Enneagram at Work
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Enneagram at Work
110. How Can the Enneagram Be Used in the Addiction Recovery Process? feat. Liora Elias, PhD
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Addiction is a complex issue that affects millions worldwide. In today's episode with The Enneagram Dr. Liora Elias, PhD we're starting to explore how the Enneagram can help individuals struggling with addiction gain insight into their go-to patterns of behavior, coping mechanisms, and core fears.
By understanding these aspects, individuals can begin to identify the underlying stories and emotional triggers that can lead to addictive behaviors.
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You're listening to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MBA podcast. Today we have a very special guest, like all of our guests, but this guest today, I'm very excited to introduce to you. We have the Enneagram doctor, Dr. Leora Alias, who is joining us as an Enneagram practitioner and as an Enneagram type six. So welcome to the show, uh, Dr. Leora.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Sarah. I'm honored to be here. Happy to speak with you on this.
SPEAKER_01I am looking forward to this. Today we are just kind of diving into the topic, um, kind of a more serious topic, but an important one. And, you know, this show is around using the Enneagram at work and better understanding ourselves and our teammates. And I think um today the conversation is around addiction and um using the Enneagram. I know we're just gonna be scratching the surface today, but I think this can be applied in the workshop or the workplace um just to have more compassion and empathy and understanding and to be able to support our teammates um with other things that are going on in their life. Um and so we're we're kind of gonna be equipping ourselves with maybe some myth busting, some misconceptions that we might have had around um addiction and how different ways to maybe support the the people in our lives at work and and and at home. So excited for this conversation. Um, I'd like to start you and mention that you personally have been in uh the Al-Anon groups uh doing work there. Um, just for anybody who may not be familiar with that, would you do a quick introduction to that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. So Al-Anon is for families and friends of alcoholics and um and it is a 12-step group and uses the 12-steps, and all the groups I've been in use the 12 steps, just like all the 12-step groups do. The kind of the addiction of folks in Al-Anon has to do with this idea that we can help other people with their problems. The sort of the and in an over-responsibility in that way, taking on over-responsibility for that. So when I it was a handful of years ago, I didn't realize I needed Al Anon. I had I ran into a friend at a coffee shop. She asked me how I was.
SPEAKER_01But um, my first question, I guess, with this is how the heck can something like the Enneagram be helpful in a recovery process?
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay. So the Enneagram, and this is like I have a lot of enthusiasm for this because the Enneagram, okay, so any generalist who's talking to somebody who's in addiction can be very helpful in a broad scope way with addiction expertise. But when you bring in the Enneagram and you have access to these different energies, and you know which energy that person is more leaning into, then you can it gives you a more um a pathway, a more specified pathway, both into what that person is experiencing and also like how to be most useful and helpful. So, like so for me as a six, when I landed into the groups of Al-Anon, so it's the six is right, where like seeking that deep need for safety, the deep need for security, deep needs for like support. And when I was when I I noticed right away I had just a handful of meetings under me, and I felt that symbolic relief of knowing that there's like a network of people out there who are having similar struggles, and they're they're like there, they're just like there, and that that for me as a six specifically gave me this brought the levels down of what I was experiencing before, and this is way even before I got into it, just like that very beginning of symbolic support what took those levels down for me a lot around um like that fear of not being um safe and secure and supported.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. Can we do another example? Like I'm like, I'll just pick on myself. So, how might we use what we know about the seven to kind of do something similar?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so okay, hold on. I took a couple notes on this. Okay, I knew you were gonna ask me, like, how are we gonna do this? So, like a seven has like that satisfaction piece, right? And so I think a uh like a um you know that a seven's an addiction when they're like sort of pleasure seeking to their own detriment, and when they're seeking constant stimulation but never satisfied, and kind of in this like hedonistic type space. Um I think a seven coming into a space like a recovery space will find like when settled, settling in, they'll find um some consistency that I think really gives some relief for a seven. Um and kind of I think there's a reframing for a seven about what pleasure seeking can even mean. Like, can you what does pleasure seeking look like? What kind of pleasures can be found in in the space of recovery?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great one. Just kind of reframing what does satisfaction look like and yeah, or feel like, or yeah. Um I have to ask you this question. Uh I I think I might already know the answer, but I'm curious what what your answer is because people are always asking, you know, what's the best this? What types are the most compatible? And so one of the questions I was going to ask you in your experience, um, are there specific types that are more prone to addiction than others?
