SPEAKER_02 0:00

Back in 2015, the Harvard Business Review shared an article called What Everyone Should Know About Managing Up. And inside, they talked a lot about just, you know, how your life can be so much easier when you have that healthy, positive relationship with your boss. It's good for your job satisfaction, it's good for your career path, your career opportunities. But of course, not every manager makes that easy. And they actually listed 10 types of boss that can have a more challenging working dynamic. Um, I will share those with you just in case anybody comes to mind for you. But one was the brand new boss, someone you've never met before. One was a manager that you don't see face to face, you don't work in the same location with. There's the insecure boss, there's the all-knowing boss, there's the indecisive boss, a manager who gives you conflicting messages, a long-winded boss, a hands-off boss, a manager who maybe isn't as smart as you, and then a boss that's actually a board of directors. So depending on where you are in your company, you might be at the very top and someone and have to answer to a board instead of just a single person. So lots of different dynamics there, lots of potential challenges, but also lots of potential opportunities. And my guest today is Joy Peterson, and she is going to talk about how to navigate that relationship that you have with your boss, how to use the Enneagram to manage up. Um, Joy is the founder of the Clarity Collective, where inside this company, they she helps individuals and teams focus on reaching their potential. They identify their unique strengths to help them find ways to manage change and transition, loss, work-life balance, um, and other challenges that come along in a career. She also has her master's in counseling and guidance from Cal Poly, and then she has a PhD in educational leadership from the University of California. She's a certified Enneagram instructor and a Martha Beck life coach. So lots of wisdom, lots of experience and expertise coming in. I will also tell you that Joy identifies as an Enneagram type five. So no surprise, she's coming to the table with a lot of um knowledge. Um, I'm excited to introduce you to her and excited for us all to learn from her. You're listening to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

I do tell this story in a lot of my trainings because um this particular situation with my boss is what really sold me on the Enneagram. Um, so I'll just share briefly that um I am a five. So many of the folks who follow my work know I'm a five. And um, at the time my supervisor was an eight. And she and I worked closely in a program that that helped students in crisis. And so frequently we would get a call from um the hospital or the police saying that there's been a crisis and someone from our office needed to go out and respond. And when we first started working together, uh, she would come into my office, so eight, full of energy, all in, intense, like, there's a crisis. And I would look up at her from my desk and be like, okay, I'm on it, you know, I'll go to the hospital. And um, after the first year of working together in our in my evaluation, she made some comments about not really knowing if I was um if I was capable of handling the crisis or if I was dealing with it, you know, in the most taking it seriously as seriously as I should. And I'm kind of paring down my story for for the this purpose, but um, and and then I went to this Enneagram Institute training, introduction to the Enneagram, and I learned about harmonic groups and the different ways that the types deal with crisis, stress, conflict. And so for the five, we're in the competency group. We deal with things rationally, logically, and unemotionally. Um, eights bring a lot of energy, intensity, and they need to know that you get it. You understand the importance, the severity, the level of of um of seriousness. And so that was like an aha moment for me. So I went back to work that uh after that workshop. And the next time she came into my office, I literally stood up out of my desk, looked her in the eye, and I was like, I got this. I got your back. I'm on it. And and I could just see like a visible shift in her response. You know, she kind of took a sigh, like, okay, I can I can give you this. I know that you have it, and I have faith and confidence in you. Um, and that year my evaluations were totally different, like completely um, you know, changed in terms of her level of um of trust. Um, she just felt like I was so much more capable of anything. And honestly, after she left my office, I sat down back at my desk and I did the same thing that I always would do: call the hospital, go see the student, deal with the crisis. Um, but she needed that confirmation that I was gonna meet her where she was at. And without that, there was a little bit of doubt. Like, you know, do I really have it? Do can she really give me the ball and trust that I'm gonna take care of the thing? So that is for me um one of the biggest gifts that the Enneagram has given me in my personal life or my professional life, I should say. Um, and I do that still with other uh supervisors that I have, people who are in roles um, you know, in the organizational structure that are uh over my own. And it has helped a lot. It's also helped me to not take things personally. Um, if I'm talking to someone and I'm providing too much detail and they just want to get to the point, I can see, oh, they're a three or they're an eight. They don't need all this background information. Um and it's not because they don't like me or they don't think that I'm doing a good job, um, but it's not the way that they what it's not what they need to make a decision or to move forward. So knowing, you know, what people need, how they're getting their needs met, why they're behaving the way they are, um can be really helpful in getting the work done.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Okay, I love that story. Such a great illustration of the importance of understanding, but it and it sounds like there's really two pieces to this understanding yourself and what your tendencies might be. Um, and then also understanding that individual um in front of you. I'm I'm just curious. Um, I people like to hear examples, like very specific examples. So you gave a great one of an eight-leader with a five reporting to them. I'm curious, could we reverse that situation and just maybe from another story from your experience, um, what it's like, what we should know about maybe someone leading as a five that we work with report to?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah. So I also have an eight that reports to me.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Um, and uh I often need a lot more detail than she provides. So I need to know the why. Show me the data, tell me the history, um, rather than coming in and saying, you know, we need to make a change. We need XYZ. Well, I'm gonna have a lot of questions. So, you know, in that reverse relationship, um, if you report to a five, you should be prepared to come prepared, you know. Um, did you think this all the way through to the nth degree? Have you made a plan? Have you made a timeline? Have you um gotten input from other stakeholders? And that's what I need to make a decision to move forward versus somebody who's just pushing really hard because they have a lot of energy and they um they want it to happen.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

