SPEAKER_01 0:01

You're listening to the Enneagram MBA podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. To kick it off, would you introduce yourself to the Enneagram MBA listeners?

SPEAKER_00 0:21

So I am Jamie Van Kyke. I am the owner of Growing Your Team. At Growing Your Team, small business owners hire us to teach them how to hire like a pro. So we really focus on helping businesses get the right member on their team, not just someone who can do the tasks, but someone that really fits into the culture. Someone as a business owner, you're going to say, Yes, I am happy to be paying this person. Instead of that person feel like they're a drain. So we help with writing job postings, providing interview guides, we do coaching and consulting to really teach people how to hire every step of the way. And we do full service recruiting. So if you don't have time to hire, we take over the process for you. So that way you just come in, complete those final interviews with the top candidates and make your decision.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Okay. And I will say, as somebody who is, you know, just in the initial phases of starting to think about what that person might look like for my company in the future, that is such an incredible help because it's like, I need help, but like, how do I even describe what I need help with? And then who is that person that would be a fit? And how do I communicate that or articulate that? So I love the work that you do. And I can imagine how incredibly valuable and needed it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

With hiring, we talk about personality tests and assessments a lot because there's always a lot of questions about how to properly use them during the hiring process. And, you know, on the podcast, we've had people come on and talk about different assessments. And I think each assessment provides something different. There's not really two assessments that are going to give you the exact same information where it's like, do I go with this company or do I go with this company when it comes to the actual assessments? So I think sometimes it's good to sometimes do more than one of the assessments. Find out what really is giving you the right information. And like you said, Sarah, like they they kind of all like they show you something different. They uncover different things about you, your personality, your work style, how you operate under stress. So, you know, I always say, like, do more than one if you need to. But Enneagram is one that I know I recently heard about it, probably in 2020, early 2020. And since I've heard about it then, I hear a lot about it. I know it's very popular in the small business world. So I'm so excited to dive more into it today.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

