and lots of energy, which a five initially might resist a little bit. And that's why it can also be known as that neglected strategy. But ironically, that is one of the key areas of growth to focus on for our fives, not to become an eight, but to use that strategy of feeling powerful to enhance what they're already good at, what they're already, where they're already wanting to go. So I'm gonna pause just a minute there, Kathy. Does anything with the stress or even what you've noticed in in growth resonate with you and your own experience?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yes, for stress, for sure. I if I'm because I try to learn so many different things, if I'm under stress, it becomes extremely overwhelming. And I will, I will almost just freeze and not accomplish anything. So that that's something I work very hard to try to avoid feeling that stress um by doing something else, you know, I'll go and walk or something to try to break that up because it will just make it to where I accomplish nothing. So I have to be very careful about that. So I definitely have picked up on that with the seven tendency. Um, with eight on that side, um I would say when I feel like I am truly an expert in an area of information, I can project that in a very strong way. So I I can I can definitely tell I can look back over my career at different points and see that I probably was leaning more towards the eight in my work environment. Um, not necessarily at home, but in my work, you know, work environment. I if I'm feeling like I really understand something, I've been doing something for a long time, then it's far easier for me to be very decisive. I can make direct quite, you know, um lead people into influencing them to make certain decisions and things like that based off of what my knowledge is, almost to a point that I could go a little bit the other direction of wanting to overwhelm people with how much knowledge I have, you know, in a particular area when I'm really excited about what I'm learning about.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yes, yes, absolutely. Um, absolutely. I'm curious, um, I know before, as we were kind of talking to prepare for this a little bit, which maybe we'll share the funny story here in just a second about that, but um, you had mentioned you had listened to a couple um podcast episodes about other people's five experience. Um, and I know that you have been learning, you know, been on your own Enneagram self-discovery process for a while now. Has there been just a either like a big aha or just a story or key point that has made you feel like, oh my gosh, other people do this? It feels so good to know, or just anything that's been very validating.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah, I think when I was listening to some of your past podcast of um, I'm trying to remember, the the one that was the, because I think this is the one I am is a five-wing six. Okay. So just hearing how how she was sort of categorizing things like looking at things more in a more technical way, um, that is something that like I love technology. That's not something whereas traditionally people I've worked with in the past, like that makes them a little nervous. They're, you know, it's a little bit slower for them. For me, I love that kind of stuff. So when I was listening to her story, it was it really made a lot of sense to me that that's how I operate. When I, you know, if somebody tells me they want to do something new, that doesn't scare me when it comes to technology. Like, I'll figure it out eventually. Like, you know, I know I feel confident about those things. So to listen to some of those stories, it was definitely something I was like, that's oh yeah, that's me. You know, where I want to launch things, you know, or help somebody else. A lot of times it's help other people do these things. So I struggle a little bit with my own things because I've got so many ideas of what I want to try to do that it's far easier for me to focus in if it's something that I'm trying to help somebody else do. So if they're telling me very clearly that these are areas they're struggling in, I'm like, I can immediately jump in, think of solutions potentially for them. But for my own self, I over I almost tend to overanalyze because there's so many different paths I could take.