I love that. Okay. I'm curious for those of us um maybe who we haven't gone through an Enneagram workshop yet, and maybe we don't know um what our leader's type is, our boss's type is. Are there things that knowing our own type and our own personality though, are there ways to maybe start to understand or or different hacks to use to um at least start to kind of move into that process, even if we don't know their exact type yet?

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yeah, I can share, just quickly go. I can go through the Enneagram and share what I think. Okay, yeah. For each type, like a hack, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah, that would be really fun. Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah. Uh and a lot of it goes back to motivation. So this is gonna sound just pretty much like basic Enneagram 101. Um, but ones are really motivated by right and wrong and doing what's right in the world. So if your supervisor is a one, I would say um approaching them from um the perspective of compliance or or social justice, like this is the right thing to do. Um, and then providing evidence of why, because that's gonna speak to them um and be more compelling. For a two being the helper, I would say this is going to help people. Um, twos also really want to be liked. So, you know, and this sounds a bit manipulative, I think, um, but um, but you know, take it with a grain of salt, I would say. Like this is not the only way or reason to approach someone this way. But, you know, if your supervisor is a two, they're gonna want to be helpful. And so you can let them know ways in which they can help you, things that would be helpful for the team, what would help the organization, um, and and know that they want to be liked. And so something that you're bringing to them that's gonna cause a lot of um disruption, disharmony, you know, have a plan for how to mitigate that, right? So that even so maybe that's the right thing to do, um, to dive into a conflict head on, but but know that your two boss is not gonna go there immediately and will need to see the benefits of creating disharmony in the group. Um, for threes, they want to win, so they want to look good. Um, so if you have opportunities for um gaining recognition for your organization or your team or your boss, um, applying for an award or a um an honorary something, you know, that's gonna really appeal to them. And if you yourself have done something positive that brings um your organization into a good light, be sure to put that in front of them because that will give you um extra uh favor, I would say, for a three.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Um, fours are individualists, they're creative, they like to be unique, they like to stand apart. So if you have something that is going to make your organization different, or um you have a really creative idea, or you are able to help them um with one of their creative ideas, that's gonna uh be looked upon, I think, favorably by a four. Um they have a lot of good ideas and and creativity. And if you can help bring that to um fruition, I think that would be helpful for the four leader. Um, fives have the need for data research, understanding the why. So I kind of shared earlier like if you're gonna come to me as a as a um as your supervisor, I'm gonna want to know why we are doing this? What does the data support? Um, fours, fives, and nines are past thinkers, so we like to look at the past and see how that informs the present. Um, threes, sevens, and eights are future thinkers, so they're gonna want to know, they're gonna want to focus on the future and they're not gonna want to focus on the past so much. Um, sixes are um are loyalists or loyal skeptics, and they're motivated by safety and security. So if you have anything that involves risk or um or potential threats, you're gonna wanna mitigate that with your boss and show why or why not um the decision or the course of action is safe. And if it's not safe, what you're doing to uh assure that the whole thing doesn't come crashing down.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah, I I want to interject for just a moment because the six made me think of this, but with all of these, I'm sure that there's multiple things where it almost makes like if they're giving you feedback or like a six, if if they're questioning you, I know sometimes that might feel like do they not trust me? Um, are they questioning my abilities? But knowing that somebody, your your boss kind of is motivated by those things, it makes sense and it can feel like less of a a personal attack and just, oh, this is this is just it. Like I don't have to attach meaning to it. And I'm sure that there's things with each of those where you where maybe it can irk you or make you feel a certain way, but when you know the story behind it, it can make it just a little easier maybe to take or do it, you know, w without making it personal and just it is what it is because it's so easy to attach meaning to certain things.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Absolutely. I mean, that's a big part of what I mean when I say don't don't take things personally, or the enneagram helps you to not take things personally. And and that's a big one. Like I think when we get questioned, when people ask us why, tell me more, I don't understand. Yeah, um, that can feel very um much like an attack or a lack of value or lack of trust. Um, but for certain types, like ones, fives, sixes, um, they ask a lot of questions and their motivation is slightly different, right? The one wants to ask questions because they want to know is this the right thing? The five wants to understand the whole thing, and the six wants to make sure it's safe.