It is. I okay, just would you, out of curiosity, would you be willing to share what type you most identify with?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yes, I am a three.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Okay. Okay. And then, which is very common in this entrepreneurial kind of leadership space. Um, and then I identify most as a type seven. And it's just really funny, you know, when I'm really honest with myself, um, which is hard to do sometimes, but it's like, oh my gosh, how accurate that is and like why I tend to have the same challenges or the same problems over and over if I'm, you know, kind of digging into it. Um and it's it's so on point, it's scary.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yes. And it's so interesting because like you said, so accurate. So last night I was reading through the uh know your number document that you have, which if anyone knows their number and wants to find out more about it, Lisara on her website has these wonderful guides that you can uh purchase and download. And I'm reading through it and I'm just like, yep. Oh gosh, 100% yes, yes, yes, yes, that's 100% me. And I'm just like, yes, I am definitely a three. Like it is 100% accurate.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Okay, so I'm I'm curious. Um, this might be interesting for your listeners too. Um so the three sometimes is known as the achiever or the performer. And I think we all have a lot of three in us just as a culture, it's ingrained in us in different areas. Um, but how do you see that three energy showing up in the work that you do, specifically running your own business and and running a team, like leadership style-wise?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah. So I would say some of the things that really stood out to me is we talked about some of the core qualities. Efficient was the first word that was there. And I know a lot of the other assessments I've taken. Efficiency is one of the things that's my main driver. And I think sometimes people can confuse efficiency in people when that's like a quality with impatience that I just want it done and I want it done now, which for me it's not the case. I'm always like, we need to do this in the quickest, most efficient way possible. And sometimes that might be let's get it done today. And sometimes that might mean it's a two-year process. But are we moving things through where we feel like every time we meet about something, we're accomplishing things. We're not having conversations just to have conversations, that there is a goal of what we're doing, and we're achieving that goal, whether it's a small goal, whether it's a big goal, that we're achieving these things to show that we're moving through the process like we should, that we're not getting held up in things that that don't, that don't really matter. Like, for example, oh gosh, it was well over a year ago, about a year and a half ago now, I was having meetings with someone who would be a potential uh business consulting partner. And I work with other people in this regard all the time. And there's other business consultants that growing your team provides outsourced services for for their clients. So this was nothing new for me. But with this particular conversation, we were having meeting after meeting where I'm just like, we are no closer to actually starting to have our first client together because there's so many things where it's like, this is the purpose of meeting today, and then none of those purposes would get done. That I eventually had to say, this relationship is no longer worth me pursuing because I don't see that we're ever going to get to the end of that tunnel. You know, so that efficiency definitely shows up a lot. And I think like that's a lot of how I lead my teams in a way that we some of even with our projects that we work on, some hiring projects, we are able to find that idea candidate right away for our clients. Other times it takes a while because we're looking for something so niche, so specific, and we need to talk to a lot of people and kind of adjust things to find that person for our clients. But it's making sure every conversation that we're doing things, that we are crossing our T's, dotting our I's, getting things done, having productive conversations in order to get there. Um, the other thing that really stood out to me was it it talked about emotions and it talked about, I think three sometimes we see emotions as kind of like, I don't have time for that. Yeah. And everything. And I don't think I ever really saw it that way. But when I thought about it, I am the type of person that says, let's not stress until we have something to stress about. So I realized that I was like, there's no place for those emotions yet, because we don't actually know if those emotions are valid. So let's figure out the details, let's figure out what's going on, and then we can be upset about it, then we can be happy about it, then we can have all these things, but let's not have the emotions right now. Let's do what we can do. Once again, kind of that efficiency. Let's do what we can do, figure out what we're working on, and then we can have the reaction to it. But let's not have reactions that might be worthless because you're gonna find out two hours from now that there was actually nothing to stress about. Everything's working out just fine.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yes. Okay, spoken like a true three, I will say. Um, ones, threes, and fives, there's different groupings. Um, and there's one that has to do with your kind of your go-to conflict style. And uh this grouping is kind of has this energy of show me the data, don't give me the drama. And it kind of exactly what you said. And they they do it in different ways, but it is very much this like, well, we can be upset, but like let's first understand like we're sensible, rational, mature adults. Let's just kind of figure out what's going on first. So I love that, which we can all use, you know, in in our lives, uh regardless of our type. We can use that energy. So I appreciate that. And I was laughing about the efficiency pieces that you were sharing because um threes and sevens sometimes there is some some you know, some confusion around, gosh, I really feel strongly that both of these could be my type. And one of the differences that I got actually from um a client was her, she most identified with the type three at the end. And she said she realized um she does not like brainstorming, whereas I actually have a coffee mug that says brainstorming is my love language. And so it's like, let's whiteboard it, let's vision cast, let's talk about all the possibilities. And while threes are down for a good brainstorm, at some point, kind of like you were saying, it's like, let's get to the point. Like we have an agenda to follow, like we need to get through these things. And so that is one thing that's like if you do not love like pontificating over just all these ideas, you might be a three versus a seven because they want to know, like, where is this going? Does this have a point? Let's get there, if so.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah. It's so interesting that you brought up brainstorming because I was just recently for the Growing Your Team podcast, recorded an interview with Jennifer Lawrence, who works a lot with disc assessments and Colby. And with that, one of the things that came up in my assessments is how brainstorming meetings stress me out. Oh if you put a put me in front of a whiteboard and says, throw us your ideas, let's figure out what we should do, then I'm gonna sit there and be like, okay, we have a blank board. And if you leave it all to me, we're gonna leave here with the blank board because that stresses me out. It's like if other people start throwing in the ideas, I can be like, oh, well, let's here's how we can add to that. Here's why this one might not work and how we need to adjust it to make it so it is feasible. But me coming up with the initial ideas never gonna happen because that's my moment of stress. So I guess that kind of confirms that yes, I'm a three and not a seven because brainstorming is not my love language.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yes, okay. So if you can relate to Jamie then, and you were struggling between that, then you you might be a three. Uh, that is hilarious. So I'm curious because I know that you were talking about um having different guests, and I know you have past episodes talking about the different personality frameworks and models out there. Um, how much do you see personality play into a great candidate versus looking at skills and past experience? Like how does that fit into the priority list?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