unknown 20:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Okay, so I I have a question. I want to go back to kind of the overview of our fives. Um, whatever you're comfortable sharing, because I know this is always like talking about the most personal thing, your personality. Um, but the I'm curious if that striving to feel detached and the motive to feel capable, competent, self-sufficient resonates with you. And if so, how have you seen that kind of show up at work or just in life in general?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Um, feeling detached, I would definitely say if I'm struggling with something in my personal life, if there's some sort of um difficulty or tragedy or something like that, I am very like I'm good in a crisis because I will completely detach from the emotions at hand. So I've had issues where things have happened that were very, you know, troubling that a lot of people will just have anxiety and it sort of lock them down. I don't do that right in the moment. Like I'm more into the problem solving mode immediately, almost to a point that it's like I sweep up, you know, if it's somebody else that's experiencing the issue, like I almost feel a little, you know, like we can take care of this. Come on, let's go. You know, we don't have time for the emotions. Let's, you know, let's roll. Yeah. Um, and then it's only afterwards, like when I'm kind of out of the crisis, out of the situation, and I feel like I've sort of helped to resolve whatever the problem is. That's when I start to all feel those emotions. And I generally like to do that all on my own. And I don't want so I don't I don't like to be attached, you know, to the emotion at the time of some something that's a crisis. I don't Like having the anxiety and things like that. I will do everything I can to avoid that at the time to not let it be something that bogs me down right then and there. I'll I'll do that later, you know, when it's yeah on my off time or yeah something like private. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So definitely I can relate to the striving to feel detached and I can throw myself into a lot of other things. I do compartmentalize my emotions. So I have to, I've been trying to, since you and I have been working together, I've tried to focus, you know, bring the what may be emotional for me, you know, I'll bring that up a little bit more often with people that I trust. If I feel comfortable in those situations, then I will try to use when everyone else is talking about an emotional story, I throw it out, you know, I sort of throw that lobin over the fence and say, okay, well, I have something emotional too, you know, because I don't really do that often. Yeah. You know, so it's kind of like I'll throw it in at the last second to, you know, say, I can do that. When I can feel emotions, you know. Yeah. So yeah. So I I could definitely relate to that.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

I'm so glad you said that because that that makes me think of um, I actually just had a a podcast interview today, and somebody asked me, like, what are some of the the biggest um takeaways people learn from the Enneagram? And I always think that one of them is getting a better picture of what growth looks like for the different types, because just what you said, you sharing an emotion or you know, whatever it is, and a story that's a little bit vulnerable about how you felt is huge versus somebody who, you know, maybe like our fours or a little bit more in touch with that and just very, you know, open about that. And so it's like there's a lot of good advice out there about what to do and how to live your life and how to work. And for some people, though, it's not great advice because they're already doing it and they're doing too much of it. Or it's it's um, you know, like to be open and share your emotions. Well, that may not be the best for you know, another type, but it's great advice for you. Um, and and so just understanding kind of what advice to filter in. And then on the outside, as somebody who knows you or knows your fellow fives in this particular example, when they do share a story or when they do open up, you know, let them know, like, oh my gosh, I feel you, or tell me more about that. You know, don't don't get defensive or shut them down because that this is a huge thing for them. Um, and just knowing that, and we all have those things, but for the fives, just what you said, Kathy, that that's one of the bigger ones um as far as growth goes for for our type fives. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Um, I'm I'm curious too. I want to get in here to our work pet peeves. Um, our fives um tend to like a lot of alone time. Um, group work isn't maybe their first preference, um, especially when they're not in charge of getting to pick their own group. Um, another thing that I have heard is that they will be asked to look into something. And so they will spill their time and energy into researching, pulling the data, exactly what we've talked about, only to present it to their boss or the group and and then say, Oh, uh, we actually changed directions. We we don't need that anymore, which is so frustrating for anybody, but for a five, it's soul crushing. Yes. Um, and then when goals are not clearly outlined, when the expectation isn't clearly outlined, which I don't know if this falls into this or not, Kathy, but I I think you'll be okay with me sharing this. Kathy and I were laughing before we got started because I've I've been a little behind this week. So Kathy was asking me, could I see the slides this morning? And I was like, Oh, haven't done them yet. And she was like, I would just like to be able to prepare and think a little bit. And, you know, I I know that. And I told her that. I said, I know what I'm doing to you. Um, but for those of us who may not be aware that we have a five in front of us or that we're working with a five, you know, just winging it, no, yeah, yeah, y'all be fine. Um, that that's terrifying and and not, you know, and kind of not setting them up for success. Um, so again, just kind of knowing those kinds of things. I didn't I didn't do it on purpose, and I already apologize.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

