SPEAKER_00 0:01

You're listening to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MBA Podcast. Um, today is going to be, as always, a really fun episode, but I also think a really helpful episode. We're taking it back to the basics with our guest today, who is the creator and Enneagram coach over at Enneagram Explained, which has a plethora of resources in itself. We're joined by Brittany Thomas today. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Hi, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Um I like it could not be a more perfect name that you have for your content. It's um, so we're really going to explain the Enneagram today in this conversation. Um, and I thought, oh my gosh, who would be a better person to help us do this than you, Britney? So thank you for being here. Before we get into it, I do always like to talk a little bit about the person's type. If you would be willing to share where you stand with your dominant Enneagram type right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah. Um, I am a type one. Um, I mistyped very early on as a type six. Um, but I'm a type one. I still have my days where sometimes I wonder actually if I'm a six or if I'm a three. I have a lot of three-ish traits in me. Um so, but core motivation always brings me right back to type one. I can't really do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I was going to ask. So that is one of the more common mistypes that I see or just kind of struggles in the beginning, one versus six, because the behaviors can be very similar and with the three. Um, but you were saying that it was the motive that really helped you clarify anything else that you would offer to anybody who's like, I don't know. I'm a I won them both. Or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Uh usually I kind of like to play a call it desert island with the Anne-Gram motives. And so it's like, would you rather be if we're gonna pair one and six, I'd say, would you rather be right but not secure? Or would you rather be secure, but maybe not like perfectly right? Because I feel like everybody kind of wants to be right. Everybody wants to be secure, but like those top ideals, if you only could have one, which would be a crazy role. But if you could only have one, which one would you choose? And so for me, I love being secure, but I want to stand with what I think is right beyond security, even though I really want to be secure too.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Okay, okay, and that's so helpful. That's such a great um, I love that idea of a desert island uh analogy. What about um, I know that you've also talked about in some of your posts and over on the blog that you also identify with the wing nine versus the two. How do you see that show up for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Uh for me, it's a lot of passiveness and quieting myself usually. So if we're in a group, I hold back. I'm not gonna interrupt the group because I feel like that's wrong. So it ties into my type one, but it's got benign flavor. Um, I won't assert myself very much. So there's a lot of that going on for me, too. Of I know I'm right or I believe I'm right, but I'm not gonna assert myself because I I don't feel like I have the place to. And I also feel like it's not right to assert myself. So it really like straddles both of those a lot. Um, but yeah, the two-wing is growing. I'm growing my two-wing, but it's it's gonna be a little baby like Nemo Finn for a while.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah. Oh, okay. That's that's helpful, and I think also very relatable to the listeners here um who identify with that one. Um, so this is this is like kind of a subjective answer to this question, but you know, finding your type can be really hard. And we're gonna get into some of your tips for helping us do that in just a moment. But I'm curious what your like what you would say to somebody who's like, well, why is it important to narrow it down to just one anyway? Why is why why spend the time to do that?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, so there are a lot of connecting pieces to the Enneagram, right? You have your wing, you have your two connecting lines, um, which sometimes get called growth and stress points. Um, that's all kind of changing in terminologies. But um, and then there's deeper down the Enneagram hole where you can get into subtypes and tri-types and stuff. But I try to always bring people back to the fact that they need to find their one main type because that's gonna be where you can do your most growth work. Um, if you're wanting to use the Enneagram to actually grow as a person, which is the goal, not just to have a silly label for yourself, but that's where you're gonna find it. You can definitely grow in all the other areas, but the most like condensed way to grow would be to find your actual type.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Okay, I love that. What just out of curiosity, what has been, if you're willing to share, one of the biggest changes or ways that you have grown with the help of the Enneagram or what you've learned using the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

One of the biggest ways, and and I hate admitting it because it's such a one thing, but uh, it's empathy for others. Um, before the Enneagram, it was very much like I don't understand why anybody wouldn't do it this way, why they wouldn't feel it this way, why they got offended by what I said, because obviously I'm okay with how I interpret everything and say things, because that's me. Um, and so the Enneagram has made me realize there's eight other different ways of looking at the world or how they might be triggered by words I say, even they're even though the words I'm not saying. Sorry, even though the words I'm saying are not necessarily triggering in themselves to the other eight types, they could be based on their core fears or core wounds.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

What a great point. What a great point. Um, yeah, I and I think for me too, that's been, it's like been helpful to understand myself, but it kind of just picking it backing off what you were saying, just that awareness too of others and your impact on others. Um, even though, like you said, you may not see it that way or or perceive it that way. Um okay, so I want to talk about um, well, actually, first, if you don't mind, um, because you have created like an incredible content resource hub for Enneagram content. Um, how did you get into that? Like, how did that get started?

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Um, so I mean, if we want to go all the way back, I actually dug my heels against the Enneagram when I first heard about it. For whatever reason, I thought it was just a silly fad thing and I didn't want to do it, which is odd because I love personality tests, but for whatever reason, I did not want to get into this one. Uh, thankfully that changed. And I borrowed all the library books, read all through them, started an Enneagram book group, um, had someone talk me into becoming, you know, a certified coach going through the training. Um, but I started my Instagram account right in there because I didn't want to just overload my personal feed with all this Enneagram knowledge. I need a place to put it to not bother all my friends. Um, and so I started there and then I added on the website so that people had a more long format, um, easily savable and findable way to find in Enneagram information easily without um definitely don't want to take away from the books, but without having to dig through books to find information.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I love it. Okay, I other people have said similar things, or I've like come across people in in workshops who like maybe weren't super enthused to be there because of their skepticism with the Enneagram. Like, what was it for you that in the beginning you were like, I'm not sure about this? You know, I've actually tried to figure that out.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