So I think it fits very high in the priority list because especially in small businesses, someone can be great at what they do, but if you don't understand how to work with them and if they're not gonna mesh well with the culture and personalities within your office, you're never gonna enjoy having them on the team. It's gonna feel like this constant battle. And sometimes it's not so much of saying, well, we don't want to hire any twos in our organization because twos have this and that doesn't work with us. Sometimes it's just having that awareness and figuring out, well, how do they actually operate in certain situations? Now that I know that there are two, how can I interact with them? But when it comes to personality, like we really build when we when we are building interview guides, it's something about can they do the work? Now can they fit into the organization? So what does that mean? And we look at different things. Like if someone came to me and said, efficiency is really important to me. I want a candidate that's efficient. I'd come back and ask the question well, what does efficiency really look like inside your organization? What does that mean for you? Because how you want someone to be efficient can be completely different than how someone else defines efficiency. All right, now that I know how you define efficiency, we can find candidates that can work in that environment, that can deliver what you're looking for, that can really fit what you're expecting. So it's not that bad. Now, does it mean they're also a three just because you like efficiency? No. But can they work the way you want someone to work when they are efficient? So we really do a lot with that. I say with a lot of the assessments, there are times where I say we're not going to even do assessments during the interview process because you're not going to be able to find out much more than you're going to be able to find out in an interview that's really going to affect your hiring decision. Where you want to do the assessment is if you have all the assessments for your team before that person comes on or during part of their onboarding process. So you understand how to work with them. When we do bring assessments into the hiring process, it's kind of like that one additional thing at the end. And sometimes it's to confirm what we're seeing. So if we're saying, it seems like this person's really struggling with this, I don't get a sense that they can succeed doing these types of things. That assessment come back, might come back and prove exactly, exactly what you're trying to like, trying to figure out that yes, like this is a weakness. I don't I want, I don't know if weakness is really the top word. This is a stressor of theirs. They don't operate in these types of environment. You're able to see that, you're able to confirm it. And then other times we look at it to say, we have candidate A and we have candidate B that we both love. Which one should be higher? And then sometimes we'll look at those assessments to say, all right, candidate, especially in a small business, candidate A is going to be much easier for you to manage because of the way that your personalities work together, where candidate B is going to take a lot more effort for you to manage because of the way your personalities work together. So maybe for this hiring decision, saying you can't decide between the two, everything else is fairly equal. Go with candidate A because they're they're gonna be easier, especially with small businesses when we're learning so much about what it means to manage teams and how to really become a good people manager. Because even if we're good leaders, we're natural-born leaders, we're not good natural-born people managers.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

What a great distinction. Um and I, you know, one of the things that I specifically like about the Enneagram is that it gives you kind of a new language almost to be able to articulate certain things. Like we were talking about efficiency. And it's like, I know that's a thing, or like the brainstorming thing. It's like, I knew this was a thing I didn't love or a stressor, but then it's like, oh, to have it put into a sentence or to make it like a thing or a description can be really helpful for you to say, oh, yes, that really resonates with me. That's what I was trying to say. Or, you know, now that you say it like that, no, I actually don't that I don't resonate with that. So I have found that really helpful because sometimes um I don't know exactly what is bothering me. I just know I'm bothered, or I don't know exactly what I'm feeling, um, which, you know, lots of problems, uh, you know, root causes of that. But um, it's like now that I know more about myself, regardless of the tool I'm using, I'm like, okay, this is a thing. This is a common challenge I have. I'm having that here. It's been articulated for me. I'm gonna be able to communicate that um rather than like, I don't know why it's making me stressed out. I'm just stressed. Um, so I I love having that language.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Um well, one thing I just want to add before we move on from there is like as a three, one of the things that think it came up is our core fears as fear is failure. There's a lot of things that come up as failure, or you know, that we view like successes with our achievements. Like achievements are part of our worth to ourselves. So that's also like really important to know as a leader because let's say I'm bringing somebody in to work with me. I might sit there and say, I need a person, as I always say, like I take calculated risks. I'll take risks, but they're calculated risks. So I know what I'm getting into, I know what the likelihood of failure is, I know what the downside's gonna be if I do fail, how much it's gonna cost me, and things like that. And I know the potential for success. And I've waited outweighed it. I've looked at it and say, the potential for success outweighs the potential for failure, and what's gonna happen if we fail. So knowing that someone who is a real risk taker that is just like, let's just try it, let's just try it, throw in spaghetti at the wall. If we fail, we fail, but at least we tried and we can learn from it, might just go make make me so uncomfortable. And I might look at it if we start to fail at things, if things aren't going right, is this didn't work. It was a complete waste of money. Let's not do this ever again. And I know that's happened in my business. Like I've done certain things where I've tried certain launches at times, and we could probably look at the data and figure out exactly why that launch didn't really work the way I want it to, but because we failed, I'm just like, no, we're not gonna do anything like that ever again. And so I can look at that to say, okay, this is something I need to avoid when I'm going in. Someone who is taking maybe calculated risks works for me, or someone that's gonna follow the plan that I put out there, not someone who's gonna go kind of like against the grain, think out too far outside of the box. However, there might get a be a part of my business where I realize that because I operate that way and because that's where my fear is, I am holding my business back. So I then make the decision that I purposely need to hire somebody who operates in this zone where I fear because that's gonna be how to get my business away from where it is and really get into that growth phase or really get into that scale phase. And so by knowing that this is not a strength of mine, it helps prepare me to really form that position and know what to look for. So I know what to really ask during an interview. I know, okay, if there's someone that has that true entrepreneurial spirit, they're flying by the seed of their plants, pants, they're building the plane as they're flying. Okay, they can do that, but can they also work and make someone feel comfortable? That that process completely terrifies them. So it's like not only do I know I need that, I know I need someone that can work with me while they're doing that, can make me feel okay, can help me see that we're going towards this end result, even though the path to get there is terrifying. So it's like you when you really know what you're good at, what your strengths are, where your fears are, all those things, you can determine who do I need on my team now.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

