SPEAKER_01 0:00

We've never been in the same room with these people because they're not in the New York City area. And while we will meet them, you know, right now we're we're relying to some degree on what we can pick up and what we think they might be in terms of these characteristics and how we can best manage them because we don't have that much else to work on other than just working with them day to day. So it's been it's been interesting as we move remote and remote work is kind of a hot topic these days.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

We have those on one end of the spectrum that is saying, everybody, come back to the office. Probably a lot of our team leaders, managers in that game. We have the hybrid model, and then we have the fully remote model. And I've gotten to work with companies uh in each of the categories, and there are advantages and benefits to each. Of course, there are also challenges and obstacles with each one as well. Today we're going to be focused on the fully remote team setup and how to navigate some of the challenges that come up inevitably with a fully remote dynamic. We have communication and collaboration, um, potential challenges to navigate through. How do you build trust with people that you may have never met in person before? Uh, how do you get to know people's working styles, their productivity preferences, what motivates them? And how do you really engage the team as a whole? Get everybody involved. And of course, um, I can't give the Enneagram credit for all of that. These women today that I'm gonna introduce you to are incredible. Um, but you will hear a little bit about how they have applied what they have learned from an Enneagram dream team workshop that we did together almost a year ago today, and how they have been applying that information and awareness to their own leadership style, um, the impact that it has on their team, how the synergies they have with one another with that dynamic, um, better understanding each member of their team, answering some of those questions that I just said could be challenges, um, and even applying it to awareness with some different clients. And so Stacey Royal and Kathy Decker are the principals at the Decker Royal Agency, which is a company that works with other companies in the travel, tourism, and hospitality industries with helping them with PR, marketing, creative communication needs. And their client base spans over 103 countries. And they have 22 members on their team right now. Uh, they have won over 37 awards as a team for their work and have been featured over 1,500 times. And I think this is the most applicable to this conversation. Um, in 2023, they were awarded Inc.'s best workplace, one of Inc.'s best places to work. So really impressive. There's a lot to learn from both of them. So without further ado, let's jump into this week's episode. You're listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. Today is an extra fun one. Um, because, well, one because these two are just extra fun. We have two guests today instead of just one. And one of them happens to be my old college roommate.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

So we're not gonna get stories that I could tell them all, but I could.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

I know we have a lot of stories. This could be a very long podcast episode. It's not. We're gonna keep it, we're gonna keep it very applicable and um professional, but know that there's some stories behind here. So welcome to the show, Stacey Royal and Kathy Decker.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

And thank you so much for being here. They run a PR agency out of New York City, but they have a remote team. So they've had kind of an interesting dynamic of leading a team, but then also with everything, just kind of leading a remote team, and we'll get into that in a little bit. Uh, both Kathy and Stacy have identified, I believe, as an Enneagram type eight. And so my question right out of the gate for Kathy, I'm gonna start with you. Sure. Um is what about the type eight made you think this is me? Because I know in the beginning there was a two and a seven, there were a couple others up there, but the eight kind of made its way to the top. What about that type made you think this is me?

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Um, I think partly because I'm the oldest of five children. And as soon as you started to talk about what a type eight was, people that you could count on, people who make decisions quickly, people who accept responsibility, I was like, ding, ding, ding, that's me. That's me.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Okay, okay. And Stacey, what about you? What about the type 8?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

I am the younger sibling, but with classic older sibling tendencies. Um, so type eight, the idea of always having power and control, fighting injustices, advocating for others, that has always felt like something I've done. Um, and it's why I naturally gravitated towards type eight. And I think also, and I know we'll probably get into like other tendencies of what we see from other enograms too, but I don't think it's a surprise that Kathy and I, as business partners who have worked together for over 15 years, share similarities in our type eight, and and we're very similar along those lines, but our other probably secondary are very different, but we we feel as we've explored it, complement each other.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yes, it does. Okay, so I want to talk about that really quick. Is and this actually was a great question that came up in a workshop that I did a couple of weeks ago because we spent a lot of time understanding other types. And somebody asked, what about understanding the same type, but you're having problems with them? Or what should you know about them? So, with the two of you having a lot of that kind of strong will, direct energy, um what do you see has been your strengths as business partners, as leaders with both of you having that?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