I can't find I can't figure it out. I had friends who were doing it, so I don't think I had any specific reason of why I didn't want to or didn't think it was a big deal. I I keep trying to figure out if there was a reason. And I it's just for some reason didn't dive into it, which is weird because like I said, I would do all the buzz feed tests and stuff, but for whatever reason, and and Myers Briggs and everything, but any grammar's just like, no, not doing it, which is silly, and here I am now.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Well, you're not alone. I've I've heard it too. And sometimes what I'll hear from people is like, well, it's like everybody's talking about it and doing it. So like I don't want to do it.

unknown 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

So I'm like, what does that say about your very much in in my nature for some reason to do that? I think it's because I don't have enough information to make it right for me or authentically true, which sounds a little bit forish, but it it's gotta be actually true for me, not me just going with the crowd, I think. And so that I think was what was holding me off a little bit. It's just like, well, the whole crowd is getting swept away with this. I'm not gonna just instantly jump on that ship.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yes, that's what I hear. It's like, okay, well, let's like calm down about it a little bit. Yeah. Um, okay, so you you've started this platform, it grows, it grows. Um, I'm I'm especially with the kind of the social media aspect, people probably have more access to you. I'm curious before we get into our questions, if there is a like one of the most common questions people are DMing you about or asking you about as you share content.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

I think relationships is a common one. They always want to know who you're most compatible with by your type. And I always have to say that any type is compatible with any type as long as they're um working towards growth and understanding towards each other. And you know, any type is gonna be awful for each other if they're both unhealthy and not wanting to understand each other. So that's a common one. Um the it can you be more than one type is probably the other common question that people get, um, which I think is just because of all the confusion on people interpreting tests not quite accurately or tests being confusing and stuff. So I think that's a common, or they just resonate with a lot of types, right? Like we all kind of resonate with all of them, but so they assume, oh, I'm five types. You're like, no, you're there's one at the center of everything, the rest are just very connected.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Yes. And I want to recommend um you had shared on your Instagram feed, I think it was uh called Enneagram Look-alikes, and you had listed some of the most common mistypes or look-alikes. That was really helpful. And as a seven in the beginning, I identified, or I thought it was a two. But like you're saying, I think I'm probably like a social seven. And so how does subtypes, wings, all those things pr play into that? Um, I would definitely recommend I'll have to link that exact post because I thought, oh, this is really helpful. What'd you say?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Oh, it's it's probably just a little ways down there. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

I I was looking earlier, but it was really helpful. So we'll have to link that. But that is so true. So let's let's take it back to the beginning if if we can. And when somebody is starting their Enneagram journey, the first place that most people want to start with is a test. And we can talk about that in just a second. But how do you recommend people start to uncover their dominant Enneagram type?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

So I I have a love-hate relationship with the test. Yeah. Um, like I think most Enneagram coaches do. Um I actually do tend to tell people to start with a test, um, but with a huge disclosure of not just taking the test answer as the definitive type that you are. Um, because unfortunately the tests are, you know, about we all say different things, but I usually say about 70% accurate at best. And so, you know, that means out of 10 people, three of them are mistyped from a test every single time. So um I tell them to take the test, but look at the top three to five results. Don't just go for that number one slot, go for three to five. Um, five if like all your results are like 60% and it's just very vague. Three if you're not if it's like 98%, 80%, and you know, 80%. So take those three types and then go and look at those types, core motivations, and really dig in and ask yourself, you know, why do I like a clean house? Why do I like there to be control in situations? Why do I like to go on adventures? And just probably you'll need to ask why again. Like, I like a clean house because it's nice. And people should see, you know, I have to go beyond that. I can't go just say, well, it's a nice thing to have. I need to keep asking, well, why is it a nice thing to have? Why do I need to have order? Why do I want people to see a clean house? Yeah. And so it's taking a few more whys before you actually get down to your core motivation.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And do you are there any common like test-taking mistakes that you hear about or see?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Uh the most common one would probably be people take the test and answer based on what they think they should do or what they think society would expect them to do, right? This is gonna be, you want to do the test based on how we call it, if the world didn't exist, what would be your ideal way of answering this test, right? Like nobody's gonna judge you if you, you know, want to spend all your time at your house, or you know, you gotta ignore the fact that we do change your traits a little bit in behavior because of society or how they expect us to be. But the test, we want to find out how you would like to be if the society didn't matter. It does, but if it didn't.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Right, right, right, right. Um, you know, I'm curious too, like what some of your um recommended tests or assessment are assessments are. Um, because people I and even I recently took um the ready, the Enneagram Institute one again, just because it had been a while. And I'm like, you know, I people are asking a lot of questions. And so let me just go through this again. And I even struggled sometimes because I'm like, oh, am I this type or this type? Um, or I was this way. And I I get all of that. Um so you know, I I I get the the struggle. Um, what what do you recommend? Or what are some of the the tests or assessments that you recommend people start with?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I often um recommend truities. Um they are usually a pretty good one to take. Um, my favorite is actually your Enneagram coaches, but I usually have to throw out the disclosure that the test itself isn't Christian, but they kind of Christianize the results. Um if you're just going for an answer, it doesn't really matter. You can ignore all the Christianese. But I like it because they run you through all the questions and then um, you know, on the back end, they take your top two highest scores and they kind of give you these three deathmatch questions between those two types at the very end. And so they're like, okay, well, she scored highest in six and one, but now let's pair those questions and make her try and choose between six and one over and over again. Um, so I kind of like that because it kind of tries to weed out it's not just one type instantly. They're like, well, these are two very high options. Let's see. Um, it's still just as prone to being flawed as all the other tests, but I find it helps a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