That's so good. One of the things that we'll do during team workshops is a team map. And then one of the things that we'll reflect on at the end is based on where everybody feels like they are at that point in time. Um, what are the gaps? Um, what types might be missing, meaning what perspectives might be missing? And not that you have to go out and hire a type nine, for example, but it's like there's some energy there, there's a perspective that is missing. And it may not be needed right now, like you said, but is there a time or when might that time be that somebody or more of that energy needs to be brought into the team and just identifying that? And like you said, I love what you're saying about that point in time. So it may not be right now, but in the future, it might be a fit or it might be needed at that time.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yes, exactly. And I love how you just talked about like identifying those gaps, really looking at the team. Because, you know, I'd like to get your opinion on this and what you've seen. But sometimes I've seen people, they're like, I want to hire a type two for this position. Two all the way. If they're not a two, I don't want to talk to them. So I want to know their number before they even apply. And I'm like, oh my gosh, can we stop? Because if you look at it, I'm sure you've kind of seen this when you've done team assessments, is you can have two people doing the exact same job and both performing amazingly at that job, but they're completely different on in terms of their Enneagram number.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah. Yeah, that how that gets a little, I don't want to say maybe dangerous, but it gets a little tricky when people are looking for specific types. Because again, one of the things I love about the Enneagram is the fluidity of we kind of talked about the stress and the growth and just kind of horizontally how you might move, but then you can also move vertically within that type structure, meaning you might be in a really unhealthy place, you might be that kind of average stereotypical present like that type, or you might be in a really big place of growth in your life or that for whatever reason. Um, and you may not at all present or behave like that type, but you're still driven by that. It's just your behaviors have changed. And so it gets really tricky when you're looking for a type two, for example, because it's it's not going to come down to the type so much as where are they on that vertical scale? And people will ask a lot about you know, what types are most compatible, like in relationships? Relationships or, you know, teammates. And the answer is always it depends, which people don't like. Um, but it it's true. It's, you know, to have somebody in that unhealthy range as a two is that's going to be a difficult person versus somebody in a really healthy place as a two, you might be more compatible. Um, they might be a better fit for the team. And so understanding, you know, that taking that into account. And like you said, you could have two people identify with the same type, but how they present um will be very different.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