unknown 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

So those types are more likely to ask questions and just understanding that as a peer, as a coworker, as an employee, that these questions are not to um invalidate you or to question your competence or to demonstrate a lack of trust. They're questions that that person needs in order to get their need met, um, which ultimately you're you need to get the job done.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Yeah, yeah. So well said. Um, okay, so what about seven? What are some clues about that?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

So sevens like to have fun. They don't like to go deep too deep into the details or the heaviness. So, you know, if you're pitching an idea to a seven, you want to keep it really high level and um and present it in a way that is fun versus like a doomsday approach. This is what's coming and it's all bad, you know. Um, they want to know like what's good and what's what's next and what's fun and what's outside the box. Um and not to say you shouldn't, I'm again, this is the five in me saying you need to have all those details ironed out as well. But when you go to your boss, know that they're not gonna necessarily want to have that level of detail.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yeah, I will say as a seven, that that hits it that totally hits because it it can feel like so overwhelming initially if it's like new idea, all these details where it's like, let's just high level it. And of course, like you we need to get there, but um that one totally resonates. I feel that one, Joy.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I uh had a job managing a bunch of um uh students at one point, and I always felt like my job was just vibe control, like keeping up and keeping things moving. And um, we did a lot of events and and they were a really fun group. But my boss and I would joke that you know, being a manager is often just vibe control. And I think it's the same with managing your boss, like what's the vibe? Read the room, right? If you're like checking out and their eyes are glazed over, like know your impact. And I think that's where you were saying, like it comes back to knowing yourself too. Like you can communicate in the way that we like to be communicated with, and it's different for different people. So if I come with a bunch of spreadsheets to my boss who's a seven, I'm gonna lose their attention right away. Yeah, better to keep it like visual with the big, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Big ideas, yeah. Yeah. Um, well, I know we've talked a little about the eight. Anything else to add?