I love that. Yeah, that's something I don't think that I have seen in many of the other assessments. So that is that's a great option too. And and maybe take a few, especially uh, you know, with the free ones. Um, you might as you know, might as well kind of dig into it a little bit. Um what is there anything else that we should know or think about or dig into in the beginning? So we've taken the assessment, we've looked at descriptions, anything else um to help us narrow down our type?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Well, yeah, so descriptions are good. They're also very biased and they tend to skew towards the stereotype versions. Um, so they're helpful, but I I also want to make sure people understand that if you don't resonate with the description of your type, that doesn't necessarily mean you're not that type. Um, because there's definitely plenty of aspects of type one that I don't resonate with. I resonate with a lot of it, but there's definitely something that I'm like, that's so not me. I'm not like that. I'm not a procrastinator typically. Um so descriptions are good, but not the end all, just like Tess. Um, core motivations are what I always push people to. Um, my my followers even pick up on that when I'm answering questions. They're like, Aren't you tired of saying core motivations? I'm like, I am, but I know people are coming in all the time, new to the Ennegram, and they don't realize. And it's always a good reminder, too, because like I said, even I feel like sometimes I'm like, oh, like I thought I was a one, but I'm really struggling with this kind of like three-ish aspect. Maybe I'm a three, and I'll kind of go off the rails. And I have to come back and be like, no, core ones motivation is still my utmost important thing. Um, and so even for you know, Enneagram coaches, even going back to the core motivations is always super key.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yeah, I and you're right, at the end of the day, like regardless of how you behave, the thing that makes a one-on-one or a seven to seven is that core motive. Um and so uh yeah, it's a great to keep in mind. And you know, we gotta we gotta remind ourselves. Um, I'm sure you are probably tired of saying it, but uh that's it. That's the answer. Um another another question that uh we uh that's okay. Sometimes we have Amazon doorbells, we have babies on the podcast, we have pets. So that was mine. Um what is a question that I get a lot is can your type change? Um, what do you say to that question?

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah, you're you're right. That is a question I get a lot. Um I think all coaches probably get it a lot. So your type can't change. Um, it's usually set really young in life and you're kind of just stuck with it. Um, ideally stuck with growing it into the healthier version of your type, but you are stuck with your type. Um, but I do add that people feel like their types will change. Um, and sometimes that's based on taking a test when you're stressed, and then you take it when you're healthy, and the test is like, well, now you're a different number, but it's really well, now you're just healthy, you're out of the stress season. And so your traits look different, which tests are mainly based on traits, which is why they're inaccurate. Um for some reason we have yet to decide how to make a core motivation test. Um, but someday we'll get there. Um so taking a test and getting different results just because it's based on your traits is a common reason that people think they're suddenly a different type. Um, as I alluded to, being in stress and not then not being in stress, or vice versa, um, is another reason people feel like they mistyped. Because you know, if I was really, really stressed, I might look like a four. But if I come out of that season, then I'm gonna look like a one. And if I don't check in on that core motivation, I could totally think my type changed, even though it actually has always stayed one. It's just the traits or behaviors kind of flow into a different type when you're really, really stressed. Um, and then let's see, the other one I usually point people to is trauma. So we all experience trauma, but typically like the capital T traumas, the really big things that are gonna mess you up. Um, those ones can definitely cause people to either go to their stress number and take on some of those traits, or it can also sometimes, just as a coping mechanism, you'll take on the traits of a different type that might not even be connected to you to try and protect yourself. So um, like type six, type eight, I see a lot because type six is their very worst case scenario, protect themselves from all the bad things, which of course you would do after trauma. Type eight is, you know, building such a strong defense so that they can't get hurt ever again. Um, there's, you know, you can take on any of the traits, but those are some very common ones. And so you don't have to be connected to those types to try and protect yourself. When you need to protect yourself, you're gonna use whatever traits you need to. But if you're using them so much because you've been through trauma, you can start looking like that type, even though somewhere deep down the bottom is actually your core motivation from your actual type. It's just it's being buried right now because you need to build up so many shields and barriers right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

I'm so glad you said that. Um, I there made me think of a conversation that I had um a few weeks ago with um Jessica Denise Dixon. Are you familiar with her? We had a conversation around what does race have to do with the any. And she was kind of saying similar things like your past, culture, race, obviously, gender, like all these things kind of play into how it's presented. And going back to the point that you made is why you really have to be careful with not just the test, but the description, because there's usually just a stereotypical description that you may or may not identify with. What would you add? I think you've kind of addressed it a little bit. Anything else you would add to that question?

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Yeah, I think, especially if we're going by ages, right? Like I think if I had looked at myself in college during the, you know, the hard days where social groups are switching and changing and I've got stress and stuff like that. There's so many reasons why I might have tested as a six. Um, even though if I had dug deep enough, I would have still realized that my core motivation is a one. But my traits were coming out so strongly, I think, as a six that it would have been easy to just dismiss it and assume I was a six. Um, so some of that I think is in your 20s, it's a pretty transitional um finding yourself kind of time, anyways. And so it's very easy to get wrapped up in the traits or the stress of college or what, or you know, new to the workforce, any of those things are going to really kind of affect your traits and behaviors. Um, and so again, core motivations is where you need to go. Um and then, like we kind of hinted about, um, you were just mentioning your family and stuff, that's going to influence you. So my dad is probably a six, um, and he has ingrained all of that into me. And so that's why I have so many six traits. Like if I'm driving the car, my dad's voice is in my head of like they could be falling out of trees. Watch out for this car, watch out for that car. And it's ingrained in me since childhood. And so I look quite a bit like my dad, but my motivations are very much a type one and not his.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