You just said something that I would love to dig into because you talked about like the unhealthy space. And I know with the uh the document that I was going through looking at the three, like I definitely uh, you know, read through what the like the unhealthy spaces are for the threes. And sometimes I can see, like, yeah, I've seen myself like dip into those for certain scenarios, certain situations. And I feel like this could be something that could impact hiring in a way, because someone might be in that unhealthy space, but they're in that unhealthy space because of the environments that they're in. So going and getting that new opportunity, leaving that job that is toxic, could potentially bring them out of that unhealthy space, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah. What a great um, what a great insight. And yeah, it might be that their manager is kind of bringing out almost like the worst in them, or like the stressors or the workload. Um, and so at the end of the day, you know, I think the thing to reflect on is yes, your behaviors. And again, like how are you presenting that that type? But really, it's like, what is my deep down motive? Like, why am I so stressed? Like, what buttons is this toxic manager, for example, pressing that's causing me to behave in a really stressed out way or in a way that's not serving me. Um and, you know, for example, um, as a type seven, um, I'm striving to feel excited. My actions tend to be motivated by looking for stimulation, the next adventure, something new, and avoiding anything uncomfortable, um, anything that would put um uh limitations on my time or my options. And so a manager who micromanages me and constantly wants to know, you know, where are you at with your sales number this hour? And then calls me again or needs me to fill out, you know, uh whatever paperwork and just constantly questioning and trying to control my time. I'm going to start acting in a way that maybe isn't very becoming of me, that is very stressed out, um, versus a manager that I might flourish under, who in my case would be somebody who has like a more kind of laissez-faire approach and would allow me the space to come up with new ideas, the space to experiment and just have an open mindset about some of that. That would work for me. Um, and this my behavior would look very different, but the same buttons that are like or motivating those buttons to be pushed or motivating me to thrive really is uh the core, like a similar underpinning. Um, it's just am I getting that need met, or is that need being taken away from me and causing me stress? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yes. Yes, I yeah, that totally makes sense that I was thinking about it because I was also thinking about in like the three is like our unhealthy levels. And you know, some of it is, you know, do whatever it takes to kind of preserve the illusion of their superiority is something that I read in there. You know, we're really big on, like you said, the achievers. So I kind of view it as if you're in that situation where you could never please your boss, what are you gonna do as a type three? You're gonna do everything you can to please your boss. And one of the things that also said somewhere in here was the threes can end up being kind of the workaholics. And it's like one of those things where it's like you might be trying to work around the clock because it's the only way you're gonna achieve success, but really it's counterproductive because working around the clock drains your energy. So you're actually reaching your point of diminishing return. So all that extra work that you're doing is not the same quality, it's not the same level as it would be if you're just working healthy business hours.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yes, exactly. Yeah. And like you will look different, but again, it's that like that that kind of image of success and how, you know, how worthy am I? And to have to be led by somebody who allows mistakes to be made and encourages you to take time off, um, can really be of service and helpful in in what that personality type might need. So when it comes to hiring, um, speaking of threes and failures, uh, and this is not just for threes, but what are some mistakes that you see business owners make when it comes to the hiring process?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, so I would say uh some of the mistakes, the first one is just starting at the very beginning, is not actually knowing who it is that you need to hire. Now, we talked a little bit before about like really digging in, okay, what does efficiency mean? What does this mean? But there's so often that we just get stuck on titles or tasks. And especially if you're really new to hiring and those first few hires you're hiring are kind of like the assistants type things. There's so much different work that an assistant can do. If you think like a virtual assistant, when someone's like, I need a virtual assistant, I'm just like, okay, like what do you need? That title is so generic that you can have a virtual assistant that's 100% marketing related. You can have a virtual assistant that's 100% email organization. You could have everything in between. You can have combinations, you can have so many different things for a virtual assistant. And just because someone is good at that title is a really good virtual assistant, they could end up being a complete waste for you. So we need to think past the title. And we also, like I said before, we need to think past the tasks and focus on who do we really need? Who's gonna move the needle for me? So I say one of the worst things that you can do is go out and talk to like your business friends and be like, who did you hire? Who was your first hire? And be like, okay, I need to hire that too. Send me the job description so I can just edit out like the things because it'll be the same. No, like no job description is gonna work for two organizations because your organization's different. How those tasks are gonna be performed are different, who's gonna fit in your culture is different. So while you can use that as a starting place to get your ideas flowing, always make sure you're hiring who you need. Again, just because someone's good at what they do does not mean they're right for you. So focus on who you need. Okay, the next mistake that I see a lot is not knowing how to pull out the right things during an interview. So this can happen like two different ways. One, people ask a lot of hypothetical questions. So it's like, what would you do if? Well, they're gonna tell you what they think uh you want to, what they think you want to hear. They're gonna make up scenarios, doesn't mean they're ever gonna perform that way. So they'll say, obviously, this is how someone should perform if this scenario happens. Or I went out and did a bunch of research. So I know this is a pretty common interview question that is gonna be asked. So I went and researched what the best answer should be, and now I'm just regurgitating what I rehearsed. So instead, you really want to ask questions that dive into how they've performed in similar scenarios in the past. Doesn't need to be exactly the same because maybe they've never worked in your industry before, but you're looking for transferable skills, or maybe they're a new college graduate, so they don't have a whole lot of work experience yet, but we can still ask questions that pull out how do they perform and operate in certain scenarios and certain situations, so we can get a feel about how will they perform when these same situations come up in our organization. So it's really about asking those right interview questions so that way you can get the right answer. And then the other thing when it comes to interview questions is sometimes we have a tendency to lead a candidate directly to the answer that we want. So we do this by sometimes we ask an interview question and then we keep on talking. And it's like, well, I know the candidate's nervous. I'm trying to help them out, I'm trying to give them some examples. And I say, don't do that. You read the question and then you stop talking. And I just want to touch on I said, read the question because you should 100% have your questions pre-prepared. Don't go into an interview and just like wing it because you want to ask all candidates the same questions. You want to be prepared, you want to make sure you're covering the right things. So you ask the question, you shut your mouth. If they ask a clarifying question, of course you can answer it, but don't give them anything until they start answering or they ask something. It's like one of those things that's like they tell you in sales all the time. You ask a question, you say something, you shut your mouth because the first person to speak loses in a sales conversation. It's like like that, because people want to fill the silence. And a lot of times when we're interviewing, we remember what it's like to be on that candidate side. So we want to fill the silence. Stop trying to fill the silence, let them fill the silence because you want to hear what they say. And the other thing with that, sometimes like with leading them to directly what we want to hear, is you'll ask questions that are specific, like specifically direct them to what you want to hear. So, of course, they're going to give you an example that uncovers that shows this. Instead, a lot of times we'll develop questions that are kind of very general, and then we'll ask follow-up questions to narrow down where we want to them to go, what we actually fully want to uncover, because we want to see what do they think when I throw this out there? Do they think the same way that I do? Do they actually know this topic? You know, things like that. And then we can narrow down to the specifics to really build on their answer.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Okay. Um, that is really good. The um asking everybody the same question, um, especially for those personality types to just like to wing things. Uh, I can relate to that, but that that's a great tip. Um, I'm also curious about once the person is hired, um what how how do you or do you work with the with companies on how to help them have a successful onboarding process? And if so, what tips should we keep in mind um when we're bringing somebody new on once they've made it through the interview? Like, what what do we do next?