SPEAKER_00I actually think, well, I've I would say there probably are. There are, and I think it might be even the seven that might be involved more so because of what the some of the tendencies that I just spoke to, like that pleasure seeking, the seven might seek pleasure in some of these addictive spaces, like substances or sex or um alcohol, and and that might be a loop for a seven that might be more so, but all this all these points, all these numbers can be an R have like can have addictive qualities and can be drawn into addiction, but I actually do think it's maybe the seven that's a little bit more than others.
SPEAKER_01You know, I was I thought you were gonna say, oh, no type can, you know, any type, but I you know that that's probably true. I have heard that sometimes sevens can struggle the most with um depression because it is, and who knows? This is purely anecdotal, but you know, because it's they have this expectation to be happy all the time, and so that they're like you know, sad that they're not happy all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that that's part of it too, and so there's this like constant like looking for something else to meet that happy need, and uh like a seven before they come fully online might seek that from these types of spaces from substance and alcohol, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know that you know addiction often will involve um I don't know, harmful or just non-serving patterns of behavior that don't support us. Uh, patterns of behavior, coping mechanisms. Um, how does the Enneagram and your experience help individuals identify some of these harmful patterns that are just that aren't serving us?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, so I think the Enneagram is so useful in that way because it's like when we talk about in the Enneagram speak like the fixation, whatever it is that um is like the constant loop we're on, that's sort of the the heart of what the addictive qualities, the addictive loop that the each of the type can experience. So yeah, for the six, it's like um well, it's like the fear of fear itself, right? And so how does that look when it's it's coming from like an addictive place?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I something um that I don't I don't talk a lot about, but I I could potentially see in this context being helpful and curious, you know, your thoughts on this is um kind of like what you were talking about, the vices or the passions. Um each type kind of has has one of those like seven deadly sins, only it's it's nine. And so for like the one, you know, it's anger. For um the three, it's kind of that deceit around who you really are. Um, a seven is gluttony. What was the six? Six is fear. Um, how do you see is that is that kind of understanding that part of the Enneagram? Is that a a useful thing to maybe dig into a part of the Enneagram to dig into?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think so. Like I think that that knowing what um what is primary in that fixated space is the knowing it and having awareness of it is the way out. Like you can't you can't change a thing until you see it clearly. Yeah. So I think that like any like a one who does who is like unaware of their anger is going to re-channel that or channel that energy in destructive ways, but but a one who's aware of that energy can have capacity to experience their anger without channeling it outwardly in destructive ways.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I like that. It's like um being just being intentional. Um it's uh I don't know if you've heard of that analogy where it's like you you can use a knife to cut up a delicious meal or as a murder weapon. At the end of the day, the knife is the knife, it's how you use it.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um one of the other things I was gonna ask about is um around kind of what growth looks like. And one of my favorite things or pieces of the Enneagram are the the arrows or the resource points or whatever term you use now, um to kind of help give us some insight into, oh, um, this is what I might look like, you know, in that extreme stress state. But also here are some things that I could pull in, not to be like another type, but to to kind of help, you know, grow and and maybe enhance the things that I need to work on. Um is that a part of the Enneagram that you could see being helpful in this process? And if so, um I'd be curious how you used it specifically.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the Enneagram is perfect, it's like a really wonderful roadmap for growth and health and wellness. Um, and I think like so I think we can think of the the type or the point in stress as a person who's experiencing active addiction, because that person is actively addicted to the loop of that that thought process or that belief system or the um just the way they kind of the distortions around seeing of the self. But the enneagram has a really lovely road map of oh oh hey, hey type, there's there's another way. There's another way, there's another way, and and it it's not like knowing that is not um like knowing that and embodying that, those are very different things. So the for me, like the embodiment of um getting out of the addictive qualities of the six is very much like doing life differently, like reaching out to people and not testing them, right? That's the six likes to the six six likes to test and test and test and then trust, right? But like what if the six trusts and then see how that feels, right? So like for me, the Enneagram, um, the roadmap of the Enneagram gave me some really like clear uh okay, this is what a six needs relationally. They need some supportive humans who they can have make phone calls to and not be not be criticized or not be judged or not be just like held in safe in safe care. All the emotions are okay. You get to have all your emotions, um, feel them and do it in a way, do it with the people who you know can hold that, versus the the experience of the like myself prior to um recovery spaces was like having a lot of a lot of like a lot of feelings, bringing them kind of everywhere I go and just unloading them on whoever was around.