SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever found yourself at a loss for how to handle a difficult conversation? Maybe it's a conversation that you keep having over and over, or maybe it's a conversation that needs to happen. You just haven't been sure how to approach it. Well, today we are speaking with Jill Schroyer. She is the CEO and lead consultant of Expedition HR and the author of the best-selling book, Conquer Sticky Situations. Jill is bringing her 20 years of HR experience to this conversation today, as well as her type 1 strengths. In this episode, you're going to learn how to channel some of your own inner type 1 with her five-step formula for how to have a difficult conversation about almost any topic and some tweaks that might need to be made based on the other person's personality. Jill's approach is both effective and compassionate. So, regardless of what Enneagram type you identify with or have on your team, you're going to leave today with some very tangible scripts for how to have these important conversations. So when you are ready, I will see you inside. Before we get into it though, I'm just curious what about the type one made you feel like this is probably my type?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yes. Such a good question. First of all, it was really fun, kind of digging into my type. I thought it was a pretty much like dead ringer with the couple things that stood out was like a logical thinker, um striving to do what's right. At first, I kind of thought, what does that mean? And it really bugs me when other people don't do the right thing. So I thought, well, that's exactly what it is. So I guess I want to do the right thing. Um like self-discipline into the details, responsibility, and desire for things to be perfect. Um, I don't like when I can't control my environment, like in a chaotic, I have two kids, so my life is chaotic and they're in way too many sports right now. And I I I don't like it. It's it unsettles me, it makes me upset. So those are probably some of the big things. Um trying to think what the other ones that stood out really hard on myself too. And that really that that was pretty much all the things like striving to do what's right, but don't even like when I make mistakes. Um, yeah, it's exhausting.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Well, and I will say, and if you don't want me to leave this in here, we can cut it out. But I was like, oh, I'm getting some type one energy because we were going back and forth about you know, some questions, just kind of planning. And then Jill emailed me a question order. And I was like, I love it. This is type one.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Well, the other day, and I'm totally okay if you leave this in with our boxers. I laughed because I'm like, whoa, there it is. I even see it myself. But today I didn't even notice that. That's so funny that yes, there's me. Like, no, it has to be in this order. Because if it's not, it's out of control.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Like, yeah, but it's just it's but sometimes it's funny to know about yourself, and then also it's helpful to know about other people because it's like, oh, okay, this is just like this, yeah, this is something she's really good at. And so this makes sense. Um, speaking of really good at, what I what I thought was really interesting was how just just it's so well, this type one energy of kind of compliance and doing the right thing and being ethical and looking out for the common good really aligns with the work that you do. And I I just to kind of give us a little idea of what that is, would and I know I'm kind of jumping ahead, but would you just explain what you do at Expedition HR? And then I want to talk about how you see some of the strengths of the one playing into the work that you help others with.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Perfect, sure. So um I always like to keep things simple. So the way I describe what I do is um I help companies learn foundational HR, kind of learning what they um they don't know what they don't know about HR. So I teach them the foundational pieces that they need to know. And I do this through an HR subscription where they just get the support and resources and guidance they need on a three-month to three-month basis.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

So so, so perfect. Okay. And then I sometimes this is hard for people to notice the strengths and then to say them out loud to kind of almost compliment ourselves. But I'm curious, um, what is a strength of that type one energy that you notice in yourself that has allowed you to be successful?

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah, um, that was really fun. That's a fun question to ask too. Um, well, two pieces I've learned a lot about as being a business owner, how to sell what I might sell my products. And so I think that has been really helpful because I'm very methodical and very clear and very logical. And so it's it's a very easy sell because I I'm very organized and I lay it out very simply and logically. So that side of it, which is um such a big part of a business, and then in the HR work, definitely like logical thinking and tough conversations and situations. I always say, okay, so here's next steps. One, two, three. And everyone says, I just love that. Like prospects like it in the sales process because they know what's coming, because I like to tell them what's coming. And then in the HR situations with tough conversations and situations, I always say, okay, here's what's next. We're gonna have this conversation with this person, or they're gonna go off and do it, and then we regroup and this is what it looks like, and all the dates. And so I think that, and I've been told, you know, I've had a recent prospect, and it was the biggest compliment. He said, Um, before he decided what we were gonna do for work, he said, just to be clear, he said, we're working together, we're just trying to figure out because I offer a few other products besides the subscription, and he said, the level of organization and communication and polish, we're working with you. We just don't know in what capacity. And so I think that's a pretty big signal to the one.

