SPEAKER_00 0:00

In today's episode, we are answering a pretty big question. And the question is, what does race have to do with the Enneagram? And to help us answer this question, fellow Enneagram guide and life empowerment coach, Jessica Denise Dixon, will be sharing her real life experience, her professional expertise, her insight on this topic to give us some more context about the Enneagram in general, the different types, how we think about them, and then also just a deeper understanding of ourselves and of other people. And right now I'm in uh Jessica's anti-racism and me online course. I'm about halfway through. And in module two, there is some education and content around our identity and who are we? Who am I? And the Enneagram can help us answer a part of that, give us some language, give us some context to be able to describe what that is like for us. But there's all these other things that also play into that, play into our personalities, and then play into how our type might be expressed. And in her course, she talks about things like the neighborhood that we grew up in, obviously, race, culture, um class, socioeconomic class, what we grew up in, where we are right now, our gender, um, our skin color, um, do we have health issues? Are we, you know, able-bodied? Um, what is our what is our um nation of origin, citizenship, our body size, what's our family role currently, and what was it growing up? So all these other things. And this is just a short list of some of the things that she talks about. This is so good, so good. Um, and so there's I I really appreciated that because in this conversation, you'll hear that there could be, you know, five type eights in a room, but how they behave, what they look like, how they present might be very different. Some of them maybe even opposite of what you might think a type eight would look like on the outside um or behave on the outside show up as. Um, but all these things can factor into how that type gets expressed. And it's so much deeper than just, you know, memes on social media, which we we talk about a lot. They're fun, um, but you know, they they absolutely don't paint the full picture. And so we get more of the full picture inside this interview with Jessica, and I'm really excited to introduce her to you and to jump into this important conversation. You're listening to the Enneagram MVA Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MVA podcast. Today I am joined by Jessica Denise Dixon, and she is joining us as an embodiment life coach. We're gonna get into her type in a little bit, but she is. I'll just go ahead and spill the beans joining us as an Enneagram type A. And um, today she is being, she's very willing, and I appreciate this, to just dive into the deep end with me right away. And we're gonna talk about what race has to do with the Enneagram. So before we get into that, I want to bring you in Jessica. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Thank you. And I personally think that this is a great place to start. So, you know, I I'm an eight, and so I love to go go big or go home, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah, I I thought so. You know, I was like, I think if anybody can do this, is the this this personality. So um, well, and before we were before we hit record, we were kind of joking about some of our questions and we were like, oh yeah, just like a casual, just chill, relaxed conversation. But I I do think this is important. And the reason why I wanted to have this conversation was because there is so much that you can do with the Enneagram. There's so much you can do with self-awareness. And so just bringing to light some of those different ways that you can grow, that uh different ways that you can understand others. We talk a lot about that too. And this is one very important piece is understanding people's culture, their background. You know, sometimes gender plays into it, socioeconomic class, like all of these other things, um, beyond just kind of the fun write-up about each of the types. So thanks for being willing to have this conversation, Jessica. Well, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

I like this work, so I'm happy.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I'm I'm happy too. I'm happy to. Um, so let's do it. Tell me what the heck does race have to do with the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