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yes, yes, of course. Yes, we work with our clients during the onboard processing process as well, because that's often an overlooked thing of hiring. Everyone's like, I made my hiring decision, hiring's done. And it's like technically that part of hiring is done, but you need to get that person up to speed. So, how do we get that person up to speed? Because if you don't have a productive onboarding process, chances are that person's gonna leave. I was actually just speaking with a friend this morning and she went into a new organization. And she said if she didn't know that people didn't personally know people that work there, the onboarding process was kind of a joke and she would have thought it was a scam and she would have left. But because she knew people that work there, she was just like, all right, I know this is a legitimate company. So I stayed and gave them the benefit of the doubt. So that onboarding process can make a huge first impression onto your new hire. So make sure it's a thorough one. Some of the tips that I have to really make it effective is one, remember that even if someone's an expert at what they do, they've never done it for you. So if you look at, for example, bookkeeping, bookkeeping is pretty standardized. You know, the task that they're doing is the same. Now, there might be some little things that are different depending on the industry, depending on your inventory or things like that that make it a little bit different from company to company. But chances are it's the core of it is the same. If someone's an experienced bookkeeper, they're going to be an experienced bookkeeper no matter where they go. But they have no idea what your expectations are. They have no idea how to access your company files. They have no idea who else is on the team and how they're supposed to be working with them. Are they supposed to be working with them? So no matter what, you have to orient that person to your organization. And you have also have to remember that onboarding is like drinking from the fire hose. They don't know anything at first, and you're giving them a lot of information at once. So onboarding and training should be more than a day. In most cases, it's more than a week, because the fact that you have to give them the information in the way that they can actually process the information. You give them too much at once, they're gonna be like, oh my gosh, I am so overwhelmed and I don't remember any of that. So you really need to kind of slow it down and make sure you're giving to them that onboarding plan covers a period of time. That doesn't mean they can't be productive during that time. So when we build onboarding plans with our clients, we say, let's say, for example, someone's a full-time employee 40 hours a week. The training is not going to last 40 hours that first week, but we have to have that person be productive for 40 hours that first week. So, what training can we give them that then leads to them being able to do something on their own? They can't do their full job on their own yet, but here's some things they can do on their own. So it might be a small portion of the overall work that they're going to do. It might be learning and training they can do on their own that's self-guided versus something they have to sit down with another team member. It might mean uh we work with a lot of clients in the interior design space. So sometimes in that first week, it's go access these client files, look at the plans, get a feel for what we do, really get a feel for um the styles we put out there. My for my employees, part of their first week is we have the Growing Your Team podcast. My employees go out and they're required, they can pick whatever episodes they want, but they're required to listen to so many episodes of the podcast. It's something that they can do on their own that's teaching them who we are, what is our brand, what do we talk about, what are we really passionate about? So that way they can learn and understand, but it's not someone sitting down with them full time. So we build up that onboarding process in a way that's manageable for the company and manageable for the team member. And the last tip I'm gonna offer around that is I want everybody to think of their favorite movie, a movie that you've seen multiple times. And chances are the second time you watch that movie, you caught on to things you didn't notice the first time. Nothing changed about that movie. It's the exact same movie you watched the first time. You're not getting a different edited version, you know, the lines aren't changing. It's exactly the same. So remember that when you're training your team members because everything is new at first, they can't absorb everything. They think they did. You thought you saw everything and noticed everything that first time you watched that movie, but you didn't. So sometimes you have to retrain in order for them to absorb everything. So if your new team member is not catching on the way that you want to, retrain. Help them understand the gaps, help them understand why what they did does not match expectations and how to change. So that way they can really see that bigger picture and absorb what they didn't realize that they didn't absorb the first time.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