unknown 7:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Oh, polished is a really great descriptor word of that energy. I love that. Well, and you know what's interesting is um hopefully validating for other ones that might be listening to this. I think sometimes like we'll talk about how the Enneagram can be um can help give you insight about your sales style. And I think there's certain types, like the seven, for example, I'll pick on myself. We we are known for being very enthusiastic and very excited. And I think that's kind of that stereotypical sales energy, but that's just part of it. And it's the follow-through and it's the follow-up, and it's the organization of all your leads and and um you know, reaching out to people and what you're talking about. So I think that is definitely one. And then um like what you were saying, the ability to help your clients, customers kind of stay organized with all that there is um when it comes to to people and their business, um, is I could absolutely see that like precision. And I will say, I was just talking to somebody um earlier today about how in conflict or in challenging situations, uh, there tends to be types that are very optimistic and will say, Oh, well, let's look on the bright side. And then there'll be types that need to just really vent um and get it out, whether it's anger or worry or whatever. But ones and threes and fives too um tend to be pretty rational and they're thinking this is a problem, but we're sensible mature adults. We just need to get to work and we can figure it out. So it sounds like you're bringing that energy to some of these really emotional situations.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yes, yes, you pegged it.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

What is a challenge that maybe you've you've read about or or learned about with the type one energy that you have noticed shows up in your life in some way?

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah, I think the inner critic is probably the biggest one. Like I'll make a decision and then think, you know, kind of back to the perfection thing is was that the best decision? You know, was that the right decision? And I kind of tend to overthink and criticize myself. I've worked on that a lot though, so I've gotten better. But something I read in one of the descriptions, it said, like I tend to ones tend to look how not how far they've gotten, but or it's or what is how to phrase it, tend to look at how far I have to go instead of how far I have come. And I get stuck in that a lot. Like, yeah, but I want to be here with either the business or this. And so I'm getting a lot better about intentionally looking back and you know, kind of celebrating. I think that's I'm not so good at that.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some, some, some of us better than others, but yeah, I think that's a good reminder for all of us. Um, one of the questions that I'll ask in the workshops that I do for an icebreaker is when it comes to handling conflict, do you tend to avoid it like the plague or are you comfortable addressing it head on? And so it's just kind of a fun question, but I know, you know, in all areas of our life, especially at work, there are uncomfortable conversations, whether it's feedback or um a problem with uh getting it from a customer, um, all kinds of different ways. And it can be hard to get, but it can also be hard to give. And I know that you have a framework to help people do that. Would you talk to us a little bit about what that framework is?

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Sure. So I'm gonna keep this really simple because it could be an hour describing this, so I won't do that today. Basically, um, it's a really simple five-step formula that you can kind of package your conversation into. And then what I have, I call it the three-prong approach to the formula. So I'll kind of break that down. So the five steps, the first and fifth are say thanks. So it's basically just when you're starting, hey, thanks for taking a minute to chat with me, or thanks for sitting down with me. I know this is a tough conversation to have. I appreciate you carving out time. I know you're busy. Thanks for chatting with me. So that's step one. And then we're gonna talk about how you end the conversation the same way. But step two is why. So these conversations, usually you know it's something that someone has to address. So I say, get it right out there. Why are you there? One sentence, you know, let's just say we're at work, we're here to talk about you missing deadlines, Sally. That's why we're here, and that's it. That's step two. And then the what is step three. And I say give one to three supporting reasons to support the why. Don't give 10, don't give 15, give one to three, depending on how big they are, and have them pre-planned, have them with all the specifics, dates, all the situation. So to the deadline example, like you missed a deadline on January 5th, January 20th, and now it's February 3rd, and we're ready to miss another deadline. So it's just facts, it's what happened, and that's that's the what. And then step four is the how. So you never want to, you've had, you know, you've said the things that are hard to say. You want to tell them how you want things to move forward. And so um, the how is I expect that if you come close to missing a deadline, you will let me know a week ahead of time and we can talk about any barriers that might be presenting or issues with meeting the deadline. And this is crucial to customer satisfaction. We cannot miss deadlines. Do you have any questions about deadlines moving forward? And so you always want to ask, you know, do they have questions in the how? And then the step five is thanks again. You know, you have a little bit of dialogue and you say, you know, Sally, thanks again for having this conversation. It might not have been easy to hear. Thanks again for sitting down. And so that's the five-step formula. And I'll I'll pause there for a minute.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Well, I'm curious. I mean, I I can um I can imagine, but I'm just curious if there's anything else that we should know about the reasoning behind saying thank you, because I I I love that. Um, what what have you found that tends to do?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Great question. Yeah, I get asked that a lot. It kind of softens the air, so to speak. If you thank someone, like if you think just starting off and say, oh, thank you, it makes you feel good no matter where you are. If someone just thanks you for holding the door, it's just a it's like a sign of appreciation. And so I think it just softens everything. So if you're ready to sit down and they're anxious and you sit down, and the first thing you say is, thanks for taking a minute. Even if you're the manager, let's say, and you're really upset and you tell your employee thanks, it might be hard to say, but it will kind of soften the air.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, I th I really like that. Um, and then you had mentioned something about three, a three-prong approach. What is that? Can you say more about that?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah. So I talk about this in my book. It's called Conquer Sticky Situations. And really the first chapter is about the five steps, and then everything, the whole rest of the book is on the three prongs. So, you know, because the way it came about is there needs to be like a, well, type one speaking here, there needs to be a framework. There needs to be a logical order that you say these things in. But it it's not complete without these um kind of three prongs, as I call them. So the three prongs are simple, straightforward, and human-centered. So simple in a nutshell is just keep it simple. Don't be too wordy. Like there's a marketing phrase you confuse, you lose. So, in the same thing here, say too much, and they're not gonna know why you're there. For example, in the why, if you say, Sally, we're here to talk about, well, you know, you're doing really well, but we're here to talk about deadlines. But I mean, you're you're doing all that project, it was really good. But today we're here to talk about some deadlines, but I mean you're doing a really good job. That's gonna just confuse them. So that's not being simple. The second one is straightforward. I described as three things direct, professional, and kind. And it is not being brutally honest, it's just not effective. And so you want to be direct, you've got to say what you need to say, and don't dance around it. You need to be professional. Don't berate them, don't call them names, don't make them feel less and keep it focused on the work or the issue, not them. And then being kind. It's it's you have to say what the issue is, but again, you don't have to be mean about it. And then the third one is human-centered, just basically remembering that there's a human being sitting with you having this conversation. So I sometimes, when I do um my tough conversations training, I talk about if it's just two of you, consider sitting on the same side of the table as them. Oh, I think that instead of across from them. Just, you know, just kind of sit with them, have a conversation with them. You know, we're both in the Sales Maven society and they talk, Nikki talks about having a conversation with someone, not at them. And I use that phrase a lot in my trainings. We don't want to talk at them, we want to have a conversation with them. We want to think of ideas how we can move things forward. And so another way to be human-centered is, you know, saying thanks. So that folds into the um steps one and five, but also um, you know, just applying empathy sometimes. You don't have to like a person to apply empathy. You can just think, wow, that would be really rough to be in the spot they're in. You know, I'm frustrated with them, I don't like them. And I see that it could be really hard being where they are and just taking a second to realize that. And if you fold all that in, this isn't going to be like a confrontational conversation, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