This is the cry of the white male when I bring up, you know, identity and how it, you know, impacts our Enneagram work. And I think it's such an important question. And so, how does it? So, one of the things that I'm really, really present to is that we have this beautiful system that has three centers of intelligence that we have the body triad, that we have the heart triad, and then we have the head triad. And I'm I think I was shocked when I got into like the more mainstream Enneagram work rather than just doing it at the universities that I worked at. And I saw that people were having conversations about the body triad without actually talking about their body. Like, how can you really talk about your sense of taking in information through your body? And how can that not be impacted by your gender, by your by your race, by these things? They how could they not be? And so if we're having conversations about the body triad taking in information that way, I'm kind of like, we're missing something if we're not actually talking about about race. But even going a step farther, our Enneagram type is this important aspect of one aspect of our identity. It's part of our ego structure that gives us a personality. Without an ego structure, we don't live. So it's a good thing to have one, right? It gives us our sense of what's good and what's bad, what we should pursue, what our ideals should be, um, what success is. That's not a bad thing, but it also trips us up. But it's simply one part of our identity. And if we are unwilling or unable to understand how other parts of our our identity are also shaping how we express this part, we're gonna miss out on a lot of things. So we have the Enneagram, which is again this part of our ego structure. We have our socialization, which is a pro no one in the world um gets through life without a socialization process. Yeah, all it means is that it's the process that we internalize culture. So from before the time that we're born, we're born into a culture, right? It's the culture's already doing its thing before, and then we're born into it, and then you know, for years we internalize it on an unconscious level, on a pre-verbal level, because that's how our brains work. We're taking in all this, all of this information as children, and then around six or seven, our brains start to change. We have a lot of different um ways of thinking about things. We can think in a lot more nuanced ways around that time, and we can make a lot more decision, we have a lot more autonomy and we can make more decisions for ourselves around that age. But before then, we're kind of at the mercy of whatever the culture is our family culture, religious cultures, the culture of educational systems. Um and so we internalize these aspects of culture and they teach us the right way to be, also what to avoid and the wrong way to be. And so we know if we saw so-and-so get punished for something, we know that that's the wrong thing. So if we saw someone get punished as, you know, um, around something in our home, that's one thing. But then we go into school and we see that someone else get punished for that thing. And then we go to church and someone else gets punished for that thing. So we know if it happens in multiple places, that's a really important thing to not violate. And so that is always going to be something, the ways that we internalize culture are always going to be impacting our Enneagram expression. And so one of the aspects that I think is important to talk about is privilege. And privilege is a concept that makes people really, really squeamish. And I get it, it's uncomfortable if you have it to talk about it. But it basically says that in a world that has inequity, um, in a world that is focused on competition and power up, power over, that there's going to be inequities. And that means that someone is going to be on the top, and those people have privilege. So the more privilege you have, the better off you likely will be, or the less barriers you will have within society. Now, if you're doing Enneagram work and you don't think that that's going to be impacted by your privilege, then it's likely that there's some form of spiritual bypass that's happening. Because even when I first was learning about the Enneagram and I read about the levels of development, I was like, some of the unhealth or the average, quote, average aspects of the type eight, I'm like, only wealthy white dudes can do that. And it'd be and it'd still be considered average. If I did that, I'd be fired, I'd be kicked out, I'd be branded some, you know, ungodly name. Like if I did that, it would be so out of the bounds of what's appropriate. So I'm like, all right. So this is the levels, quote, the levels of development for people who have privilege and are and are able to, you know, have access to the Enneagram. But what about the rest of us?

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

What about the rest of us? Like being dominating or taking things over. I'm like, that's that's a healthy expression of a type eight.

unknown 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

But it is if you consider, you know, what the the dominant idea of what power is, which is power over, that's dominating, that's coercive. And white men who have that kind of power are seen of as um are seen as leaders. Right, natural leaders, right, natural born, you know, whereas the same, you know, women or you know, non-men in general are seen as troublemakers, they're too bossy, they need to know their role. They're a bitch. Sorry if you have to bleep that out. Um, but that's like so. If we're if we're looking at at our Enneagram work, it's going to be impacted by our identity. And our identity is always impacted by societal norms at the time. Something that may be a privilege now might not have been seen or even thought of as a privilege 20 or 25 years ago. And so if it's important for us to have that as a way of processing through what are our next steps in our work?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

So, so good. Okay, so there's there's a couple things I want to go back to, but one of those I think is just the the starting point for everybody's Enneagram journey, which is the typing process. And you were saying how a lot of times that type eight like stereotypical behaviors are you know awarded for a certain gender or certain type of person. And then especially with that type eight, we'll talk a lot about the type eight and then the type two, which it tends to be more of like the female to be a good mom, to be, you know, I'm sure you have some things to say about that too. So even in the typing process, and and I want you to, but it's um like I'm learning a lot how those again, why we cannot look at behavior and why that motive is so important because you as a type A gonna be very different than somebody else with more privilege and understanding those things. So let if we can, just kind of starting there, what mistakes maybe are we making right now when we're going to try and uncover our type? And maybe what should we be doing instead to take into account some of those things?