So I think, I mean, just the natural tendency to not sugarcoat things, I think is is a positive. But obviously, as we're looking, and and for the viewers or or the listeners, I guess I should say, um, Sara came in and did this for our entire team. So this wasn't just learning about ourselves, which it was incredibly helpful, but we also got to understand what some of our employees are. So our type eight, Kathy and I have a tendency to be very direct. We do not sugarcoat things. And that is in all areas of our lives, both personally and professionally. But I think what we've seen also is we've we've tried to at least adapt our style. Um, well, not losing who we are and not losing, you know, what we want to say or get out of a situation, but we have tried to adapt our style to benefit the members of our team, because obviously that's management, right? Um, you know, one of our team members, we learned through this process is a six who can be naturally more sensitive. And I should know, like we Kathy, uh, Kathy and I literally had no idea what any of this meant before we talked to six. And we looked into the fact that I'm even throwing out, oh, well, this person is a type six. I would have had no idea what that meant.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And I should mention, uh, with my type one coming in, I would have been highly skeptical of it. Um, but anyway, um, and we really have had to, you know, not censor ourselves, but we've had to be cautious, more cautious perhaps, with the words that we're using or how blunt we are in something.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

That is your number one because you use the word cautious, and I would have said consider it. Both say words. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

There's that one and two coming in.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Sarah, you think we don't pay attention when you talk, but we do pay attention when you talk. We know we can be bulls in China shop, right? We know that when we approach a managerial problem, we both bring the same, let's go get them, let's get it done, let's get this resolved and move on to the next thing. Stacey takes her words more cautiously. I take the words a little more considerately. I do, I do think we we have learned that other people are not AIDS. That's really the shocking news for everyone. Not everyone appreciates our approach, and that is really that's the moral to this story.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

But some people do, a lot of people do, for sure. And in clients, one of the things that we will talk about is the gift of an A is that sometimes you just want to be led in a situation and you just want someone to kind of tell you what to do. And like you were saying, Stacey, not sugarcoat it. So I can see how this energy serves both your team and also the success that you've had with working with your clients. Um, I'm just curious, any any aha's with that, like, oh, our relationships with this client or just overall anything in that area?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

So, I mean, I would say to your point, yeah, some people do want to be led, but I would say I think that um clients appreciate our counsel because they know that we're going to be honest with them to a to a fault sometimes, but they know that we're always going to be honest with them. And I think that um, particularly when we're working with higher level clients or more sensitive situations, um, people need that. Um, they they they crave it, they require it for their jobs. Um, we're not yes people. And so I think that's why we've earned the trust of our clients too. Um, and I'm I'm sure Kathy would agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

I do agree with that. And I I would go even one step further, that um I think being an eight has had um the it gives us the ability to establish confidence with our clients. So sometimes they want to make a decision and they don't have the confidence of themselves to go forward. And oftentimes you need someone to pull the scab off and say, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it, this is what it's gonna cost. And I often love to end with so pick up your big girl pants and let's get on with it.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

I love it. I love it. I mean, I think even starting the business, right, is eight energy, right? The idea that um, I mean, Kathy had been in a very comfortable situation at another agency um for many years where she was leading a team. Kathy had hired me at that agency, and 10 years later, I was leading my own team. And Kathy and I just knew this wasn't the right fit for us anymore. And so she walked into my office one day and was like, I think I'm gonna leave. And without understanding plans of financial compensation, what we would actually be doing, I said, okay, great, yeah, we're gonna leave and we're gonna do this together. And that conversation happened in um February or two, no, March 2000, no, February 2014, I was right. We quit our jobs in March and we started the business in June. I mean, that's lunacy in in some ways, but I think that if we hadn't had the confidence in ourselves, the confidence from our clients, I don't think we would have been able to move as quickly and as nimbly as we did.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