What a great point. I I um that absolutely, we all have our parents' voice. And so it's just like, yeah, what is that? What a great point. Um the other one, and it's like kind of along the same lines. I'm just again curious. If you don't have anything to add, that's fine. If you do, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Um, another one that I get a lot is well, at work, um, I'm maybe this type, but at home, I'm a different type.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Um, yes. So that is very common to feel like you're one type at work and one type at home. There are, I think, a few reasons why that could be. One is stress. Again, like I've talked about um either stress is workful or home is work. Uh, sorry. Work. Either work is stressful or home is stressful. And so you take on some of your stress traits in that more stress environment. But then when you get out of it, you can relax and be more your your true self. Um, but another is usually like wings. Like I find sometimes, especially people who have more balanced wings, like I might use my nine-wing more um in social environments and with my husband. But I might pull more of the two when I'm in certain situations that, you know, relationships have higher, not a higher priority. My relationship with my husband is quite high, but the like social aspect of expecting you to be giving and loving and stuff, if that's more heightened, like say at church, the two wings are gonna come out a little bit more. And so I'll use one wing here and one wing there. And so sometimes people will feel that mine, my wings are pretty mellow, I think, compared to most. Um, but if you have really strong wings, those are gonna really start pulling you one way or the other in different environments.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

That's a great thing to think about too. Um, yeah, that is. And I'm like, well, you know, I I get it. Like hopefully we we are probably tailoring our behavior a little bit. Um, uh, but that those are some good things to think about. Um, another question that somebody had asked that you had answered um in that series was like, what's the best type? And sometime a version of that question I will get is like, what's the best type for a leadership position? Or what's the best type for sales? Um, what do you how do you typically respond to those type of questions?

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yes, everybody wants to know what the best type is. Um and of course, everybody will chime in and usually say it's their type, or if they really don't like their type, they'll say it's not them. Um yes. So unfortunately, there's no best type, or probably fortunately, there's no best type. Um that said, the best types are going to be those who are doing their growth work and working to be their healthiest version of their type. Um, because you know, a type eight can be a great boss or an awful boss, depending on their level of health. Or type three can be a great um, you know, great in sales, but they could be awful and everybody hates them at work if they're unhealthy. Um, same with, you know, type twos is moms or any, any of I mean, those are very stereotypes, but any type is gonna be good in what they do if they're working towards, you know, growth, work, and health and being the best version of their type. Um, but you're off also gonna be, you know, not great to be with if you're not doing your growth work and you're on the unhealthy side of things. And so um yeah, there's no best type. In terms of work, I always try and uh highlight that any type is gonna be a great boss if if they're you know being healthy and doing their growth work and everything, and understanding that not everybody is like them. Um, but also we have to understand that our expectations of certain things are not the best or what's needed, which is totally not a one thing to say. Uh very like higher right, not my right. Um and so if your boss is a four, you might not think that's the best type of boss to have, but it might be the best type of boss that is needed for that company, or or I mean, that's where you are. So just be okay with accepting a boss that isn't as stereotypical as you would expect. Or um, you know, my husband is a five, and a lot of his jobs have not been your stereotypical five job. And so having to have people realize like he's still good at his job, he's just not social like your last boss was, or something like that. And so we have to kind of tamper our expectations of what people should be because all nine types are great. We just aren't always used to them being in certain roles.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

You know, um, I listened to a podcast by um it was, I think it was Mario Socora, Awareness to Action Enneagram. And he was talking about um something similar to what you said, where he was saying we shouldn't necessarily hire, we shouldn't hire based on type. Um, the point of the Enneagram is to use it after that person has been hired to understand how to have a better relationship with them, not necessarily be like, oh, well, they're a five, they're not good with people. So don't put them in this role or whatever, whatever. It's it's then more about, okay, how do I use what I know to help either help them succeed if I'm leading them or um if they're my boss, like how can I get along with them better based on my type and their type, rather than saying this job is for this type or that type of thing. And I just thought, well, that's you know, we probably know that subconsciously, but the way he said it um just kind of reminded me about what you were talking with. I thought that was really a great point.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yeah. Yeah, the discrimination based on type. I mean, I don't know if we're quite there in the workforce where people are interviewing you and asking for your Ennegram type. Yeah. Maybe, but um, but yeah, that that's something I think that keeps a lot of people, and even besides Enneagram, right? Like I feel like I can get passed over for jobs a lot because I'm an introvert.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

And oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Sometimes I get it, like what you need might be a very pushy salesperson or something. But sometimes it feels like, okay, just because I'm an introvert, you hired the extrovert. That's not really fair. So it's kind of like that with the Enneagram. Like, like you said, we shouldn't be hiring people based on their type. Um, but I definitely think it's a good thing to know right out of the gate so that everybody can try to relate and connect with everybody better. It's definitely great for relationships like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah. You know, that just made me think of an off-the-wall question. Um, have there been other types of personality assessments or frameworks that you have used that have been really helpful or just have complemented what you know about yourself with the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 32:02

I I tend to usually just focus um Enneagram. And then I do stay somewhat aware of Myers Briggs. Um, that's like the oldest one. And I know there's a little bit of debate about it now. I haven't actually delved too much into the debate world, but I still think, especially if you're going for the cognitive function side of Myers Briggs, like deeper down, it's kind of like the equivalent of Ennegram tests versus Enneagram motivations. Like you have like the 16 personality types, it's more trait-based, but you really want to get down to the cognitive for Myers Briggs, which is a whole nother podcast with somebody else who's an expert in Myers Briggs. But I find it helps me a lot because I'm an introvert and so is my husband, but we're also very different. And so um we're actually only a letter off in terms of Myers Briggs. Um I'm an ISTJ and he's an INTJ, but it can be worlds different. And so it's really helped me understand that I see the trees and he sees the forest, which is also a very type one, type five difference. Yeah, but it really helps me explain like, oh, like this is why he's not focusing on these nitty gritty details. He's thinking big chick, pig, big picture further down. And I'm like, yeah, further down is great, but we need to fix these little areas right here. And so that's helped with our communication a little bit of understanding we not only have different motivations, but we also have different ways of actually thinking about things.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Okay, and that actually makes me think of another question. Um, and I think you're doing a series on it right now around like how to be in a relationship with a certain type. But I think that this is people are always interested in relationships. I think this also could apply to relationships at work and your coworker relationships. Um, what are some of those benefits of knowing not just your type, but someone else's type? How can it help that relationship?