So I think this is one of those situations where it's like, even if you don't um, even if this doesn't come natural for you, like sometimes what I'll say in situations where I need to do something that doesn't come natural, it's like, oh, I need to I need to channel that energy or that, or sometimes, you know, being in with the Enneagram, it's like, oh, I need to channel some of that type one energy. And so this is a great reminder because um I there's um some of us who I know tend to want to make people feel really comfortable and just very positive. And when you were talking about, oh, you've done all these great things, um, and then it you're right, it does kind of get lost. And then there's also some of us, like I mentioned, that just really can be um emotionally, it just can, you know, there's a lot of emotions and expressive. And there's a time and a place for that. But again, it's kind of like it detracts, it sounds like from this conversation. So I love like, let's bring our logical, mature selves to this conversation. And to have that that roadmap is is really helpful. Um what have you seen that keep people from having these sort of tough conversations?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, well, I think two key things, Sarah, is they are afraid of what's gonna happen. Like, okay, great, Jill, you give me this formula and the prong three-prong approach. What if it doesn't go right? Um, so there's a lot of fear about outcomes. I also address a lot of, I call them what ifs. Um, I write about this in the book and I talk about it in trainings because this is all fine and good. And if it goes sideways, because it's going, it's not going to go perfect every time, but if you plan for those, there's a good likelihood that you will be ready when those what-ifs happen. So anyway, back to your question. They're they're worried about the outcome. So I say, well, let's plan for the worst. Like, let's think of all the things that can happen. Um, the other thing, um, thing too here is is thinking of it as a confrontation and not a conversation, that a tough conversation is a confrontation. It's like, no, it's it's a conversation. It doesn't, it's hard, but it doesn't have to be like a mean, angry situation.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

So, so true. So true. And I think um maybe even being on the receiving end to remember that can can be easier to receive. Um I know that I'm kind of throwing you a sideball here, but I'm I'm curious. Is there anything as the receiver of this feedback that we should keep in mind?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah, great question. Um, as far as when you get something kind of said to you that's kind of hard to hear and like how do you receive it?