And um, I got to interview Stacey on the uh in one of my previous uh business pursuits about the start of this. And that is so true. And I love that story um because there are some of us who kind of need to know A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And then others, it's like, this is an idea, and like let's jump. I and you kind of we talked about too at the H, just having that confidence in themselves, the gut instinct that maybe you can't explain, you just know. And it sounds like that's kind of what happened with the two of you in that initial stage, is just, I don't know, the plan, but this is the right move. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I mean, I think we also felt confidence in each other too. And I think that was such a big part of it is that, you know, even though we're we were in different stages in our lives, and Kathy had had hired me and at one point was my boss. Like, I think we had an innate trust in each other to do this together.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Okay, so I want to talk about because I know that you said you have a lot of similar eight energy. That's your dominant leading type. And then also it's kind of um, there's some flavoring going on. And Kathy, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. And then I'm gonna ask Stacy to talk a little bit about how she's sees some other flavoring in her and how that comes together for you too.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Well, I would say so. My my flavoring, my special sauce is apparently I'm a type, I'm a type two with that type eight. And that makes me um more empathetic. Um, I always feel that I am my best when I am in service to others, and I always want to put other people first. Um, and and and and I and I um I recognize that more and more in myself, and even with Stacey to a great degree, has helped me recognize um that this is sometimes a force for good and a force for stupidity. I have to remember how to balance those two, those two things. But having said that, um my my ability to be more empathetic to the people we work with or to vendors or to clients balances, I think, in some ways, Stacy's um number number one. And that's yeah, I I do, I mean, Stace, wouldn't you agree? I think part of the reason we complement one another is because we we jump forward because we're type eight, but we may not always have the same um uh reason behind it. And then we can have a great conversation about that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Totally agree. So, as Kathy said, my my extra little spice is is a one, which is structure, discipline, a need to be right, you know, a whole host of other fun things. Um, and to Kathy's point, you know, we joke where we say, like, I'm the no and she's the yes. And somehow that actually merges really well for us because sometimes, and she'll be the first to admit, she's too eager just to say yes to anything, and it puts herself at a disadvantage because she shouldn't be taking on more. And I'm too quick to immediately say no to something. And so I think the balance of that, even though that sounds very simplistic, like the balance of the yes and no works really well for us. And I think too, to Kathy's point, um we we nearly always like I truly can't think of a single situation where we truly disagreed, but we we take different paths to get there, but we nearly always end up at the same place at the end. So I think that just makes for more nuanced conversations. We usually find out things in those conversations that maybe we hadn't thought about before. Um, so it works for us.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

And what I oh, go ahead, Kathy. No, I was just gonna say I'm I'm laughing about that because it's absolutely true. And often it's in service to one another, um, not just for our clients. And when we're good to each other, that that everyone benefits from that. So I do have a terrible problem of saying yes, I take on way too much. And I do that because I have this um ridiculous need um to please. And um and and and it comes from a whole host of things. I'm I'm sure that there's some sort of problem on a gene somewhere. But um Stacy's really um great about uh reigning that in also, because I have to remember too that the time as working people, and imagine a lot of people listening to this are people like us who are either running businesses or running jobs or things. The thing that you have to give away is your time. And so if you are a two and you're used to just jumping in and saying, I've got it because I want to help you, and I'm an eight, so I can get it done better than anybody else you're going to get to do this job. I know it better and to do it faster, and you probably won't have as many edits. Um, you need a sensible number one to say no.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