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Yeah. Um so for those of you who can't see me, I am a black woman, and that is a significantly different experience than being a white male. Um and when I was first starting to hear about the Enneagram, read about the Enneagram, all of the descriptions sounded like white men. And I was like, yo, what about me? And so I think as practitioners, as people who are are maybe leading people in work, or even if you're, you know, just starting your own journey of the Enneagram. So the thought that I just had, and I'll just go on this little tangent, is I think that, you know, some people I'm sure find a lot of value in theories like the tri-type. But what I want to say about that is that not everything is our Enneagram type. And what I have seen over and over and over is people trying to make sense of their experience of themselves and their experience of their world. And so they look to a theory like tri-type to say, oh, I'm not exactly like this description, I don't act like this behavior of the type that's that's described by so-and-so teacher. So therefore, it must be that I have a type four fix in my tri-type, and that's the reason why. And I'm like, baby girl, have you ever looked at the way that you were raised and your parents' emotional availability? And have you looked at the culture's expectation, overarching culture's expectation of how you're gonna show up? Because you actually might find a lot of things there that are able to help you do the deeper work of your actual type rather than feel like you need some other theory to put on yourself. And I think it's, you know, maybe I'll love tritype at some point, but the way that I've seen it used over, you know, the last decade that I've been in the Enneagram world, I'm like, this isn't it. It's used as like a way of explaining away things, but that's one, that's one aspect of the Enneagram. The point of our of our Enneagram is to do our work. And so if it's not leading you actually into the work, we have to, we have to actually take a pause and say, what is the usefulness of this then? Now, I I think with typing, it's really, really important to to be able to look at the patterns of our when I'm doing typing sessions with people, I one of the things that I say at the beginning is you may you may notice when I ask you a question about something that it is you show up in a specific way because it was your family culture. Or you show up in a specific way because of your alcoholic father, or you show up in a specific way because that's the way that you had to show up at church or at school. And so if you notice, I actually have my own sense of that, but who I've had to be is because of these things. Let's talk about both of them, because both of those things give insight. So I think that you know, even tests are very binary, and and whether you are going to be accurately tested is going to depend upon who's writing the test. Do they have any kind of cultural competence? Have they interacted with people who have a different expression of the type? You know, or is it just, you know, white male so-and-so is the prototype? And if you're outside of that, it's going to be harder for you to find yourself, even if you have all the self-awareness in the world. Because of course, tests are also based upon our own sense of self-awareness. But it's also like those tests, who those tests are written by and their bias about what the type looks like is going to impact that. And so we have to, it's okay to slow down, you know, it's okay to slow down and take our time. And to this is why when I'm teaching the Enneagram, I always break it down. I break it down to what are our core motivations, our core drives, our core fears, our core desires. And then what is our reactivity? So when there's an existential kind of threat to us, or when we're moving closer to the thing that we fear, our passion, fixation, and defense mechanism, they show up. And because there, our ego structure wants to, you know, it's just making sure that we're trying to move towards success, it's going to be preemptive. So we may notice, like, for example, the passion for the eight is lust. And a lot of eights are like, well, I don't want to get rid of lust. Lust is just part of me. You know, I like the energy. And I'm like, that energy has been habitually um expressed for you to protect yourself. So it's not to say that you don't need it at all or you that you don't even want it, but it's to say, when I notice that I'm being extra whatever, can I get present to what do I feel like is a threat to me? What do I feel like is triggering me right now? And so I break it down, and that's a slower way. And people don't really like that. They want to test to tell them who they are. And I get that because we're we've been in an educational system where tests have determined so much about who we are. When we're in elementary school, tests tell us who we are. Getting into college and graduate school, tests tell us who we are, but that's not what the Enneagram is. The joy and the delight of the Enneagram is actually what do I discover about myself? Not just what is some outs outside entity, whether it be a test or even another person, what are they telling me that I who are they telling me that I am? So it's, you know, I find a lot of a lot of joy and value in and in looking at those things and looking at, okay, when I got into the fight with so and so, what was I triggered around?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Because that points me then to my to my core motivations.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Or it or it points me to my reactivity that says something was felt like it was at threat, and what a part of me felt like I was at threat. And then once we do that, we can really start to say, like, okay, I I was at threat because, you know, growing up in my household, my emotions were seen as a liability. And so there, and and because if I if I shared emotion in some way, I was punished, you know, now I react in this way. And it's like it's about doing real, the real comprehensive inner work that takes into account all of the parts of who we are, and doesn't leave anything just willy-nilly or try to fit something in the in the box of our type when our type is one part of us, it's one part of our psyche. We have all of this other experience that is so worth being acknowledged, you know. If if you have to explain something away instead of being able to actually just maybe deal with the fact that you were abused as a child, well, how far do you really want to go? Or you, you know, maybe you maybe you like bypassing, and that's cool too. Some people really use the Enneagram as a tool to kind of bypass other parts of their reality. And I get that because reality sometimes is really, really hard. Yeah, but there's also a gift of being present to our reality that if we're not, if we don't have it, it doesn't always feel like it. But then when we get it, you know, one of my white clients was like, I can't imagine doing the Enneagram work without this identity work. I'm like, I know, and people do it all the time, but you know, she's able to see, like, oh, I come from a family of people who withhold their emotions. Yeah. So I knew that it was actually safest for me to withhold my emotions or else. And then I have these also these procliv proclivities of holding my emotions back. So when I am able to see, oh, it's not just my type, it's also my family system. Well, it might be a little bit harder for you to just drop into your body as a type five. Right. You might actually need a lot of time. You might need a lot of spaciousness for yourself. And so it allows us to have a, I think it a more grace for ourselves, more compassion for ourselves in the journey, but also more insight.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