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah. I talk about like adding things to your toolkit on either side, whether you're kind of instigating the tough conversation, like have some things in your toolkit, like just to step back a little bit on like the simple um prong is prepare, do it in front of a mirror, be ready. But great question about what happens on the receiving side. You know, what can you be ready with? And so some of the tools I teach to put in your toolkit are just phrases that you can pull out basically and think of in your brain and just use them. So really, this is like a catch-all. You can just say, thanks for that feedback. You might cringe when you think, thank you. Like, what if someone says something hard? You'll make yourself feel better. It's like almost like a calming mechanism and it gives you a second to think, and you're not going to be like, that is stupid, that is wrong. You're gonna just say, Oh, thanks, because it's feedback. We can all grow from feedback. Yeah. I say, Oh, and any every every like feedback, feedback's a gift, and there's always like truth in it. There always is, whether you think there is or not, if you just stop and say thanks, because it really is a gift. It is so I don't know if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

It is, and it's hard in the moment because I'm like, even in like my relationship, like whenever like something gets brought up, I'm like, I'm not doing that. You're crazy. Like, this what's wrong with something's wrong with you. Why would you ever think a you problem? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah. And that's why, like, thanks for the feedback, or oh, thanks for sharing that. Because you're not like saying they're right, you're not saying you're wrong, or you can say, Oh, you know, you can just kind of do that. Oh, I I can see how you'd feel that way. I'd love to chat about that more, or thanks for sharing that. I'm not sure I agree. I'd love to talk about that more.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

I just thought of something as you were talking. about that and um something that I have we've started talking about with our Enneagram types is like saying um that makes sense rather than blaming yourself or like shaming yourself and I was just thinking like I I know that I'm not everything is tied to the Enneagram but um I see the world this way so I'll just bring this up and see if there's anything else you want to say about it. But I have found that like knowing about myself whether it is through the Enneagram or the Colby or whatever um typically when I get feedback and I have a moment to process like you're saying it it makes sense. And so you know it makes sense that you would be giving me this feedback or that I would be receiving this feedback even if I don't say it out loud um knowing myself and what I struggle with be the more self-aware I am I think the I don't even want to say it's easy but maybe the the quicker I can get over the sting. And that could be another benefit of of learning more about yourself because the feedback that you get might be like very com like it's very common for sevens to get this feedback. It just makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Totally yes I love that what something about ones is like you're very critical of others. Yeah. I don't always say it like of course I don't say it to people that I'm not close to but like my husband's probably like you are so critical. I am I have a lot of things that and I realize it and he says it and sometimes I'm like yeah well I'm trying to make you better you know I'm trying to make the family better and it's if I stop and realize like you are critical Jill you and I'm not mean like I I try not to nitpick but I I I do like you don't make the bed right you don't if you just made it right it would look better and who wouldn't want a bed to look better who wouldn't want a made bed in the morning I always ask people you know do you like to make your bed? Because that is the best way to start the day and I think that's the only way to start a day and people have said I completely disagree and I'm like oh how can you not make your bed yes oh my God I'm I'm laughing so hard over here. This is very enlightening for me. I guess I love talking about the Enneagram because I'm learning in this conversation in my reading it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah oh that's so good. Well and and for both of us and I don't think this is what you're saying but I I have to remember too it's not like a hall pass to be like well this is just how I am accept it you know yes it's like oh this yep this is something that I'm continuing to work on. So there I go again.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yep there I go again okay thank you for my attention yep yep exactly so I I know that you know uh it's it's probably more um easier to to see but in your experience what are some of the benefits of you know going through this process to practice to to have the uncomfortable conversation what ends up being a a benefit from it yeah well you know I I like to call it getting to the other side you know I usually ask you know okay what what do you feel like when you have to have a tough conversation a lot of people say oh I feel anxious I'm not sleeping at night I feel stressed I mean all these awful things are you know thrown out there that people feel and so I say what if you could just not feel those things again like there's that's the why you know that's it's hard. Anything worth doing is hard. So that's really the why I always say like who doesn't want to not feel stressed and not feel anxious like I'd like to not you know have nights where you have a little bit of sleeplessness and things. So and also you hopefully can promote change like with uh an employee there you know you've had the hard conversation and now they know I mean you're you're actually giving them like a benefit in knowing what they're maybe doing wrong or needing to improve upon. So really it's good for everyone. It's off your chest and the other person is hopefully learning something that they need to do better or stop doing or whatever the case.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah yeah um and like you said like feedback feedback is a gift and sometimes it's hard to see inside our own jar or whatever that say is and so even when it's cringy it's like okay this is a perspective I'm not able to see um so that that is helpful. What okay so there are some types and and I think um for any eights that are listening this they're probably like what's the problem here? Just you know give it to them straight just show them what she what you need. And there's other types that yeah do tend to avoid it like the plug either because they're afraid of being um emotionally overwhelmed by the other person's response because they don't want to hurt somebody's feelings because they tend to only want to look on the bright side. So there's all different types of reasons why somebody might avoid this type of conversation but what are the costs of that? Like what happens when when we avoid them?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah well in the the small, small percentage the problem just goes away. So I always say no one to hold them, no one to fold them. Sometimes it's not worth it most times it is because it's an employee with a performance problem I see this all day long with clients is oh they're not getting better or they're not doing this. It's not likely going to get better on its own if you don't address it. And then yeah in a personal situation like say in a family or a friend I always the example of someone borrowing money and they're just like oh can I have $10 can I have $10. I mean they're gonna keep doing it and it's gonna keep stress I go back to stress and anxiety and like it's gonna eat you up if you don't have the conversation likely you know that expression like the if you have harboring anger it will consume you it's not gonna hurt the other person. It's gonna consume you so it's usually most cases better to have the conversation prepare practice and have it.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