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Knowing somebody else's type, one of the biggest things I like to point out is it's going to help you not trigger their winding message or their core fear or or dismissing their core desire, right? Like if my husband didn't realize that mistakes are actually a huge deal to me, you know, I mistakes are so much bigger to me than any other type. And so if he was just dismissing like that's it's fine, like it's just a mistake, get over it. That would be so wounding and hurtful to me as a one. And so, like, he knows, you know, certain words might trigger me, certain, you know, things like that, him even just realizing that I like things to be orderly and right. And thankfully he's a pretty orderly and clean guy, too. But um, and so we can like cater towards some of it. And I'm not saying cater to an unhealthy level. If you have, you know, my husband's a five. I know he needs recharge time. Recharge, I know that my husband is a five, needs recharge time. But if I cater to it to the extreme where I'm letting him stay in his room for 23 hours a day, then that's not loving either anymore. And so there is a balance of catering towards other people. And then, you know, hopefully they are catering back to you of what you need so that you're both trying to understand that their core fear is just as scary as your core fear, even though you might not get it at all. And it's not a big deal to you. It's just as hurtful or harmful to them as yours is.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

That's so good. Um, something else you just said was um made me think of like the growth and how growth looks different, and how like supporting somebody, you know, to have alone time could be very helpful. And then for others, it's like, okay, that's not supportive anymore. And just like knowing, you know, what looks like growth for an eight might look the opposite for a two or vice versa, or whatever. So understanding that too. Yeah. Um are there any other common questions that you get a lot? I think that was all that was on my list.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Um, any other um, oh, okay. So the other one is is okay, so there's many iterations. The common question would be can I be a seven wing three or yes, eight wing five, right? Um and so I think the reason people end up with a conclusion that they have a wing that is actually impossible, like a seven wing three, is because of the test. I think people assume the top result is your type and the next one must be your wing. And unfortunately, that's not how it works. And I feel like it's not really the test's fault for not disclosing that, but I kind of wish they did maybe. Um, and so your second type is very rarely your wing, unless you have an extremely strong wing. Um, my my nine wing is actually like bottom two-thirds of my test results. It's not very high. Um, same like my husband, he was wingless for a while. Um we're we're starting to notice he's probably got a six wing, but his wings are the last two choices on his test results. And so it's not based on your test result. Uh, your wings are going to be the two numbers on on either side of your type. So if you look at the picture of the circle, it's the one below and above your type. Your wings have to be close enough to help you fly. They got to be attached to you a little bit. So that I think, like I said, the the test results, I think, are why people get the misconception that they're this impossible wing number. Um, but if you want to find your wing number, I actually think it's better to first find your main type, obviously, and then look at those two options on either side of you. And this is going to go a little bit deeper, but technically you have both wings. They're they're both there, they're both attached. But most people find they tend to use one a little bit more than the other. Um, some people have balanced wings and they use both, or like I said, they'll use one at work and one at home. And then there's a few people who don't really like their wings, they are so like small, they're just not really using them much, like my husband. And so if you look at both of those numbers, you can usually find your wing or wings, which one you use more based on looking at their traits. Um, I know it's a little bit debated, but I think if you look at the motives, you can usually find that too. And so for me, there's a lot of nine traits that I recognize in myself. But I also recognize that I want to be right with the smidgen of being at peace and harmony harmonious with other people. Um, I, you know, my two-wing wanting to be lovable and wanted is nice, but it's not as important to me as wanting to be at peace. And so my nine-wing is much stronger. Two is like it's growing, but it's not quite there. And so usually you can figure out your wing just by looking into the other numbers, just kind of like looking into the core motivation of your type. You can usually you could look at a list of nine motivations and find your type that way too. You don't have to test.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah. Um, I'm glad you said that one, Brittany, because that is a very common one too, or like they'll state, I am, yeah, this. Um, it's like, well, you know, and that's okay. Uh, you know, we're we're all learning, um, but now we know. Um, the other question that almost forgot to ask you, and I know you actually did a survey with your audience, but a question that I get a lot is what is the most common Enneagram type like in the world or you know, wherever? And then what is like the least common type? So I know you have your own results, but is there anything I would love to hear those? And then anything, any other thoughts or observations that you have um about about that?

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah, let's see. So I haven't well, okay. I I've done a poll based on my followers to see who was the most common, right? And so whether that's based on the types that are most on Instagram or the types that like my content the most, for whatever reason, I had a lot of um ones, twos, and nines were my highest. But again, ones, twos, and nines are also the most likely to respond to a poll. So it's very skewed on if those are actually the most popular type. I don't actually think they are, um, especially ones. Like I rarely meet ones in real life. I don't know why. Um, I also think generationally, like millennials and Gen X, Gen Z, I don't think we produced a lot of ones in that kind of environment. So I think I'm a little bit of a lonefish there. Uh so I feel like that's the problem. I know there have been studies and people who have posted that, you know, this is the most rare type, this is the most common type. And I feel like we really just can't actually have a good metric for that. Like they are polling based on just their internet following, but not doing real people in real life who might not be on the internet at all. Um, I know lots of fours who take hiatuses. And so when I did my poll, half of them responded weeks later that they would have, but they weren't on the internet at that point. And so there's, or you know, threes and sevens are often busy doing things out in the real world and they don't see my poll when it's posted. And so there's just so many variations that are messing up and skewing the polls that I don't think we can really say this is definitely the most popular type or uncommon and by location too. Like when I lived in Seattle, fours were everywhere. But if you go to other parts of the country, fours are really, really rare. And so I think some of that too, just demographically is going to skew your results. And so, or or you know, like you might get the most common type for, you know, the 20 to 40 age bracket, right? But what about the grandmas who know their type? Maybe it's very rare, I think, if a grandma knows their type, but if she knew her type but wasn't having any access to your poll, right? You're missing whole generations of people, even if they didn't know your type their type, they have a type. They're just not polling either. And so I feel like we can't really say which one's the most common or least common. Unfortunately, it might be fun too, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