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah, so eights um like sevens, they they are high energy intense. Three sevens, eights have similar um energy. And um the difference with the seven and the eight is and actually that all three of them are different are in different harmonic groups. So the sevens, since we were just talking about seven, they're optimists. And so they're gonna look at a problem optimistically and and frame it in a positive way, look on the bright side. Um, the eight doesn't necessarily need to have it framed positively, um, but they're gonna bring a lot of intensity to it. So it's it's not necessarily positive or negative, but just meeting again, like I said in my earlier example, meeting them where they're at so that they know that you're in it with them. And um, that's really important to eights, that we're in it together. They are um sensitive to betrayal, kind of like the sixes, the loyalist and the six is sensitive to betrayal. And so um just being aware of that, that that might be something that they're constantly thinking about and wondering, you know, is this can I trust you? And do you have my best interest in at heart? And are you gonna betray me? Yeah, and then nines are um the peacemaker, and so they're going to want to keep things harmonious. They're also optimists, like the sevens. So they're looking on the bright side, they want to focus on the good. Um and the thing about the nine, uh I would say I talk a lot about managing nines because they have great ideas and they can see all sides. And when they get into a group, they um can have a difficult time um saying what they think the group should do because they just kind of go along to get along.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

So if you have a nine as a supervisor, it it could be that they change their mind a lot. So they, you know, one person might come in and pitch an idea and they're like, oh yeah, that sounds good. And then someone comes in and pitches the opposite of that idea. And say, Oh, well, that sounds good too. So don't be surprised if your nine boss can see the good in both sides, every side. Um, that might be frustrating, I could imagine, as a um as someone who reports to a nine. But again, that's where it's important not to take things personally.

unknown 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

And you see that, you know, if you work for someone who does see all sides, that that could be good for your organization in other ways.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah, that's a great point. Um, that, you know, even if they are frustrating you, there's also strengths that they're bringing to the team, to the organization that maybe you haven't noticed because of the frustration. But when you start to understand them a little bit better, you can kind of see that that high side or some of those strengths, like you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah, and there absolutely is a high side to every type. I know sometimes people think, oh, I wish I was more of this type because that sounds more fun, or they have it easier. Um, but there's there's really no one type that's better.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Okay, I'm glad you said that. Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a question that I get a lot. Like, what are not so much like what are the best couples, which I do hear that a lot, but like, what's the best combination? Like, what's the best boss? What's the best type of leader? And we'll talk about the high side and the low side. Um, but what would be your response to that?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