You know what's almost laughable sometimes is when you are feeling all of those things and it just does consume you and then you have the conversation and then the person is like oh okay yeah you're right okay so it's like it doesn't always you it might turn out better than you think rather than you know worse than you think. So there's always that possibility I guess.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Yeah and I always offer the tools of you know part of the what ifs is let's just say they freak out on you. They just what? They don't even let you finish and you're thinking I'm doing the formula I'm applying the three prongs. Yeah I don't want to just say that well that's on them deal with it because it's not that easy. It's also a time to potentially just say I know this is a lot that I'm sharing with you. Let's revisit tomorrow at noon. Let's I I get that this is a lot this might be hard to hear you know like I've helped clients address body uh odor issues and some it's a very sensitive thing with an employee to tell them you know that people have been reporting that you have body odor and sometimes they cry sometimes they're defensive and sometimes it's just like let them digest and then revisit wow yes that would be a very difficult conversation but I I I love that and I think that goes back to that like human center like centered approach. Exactly yes or they might say you know you another way of human centered is going in and saying hey is everything okay before you dive in because they might say no like say they were pregnant and something happened or they got were getting divorced or they were diagnosed with an illness what if they share that that's a what if and don't keep going just say gosh I we need to have this conversation it's important not right now what you're dealing with is more important. I'd like to give you some time and then get to the conversation later but not right then. Pause it. So I call it just the powerful pause.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Oh I really like that I really like that um what about for those of us who worry about offending somebody so you know the getting wrapped up in all the things and not keeping it simple um it's like oh you're great at this or um not being direct I mean what what can you help us out with for those of us who worry about that?

SPEAKER_00 30:39

Yes that's such a common question um more often than not that's the typical way um people think of you know what if this person gets offended really centering yourself before to think this is I'm not going into this as a confrontation. You know I'm a big fan of affirmations even just saying everything's going to go fine I'm going to say these things in a kind and direct manner and really in the end if you relay it, if you package it up, don't say too much, get the message across in a simple, straightforward and human-centered way and they're still feeling hurt. Again, I hate to say well that's on them. If you do this in such a way that it is all these things sometimes it really just is on them and they might need a chance like say the money borrower they might just be upset because their punching bag is telling them to stop you know asking me for money. And so they might be hurt thinking you're not a friend. Who is that a reflection on though really it's a reflection on them. So I I say yes we can't put yeah I heard an expression once and I love it. It says other people's disappointments isn't a reflection on us or isn't our responsibility. That's it other people's disappointments are not our responsibility. So it's kind of the same thing you know I always say if you offend or hurt them you might have said something that was not professional direct and kind it might have borderlined brutally honest and maybe just remember the next time watch the way things are relayed. But even if it you know the reality as you're probably thinking too Sarah is you might say it in all these, you know, the formula with the three-prong approach and the person does get super offended because they're very sensitive. They might not know what type that is but they might be super sensitive. And you know just using expressions like thanks so much. I know this was hard to hear and I am I'm I always say don't say sorry because you're not sorry. You've got to have the conversation but I know this might have been hard to hear and thanks for being here. I know you might need a minute thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest thanks for being willing yeah I like I really like all of that and I I I know that we're talking about like a work context but like you were saying the the money borrower potentially or just in your relationships and with the boundaries and it's like yeah why and I'm guilty of this too just like stewing in anger or annoyance and allowing it to continue happening because I don't want to say anything. And so um like just what a gift for any type of relationship to be able to have these kind of things and and move through them, navigate through them. I'm curious there's a lot of uh teams right now that are working remotely and then there's a lot of people that are coming back to the office. Does this recipe change if it's a face-to-face conversation versus if it's something that needs to be said in writing over email or the Slack channel or I don't know like does there is there anything that we should know about those different situations?