And in the inverse, right? I'm I'm more skeptical of asks, particularly ones that I feel like are out of scope. Whereas Kathy, you know, feels more about it as relationship building. So I that has been a lesson to me as well to understand like where I need to rein my skepticism in and do it in service of what I believe will come in the future versus the predicament that we're in right now.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Okay. And what I love about both of this, the your kind of experiences with this type is that a lot of times people will focus on a certain list of behaviors and determine am I an A or a two or whatever. And what I I love is that it's this is such a great example of the complexity of human beings. Um, but it's like you can have that same core driver, but the way it looks and it's presented and expressed on the outside might be very different. And so also having some insight into the other types can give you language and insight into the other pieces that you see in yourself or that you see in your partner or a client or a team member or whoever, how how Kathy and uh Stacy are talking about it now with the arrow to the two. Kathy resonated a lot with that, with that movement there. And then I know Stacy was which a lot of people struggle. Am I an eight or a one? They're both in that body type. And so there are a lot of um ways that an eight might look. And so you guys have you ladies have two of those. Um, and and just kind of showing uh yeah, the the different ways that those can be expressed. So I'm curious how this has helped, this insight of what the Enneagram has helped you with your team and better understanding those that you're leading.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Well, I'll give a very, very recent example. So we're um in the middle of revamping our review structure, which um has been necessary for a long time and putting, you know, more parameters on it, um, making it a little bit more professional, allowing for 360 reviews and self-reviews and asking some more pointed questions versus um, you know, our reviews were they were they were professional before, but they were a little fluffier and a little less consistent. Um, so as we're in the process of of revamping all of this, we actually just spilled out a review for a six. Um, and we were direct and we thought, this is this is fantastic. We are we are right on the money. We are saying exactly what we want to say. And we closed it out and we said to each other, do we need do we need to review that again? And it was in the context of knowing that it was super, super direct, but probably not the language that the recipient needed in order to take in that information. So we were like, let's let's sleep on this a night or so, and then let's go back to it. And so I think it was yesterday, we went back and everything that we had written the first time was correct. Like we we agreed with everything we wrote the first time, but we thought there are other ways that we could probably say the same thing and get the same message across that feels to Kathy's point a little bit more considerate, a little bit more empathetic, and a little less direct in in the verbiage. Um, so I mean it came into practice this week and and still has because we haven't actually had the conversation with our employee yet. So as we have that conversation, I think we'll be thinking about that too.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah. We we see it even in our conversations. I mean, that is not the only review this week. There have been several reviews this week, and we find ourselves saying, oh, she is this, we need to react like that. Um, and so I think that that has really helped us. And I think um it's just given us a little bit more of a framework to place that consideration in our approach. And I think that um, and and even for clients, we have one client whose name I will not mention, um, who we love, but who's an interesting personality. And we recognize that he prefers an eight. He wants an eight, he wants to talk to an eight, and he um has little tolerance for people who don't meet him with that sort of direct, um, confident, take charge, assured approach. That is terrific, especially if you can mimic an eight because you have experience. But for a junior staff person who is not an eight or who is not who's who's closer to a six, maybe even a four, those those people um it just presents a More challenge for them. And I think that we have to be mindful of that as well. And when we're matching staff to clients.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I also think, um, and you mentioned this, Sarah, that we we used to have an office and we're now completely remote. And um we went remote during the pandemic, as many people did, and we never went back to fully working in the office. And we've very fortunately grown quite a bit since 2021. And that has meant we've hired new people. And when we first started, I mean, well, we first started, we literally started at my kitchen table, which is 20 feet away from me right now. And then when we grew, you know, we had a WeWork office where we all worked in, it was like a one-room schoolhouse. We all were in the same office every single day. So you really, really got to understand how people operate. You got to understand people's personalities, you saw them as they were on client conference calls. So if someone was a little anxious or someone was really excited about it, you could you could feel the energy in the room. And that's not the case anymore, right? So as you know, for some of the, I'll say, like there are two employees that we have right now that we've never met in person, obviously. We've met many times. We've never been in the same room with these people because they're not in the New York City area. And while we will meet them, you know, right now we're we're relying to some degree on what we can pick up and what we think they might be in terms of these characteristics and how we can best manage them because we don't have that much else to work on other than just working with them day to day. So it's been it's been interesting as we move remote and are less um, you know, less close, like not as close to these people, quite literally, of how we can use what we've learned to try to track people's personalities in a way that you're just not seeing from the everyday anymore.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah, and and a lot of companies I know can relate to that. And it's like trying to get to know people over Slack channels or emails. And so it is just uh, it can be a shortcut and just a starting point, right? Like you might have, they may be a four, but you know, that's not to say every quality is going to be them, but it's like, hey, this could be a starting point. At least give me some questions to ask them what their preferences are or how they see the world or view a situation. And then Kathy, also something that that you both kind of touched on, but you were saying that um that that junior um team member maybe just wasn't ready for that particular client and the using the Enneagram and just kind of to know where they might fit with what client. And I love that because I I think that's also a reminder that each of us kind of has natural tendencies, natural strengths. That's not to say that we can't ever step into something else and grow into something. And so then it's also giving us some language and some guidance as to okay, this is the growth path then. If this is where you want to go, it's not natural for you. Um, and that's okay, but here's what how we can help you get there. And so it's just really it's it's language, it's awareness, it's just so so you're not shooting in the dark, um, is what I I really have loved about it. Um, and you you all have given some great examples of um how how you're applying it in real life, because that's always a question too. It's like, great, this is fun, it's fun to get the mug. Right. What do I do with it? And um, it does. It starts with just kind of that awareness and taking the time to consider, like you were talking about Stacey, where somebody else might be coming from and um where you're coming from and how that there may be some friction there. Yeah, um, and to and to adjust when you need to. Um, I'm curious, is there anything else that um the two of you would add as we kind of start to wrap this up? I'm gonna ask um both of you for, so I'll let you think on it for just a second. Always ask some rapid fire questions about a favorite business book, leadership book, personal growth book. So I'm gonna ask you that in just a second. I'm gonna ask you your definition of success now, because that's always a we're always striving for success, but what does that actually mean? Um, before I get there though, is there anything else that you would share with a leader or um an individual who is considering dipping their toes into the Enneagram or wondering how to use it in specifically the business world, but it could also be in life in general.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Let's see, we're trying to see who's gonna talk first. I would say um the and and to your point, Sarah, I know you said this earlier too. I I think the biggest thing is that as we grow as a business, you know, we started at four people, we're now a team of 21. So that's a lot of personalities to manage. And not everyone has the same management style. We have different teams. Kathy and I simply aren't as close to some of the junior level employees as we once were because there are layers in between us. And so I think that this is also a great way to understand how management flows from top to bottom. So not only looking at it as you know, personality qualities, which yes, they are, but it also feels like it allows us to understand how management flows and how well management works. Um, and I think it allows us, to Kathy's point, to be more considerate to our employees as we make uh changes to processes and practices and consider how those may be received, including the new review structure.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