No, I know. I knew you knew me well enough to know that I would be like, okay. So of course I did all my side research.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yes, yeah. You see, you would jump into like, yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Researching it. I'll look it up. I'll look it up.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Yes, I'll look it up. Um, and then the other one that I wanted to bring back up is we had talked about, but boundaries tend to be a really great thing that fives can do, like setting very clear boundaries. Um, maybe sometimes too much. Um, but when somebody brings drama or gossip or uh just emotionally flooding them, it can be incredibly irritating, especially in the workplace, but but really anytime. Um, is there any anyone on here that you're like, oh yes, or is there anything you would add?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Um I I would agree really with this entire list. Like I, as far as like getting surprised at the last minute on a project, that that is definitely a pet peeve. That's happened to me a couple of times throughout my when I was in my corporate career, um, where I because I take it so seriously, I want to be able to, well, you know, give all the information. And I remember a time where I did, I had done a lot of research, I prepared, I go to present something that really was talking about processes and efficiencies and things that we could do better that could save the company money. And here were some issues that we needed. I had solutions to the problems I was identifying. And when I got to this meeting, I ended up the manager came out and said, Hey, we're not really as into it, we're gonna cut your time down to like it was something where I had prepared for like 10 or 15 minutes. It wasn't like I was gonna be doing an hour-long presentation, but he totally changed everything and really didn't see any value of what I was presenting at all. And what was the craziest thing about it was I had actually put off my youngest nephews. I my sister had invited me to go to the birth of my youngest nephew. Like it was gonna be, she knew her last child, and I put that off because I was like, well, there's this important business thing, you know, I need to help them understand what might help, you know, and when it got dismissed, I it was soul crushing. It's the one, you know, sort of experience. It happens, you know, it happens in a corporate environment, but that one really stuck with me because I felt like I sacrificed a lot to try to do something for the good of the company and to have it sort of dismissed at the last minute was like, oh, you know, it really was difficult for me to deal with. Um, but again, you know, those things happen, you know, things change all the time. But for me, it was definitely a harder experience. So I can relate to that, you know, as far as like when processes aren't efficient. So one of the things I noticed was that like I'm okay with following rules and procedures if the processes are efficient.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

If they're not, then it feels very much like I don't like to waste my time. Then I want to fix the process, and it and I resent a little bit of when somebody insists I do it just for the sake of doing it because it's the process, that type of thing would frustrate me in a work environment. Like, but there's a better way of doing it. Yeah, like we can make this more efficient, you know. So, so there's there's definitely those things certainly resonate with me.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Um, Marissa just mentioned, she said, funny, I'm an Enneagram one, yet hearing about five makes me think I might have a mix. Do the Enneagram characteristics change based on whether someone is an introvert or an extrovert? Um, that's a great question. Um, and one of the things that I always recommend looking into more are the instinctual biases, otherwise known as the subtypes, sometimes where you kind of overlay this preserving, teaming, or pioneering energy with your Enneagram type. And sometimes that is the difference. If you tend to be more, if you have this like pioneering or one-on-one energy, is what you'll hear it called, um, they tend to be more kind of okay in the spotlight. Um, so they will get their needs met of their type strategy, but doing it in this specific way, where there's others who, regardless of what your kind of motive is, what your core desire is, you'll take maybe a backseat. So sometimes the that instinctual biases will play a role into kind of how your type is presented. Um, I'm curious, Kathy, it's okay because we didn't talk about it. Um, I know though, just you've you've done your own Enneagram research too, but is there any additional layers of the five? Whether it's um, I know you talked about your wing six probably influences more than the four. Do you have you looked or are you or have you landed on a subtype or anything in that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