And that's one of those questions too, where it's like, well, regardless of the answer, like I don't know how useful it is. It is just more kind of for fun. Um, so just curious where where you were on that. Um, you know, the other thing I want to get into as we start to kind of wrap this up is um that I do think is important. I just want to want to touch on it. Um are the different groupings because we were just kind of talking about um the benefits of understanding your core type and then the types that you touch. But then there's also um the group various groups on the Enneagram that can also give you some insight. So um I'm I'm wondering um if you could, I'm I'm like, oh I don't know that we have time for all of them, but is there a favorite grouping that has been really helpful to you that we could just I could ask you a few questions about?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yeah. Um okay. So first, because I totally forgot during the test section. One of my other favorite tests is your test. The uh what is it like two questions? Oh, the two questions. Yeah. That's actually another favorite of mine to send to people just because it's got such a different way of testing people. It's not asking them if they like to go to parties or stay home. It's it's touching on those groupings and and stances and stuff. So I I like sending people to your test too. Oh on that note, I feel like I have two favorites. Um I love share them, share them both. I like the Hornivian or um the more commonly known as stances. Um I love that group because there's a lot, there's just a whole bunch to unpack with that one. And then um I also like the harmonic groups. Um, but in terms of um the stances, they are how people try to get what they need and not in the sense of like I really want to raise, so this is what I'm gonna do, although it definitely could come into play. Um, but usually it's a deeper rate, uh deeper related to your like your core. And so I feel like this is hard to do without an image for everybody, but yeah, no, you're doing great. Type um, type ones, two, sixes are all going to be usually they're called compliant or dutiful. And I know most of us do not like that term, but basically it just means we are trying to um work with others in terms of what is expected. And so I follow rules and you know, try to do what people are hoping I do so that I gain um autonomy or freedom from being criticized, right? If I follow the rules, nobody's gonna complain to me. Uh type twos are doing similar, although more on the relationship side of things. They're helping others and such to gain acceptance for who they are or attention for who they are, because they're putting all this focus and effort on what everybody else needs, but they have needs too. They would actually really like people to care about them. And so that's where they're trying to earn their way in. Um, and then sixes are a little bit different, but they're still like what needs to be done? What do I need to be prepared for? What do I need to look out for in terms of gaining security from their fears, from what might be threatening them? And so uh that kind of so autonomy, um, attention or acceptance, and um security. Those are the three main things that you'll find in each of the stances that they're looking for. Um, but I know people are gonna want to know the other numbers. So I will guess.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I was like, if you're if you have time, we I have time because they are absolutely gonna want to know. Like, wait a minute, what's mine?

SPEAKER_01 47:11

I hate it when they leave out your one time like, gee, thanks. Yeah. Um, so okay. Next we have the withdrawn group, um, which is probably not too big of a surprise for people to find out that that's four, five, and nine, but they're withdrawing to get, like I said, autonomy, attention or acceptance, and security. So nines withdraw and not always physically. Sometimes it's just in their in their brains and they're just not going to be vocal about things. But they're withdrawing to get, again, like I said, um, autonomy, but it's really, it's just that like replace autonomy with freedom, and it's much easier. Freedom from conflict and anything that's going to ruin their peace and harmony. So they withdraw so that they're not, you know, causing any waves. Type four withdraws, and there I find the trickiest one to explain to, and I always have complaints when I do a short version, but they withdraw, not necessarily because they want attention. Like, I think maybe deep down subconsciously might be there, but they're not like, I'm not withdrawing so that you come rescue me. They're often withdrawing so that they can like recalibrate, recheck in with themselves to see like what is their authentic feelings, what is their deep, true, like how they believe and feel about things, so that when they go back into the world, they can be accepted for who they actually truly are because they found it now. Um, and so it's that acceptance, attention is a trigger word for them too. They don't necessarily want the attention, but they do want to be accepted for who they are, which is the withdrawing to find who they are. And then fives withdraw to get security from, you know, the fears of the world and stuff. So they'll withdraw typically into their brain, but a lot of times too, you know, to their bedroom, so that they don't feel overwhelmed by all these, um, the fear of being overwhelmed by emotions and um expectations and stuff like that. And so they'll withdraw.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Uh, let's see. Okay. That was good. I will just say like the four explanation was really helpful. I liked how you explained that one.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yeah, uh, that is all due to the fours who keep complaining and asking me about it. So yeah, I I try to like tweak every time I talk about it, I have to like add a little extra line of it. But yes, it's it's getting there. Um, and then we have our three, seven, and eights, which are in the assertive group. And so they are asserting themselves to get what they want, or um, sometimes just plowing despite people to get what they want. Like they're not even, they're not doing it to be mean. They're not like, you know, shoving people to the side, but they're just like, I'm on a mission, this is what I'm needing. So threes are asserting themselves to get value and recognition, but um, like I said, it's that attention acceptance for who they are. Um sevens. Okay, sevens, and you can totally tell me if I'm wrong. Um, sevens are asserting themselves to get security from fear. And I feel like that can be hard for sevens because you guys are so focused on the bright, the shiny, the positive. And so sometimes they're like, I'm not afraid of anything, but it's that fear of being deprived of things, right? So you're gonna assert yourself so that you don't have to be deprived, you can go and get it. Um, or or being trapped in pain. Like you're just gonna assert yourself and go. Um uh there is fear, but you're constantly moving away from it. So it doesn't feel like you have it.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