So for I absolutely agree with everything you said, and I would go even further, and you'll say, Oh, yes, that's right. Because we've changed some of the roles, we've changed the way that we do business because we have really paid, and we at least I would say we've tried very carefully to pay attention to the styles and the strengths of the people who work for us. So, you know, agency life is very um structured. You start at this, you go to this level, this level, and this level. And that's that's the way we grew up in the business, and that's the way that it's worked. But we have found through this exercise and allowing people to tell us how they best approach their jobs so that we can all meet success. Um, and have changed actually some of the roles. We've created an entire new um category of the way that we're working, and we have allowed people to really be honest. I think honest. I think we've really allowed people to be honest about the way that they approach their work. Now we can't, that doesn't mean that we can always do everything and accommodate everyone. We can't. I mean, that's just the business of reality. But I think we have been um much more um willing, willing, Stacy is the word, right? Willing. Yeah. But mostly we're like, that's not the way it's done, but um to to consider different ways um that still bring us to the goals that we want for our clients.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

I think what we're also seeing is for our employees at least, like they they want, they just want to be heard, right? And even to Kathy's point, if we can't, because obviously we're still running a business, we have to be profitable, we have to be efficient, all of those things that come with this and service both to ourselves, our team, and our clients. But if there are moments where our employees can feel heard and they can see, literally, quite literally see the um recommendations that they've given us put into action, I think that that's really helpful too. And to Kathy's point, we've we've been much more transparent about trying to get that feedback so that we're not just moving straight ahead, you know, in our own speed.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

You know, that reminds me, Stacey, there was just uh this article in Entrepreneur Magazine. It said uh the most one of the most critical leadership skills that never gets talked about. And it was validation and just validating whether you can act on it or not, or whether they're right or wrong. It's just, hey, I see you, I hear you, to both of your points, just recognizing, you know, how each other gets to a decision, how your team gets to a decision, what they need, and you know what you do with it is is one thing. But the fact that they feel like, oh my gosh, she really got me goes so far.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Well, it's funny because Kathy and I have talked about um this in another way. So neither one of us would would put words of affirmation of our love language because we we don't find that to be particularly important. Neither one of us feel like we need words of validation in either of our lives. But to your point, we are learning that many of our team members do, and in different ways. So we so we've had to accommodate for that, of course.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

I love it, I love it. Well, you both Kathy, I was smiling big time and Stacey, you too during this last part, just how how you're using it and thinking about it. So it's just being the Enneagram nerd that I am making makes me happy. And um it is, it is what uh whether it's the Enneagram, another tool, strength finder, just anything else new that comes down the line. It's it's just you know, anything that we can do to understand ourselves is a gift to others. Um, and then also to be able to understand others um is a gift to our relationship with those. So I love that. Um, as we start to close this out, I'm gonna ask you, Stacy, first is there a book? Not that anybody listening to this podcast needs another book recommendation, but but we love them and we can't stop getting them. So I'm gonna ask you, um, I'm putting you on the spot, is there one that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah, so so there's two. Um, I wouldn't categorize either one specifically in the realm of uh business, but more so self-reflection and self-help, if you will. So the first is Breathe by James Nestor. Um, and there's quite a quite a lot of it about quite literally breath, but that's both functional and symbolic throughout the book. So it teaches you, yes, how to breathe better for yourself, your body, your mind, your body. But um, it also talks about how just important it is into your into your psyche. Um, and then the second one I'm sure a lot of people have um read or or heard of, but is um a hundred essays that will change the way you think, um, by Brianna Weist. I I like it because it's little snippets of information, right? It's yes, it's a book, but you can digest it at your own speed. You can come back to it. It's not something that you need to digest in one sitting. You could do it over the course of a year if it just that that's the way I like to um to read self-help books sometimes because I'm a speed reader. And so sometimes I can like literally just breeze right through information. Um, but actually having it in smaller packages is helpful for me.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Uh Kathy, what about you? Well, I will just I just have to say that Stacy Royal is when she says she's a speed reader, she is not exaggerating. The woman can just devour.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