You know, I haven't, but I could see where the one, like, is that more of the perfectionist? Yes. I could see where the one that that can happen because I do like to see things, you know, like I really believe in the right and wrong, you know, and so it's kind of more black and white at times. And so I would have a tendency to be a perfectionist. And I did years ago when I started to see it almost became a little bit crippling because then I realized everyone around me wasn't a perfectionist, so it would drive me a little crazy because you know, people weren't doing it the way it seemed like was the right way. And so I, you know, I could resonate with some of the things with the one, but I don't know that I I haven't gotten to that stage quite yet of totally fully embracing or understanding what the subtypes are. That's probably our next one.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Yeah, we'll talk we'll talk about we'll talk about that next. That's always so interesting. But you're right. I actually I think it's on the next slide. Um, there is a a podcast episode and a YouTube video about um, here we go, the one versus the five, because that is a a common um, am I this or that? Or, you know, what are the differences? Um, same with three and five. I think I mentioned there's some, there's some uh very similar qualities. Um, so though that might be a good place to dive in more if you happen to be, I know Marissa is identified as a one, but if you are also struggling with like, I have one, I have five, what's the difference here? Um, that might be a good place to check in with. Um, before we start to wrap it up, um, I'm curious, you know, there are a lot of, you know, stereotypes and commonalities with our type fives for for good reason, but it's always not always, not every five, not all the time. And so there can be some misconceptions around that five energy for those of us who are living and working and in relationships with fives. Um, one of I think the biggest misconceptions is that they don't have emotions. So I love that you touched on that, Kathy, about I have them. It's just I'm not gonna deal with them in that moment right there. I'm kind of gonna put put them to the side. Um, the other one sometimes that comes up is that they don't need other people and they just always want to be alone. Um, that's probably not also true 100% of the time. And then another one that can come up is that they are insensitive or just kind of aloof or or not dialed in. And I think that comes from the fact that they're in their heads, they're not verbalizing it necessarily, they're they're thinking about it. So, um, does any one of those really hit home with you, or would you add anything?

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah, I I would definitely say as far as not needing other people, I don't need other people when I'm trying to figure out problems. Like I sometimes will approach other people for, you know, to kind of bounce ideas off of. I do like that aspect. Um, as far as like having people in my life, a lot of times what it is is I'm just more selective as to the people I do have in my life. So I have a smaller group of people that I deeply trust. So once I've opened that door, then it's something I'm one of those people that, you know, my family will often say, it's like I'm I'm extremely loyal and very protective of the people that are close to me. Um, so it's important to me that they're, you know, I do pay attention and that they're, you know, everything I can do to try to help them, you know, like I'll go to that extreme, but I'm not necessarily that way with just anybody, you know, I am much more selective as to the people I have in my involved in my life. And I like to have deeper relationships. So if it's somebody that's in my life that's a very surface level relationship that I've kind of discovered after a few times that it's just going to be kind of surface level, I will tend to sort of move on. And I don't necessarily just collect a group of friends for the sake of having more and more people in my life. I like to just have a small group that I fully feel comfortable with and trust.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah, yeah. And you know, and even those kind of things, I heard from somebody over on Instagram when I was sharing um that we were gonna have this conversation. I there are six, maybe wing five, and they were saying, I feel the same way about surface level relationships and small talk. And she said, I think that asking, like talking about you know, your morning, like just small talk in the morning at an office is like such a waste of time. It irritates me.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Yes, yes, I could definitely relate to that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Yeah, and so you know, sometimes that's required, and you, you know, you might need to play some office politics, or you know, the person in front of you, you know, needs that and you're you're delivering, you know, that's one of your clients. So of course, but then also again, on on the outside of that five, knowing that, you know, we probably have a story that the rest of us are telling ourselves about what that means, like, oh, it's just grumpy or uh insensitive, doesn't care, you know. So that's why this can help too, regardless of if we know that you're a five or not, just knowing those things, you know, you're probably not gonna say, How are you? How's it going? Tell me about your day, how is your new year in your email? You're just gonna send me this.