SPEAKER_00 33:59

That's a terrific question. So no because I operate really simply honestly the same formula could be put right in an email and again that's the way to keep it simple however you're gonna relay it whether you're saying it over the phone in a Zoom meeting or in an email it's really if you stick to the five steps it's all the same.

unknown 34:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Essentially and I always say I get asked sometimes should I have this in person? Should I have it over the phone? And I always say it doesn't really matter where is where is the conversation going to be most effective if you have someone that's very awkward in person or you're awkward in person or you know knowing your type like are you better in Zoom? Are you better in person? Um because sometimes on Zoom you could have a little script beside you that they won't see that you can look in the camera and have your script right in front and no one would know. So I say like where are you going to be most effective or how are you going to be most effective? And you know an email it can just be taken the wrong way. So you know ideally verbalizing it either on the phone or in a Zoom conversation I think is best. But of course you know getting into the HR stuff I love following with an email though and you just say the exact same thing you know in the email hey thanks for taking some time to talk with me and read this and then going into it. Another kind of insertion here with the human-centered is um I teach to the human-centered approach some people are just more direct and they just want to like get to business you know you see emails and if you see an email from me very likely I'm gonna say hello and then ask a question. And I know salesmaven talks about this a lot too because that's a way to just open things up and again have a conversation and so sometimes you can even insert that you know how was your weekend you know thanks for sitting down having this conversation and just lighten things up a little bit not being soft um but I say practice being human centered in your everyday life like when you write emails try not to just be like where is this like hi Jane how is your day going you know um you know I'd like to ask you some questions about this project. Is it on track? If not I'd like an update thanks so much. Yeah that makes that type of thing like a subject line like type of emotion where is it sometimes to prevent and I people challenge it and they say yeah but it takes time and I say next time you write an email ask a nice question at the beginning and time yourself. It's like a 0.5 seconds it takes to say how are you?

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah it's not like that much more of it. Um again like if you don't if you don't have anything that's okay but I'm just curious because you do work with so many different types of companies is there or are there specific like themes or maybe exact types of difficult topics that people are having these conversations around like you know firing or whatever that might be is is are you seeing any trends there?

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Yes very much so performance problems okay this has quote unquote this has been going on forever we need to address it that's usually why I get called or we've got to let someone go it's long overdue or we just have someone we need to let go. And those are almost the they're definitely the most common two triggers why someone reaches out and then we end up working together because these things just tend to come up yeah okay okay um I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that or I should say people saying inappropriate things at work. That's been a theme I I I track everything I help people with ever. And so I always I have a lot of data and a lot of it it's it's it's kind of entertaining sometimes in my job the things that I'm told that people say um and how to like address it. And I I find it all very interesting just the generations and you know what people think is okay to say um in certain situations. So yeah that's another one which falls into performance.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Okay so performance inappropriate sayings like Jill's your Jill's your person. Yes. Okay I I'm curious just to talk about maybe a one or two like real life applications. And what I was thinking about just as we were talking is maybe I'll transcribe what you share and make it something they can download or I'll just add it in the show notes because I went through a training that you did and you had the slide and it was for those of us who are maybe more visual like that was really helpful than just hearing it as well. But I I'm curious uh how what might you say to somebody who you know I guess performance maybe this could be something but I'm just thinking of kind of like in Enneagram ways that tends to be like really domineering and maybe talks over people or tends to always need to be in charge. And then maybe a leader who isn't as you know straightforward how might they have a conversation like this? Because I could see that being kind of just you know intimidating or something you would want to avoid.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yes. Yeah that's a great scenario maybe we'll call it like uh I call them high performing jerks. They do a really good job and so they keep they're never gonna get fired. Well they should have things corrected with their performance but they're they do so well in their job and they're just a jerk. They just run over people on the way but maybe they make the company a lot of money. So someone like that, yeah. Um so I always start with the thanks for having this conversation or thanks for taking so with someone like that I would kind of maybe like massage an ego a little bit and say I know you are so busy. You have so much going on thank you so much for carving out time for me even though you might be thinking they need to have a conversation like go at it thinking okay so maybe some empathy. They're busy they're stressed so that's the thanks step. Okay. And then you know why you're there I'd love to brainstorm with you some better ideas about um and I'm just kind of off the cuff. So I'd love to sit down and brainstorm with you about some ideas about ways we can work with the team to communicate XYZ better. So you've noticed I put I'd love to talk with you to brainstorm because someone like this if you come out with the why like Joe, you're too abrasive. We need to talk about it. He's just gonna get prickly so hey Joe, I'd love to sit down and brainstorm some ways to have our communication be more effective with the team. And I can't remember the exact scenario you mentioned before. So something like that. And then you could say in the what um I've noticed because it's also great if you the person saying having the conversation can say I've noticed because it's just an observation. It's not like you're a bad person, you're stupid, you're obnoxious. I've noticed I've noticed that Jane doesn't say anything in meetings because I think she thinks that she's not supposed to chime in based on some things I've heard you say such as this, this so it's like you're maybe quoting something you've heard um you could cite another example and you could say you could pause in there too with someone like this and say, what do you think? And so in the how, so we we said the what, we gave an example maybe Jane doesn't feel like she can speak up you know what do you think? Insert maybe a what do you think in there and then in the how so back to kind of why we're sitting down you know what are some what let's brainstorm some ways that we may be able to bring the team into decisions more or bring the team um get the team to speak up more in meetings and voice their opinions. What what are your ideas? I'd love to brainstorm this with you a bit like brainstorming is a very non-confrontational word and I always say you could start in a format like this with this person. It may need to get more direct if he doesn't get the point. So that was the how and then you know again you are so busy you have so much going on I just thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with me. Let's get together again and talk about some ideas that you come up with I really like that.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