I love that. Um, I think that goes for all of us, but I also know that there are certain personality types that need a little bit more time to process information, to think about how they can apply it or how they feel about it. Um, instead of, you know, being rushed through the process or like this is it, either you you catch on or you fail. Um, allowing that um to be repeated or to have a more expanded onboarding process rather than jamming it all in, I think can be really helpful for everyone, but especially for those um types that need more of that time.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

So, what are your tips for hiring and onboarding when it comes to Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 39:11

You know, one thing that um we've started doing this year is working with teams to be a small piece of their onboarding process so that they're coming in um with that, with the same language that the rest of the team is using around the Enneagram, but then also coming in and understanding their strengths, um, how they can contribute to the team, what their stressors might be. And I love that teams are willing or leaders are willing to give their new people this space and to invest the time and the money to give them this gift of self-awareness. How can you be successful in this role? And then also, how do I fit into the team? And so uh we'll look at the team map. So we have this person coming in as a you know, type six. What is the majority, what does the rest of their team look like? Um, is are they the only six? What does that mean? What what benefits does that have? What challenges might that that present? Um, or are there a lot of other sixes? And what strengths does that bring? And what challenges might that bring? And just to kind of get an understanding, and and one specific example is um there was a a person who has a lot of type A energy and that kind of like, let's go far, let's go fast, trust my gut instinct, jump in, ask forgiveness later rather than permission. Um, and they had joined a team that takes a little bit more time to process information. Like they're gonna make the pros and cons list. Um, their leader was this personality. Um, a lot of team members were this personality type. And so right away we could kind of talk about that might be frustrating. Um, here's some strengths that you can pull from that though, slow down, you know, not be so impulsive. But then also here are some gifts that you're bringing, you're helping them jump into action. And I think just having that awareness, not just, you know, the skills and the information, which is like such a big part of the role, obviously, but also we are human beings. And so what is your human being experience going to be going into this team, being surrounded by these people? Um, and how can we, you know, help make it um not easy, but how can we help give you the tools to navigate the awareness and the tools to kind of navigate inevitable communication problems, inevitable challenges that are going to come up based on what you know about yourself and the rest of your team?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Yes, I I think that's all like super, super important. And one of the things that, you know, someone else said that I fully, fully, fully believe is you should never have someone do an assessment, any of the assessments during the hiring process. If you don't actually have them for your team, and if you have them for your team, you most definitely need this person to complete that before they come on. Because as you mentioned, it's a lot about how you work with each other. And you don't need to be like, all right, well, we all know how to work with each other, but you're new and I just don't feel like going through that process again. So we're not gonna have you do it. And then it's like, it's like you're almost leaving out a piece of the puzzle. Yeah. A way that they could be successful, a way that you can help them be successful and the team can help them be successful. And that's what we should want is like this really setting people up for success inside our organizations.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that would be um, that would be hard if everyone was making Enneagram jokes and you're like, any of what? You how do you pronounce that? Um earlier this year, we did, or I guess it was last year, it doesn't matter. Earlier on the podcast, we did a series on other personality assessments, and we covered like the Colby and 360 reviews and Myers Briggs. Um, I'm curious, obviously, I'm biased towards the Enneagram, and I know we're talking about the Enneagram, but just out of curiosity, what are some other really um effective personality assessments that you you recommend to your clients or that they've had success with?

SPEAKER_00 43:22

So I recently did the Colby and I felt like that was a really good one to really learn like how the behavior and everything, like how I actually act, especially in like moments of stress. That one was really effective with me lately because I just remember being in a conversation with my husband before I do it, did that assessment. And I was just like, Why aren't you giving me what I'm asking for? And I was like, This is a need of mine, and you're not giving me my you're not meeting this need. And then him being like, but I don't understand like why you need that. It's just kind of ridiculous. And like showing, like through that, being like, This is why I need it. Like, you need to like. This is like especially in a moment of stress. This is how I act, and what's super important to me, and where I'm going to focus on. And in order to help me get out of this moment of stress, like you need you need to help me here. Um, so it really helps like open up that conversation. And that was lately.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