So I'm pretty passionate about this. Question. Okay. Talk a lot about socialization in our culture. So mainstream American culture really rewards certain behaviors and types. And so that can also be our socialization by gender. So for example, you know, women or female identified folks are really rewarded for two-ish type behaviors and helping people and being generous and selflessness. And um, and then uh on the other end of the binary, you know, male identified folks or men are socialized and rewarded for eight-ish type behavior. So really the power, the control, the respect, command. Um, and so for men who identify as twos or women who identify as eights, their experiences are very different because our culture uh treats men and women differently in in response to those behaviors. So, going back to your question about leadership, our culture really rewards threes, sevens, and eights for specific types of behaviors that are seen to be leadership qualities. So hustling, like the three, hustling, constantly working, constant energy, always driving for the next win, the next success, the next accolade. Um, it's very hard for threes to put down their work and focus on their self-care because their tendency to overwork is so heavily rewarded by our culture.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Um, for sevens, big ideas, um, big risks, big energy, thinking outside the box, all that creativity that drives entrepreneurial shift, like sevens are really rewarded for that. Um, eights, again, the command, the power, the control, um, that is our stereotypical image of leadership that we hold up as the gold standard, I feel, in our mainstream culture. Now, where does that leave the other types? Because the reason I'm so passionate about this is I think all the types bring equal value to leadership. Uh, I think a one can be an excellent leader, having the ability to um to dot the I's, cross the T's, the attention to detail. I mean, ones are often the folks behind the scenes doing all the work and not getting enough credit. So I would really like to have a shift our vision of what it means to be a leader as a culture and be able to create space for different types of for different types, I should just say, to uh to emerge and be valued as leaders because um all the types have great qualities. And I think it's mostly the way that we have um chosen to structure and reward folks uh that we believe to be what it is to be a leader.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Yeah, that I'm so glad that you went into that a little bit um because that is so true. And the the gender difference is absolutely something there too. And I know, you know, culture, all kinds of things kind of can play into that. Um and uh I I I love I love that you said that because uh anytime there's an example of a five or a nine in some type of leadership position, um, it's it's great to hear their experience and be a kind of an example that right, it's not just the three sevens and eights. Um, we all have these these capabilities. Are there so as you were talking, Joy, um, there is a book, and I don't know if I have it, um, The Nine Types of Leadership by Beatrice Chestnut. Oh yeah, okay. She has for anybody listening, she has this really great um overview of each of the ties and gets really detailed. But then she has this section about if you're leading a nine, if you are a nine, um, and I think it's if you're working with a nine, just kind of these different scenarios is really good. Sounds like um you're very familiar with it. Are there any other resources like that that you use or would recommend for us to understand um our the the relationship with our boss a little bit better?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah, I mean, uh there's great books that have been published in the last five years about the Enneagram that are a lot more accessible in terms of having visuals and graphics and love that. Um so I I like a lot of the books that came out, you know, during the pandemic and in the in the recent years. Um the books that were written in the 60s and 70s, the original sort of grandfathers of the Enneagram authors, um, many of them were academic. And and those are the books that I was first introduced to when I was interested in the Enneagram. And they were, I'll be honest, a little bit intimidating. Um, but if you if you want a deeper dive into the Enneagram, um those are the ones that really talk about the psychology of the types, like their um their defense mechanisms. So understanding the defense mechanisms of all the types is is really helpful, um, both to provide insight to yourself. You know, if I'm a five, what do I do in um in stress and how do I prevent myself from seeing all um all sides? Yeah. And so that can be really helpful. Um there's also the different levels, and you talked earlier about relationship compatibility. And so my response to what types have the best relationships has more to do with levels. And um, each type has a healthy level and an unhealthy level. So whether you're a one and an eight or a two and a three, if you're both at a healthy level, you're gonna have a more compatible relationship versus someone who's at an unhealthy level and a person at a healthy level. So being able to recognize what the types look like at the different levels of health, um, we all sort of burn out in different ways. Um, and that's why self-care is not the same for all the types. There's another book that came out recently, or in the last few years, about self-care, taking care of your type. And um I don't know if that's necessarily like helpful in understanding your boss, but definitely it's helpful in knowing when you're getting close to burnout and what you need to do about it.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

So um I think that that is really important because it it's like you're saying, like if you're really stressed out and not taking care of yourself, like that relationship with your boss is going to be that much more contentious or or or hard. Um, so I I love that recommendation. Um, I also saw on your website, it was right here, but I I know we both, it sounds like are Hillary Kay fans. She has one called Unlock Your Potential at Work. Um, so that that's another one. But I I love um just kind of these different parts of the defense mechanisms is really interesting. So we've we've talked a lot about understanding our boss to better communicate and better um, I don't know, avoid, but maybe better navigate conflict as well. Are there other benefits of using the Enneagram or better understanding ourselves and our boss's personality that um show up in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, well, I think I mentioned the harmonic groups. Um so knowing how you and your boss differ in terms of response to conflict. Um, the three harmonic groups are the competency folks. So those are the ones, threes, and fives. They want to handle things rationally and emotionally with data. There's the positivity folks, the two sevens and nines. They want to focus on um, you know, the good. And uh when the ship's going down, they're gonna say things like, it's a great day for a swim.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

And then um the four, sixes, and eights, those are the um intensity folks. So they bring intensity, they need to know that you're with them, you're all in. Um, that has been the most helpful part of the Enneagram for me at work. And it kind of um ties into the story that I shared at the beginning about the different ways that my boss and I would respond to crisis. Um, so understanding the harmonic groups, and then, like you said, understanding yourself, understanding your boss's motivation and what need they're trying to get met. Because I say we're all trying to get our needs met, it's just a matter of how. And you know, some of us lean in to get our needs met, some of us lean out.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

And some of us push it our way around.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Yeah, yeah. Um, the the harmonic triad one is a is, I'm glad you brought that back up because I think that's one, regardless of your Enneagram type, or regardless if you know someone's Enneagram type, that one's like there's three groups. You can kind of get a sense of like where someone's coming from or how they handle. So this could be you great with like clients who maybe have no idea. Yeah. Um, I'm curious, have you seen uh any benefits or what could be the benefits when it comes to um receiving or giving feedback in the workplace, understanding uh someone's Enneagram type?