Yeah and like again just kind of tailoring it to who you're talking to like the brainstorm and and and yeah coming at it um I that's I love that I love that so much. I'm curious this just popped up too Jill so I am that's great. I so we're talking I know about tough conversations that seem to be kind of one-on-one um one of the real life scenarios I was going to ask you about was when like a big change was coming to like either a change in leadership or bringing everybody back to the office. Can you still use this in in like an announcement kind of way? Does does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 43:28

For sure. It goes back to kind of that simple idea it can translate from work to personal life to relaying in groups to maybe a mass email to everyone because again even if you receive an email and it says you know hey you know everyone how I I always say address them in person like hi how's your day going um thanks for taking a second to read this email. You know I'm reaching out we have some changes coming or the the purpose of this email is to share some upcoming changes that you know are pretty drastic or something like that. So yes, exact same format really can be used. And kind of a side note, when you're communicating change and you're trying to be like transparent and you also have to relay something maybe difficult, like we're going to be changing some people's roles in this change. I mean big things. Obviously we wouldn't be announcing like layoffs in a mass some companies do, but not in this environment. Maybe we're changing roles. If there's likely going to be things in this tough conversation or tough announcement that you can't share. And I always say tell them what you're not telling them.

unknown 44:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Because they're going to wonder. So if they're like, oh well any of us going to get fired and say we're doing some restructuring, yes, we are going to be moving people within jobs. I can't promise that there won't be job eliminations. I can't share that with you today because, you know, whatever the case, we're working with the company we're merging with. This is actually a real life scenario. I had it with a client once they were merging with another company and people were asking them, am I going to get fired? And they said we want to have a company meeting, but we don't want to get an onslaught. What do we do? And I said, tell them what you're not telling them. Tell them we can't share the details. We're in a confidential relationship with this new company. So I can't tell you that. We know some information that will be forthcoming and people aren't going to like it. It's the reality of life. I mean, but I like information and if you're telling me what you can't tell me, then I know what that is. And that gives me a little bit maybe type one. It's like the step one why I like information. Humans like information even if it's not good. It's like if someone's in a car accident you're worried but if you know what happened to them, it will give you a sense of calmness even if they're hurt. Now you know. Now you know what you're dealing with. At least that gives me a type one a sense of order and like I it's not out of my control. And so I think that's the way I operate in tough conversations too is tell them, like get it out there and tell them if you can't tell them something. And if they ask you to for more information say thanks for asking that I can't share that with you right now and I know that may be frustrating to you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

And then repeat yourself. That's another technique of of being simple is repeat it. Don't open a new can of worms just repeat it. I got a little bit off tangent there.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

No, that was perfect. That actually reminds me I I was reading something I think it was Entrepreneur magazine and it said um the most crucial leadership skill that no one talks about but everybody needs to know about and it was uh validation. Oh yes so good. Yeah and that just reminded me um even you just saying like I know this frustrating but I I just can't tell you or whatever whatever the feeling is. So I I love this um this has been like I love this conversation because it's been very specific and I also think very practical. You know if whatever yeah whatever type of conversation that you have been maybe avoiding um you've given us a great framework for how to approach it just a script and then also mindset bringing it what mindset to bring to it.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

So I I appreciate that if if people are like okay Jill I I have problems too I need some help I need some guidance where can we learn more about the work that you do and how you help great thanks for asking so expeditionhr.com is my website and it's the best place to just learn more about how I support clients. I don't take like one-on-one clients like or individuals I should say I mean they could jump into the subscription it's mainly made for businesses that want to um kind of come to me for advice with their employees and their management. But the book Conquer Sticky Situations is on the website and I always say for individuals for like $12.99 on Amazon you'll have your guidebook um so that's a great resource that I always like to share.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

And then would you just maybe help differentiate so we can lump ourselves in one of the categories? Is it like if you have certain amount of employees connect with me this way if less buy the book?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Yeah great great question. So um my my kind of typical best audience is up to businesses with up to 50 employees and um eager to learn HR and better ways to do things, setting up a foundation I always say I'm not in the business of convincing I had someone once call me and say now why do I need this and I thought why are you calling me I'm not here to convince you um the yeah like not knowing what you don't know about HR and wanting to learn that those are my real ideal clients and typically businesses up to 50 employees are the best fit for the HR subscription and other trainings I offer.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