And you know, um, talking about that, so you know, what does growth look like in this case for the type five? I know that you are also, you have also talked about how um our advantages and privilege not only shape how our type may be presented, but also what growth looks like for each type. Anything you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Oh my God. Absolutely. Well, I could talk about this too. Okay. But I, you know, I think, you know, I'll I always like I try to stick to my type because it's easier to pick on your type than it is to pick on other people's. There are a lot of people who pick on other people's types, and I'm like, that's kind of a low blow, you know. Um, so I'll pick again on the Enneagram eight. So as a black woman, my voice, especially when I've had male supervisors, for example, has not been heard. It has not been listened to. Um, I have been called angry when I'm not. Um, I've been called angry when I'm passionate. I have been, you know, chastised and sent to um seminars on how to um um communicate effectively. And so my work isn't necessarily going to be to not take up space. Whereas, you know, maybe a white male's work as an eight is actually to not take up as much space to actually work on those energetic boundaries and how much space are you taking up? Because if you if you already have privilege, you are naturally taking up more space, but then you also have it are an eight, which means that your energy is taking up a lot of space. So your work as a as a white male eight might actually be to pull in your energy and to wield it with much more precision, and mine as a black woman might actually be to expand my energy if it's safe, but I have to actually look at like what is that level of safety for me? White men have to look at what is the level of safety for them because it doesn't for white men, it doesn't feel safe to feel like if I pull back, I'm going to lose privilege, I'm going to lose power. And most that I know aren't really down for that. They're not interested in that experience. But when you recognize that privilege is about inequity within society, maybe it makes it a little bit easier for you to be like, all right, if I take a step back and that creates space for another person, then that's wonderful because I don't have to be in this scarcity mindset. When I can see that maybe there's plenty for all of us, then I, you know, I can I can move and flow within and not have to just be like one expression of myself all the time.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Yeah. And I I'm so glad that we're having this conversation because it it we do have this tendency. I guess it's just our our brain wants to make things easy and like the least amount of thinking and like let's get there the quickest. And it's like, okay, what does growth look like? And we have like those our growth arrows, but again, it's just like adding that additional layer. So I I love that we're um I always say I like to leave actually with more questions. Like I'm not here to to give people answers, but leave with more questions. And I think that's another one of those considerations or questions to to ask ourselves, not just our type, but like you're saying, gender, culture, race, you know, upbringing, all these things go into it. And it's not just a simple, here's your five growth steps.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

If only.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Right, right. If only. If only. Um, I'm curious, and and here I am, maybe being a little reductionist and just you know, straight to it. So call me out if I am. But I'm wondering, we've talked a lot about some of the unconscious bias that we might have for our type eights, and I understand why being you're being a type eight. Um, we can pick on a seven. I I'm identify most as a seven, but I'm wondering, are are there others that tend to get mistyped quite a bit? Like I know a lot of times women struggle with the two. Um, so maybe we can talk about that. But any others jumping out at you, especially that might show up in like the workplace. Um, threes are another one that I see people wanting to be initially. And um, what that might look like, you know, again, can be very different. Um, so any any just kind of like, oh, this is a really common miss miss or stereotype.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Well, of course, now that you asked, I can't think of any. I I think of them all the time because I talk about them. I'm like, this, you know, this is a common mistype for this, or um, you know, some within some Asian cultures, ones and threes can mistype. Yes, because there's a sense of you have a you gotta be perfect, and then B, you have to be successful.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

So if you grew up in that culture, you may actually find it hard to determine whether you're a one or a three, because there is this sense that of both, like you got to be perfect, and you're not allowed to slip out of that. And you know, you also are expected to be like a lawyer or a doctor, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Oh, yeah, I that's interesting you brought that one up. I was actually just talking to an Asian woman the other day, and she was explaining she might be a two, but also the three based on her upbringing.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

So yeah, it's so important to have that because I remember when I was I had a you know a Korean um employee and we were talking about all this stuff, and you know, he was saying, like, my culture tells me that this is how I'm supposed to show up. I don't always feel that, but how do I know? And I'm like, how do you know? You know, I'm always like putting it in front of people. I'm like, you tell me how you know. It's like, and and my answer really was like, okay, so maybe that's not where we start. Maybe we start with these are the experiences that I've had of myself. And in this moment, what is my work? What is the work that's right in front of me right now? You know, maybe you identify or you're you're between like a three and a one. Okay, what's coming up for you the most right now? Is it like your image and how you're seen and being successful? Is it that you gotta get everything right and be a perfectionist? And I and I and I give a lot of space because we're complex people, you know, whiteness kind of we're we're the way that we're enculturated into that is reductionist. It does reduce us to and and it's it makes us smaller in that way, and we get to be with complexity, we get to be with nuance, and that is one of the beautiful aspects, I think, of being a human being.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