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah, you're just touching on all my passion points. So okay, good. Uh feedback is also something I'm really passionate about. And um if it's done correctly with good intentions, feedback can be the biggest gift that anyone can give you or that you can give someone. Um if someone wants to give you feedback, I I think it's really important to be to listen, to be present, to be open. Um it might be hard to hear, it might be something that you don't agree with. And so always, you know, consider the source, consider their intentions. Um, but is there a grain of truth in what they're sharing? And um, and if there is, then then what do you want to do about it? And and sometimes um, you know, I can I'll hold feedback loosely and and and try something different and see if that has a different outcome or impact. Um, and if not, then I'll just go back to the way that I was doing it before. But um, but feedback can help us understand our impact. And and a big part of what I do in my work with clients and teams is aligning your intention with your impact. So if your intention is to be approachable, um, liked or um trusted, but like for example, for me, I'm a five and I would love to come into work every day, shut my door, and go right into my emails. Yeah. To me, feel safe, comfortable, cozy. That's that's right in my comfort zone. Um, but that's not gonna help me build relationships, that's not gonna build trust. I mean, email is a terrible way to communicate with people and build relationships. So I need, if I want to be approachable and trustworthy, to go out, look people in the eye, ask them how their weekend was, learn about what's going on with them personally, professionally, you know, find out how I can help them with their hopes and dreams. And as a five, again, that's outside my comfort zone. So um that's where the intention and the impact come into play. And um, and then what was I, where was I going with that?

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Um, uh, let's see, feedback.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Oh, feedback, yes. So the the feedback can tell you where you're out of alignment. And and again, you know, you take it with a grain of salt, but um, but it like I said, it's a huge gift for someone to hold the mirror up and show you where basically you might your ass might be hanging out, yeah, because you don't see it. And the higher up you go in the ladder, the more I, you know, it's a funny expression, but the more of your ass it's hanging out. Um and people don't want to tell you it becomes like the emperor with no clothes, right? So if you are in a high-level leadership position and somebody has the courage that you trust and believe really wants to improve the situation, um, to give you feedback. I mean, that's that's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

It it is, it is. It can definitely sting and feel cringy at times too. So I feel that too. Um and you know, as you were talking, I was thinking like maybe the eight would give me the same vein of feedback as let's say, I don't know, a two, but maybe the delivery would be even a little different. And knowing that could be helpful and accepting it. Cause I I think sometimes too that that's part of that and how it can it's received, but it's like, well, man, this this age is really gave it to me. That was that was that was direct. It's like, well, that's how that person is. So um that might be a little easier.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Absolutely, absolutely. It's um it has a lot to do with the other person, you know, what their communication style is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Communication style.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah. I'll also say, you know, going back to our mainstream American culture, that we really value direct communication, um, but that's not necessarily the way that all people feel comfortable communicating. So understanding that there's different ways of communicating and um and being willing to dig a little bit deeper, you know, somebody from a collectivistic culture might be trying to give you feedback. And I've heard people say, um, like leaders, you know, uh, I had this employee, they were hinting at something, but they didn't come right out and say it. And I need direct communication. Well, in some cultures, hinting at something is as direct as you're gonna get because they're not going to publicly embarrass you or call you out if you're their supervisor. So as a leader, I think it's helpful to know, you know, what is happening out in my organization that I should be seeing. Um, and how do I figure it out if people aren't going to communicate it to me directly?

SPEAKER_02 37:11

So I'm glad you said that. Uh uh, I'm really glad you said that because you're right. It that the directness is very valued, but there are all kinds of different ways that are equally as helpful and valuable. Um, I I have one more question, I think, that before we start to wrap it up. Um and this has to do with um, I guess, knowing ourselves more using the Enneagram or whatever tools are out there to advocate um for what we need. And maybe this is me projecting a little bit, but sometimes I I might have had conflict in the past because I was irritated or frustrated, but I didn't know what I couldn't put words. And so because I couldn't use words, I wasn't able to ever have a productive conversation. So I just spiraled and frustrated and resentment. Um, how have you seen people use the Enneagram in the workplace to be able to advocate for themselves or just better communicate with their bosses what they need or what they prefer?