I was gonna just add to the Colby. I found the um like the quick start, I forget what the other one was. I found that to be really helpful and interesting, like how it aligned with your Enneagram type. So there are types that jump into action, and and my Colby results matched up with my grouping on the Enneagram. And then there's other types that need more time to process and think things through. And um, the woman that I had interviewed who teaches the Colby, her type six energy matched up with her Colby kind of start type. And I I forget what that that term is called, but it's interesting, like once you get into these things to see those overlaps, and it just kind of deepens your language and understanding of yourself and of others, like you were saying, to to be able to advocate for yourself and communicate what you need to your partner or your manager or your teammates, whoever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Yes, yes, definitely. One of the things I will say that was if I'm just really looking back, the one that was the most effective to me for me, it was like the first one that I ever took, and it was disc. And the reason why I would say it was super effective was I was a first-time manager at that time, and it was the first thing that I saw that really taught me about quickly like how to communicate with my team. I was able to quickly, and just like the general, the general, general categories, not having to dive deep into and really knowing and remembering everybody's inner working, just the general of are they D, I, C, or S, like I could say this person is this. So when I'm having a conversation, I need to ask them about their weekend and their family before they're gonna want to be a part of that conversation. And and it just allowed me to have that deeper connection where I know other people because of where they were. If I ask them about their family, they're gonna think I'm so intrusive and like, why does she want to know about my family, what I did over the weekends? This is work, let's not do that. Can we just get to the facts and get out of here? So that one was so effective for me as a first-time manager to really learn how to communicate with my team. And once again, not having to go into any of the depth, just at that surface level, like understanding if they fall in this, here's how to start a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Yeah. And I love that because it's like what might be natural to you, probably as a three specifically, it's it may be more that like, let's just jump into it. Um we don't need to talk about how you are. But for some people, they might need that to buy into the conversation and just, you know, not changing your personality, but just kind of tweaking your communication style or leadership style to be um, I guess, more receptive to the different personalities on your team, just having a general rareness is so important. So I love you said that. Um, always ask around defining success because there's so much talk about what does a successful leader look like? What is a successful life? Be your best self. Like, what does that mean? What does success look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 47:25

I think that's a really funny question to be asking an achiever where I know I'm very interested in success. And I feel like because that I am a three, and with that, it is one of those things where it's like you don't really sometimes celebrate your successes so much because you're always looking at what's the next thing I can achieve. So I have spent a lot of time just really kind of thinking about what does success mean for me? What makes me happy? And I've kind of really narrowed it down to for me, like success with when it comes to my overall life, it's like being happy, being able to live the life that I want, which involves travel, being, you know, a really good mom to my girls, and just like feeling kind of that that things are going well. I'm able to do what I want to do. And success for my business is being able to have a revenue level that allows me to provide that. We love to travel. So as long as we're able to, whether it's a camping trip here or there, or going off to Europe, being able to afford the travel that we want to have, to really be able to enjoy that time outside of work. Anything above that is bonus, is great, and I'll keep achieving in my business to strive more and more and keep growing the business. But success to me is being able to support that travel and that lifestyle that's important to my family.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

As a seven who seeks adventure, like I'm I'm feeling that level of success too. I'm feel that. Um, and then I always say, not that anybody in this audience, or probably your audience either, needs another book recommendation, but we love them. Um, and so what is a resource, either business, hiring, life book recommendation that we could add to our list?

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yeah, so my recommendation is Turn the Ship Around by David Marquette. It is about a commander in the Navy that really decided that he needed to focus on creating a bunch of self-leaders within the submarine that he was in charge of. It was a submarine that was known for kind of being people's last stop at the Navy because people were there. It was poorly ran. So they decided that they didn't want to continue anymore. And be after applying these leadership skills, and once again, like I said, like really creating self-leaders within his group, it turned into one of the um one of the ships that had the highest retention rates of soldiers. So people were excited and people were asking, you know, how can I get stationed on this ship? And it was really just showing that even in a even in a scenario where things are so regimented that you can go and create these self-leaders who feel accountable in their role. And if they can do it in the Navy, you can really do it anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Ah, that is a new one. So I'm glad that I asked you about that one. Um, nobody has heard that one on this podcast yet. So on the anyagram and media podcast. So thank you for sharing. Um, this was really fun. It was fun to connect. I know we had a mutual contact. Who actually was our podcast guest at the day of this recording, Jill Schroyer, who is the um Expedition HR owner, um, connected us. So that's just a plug for networking and meeting people, new people. Um, you just never know what might come out of that. So I appreciate Jill's introduction. It's been really fun to know you and learn from you, Jamie. As always, thanks so much for being here today, for hanging out with Jamie and I to learn more about Jamie and the work and the services that she has. Her website is growingyourteam.com, and she has all that information over there depending on where you are in the process. Don't forget she also has her own podcast called the Growing Your Team Podcast, which will have all kinds of free resources and content for helping us all grow and onboard our new team members. And then if you happen to be over on social media, she is growing your team over on Instagram. Drop her a line, say hello, let her know what you're taking away from this episode. Um, thanks again for being here, and we'll see you in the next one. When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm going to invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.