And when we have to like make everything small so we can put it in our boxes, that is the opposite of what Enneagram work is and anti-racism, to be really honest. Um, I believe that Enneagram work and anti-racism work, they expand us so that we have a fuller expression of who we are. They don't make us smaller. So if we find that any of our work is doing that, we have to really check in with ourselves and ask ourselves some hard questions about what is the work that I'm actually doing? What is the work that I maybe think that I'm doing that maybe isn't really and just giving ourselves the the grace to go into those questions.

unknown 30:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah. If you would be willing, I'm curious to hear a little bit more about your initial typing journey to begin with. And I think this kind of plays into that, where you first, I think you said you took 20 tests and they all said that you were this one type.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Oh, yeah. I have I have taken, yeah, probably even more now. Since, you know, but in those first years, I was just like just soaking up the Enneagram in any way that I could. So I found the Enneagram when I had gotten a promotion and I was responsible for professional development. And so now I was going to be, you know, responsible for making sure that my full-time staff were having really good opportunities for growth. And I was like, what are we gonna do? I had done Myers Briggs and True Colors and Strengths, and okay, they were okay, but I was looking for something different. I was like, I want something that feels like just fresh. Yeah. And I did an internet search, I got on the Googs, and uh Google brought me to this PDF that talked about the Enneagram types, and it just went over each Enneagram type, and I was just awed by it. I was like, wow, this is potent. Because it's not just about, you know, the the Myers Briggs, like, you show up like this in relationships. It's like, okay, I mean, that's nice, it's nice to know, but this felt like, oh, this is about not just what's good about me or my strengths, but also like, where might I need some support? Where might I where might my shit smell a little bit more than I thought? And it just felt like it was like this introduction into the parts of ourselves that we weren't really looking at.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Um, and so I really kind of fell in love with it. But of course, because I was so used to tests, the first thing I did was go find a test. And I've taken a lot since. And I may mainly get typed as an Enneagram too. And I get it because especially when I first I mean, there's maybe maybe three have typed me accurately as an eight.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Um, and my friend was like, you might be a social too. And I'm like, oh, maybe, maybe. I'm I'm I'm open. I'm I'm actually really open to not being an eight. Because it's like my it's not life or death. Because the work, it's all about the work, right? So if I am or am not an eight, like I won't die if I realize that I'm another type, but I will have done really, really beautiful, heart-opening, compassionate work around myself, attunement work. So I'm never gonna be like, oh well, you know, like I can't believe things were, you know. It's like, yeah, okay. Um I'm gonna pause, get my get my train of thought back.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Yeah, that's okay. I did I gotta do that too sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

I'm like, wait, where am I? Where am I going? All right, so yeah, so I I typed as a two, but I was also like deep into white evangelical Christianity. The messages that I got were around being the Proverbs 31 woman who sounded a lot like an Enneagram, too, did it all with a disregard of herself, yeah. And that was who I who I was supposed to be, but lust was the opposite of who I was supposed to be, and I've always been like a sensual, kind of sexual person, and so I've and when I was like really deep into that, it was like this is sin, lust is sin, so I can't be that. So yeah, eight might be close, but it's not really who I am, and it took a few years, it took looking into the instincts, it took hearing actual women talk about the in their Enneagram type and not just white males. Like when I heard women, I'm like, oh, there's a this there's another kind of expression than the ones that I've read in books that always felt like white dudes. Like, this is amazing. And when I came to, oh, oh, honey, like you really are you're an eight. Like everything just like made sense in my life. The feedback about me being intense or me being abrasive, or you know, like a lot of things. I'm like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, that's why that happened. God made sense, yeah. And it was just this beautiful like opening for me.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Yeah. And that's how that's how it is. And and you know, it's like it's not who we want to be, but you know, or think we should be. But like you were saying, this is yeah, oh, I I do these things.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Um I wish I really had like someone to be able to be like, hey, this look at your upbringing, look at the fact that your mom is probably an Enneagram too. And you know, she was trying to protect my, you know, uh just big, big emotions, big, big emotions in a little body is what she saw. So she did not want that to be hurt, knowing that she was going to send her little chocolate baby out into a world that hates it, that despises it. And so I I have to look and honor that. You know, I got the messages that I got about my energy and about my all of that stuff because she was so desperately wanting me to be safe in the world where she knew white people are gonna be on some bullshit, and you know, that I might get hurt because of it. And it's like, man, I wish that someone had been able to ask the question well, what was it like growing up for you? What was your socialization like? What is your ideal of what it means to be a woman and and what things have characterized that? And so that's why I hope that I can offer that to people now. Because I know I don't believe that this work is just for people of color. I think it's important for all of us, for each of us, to be able to ask those questions, to look into those parts of ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah. And and I was actually gonna ask you, because when we're talking about the Enneagram and race, two things come to mind. It's like kind of two paths that I think about. And one is people of color and not seeing themselves represented and kind of like the journey that you have talked about and seeing other ways for their type to be presented. And then there's also you were talking about anti-racism work and like what should maybe white people be aware of when it comes to like how their type is maybe contributing to the problem? Do you have any thoughts, or I'm sure you have thoughts, but in any places for um white people to start kind of looking at how to use their type to maybe start to understand what they need to take accountability for or what impact they might have? Is there anything about the type structure that could help us kind of see? Like, for example, I was thinking or I was reading something about um type sevens, for example, what I identify with, want to put that positive spin on everything and kind of reframe and not necessarily look at the reality. Um, and so anything, anything on that that you would that you would be willing to share?