I hope. I'm like, I think that's right.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Yeah, I I yeah, it's like feeling like trapped or um like in a oh my gosh, I might get trapped in this uncomfortable conversation. So let me just like plow through and just it may seem like I don't care, but it's like, oh, I don't want to get get caught up in this. Um it's just like one example. And I that is interesting when I first was learning about the Enneagram, and this happens in all different pieces. It's like, oh, I don't know. Like, am I really fearful or am I looking for security? And the more that like I dig in, the more that I learn, the more that I self-reflect, I'm like, oh my gosh, this could not be more true. This is so interesting. And then it gives you language to like explain to your partner, explain to your boss um that you didn't even realize like was happening. And so it's just like years into learning about the Enneagram, like this kind of stuff still happens for me. So um, yeah, I feel that.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Okay, sorry, sorry. No, it's fine. Uh, and AIDS, I didn't forget about you. Uh, AIDS are gonna assert themselves to get autonomy from control, right? Like if they are plowing ahead, then nobody's going to control them or harm them or manipulate them. They're going to just assert what they need, get it, and they don't have to worry about being vulnerable because they're being strong and they don't have to rely on other people or or look weak, and people might take advantage of them. And so those are the stances. There's like so much more you could unpack with that. There's so many little aspects that I feel like they're actually almost like separate groups, but they're they're the same triangles of people. Um, but there's just a ton in the stances.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

I have found that to be really helpful um in like kind of like either or like in well, and sometimes it's hard because it's like, am I a one or a six? Well, gosh, they're both in that same group. But sometimes it's like, you know, am I a am I a one or a four? Or am I a, you know, a three or a two? And just like having some of that additional information can help clarify. Um maybe we don't go through it by each type, but I would love to hear your um just kind of the the harmonic um groupings, because um that is also I think really helpful, especially in team environments. What we'll do like at the end of our workshops is not just look at the types, but we'll take a look at some of these groupings. And it's like, oh wow, we have a lot of people in this like three, seven, eight group. What does that mean? What are the strengths and like where might we need to like bring in some other energy? Um, and same thing with the harmonic triads. Um, so I'd love just to go through them really quick though. I do just want to add, um, you would mention that two question tests that I have. I actually stole it, not stole it, but I took it from the um wisdom of the Enneagram book by uh Risa Win Hudson. They have that in there. And it is what they did is what Britney was talking about, is like they took here's the stances that we just went through, and then here's these others, pick one from each group, overlap it, and it usually gives you a pretty close like one or two types that you can dig into. And it's kind of two questions. They're paragraph answers, but um, so that's what she's talking about. And I I love that from them. Like I love how they just like simplified it. And so that could be another clue. Okay, so let's talk about harmonic groups. What the heck are they? What what are we what are we talking about here?

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Uh, so harmonic groups are how you deal with conflict um or disappointment. So, like you said, it's very helpful to know about in the workforce. I also really like to highlight the fact that it's very helpful in marriages or any relationship really, but especially marriage, because conflict is going to happen when you're married. Um, so those two groupings especially find harmonic groups to be very helpful to understand, especially if you're in one group and your workforce is in the other or your husband is in the other, right? It's super helpful to know that they handle conflict very differently from you. So um the the short version, uh, one, three, fives are in the competency group, means we shove our feelings down and we focus on the solution because we need to solve this conflict problem and get it done. Then we've got, let's see, four, six, and eight are in the reactive group or emotional intensity group or intense group. There's a few names because not everybody loves that name. But I go with reactive because they're reacting emotionally to the situation. Um, so it's very much like this is a big deal to me. Why is it not a big deal to you? Why are you just trying to solve the problem? Like we need to talk about how we're feeling. So those groups, you can see how, like, if you're just trying to solve the problem, the reactive group is not loving that because they feel like you don't care about them now. You're like, no, I do. We're solving the so you're trying to solve this conflict in different ways. And if you don't realize that, you feel like they're totally dismissing you and they don't care. And then let's see, two, nine, and seven, they are in the positive outlook group, and so they're they're like the the silver lining in the cloud that is hopeful that this conflict it'll solve itself. There's a reason for it. Look at how I am in this conflict. I'm doing good things. It so sometimes that sounds bad, right? It sounds like they're not actually solving the problem. But all three of those I find actually are needed. We need to be real about our feelings, we need to hunker down and find the solution, but we also need to not get so down in the dumps that we think this thing will never get solved. So we need the positive outlook too to realize it's a big deal, but it's gonna be okay. Like we're all going to get through this. And so, yes, you're camped in one of those, but we need all three. And we also have to realize that the way we default to might make others feel totally dismissed or uncared for.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Yes, yes. And I like these groupings because it's like even if you don't know someone's Enneagram type, when you just learn about the groups, um, that's a lot like learning three groups is way easier than like learning the ins and outs of nine types. So it's like even if you have a client in front of you or your team took the Enneagram, but the other team didn't. And so you have no idea, it's like, oh, I'm I'm getting this problem, this person is a problem solver, or this person needs like me to match their intensity in this moment, or you know, whatever. Um, it's like you don't need to know. I mean, eventually it would be helpful to know, but it's like in that moment, you can pick up kind of clues or wow, they're jumping into action. Um, or wow, they need time to process, uh, you know, talking about the stances in those groups. And I just find them just to be so helpful. Um, is there anything specific, like a specific situation or just a common way that you have used those um, you know, in real life in some way? And I know you mentioned uh with your husband potentially anything else that comes up um as using the either group in real life.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