Okay perfect. And then if anybody wants to say Jill I resonate with you with the type one I felt like you were in my head or I loved how you said that and just reach out and and connect with you where's the best platform to say hello and connect in that way great LinkedIn for sure that's my platform of choice just Jill Schroyer. Okay. Um what is is there a book that you would recommend obviously your book so we're going to have that in there is there any other sort of um book that has helped you better understand people, have conversations um in the HR field or just maybe in the personal growth area? And I know sometimes it's hard to pick just one. It could be a recent one. Anything anything that you could uh recommend is not that any of us need any more books on our list but we we like to add to it. So I like to ask I love this question.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

I keep a book a books to read list because I always I never want to run out of good ideas. So you know the one that stands out for me this year or I read it last year in 2022 Sarah was Never Split the Difference and it's about the art of negotiating and it's from like an ex-FBI negotiator and it was amazing. I mean he we talk about a lot of the same things he took one thing I like is like labeling emotions and I mean he has talked people out of you know bank robberies by just saying you know you're annoyed you're frustrated and they like bring out the hostages so this stuff works like it's but it was a really it was like validating to think oh we talk about the same things.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Yeah okay that is a good I've heard of that one but I haven't I haven't read it really good and it's entertaining too okay okay good that does sound like a good one. What about is is there a tool or a resource or a routine that you couldn't live without in your workday?

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Yes definitely um well I don't know if you're looking at like a morning routine type thing. Anything is that okay yeah I would say a morning routine I swear by it and some people say well I'm not a morning person I always say well make it when you get up routine. You're gonna laugh Sarah I put out my clothes the night before okay okay I like to know what I'm gonna wear and it also you know there's science that says if you can eliminate your decisions you just function better. Yeah and then I always drink a lot of water. Okay and I like coffee so I take some really intentional sips and just think about the day and then the thing I do in the morning this is like the secret sauce or however you call it I call it my send it items. I just figure out one thing that I can do and I'm a real early riser like 4 30 or five typically and one thing I can do that I can send it in the morning whether it be an email literally or a project that will make me feel like I've already tackled something for the day. So I've got my clothes set out I've drank my water I've sipped my coffee and thought about what I'm grateful for and then I send that one thing and then I've started the day off with like check the box. I've hydrated I'm dressed I'm ready to conquer the world and make your bed yes well my husband's not an early riser so yeah we're working on that one.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Oh okay and then last kind of rapid fire question um there's a lot of talk about you know just being successful and uh living your best life and I'm curious what is your version of success or what does a successful life look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Such a good question. You know the reality is there's a certain type of success that is related to earnings and income of course to do certain things. But to me success is having like days filled with things that make me happy and I love my work. So that makes me happy low stress um flexibility not just with work but just in general being able to be where I want to be and when um traveling tons and that's where the money comes in you know having the type of a success that I can travel the way I'd like to um and really ultimate success is just feeling peace like being at peace with the world the lack of perfection around me as a type one being feeling at peace despite the fact that the to-do list goes on and on and things will never be like perfect.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

That might that might be some some type one wing wing nine energy right there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Yeah and then is there we've talked about a lot um today and you've you've shared so many good tangible tips is there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask you about that would make this interview feel complete gosh no I think we touched on a lot um I think the biggest well I can add one kind of side note um which I forgot to mention um but which I think you're aware of I've been doing a lot more tough conversations trainings and so if there's an organization or a group that's interested in this it's my favorite thing in the world to do and it's fun and um attendees go with so many nuggets. It's a lot of what we talked about and they get to ask specific questions. So I wanted to mention that that's something that um love doing and um also a part of that the reason why I brought it up is I talk it's it's about the formula and everything, but it also talks about beliefs in our life lives that may be holding us back from being successful in these conversations. And that's kind of a part that it's really fun and engaging and it really encourages people to look within like for myself in a nutshell I just never thought I was an athlete went through a phase of life where I kind of thought I was less than because I wasn't an athlete and decided I'm going to do things to be an athlete. And that's an analogy for a lot of people that in life they were told don't speak up, don't say anything, you're a potster or you're a problem and you just believed it. And so changing our narrative changing our beliefs um that's a big part of it. But I just want to throw that in as kind of a a side note at the end if we look within and say we can do this, it's not even though we may not be good at it or haven't done it before we can be good at it and successful at it and have the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

I'm so glad you said that I usually get some of the the best depth whenever I ask that question at the end. So I always like to make sure I ask it. So thank you and yes we will expeditionhr.com and connect with Jill over at LinkedIn um if this is a topic you are interested in bringing to your team or organization. Jill thank you so much for being here I really appreciate your time um and listeners thank you for being here definitely get connected with Jill and let her know what you're taking away from this one. Thanks Sarah this was so funning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast it is also a team training company which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event and I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.