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Yeah, I mean, I I really the work is the foundation of the work is the same, and what it looks like for each of us is going to be different. And so, you know, for a type seven, for example, who wants to take a step into looking at a world where there's like liberation or you know, anti-racism, I think to be able to look and see, okay, sevens have a very strong flight response when things aren't herky and pretty. So that's going to show up. But what also might show up if the seven is doing their work is vision, is having a vision for the future, is being able to say, Hey, uh I had this idea. Can we try it out? And both of those things happening are the are the way that we move forward. You know, because otherwise it's kind of like, okay, you know, it can it's easy to stay in like the things that we are are shamed for, right? Like of our type. But also like our type brings such gifts to us. And if we're only looking at like we have to be able to look and see, okay, so it's gonna be really easy as uh a white female seven to bypass the shit out of some stuff for sure, it's gonna be easy for that to happen because you know, privilege gives blinders, um, and you know, sevens turn away from things. Um, and so doing the work of being able to say, okay, how how has my how has my type actually helped me stay in my privilege, helped me bypass? And what is there to let go of of that? You know, what is the what is the fear of me? What am I afraid of being stuck in if I look at this? And so that's just the type seven, of course, journey, but every type looking at what are my tendencies? You know, type twos have to look into their tendency to just want to fix everything, to go in and be the helper, which actually is a way of again, which they do naturally, giving space between their own experience of themselves and the world. You know, they do that by focusing on ever what everyone else needs. And that we actually need whole people who are fully aware of themselves to be able to step into on on the really onto the path of liberation and create freedom for the future. And so that pattern that twos have of like, I'm gonna ignore myself and like help everyone else, that often happens also in anti-racism. But the two needs to actually be able to slow down and look at themselves and look and say, like, what are the things that I want? What are what does liberation look like for me? Not just for everyone else. And so that journey of looking and seeing, like, where do we run away from? You know, AIDS might because of this sense of justice or injustice, might it might feel like eights are always moving in, but eights are avoiding their heart. We can't go into liberation with with wit without that connection to the heart. That connection to the heart is that's where the love lives. And there might be like real care or even you know anger against the injustice, but without that connection to the heart, it's gonna be really hard to move forward. So Aights then get to also say, like, where am I avoiding that? And how is that stopping me from actually being able to be really engaged in an anti-racist process?

SPEAKER_00 42:28

I know that you have the with the work that you do, you kind of have this three-pronged approach, Enneagram, anti-racism, and then embodiment. Um, and maybe this is the seven in me coming out, and the but I I I hear this like embodiment, and I'm like, yeah, like embodiment. Okay, yeah, that, yep. Um, but like what does that actually mean? Like, what are we doing when we when we hear embodiment?