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah, I I think you're right on naming something is the first step in solving it. And so um reading, you know, these books that you that we were talking about earlier, getting more language, getting more clarity around your motivation can give you those words to communicate to your supervisor or to your partner, um, understanding what you need. Because I feel like so many people, when they read the description of their type, they're like, oh my gosh, like how how did they describe me so accurately? And and that I feel like that's one of the gifts of the Enneagram, is it gives us the language to say, you know what? Like I am struggling with this because I need to understand. And there are a lot of things that I have struggled with in my life, um, changes. And when I read the Enneagram, it was like, oh, that's why I kept like going back to those times in my life, because I really want to understand. And that I don't have closure or I don't have the information. And so that's kind of why I ruminate on those situations, is because of my need to understand them. Um so the language that the Enneagram provides, whether it's through the written word, through the through the books that you read or the trainings you go to, or um just adds to that uh adds to our vocabulary and ability to explain our needs. Yeah, it does. Yeah. And then in terms of going to your boss to ask for something, again, it's that intention and the impact. Like if I know my boss needs me to make a case for why I need a raise or why I need more flexibility or why I need to leave work early to pick up my kid. You know, how am I gonna communicate that to them knowing their type and knowing my type? Um, it might I might have to go outside my comfort zone again, right? To say, I need something. Like for an eight, it's very hard to admit that they need anything. So they might actually have to say, I need your help. Um, and if there's an eight speaking to a two, the two is going to be like, Yes, absolutely. I want to help you, pick up your kids, you know. But the eight might have that like fear of vulnerability. Like, how can I go to my boss and say I actually need something that I'm not like invincible?

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Yeah, such good examples. Um there's uh we this has been a really helpful conversation. And like I said, this has been fun to do because it's something I haven't done before. Um, and I I had made some notes on my phone to ask you. Um, but I'm curious, is there anything that I missed that you would like me to ask you to kind of just make this conversation feel complete?

SPEAKER_00 41:16

I feel like we've covered a lot of ground. Um yeah, I'm looking at my notes and I feel like we've covered pretty much everything that I wanted to share.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Yeah, we've gotten to a lot of uh a lot of uh different things. So that's been good. Um as we start to wrap it up, I I do have a couple of rapid fire questions for you. Um, but before we get there, I know you have a newsletter. There's some things that you're doing. Um, for anybody who wants to say, uh you were in my head as a type five, um, or learn uh more about you and how to work with you. Where is the best place to find out more about you?

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yeah, I have most of my stuff on Instagram at um Enagram Clarity. I did, I was very active on Instagram during the pandemic and have posted a lot of material and content there. Um, I do have a newsletter which I use to keep in touch with folks who want a little bit more connection. Uh, and even though I'm not as active on Instagram now, I still do a lot of coaching and consulting, team building. So feel free to reach out to me. I love the Enneagram. I love talking about it. I could talk about it all day. Um, but I've just moved away from Instagram in the last year or so for various reasons.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