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yes, that is exactly. I've actually had that come up as an issue from time, you know, where I I've had, you know, employees that work for me that were very, you know, wanted to say that kind of stuff, like, how are you? What you know, and for me, I'm just direct. And so that would a lot of times be perceived in an email context as being, well, she doesn't care, she doesn't, you know, she doesn't have time for this. Um, and sometimes that's true, you know, but but I recognize that P there are people that need that. So I had to start to adapt a little bit with some people to okay, I know they want a little bit of interaction in the email before we get started, so they're more engaged to want to try to, you know, do what I'm asking for them to do. Whereas other people you realize you could just be more direct. So I could definitely I could relate to that. And even the office politics, I could I could play the office politics, but it was very draining to me. Yeah. So I would find myself doing it for just a period of time, and then it would be so draining to where I'd have to escape and kind of be on my own. And generally, the end my personal time in the end of the day, it would be like I wouldn't take calls, I wouldn't really talk. So I could go to the grocery store after work and be not say a word to anybody just because I was like, ugh, that's just too much. There's too much that's happened today, and it was exhausting. Like I had to sort of be able to have time alone to be able to regroup.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yes, yeah. And that is one of those foundational things of the five is just that kind of managing and and very aware because I think that can be draining for a lot of people, but it's the awareness that sometimes we're lacking. And so we'll just kind of push through, push through until we're burnt out. But fives tend to be a little bit more in touch with like, how am I doing? It's draining, need something else here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

I would rather start earlier in the day and stop earlier in the afternoon so that I could go walk or go, you know, shut it down. I'll work late if I need to, but it starts to mentally it starts to drain me to a point that I recognize I'm not gonna be as productive. So don't waste my time. You know, I need to stop here. I'll start first thing in the morning, you know, and I'll be able to be fresh with it. Otherwise, it's you know, we're just I'm gonna spin my wheels. It will not be as good as if I just started again the next day.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah, it's like that law of diminishing returns.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Um, well, you know, for for those of you who want to dive in more to learning about the type five for yourself or for others, on the Enneagram NBA YouTube channel, there's some resources. Whoops, the podcast. We have a couple of type five um guests sharing their real life experiences, which are always really helpful and interesting to learn about, um, Enneagram MBA podcast. And then um, if you know that you are a five, there is a guidebook that you can grab that just deep dives into all things type five. If you want to get yourself a mug, we have those over there. Um, before we wrap it up, um, though, Kathy, I was any any final words. I know I'm putting you on the spot, so no pressure, but is there any final words that you would want to share? Maybe anything that I haven't asked you about type five, the Enneagram personal awareness, um, to kind of make this interview feel complete?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Well, I think really the big thing is I think you and I have been working together for a little bit. And I think it it's been very helpful for me to now that I have a better understanding of the type five, I can I give myself a little bit more grace in knowing that okay, it it sometimes will frustrate me that I'm trying to learn so many different things. Like, why don't I just let it go? You know, or why do I need to learn all of this? And I realize after learning more about the Enneagram and the type five, just realizing that's just my personality, that's just part of who I am. I I can let it go without it being a point of frustration. That need to be an expert, you know, recognizing that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it would drive me a little crazy because it's like, you know, no one, you know, people don't seem to care about this item, you know. So so I think it's been very helpful during the time that you and I've worked together to kind of help me start to appreciate where I could throw in a little bit more emotion, where I can kind of change the way I look at things and sort of relax in some of the areas where I would be mostly in my head overanalyzing something.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Yeah, so well said. It's you know, appreciating your strengths, accepting those types of things, and then also having an understanding of you know where um growth opportunities are for you specifically. So so well said. Well, Kathy, I appreciate you being here and sharing. Um, where can people learn more about you if they're looking to work with you or just say, Kathy, you read my mind today. I gotta tell you, I'm gonna type five, too. It really recognizes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yep. That's all right.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

And Farah is spelled F-A-R-A-H. And we'll include the links and in the show notes and uh YouTube notes and all that kind of thing. But uh I appreciate it so much. Thank you for opening up and uh yeah, we'll see you around LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yes, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.