SPEAKER_02 42:56

I think of embodiment in a multifaceted kind of way. One part of our embodiment is actually like what what's what's my body doing? Like I the color of my skin, the color of my eyes, the texture of my hair, how that's perceived. Do I really understand that? Do I, you know, if I have a chronic illness, how is that impacting things? So, like looking at and being actually being with our body, that's one aspect of what embodiment is. Because, you know, in a space with even if there's like a very mixed group of people, someone who has a white body is always gonna um be held as the the leader or the the authority just because of our centuries of conditioning, centuries of socialization into that, even if none of us agree with that, even if we are doing a shared governance model, if that is not being thought of intentionally. A lot's going to be missing. Another aspect of our embodiment is our nervous system. I like to think of the nervous system as an entity or a being that we get to be related to because our nervous system is always trying to make sure that we avoid things that are going to harm us and that we are that we find safety. But our nervous system doesn't have time context and it doesn't have situational context. So as adults, as fully grown people, we get to say, oh, nervous system, you're reacting because you're conflating being uncomfortable with being unsafe. You actually are safe. And so it's then being able to have that and being able to go and say, oh, okay, well, let me regulate my nervous system. Because my nervous system thinks that something is not safe. And my nervous system is wrong. My nervous system is misinterpreting what's happening right now because of conditioning and because of socialization. And so it's okay. There's nothing wrong with you or with your nervous system if that's true. We as adults get to provide context. So a lot of, you know, and then another aspect of embodiment is embodiment practices, you know, movement practices, practices to come back to ourselves, like breathing or dancing, or, you know, it's really like all of those things kind of together that allow us to have that kind of relationship with our bodies so that we can actually like be present and do the work.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

I have one more question for you before we jump into rapid fire, but just with everything that you're saying, and the reason why I reached out to you is because I'm constantly learning things from just your Instagram posts. Like you put in these like in-depth, like so thoughtful and thought-provoking posts. And um, I know that you have a couple different programs to help different kinds of people wherever they are in their their Enneagram journey or what they're wanting help with. Um, what what should we know about those? Anything that you're focused on right now, like if somebody's listening to this and it's like, oh my gosh, I need this help. Where do we go? Like, what do you have going on?

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Uh I would say the best place always to come is to my social media, my Instagram, because I'm there the most, and they're the most up-to-date stuff is going to be there. Um, so one thing that I love that's been an ongoing community is called Life on Vulnerability. So this is for people who just really want to do their work. It's not, you know, it's not necessarily we get coaches, but it's not like a coaching program. It's just there's three lessons a month a month, there's three coaching calls a month, and we do the work together. Um, part of that, um, the the usually the third call of the month, we have a group gathering, community gathering called the practice of love and liberation. And that is um, it's usually the third call for my love community, but we invite other people. It's pay what you want, and they can come and they can join, and we'll do activities together. And I just started that in 2023, and it has been so beautiful. I have absolutely loved it because people can drop in when they can. Um, but you know, we just we do the work together. Like we really, really do the work together. Um, I'm also working on um a few things like business audits and you people can work with me one-on-one. So really just send me a DM. Like, come and say hi. One of the most important things for me about my social media is the that we come together in community, as community. And so come into my DMs, introduce yourself, um, you know, comment on stuff. I just that kind of communication and you know, one thought builds and then another thought builds, and that's how we start to really get more deep into the work. Um, so I'm not, yeah, that's just that's just my priority on my social media. So feel free to please come and say hello.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Okay, and we'll link it, but just if anybody wants to Google it right now, it's Jessica Dixon Coaching on Instagram. Yeah, oh Jessica, okay, Jessica D. Dixon. I'm sorry, I see that now. Two Ds. And then what is your website?

SPEAKER_02 48:42

It's not really updated yet, but it's Jessica Ddixon.com as well.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Okay, making it easy. Okay. And then the last question that I wanted to ask you um is there are a lot of people that listen to this are in the workplace managers or have teammates and are and are looking to use the Enneagram to get for professional development, personal growth, but also to better understand each other. Um, what is something that you would recommend? Like what should we know? What should we question if we're looking to bring the Enneagram into our teams or just to use it in our own leadership?

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Um, one of the things that I think is really, really important is to, on a structural level, to have a real commitment to doing the work, not just learning about it. Because when you actually really understand what the types are, and you have, say, a boss who has really bad habits, and instead of them working on their habits, they double down and say, This is just my Enneagram type, that's really painful. And so the commitment really needs to be there to do the work, not just to talk about it, but to be about it. Um, and I see it all the time in organizations where I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry that this is happening. Um and they're like, my boss knows that they're a seven and that they don't follow through on commitments sometimes, but they're not doing anything to work on that. And that doesn't necessarily mean like changing, trying to change their personality. It means like, okay, if I know that I have this habit, what can I build into the process? What guardrails can I build in to make sure that my employees aren't feeling like I'm leaving them behind? Um, so I think that's when I think of what you know, what to do in the workplace, if someone is interested in Enneagram work, it's to be committed to the work, not just to learning about it, not just a one-time, you know, seminar for two hours, but like to really, really be committed to it. Because it's almost like once you know, it's hard to unknow. So once I know that my, you know, my boss has these proclivities toward this love, this kind of unhealthy behavior because of their focus of attention and their motivations, it's hard for me to not be able to be like, what are you doing? Why, why are you? If you know that this is your bad habit, why aren't you doing something about it? So it can really leave people feeling like they're being gaslighted. And to me, that's one of the worst things. And it creates a lot of like, it's not real. And it's like, no, but it is, and it's so beautiful and so helpful. But when people misuse it like that, so we want to do what we can. People are gonna do whatever they want with the Enneagram, but we want to do what we can to make sure that it's something that's actually really supportive.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Yeah, and I'm glad that you said that, Jessica, because I think um just kind of talking about understanding our impact on others, because there's a lot to be said about just the impact we have on ourselves and and and that, but there's also, like you said, understanding what that has on other people, what impact you have on other people, whether the intention is there or not. But that has been one of the most eye-opening parts for me is to understand like the chaos that I can sometimes create um with the with all the ideas and like the excitement. But then it's like, wait, what are we doing? Um, and so when we each kind of understand not just ourselves, but the impact that we have on others. So I'm glad you brought that up. Um I know in one of your videos, I told you I was stalking you earlier. Um, you were talking. I was, I was like, what program should I sign up? What do I need to sign up for? What articles should I read? What podcast should I listen to? Um, which you have your own podcast, correct? Oh, yes. Okay, it's the anti-racist Enneagram podcast. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