But I I get that. And I will attest though, even though maybe you haven't been active recently, there's still so many good graphics and just kind of quick tips about all a lot of what we've talked about and just using it in the workplace and life in general, parenting relationships. So um I have gotten a lot out of it as well. So definitely encourage you to um connect with Joy, check out the all the content, um, sign up for the newsletter. And then as we close this out, I'm curious. Um, we do, you know, this this is a show for uh those of us in in the workplace, maybe we have our own businesses. Um, but with that comes this idea of success. And I'm curious what your version of success looks like right now.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I was actually thinking as I was driving in this morning about presence, like the ability to be present. And as my life has gotten busier and I have more commitments and more obligations, I really struggle with that being present part. Um, and I think a big part of success to me would be how often am I able to be present when, where, under what circumstances, and the ability to be present more often than not. Um, to me right now, in this moment today, this morning, driving to work, I'm like that would be success, um, especially in a world where there are so many distractions and things pulling at our attention. You know, can I sit with someone and give them that my full attention? And if I can't, because I'm worried about paying my utility bill or something going on in my daughter's life or my relationship, like all of those things draw you away from being present. And, you know, to some are like uh another indicator of success. You know, am I being successful in my relationship? Am I being successful at work? Am I financially stable? Um, but for me, right now, it feels like those are all things that that pull your attention away. And if you're able to be in the moment um and present with someone and attentive, that that would be a level of success.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

I love that. As a seven, I that is probably some of my work to do as well. So that's a good reminder. Um, we already talked about a few Enneagram books already. If there's another one you want to add, feel free. But I'm curious, um, not I always say not that anybody listening to this needs another book recommendation, but we love it. So, what is a book, other than an Enneagram book, that has been influential, whether it's forever ago or just something you read recently that might help us either in the workplace or just along our personal growth journey?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

You know, a book that I really loved that I read last year. It's been out for uh longer, but I read Um Where the Crawdad Sing. Okay. And it's a great book. And they also made it into a movie. The movie was good. Um, but for me, not that that has anything to do with work, but for me, nature, I mean, it talks her whole thing is like she grows up on the swamp and she has this connection to nature that's like very deep. Um, and I find nature to be like really grounding and gives me perspective. Um, and that was another interesting thing about the book is like the perspective from which she experienced the world based on her childhood and everything that happened to her. Um, so anyway, I I bring that up because I think nature is really powerful um in grounding and centering us. And it it's important in our work that we have balance. So I just think that there's that interesting connection.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

It is okay. These are supposed to be rapid fire, and I'm not supposed to say anything, but I just have to comment. I just watched that movie. I haven't read the book yet. It was a beautiful movie, and you're absolutely right. It just makes you want to go on a hike. Um I think it was last year we had a woman, um, Pam Cho. She was on the show. She is an executive coach, but got certified in forest bathing. And so she she takes her clients instead of meeting over Zoom. Yeah. I thought, oh, I absolutely love that. That was a great conversation. So right in line with that.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Yeah. And as we spend more time in our offices and in our work and on the computer and on Zoom, like we we're unless you are a naturalist or something, like we're by default um separating ourselves from the natural world.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Yeah. Um, okay. Last one, um, as a Enneagram practitioner and and certified guide and coach, um, I'm curious, is there something about the Enneagram that you wish more people knew about?

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Well, I'm really fascinated by this um this impact of socialization that I kind of alluded to today. I talked about the way that gendered folks are socialized and the work culture, the way that we socialize around work culture. Um, but I think there's a lot of different arenas of the Enneagram that haven't been explored yet. Um I mean, one of the things I love about the Enneagram is that nobody really owns it. It's not copyrighted, it doesn't belong to anyone. And so there's so many different ways to take it. Um, and I look forward to folks with different identities being introduced to the work and where it might take us collectively as Enneagram practitioners. You know, what do different people with different lived experiences bring to the work that's already been done um on the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah. Um at the time of this recording, it should already be out, but I um interviewed Jessica, um, Denise Dixon about how, you know, what does race have to do with the Enneagram? And she gave some really great examples of, you know, as a black eight woman that looks very different than a white eight man. Um, and so you're right, like there's all we have the the text uh, you know, that shows us kind of the descriptions, but then there's all these other things that kind of play into how it actually shows up in real life. So I love you said that.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Yeah, yeah. I'm a big fan of hers.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

I know. I I said your posts always make me think. Like I you always have me thinking whenever I'm I'm I'm on your Instagram page. So same with you. I I um I have enjoyed learning from you and uh really enjoyed having this conversation. I appreciate you being on here. Um, as always, as a listener, definitely reach out to Joy, let her know what you're taking away from this one. And uh with that, Joy, I appreciate you being here.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Thank you. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.