And Kathy, I purposely didn't mention the person that you're gonna mention because I knew you would.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

So uh I yeah. So the reason she's saying that is because and lots of listeners here will know Seth Godin, who I am a devotee. I would say most people should probably start with um Purple Cow, which is I don't even know how old that book is now, but it's probably 20 years old. And it's really about um transforming your business by being remarkable, right? So the the purple cow is this really remarkable thing. But but the reason to um follow Seth Godin and he has a um a daily meditation, which I subscribe to and I think it's it's interesting, is because he um he really talks about finding the smallest audience and doing your best work to that audience. You know, so many people feel the need to scale, so many people feel the need to go big, but really I think, and and I I I feel like I've gotten this advice from him, is the magic is in the small moments and creating your business and yourself to satisfy the people that matter the most to you, the smallest audience rather than looking. And then the other parts all sort of fall into place. So um I just I think he's brilliant. Um, and I think he's very digestible. And I think if people are looking for not just um advice on how to run their business, but how to put all of this enormous amounts of information that are coming to us at every day in perspective, he's he's a good resource.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Um, I'm gonna ask you one last rapid-fire question. And that is, what does success look like for you? What does it mean to you? Because everyone's always talking about, you know, we do this to be successful, but what does that actually mean for you, Stacey? I'll start with you.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

So Kathy and I have talked a lot this about this a lot in terms of our business. Um and we have never set out for growth for growth's sake. We are not looking to become the next Edelman. We're not looking to be a 200-person PR agency. We are looking to be a highly sought-after, highly respected, and highly profitable agency to the best service of our clients and ourselves. And I think um, you know, we're in a moment of transition right now, which, you know, we are growing. And so there's a little bit of growing pains, but I think at the end of the day, success is gonna look like contentment. So it's gonna feel like we have a handle on everything. It's gonna feel like we're not, you know, working every weekend. And we know we're gonna get there. We're just not, you know, we're in this moment where we're not quite there yet, even though by most indicators, we are very successful, both in our personal and professional lives.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah, we're lucky. I'm gonna answer that in a classic eight fashion. And I think success is freedom, it's autonomy. And I feel that we have done both of those things. And, you know, I mean, after a certain bit, there's very little. You'd be surprised at how very little people actually need to feel successful if they just took a deep breath and thought about what that means for them. And for me, it is freedom and it is autonomy. It's the power to do what I want to do in the way that I want to do it, when I want to do it. Um and I I um and so I think we're both very successful.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that and all that you've shared. I know um putting people on the spot to talk about their personality is literally one of the most personal things you could talk about. So thank you for opening up and sharing um about yourselves and and how you're using this. Um, as we close out today, where can people um learn more about the work that you guys do at Decker and Royal? Um, Stacy, where's the best place?

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yeah, you can go to our websites www.decker d-e-c-e-r, royal, r-o-y-a-l.com.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

And then is there anything else that you would like to share about the Enneagram personality growth that I haven't asked you?

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Thank you, Sarah. Thank you for this opportunity. I didn't know anything about anagrams until um until you came.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

I was just gonna say, I think that's so important. Neither one of us knew anything about this before we did it. And I think we did this in April, right? April, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

And we've shared it with our clients, we've shared it with our customers, and we've shared it with our team. Um, we've shared it with my husband. I pull out my eight mug whenever I can just to show who I am. Um, and um yeah, it's just been a it's been a great experience and you've been terrific to work with. We really appreciate everything.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Well, thank you for saying that. It is, it's just nice to be able to take time to learn about yourself and be able to explain why you are the way that you are or understand why somebody else is. So I appreciate you for saying that. And I appreciate you all for doing this and uh for being willing to bring the Enneagram to you all. So um, thank you so much, and uh we will uh be seeing you around. Thank you, Sarah. Bye. When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.