So go ahead and binge it, friends.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

Yes. It is, I can attest to that. Um, you had mentioned something about like being a sunset lover. And as we move into the rapid fire, um, I want to start that with that. What has been a favorite sunset memory? Where were you?

SPEAKER_02 53:18

So I live in San Diego, and lately, I mean, I I live in an apartment that kind of overlooks the water. So I watch the sunset mostly from my apartment at the moment. But before then, I used to love going down to a place called Wind and Sea. And it's just like a little neighborhood in La Jolla. And there there was uh, there was just a beautiful day where people were walking, they were walking their dogs, they were just enjoying the kind of the moistness of the air. You could smell the salt water, and the sun was setting, and it was this beautiful, like red sky, and people would drive up, and everyone just kind of paused. And there was this collective pause, everyone stopped walking and just watched for two or three minutes as the sun went down, and it just reminded me of the beauty of being together, you know, to watch this beautiful um activity happen that happens every day. The sun goes down every day, but you know, that we were all together in that moment, taking in the beauty of the sky, the beauty of the sun, and pausing, you know, it just looks so lovely. Yeah, it stays in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

I love that. What's a book that you would recommend? It can be on the Enneagram work, personal development. Any any recommendation that's coming? I know this is hard for some people to just pick one.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Wow. I know now I'm reading um adult children of emotionally immature parents. Okay, okay. So I I listened to it and now I'm taking notes by hand on it. So it's that healing developmental trauma, the Enneagram for Black Liberation. There's yeah, there's those are a few. Those are a few. The Wills of Change by Bell Hooks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

All right, just a few. Not not that any of us listening to this need more book recommendations, but but we love them, but we love them. Um, and then this season I'm I'm talking to more um other Enneagram practitioners and kind of specialties in their area or specialists in their areas. What is something that you wish more people knew about the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_02 55:46

Yeah. I wish that people just knew that it's not just about behavior, that our behavior points us to what we have to be accountable for, but the work is not being able to pinpoint our behavior as much as it is being able to transform what's happening within us so that we choose different behavior in the future.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

And then is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would want to share to make this particular interview episode complete?

SPEAKER_02 56:17

There's nothing I can think of. I just I'm grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

So thank you for having me. Well, I am I am grateful for you agreeing to do this. I appreciate it. Um, you know, I I I love anytime we can kind of get a new perspective, another way to look at not just the Enneagram, but you know, ourselves and life in general. So um please reach out to Jessica, let her know what you're taking away from this episode. We'll have all your links below, get in touch, binge the podcast, and uh it sounds like we'll we'll see you around Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Thanks, Jessica. And before we sign off on this one, I want to let you know about something really cool. Um, depending on when you're listening to this, the timing of when this is published versus when you hear about it. Um, Jessica recently joined the faculty of the Enneagram University. And this is the certification program that I went through to get my Enneagram coaching certification. And I can't say enough good things about the program in general, but one of the requirements was to go through an eight-week group coaching program as the student, as the person being coached. So you kind of understood what it was like in that seat. And Jessica is going to be leading some future groups. So if you happen to be interested in getting your Enneagram certification and would love to be coached through some of that process by Jessica, I'm gonna invite you to check out the link in the show notes. It is an affiliate link. So um there are some additional goodies and bonuses that go along if you decide to sign up and use that link. Um, but I'm gonna invite you to check it out if you have at all been thinking about getting your own Enneagram uh coaching certification and uh potentially getting to work with Jessica. When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.