Sorry, can you repeat that again? I've got internet problems apparently.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

Oh yeah, no, that's okay. Um, I I was just wondering like like how you, if there has been a specific time where you have like used the grouping without maybe knowing someone's Enneagram type. Um, or maybe you do, but just remembering one of these two groups um that like helped you in a real life situation, if anything comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Um, let's see. There have definitely been conflicts with friends, you know, like we'll be in an argument over something, right? And typically I think I actually know their type, but when it comes to conflict, I just naturally default to those harmonic groups because that's what it's focusing on. And so that is helpful for me. Because I'll more often than not, I'll be in an argument with a more feeling type person because I'm not a feeler. And so we can definitely get our wires crossed. And so knowing that like they want me to share my feelings, even though I think it's totally pointless and there's no purpose in it. And so having explained that, like, no, what you said did hurt me, I'm just trying to get through this. So I don't really want to sit with the feelings about it, especially if it's like I'm angry, because as a one, I feel like being angry and expressing anger is a bad thing, even though I mean, like, deep down and any realm-wise, I know it's not, but I feel like that's not a right thing to do. You shouldn't be angry at people. And so having to keep that in mind while I'm, you know, in an argument with somebody, or usually after an argument and kind of like recalibrating everything, um, has been very helpful. Um, I also use it a lot with my children, which is a heated debate on if you can type your children. I generally say no, you cannot type your children because you can't actually type anybody because you don't know their core motivations. But it is often pretty easy to see what grouping your children might be. I find um the dependent stance, the like one, two, sixes, feel harder for me to type. Um, but it was very easy to see that like my oldest is definitely in the assertive type. Um, and I also tend to tell people don't try and type your two-year-old, because all two-year-olds look like they are innate. Like terrible twos, just have that feeling. Yeah. But but that can be an easy way to, you're never gonna be able to type your kid, but you can definitely figure out how they are trying to get what they need in life or how they're dealing with conflict, and then that can give you an easier way to understand them and help them through conflict, or help them, you know, get what they need, but also in a way that you can maybe help them work with baby steps of like, I know this is super important to you, but there are other ways and other things that are important to other people and like hopefully lay some good groundwork when they're little so that they can actually start adulthood in a much healthier place than most of us have had to.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

Right. Yeah, I think it's just that feeling seen and feeling heard, feeling understood. And it's like whether it's the Enneagram or whatever tools, um, you know, just yeah, you know, use as many as you can that are helpful. Um, I was reading um something about like the number one, or not that maybe it wasn't the number one, it was a crucial leadership skill that everyone needs to know about, but they don't typically know. And it was validation. And and I think like whether it's knowing someone's type or understanding, like you're talking about with your kids, you don't know their type maybe, um, but you can still kind of get a sense and validate. Oh, okay, I see, I see you're doing this or I see this means a lot to you. And like, I don't maybe get it or prioritize it, but I I see you, I get it, I understand you. So love that. I I I know that like there's so much more we could dig into. We've just scratched the surface. Um, is there anything else that you would add? I'm gonna ask for some of your book recommendations in just a moment because that's another one that always get, and I know you've shared some. Um, but before we get to that last question, is there anything else that I haven't asked you that um we should know about to kind of make this fill up episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Oh, I don't know. I know put you on the spot. Five more hours and all the Enneagram topics. Um, I nothing is coming to mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

Um, is where where can we find more about you? Like your we've we've talked about your content on Instagram and the blog. Where are those things?

unknown 1:03:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Um so I think my handles are all the same. Uh it's just Enneagram Explained, one word um for Instagram, Pinterest, Facebook, all that. Um, and then yeah, the websites, EnneagramExplained.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

Okay. Makes it very easy. And then what are some of your favorite Enneagram books that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

So, oh gosh. Um, okay, my favorite that I usually recommend is Beatrice Chestnuts, the complete Enneagram. Um, and we did not talk about that, but that covers subtypes, which helps you understand how you can be one type, even though if you don't miss the stereotypical version of it. Um, and so that I just find is super helpful. She walks through it all, she gives you some growth tip ideas. She's even got a mistyping guide in the back of the book. It is a very large book. So for those that are not ready to dive that deep, um, then the Essential Enneagram is a good like primer type book. Um, I mean, like I've got tons and tons that I love. Um I feel like there's not too many books that talk about the groupings yet or super in-depth. I know Suzanne Stabil is very big on the stances, um, but that can be hit and miss for people because she is Christian based. So if you're not a Christian, you'll probably just want to gloss over that. Um, but yeah, those are probably two of the most common ones that I recommend.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

Well, I will say, just to add to that, um, I did get her new book, uh, and I'm blanking on the name, wholehearted or I've got it somewhere. Uh The Journey Through Wholeness. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

Toward wholeness. Sorry. Journey towards wholeness.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:23

And yeah, I have a I have a you know, my own interesting relationship with like religion and all that. So I don't typically gravitate towards that, but I did find um that even if I I don't, uh, that was still a really helpful book. I'm glad you brought that up because she talks about like the arrows and the stances and in a really in-depth kind of by type. And I was like, oh wow, my mind is blown by a lot of this. So that's another great one. Um, well, Brittany, thank you so much for being here um and sharing some of your Enneagram knowledge and and um experience over the years. I appreciate it. Definitely um connect with Brittany if you're not already following her. Um, connect with her over on Instagram. Let her know what you're taking away from this episode. And I guess if you have any questions, um, that might be great topic ideas for the future. Uh, but definitely drop by, say hello. Thank you all for being here, and we'll see you in the next one. When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.