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um I I also was thinking, um, well, before I get to that thought, um, I I know our listeners love a good specific example. And I know that you've given some about the six, obviously, and even the seven. Um, I'm wondering, could we could we maybe do an example of you know, like active what active addiction with that stress arrow might look like for a specific type, and then how they could use their growth arrow to kind of maybe, you know, move in a in a healthier direction?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can do like brief on on all of them. We can start with one. So like the one is gonna be in addictive space in that stress space, they're gonna be compelled to fix what they see as wrong, and they're gonna be critical toward themselves and others. So the the inversion of that to get out of that addictive space is to like set uh set down the need to fix everything. It's not always your problem, and to like turn turn the lens of compassion on that critic that critical voice, and turn the lens of compassion first inward, like toward the self, and then inadvertent, like what happens is when uh one can do that, then it extends outwardly too. So that critical voice first has to shut down for the one or get quieter, so and so that the one then can outwardly be compassionate toward others.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then our two that's striving to feel connected, um, wanted, appreciated. What about them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the two is going to in their addictive space, they're gonna just like kind of automatically be on feeling feeling rejected. They're gonna just have that as a go-to, like that person's rejecting me. Um, they're gonna feel unwanted and disposable, and they're going to have this experience of like that person's gonna abandon me at any moment. So the again, a lot of the so the inversion is like, okay, what do what does the two need to feel loved and wanted? And that is a thing that the two needs to give themselves first. So the two self-care for the two is big, like like the gift of giving to the self and paying attention to their own needs and wants before they go around and try to meet the needs and wants of all other people.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay, and then are three striving to feel outstanding, wanting that success, accomplishment. What about them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the three in their addictive space, they're gonna be lost in a desperate need to succeed, and they're gonna be like despairingly self-centered. Okay, so the two or the three, um to turn that around, like the three has like a in this drive for success, they're often out of touch with their own feeling space. And so what the three can do to move out of that that loop of addiction is to pay attention to their own feelings and get in tune with what they are and what the information is that the feelings are trying to tell them. Um And then like that sort of turning around that self-centered piece to be more um like caring of the of the whole and the group and the um the circle, the community.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And then our four striving to feel unique, wanting to feel significant. What what might they be struggling with?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the four in addiction is gonna have like a really intense emotional reactivity, and their suffering is going to be like play a large role in their everyday. Um, they're gonna have a hard time maintaining creative focus, and they're gonna have a sense of being like a misunderstood outsider. And for the four, the four um can kind of turn that around when they realize that they have all that they need, all the capacities are within them in order to like kind of grow and flourish.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like um nothing is is inherently wrong with you, kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then our type fives want to feel capable, competent, be self-sufficient. What about them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so fives have in addiction, they're gonna self-isolate, they're gonna be kind of nihilistic and pessimistic and doomsayers, like, and they're gonna have dis they're gonna have destructive tendencies to themselves and others, and a lot of that stems from being detached from like their feeling experience, their um like so what like being present to the direct experience and feelings for a five is going to be really key in moving them out of that addictive loop.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then I know we've talked quite a bit about our six and our seven, so we'll jump to eight, wanting to be wanting to feel powerful, strong, not vulnerable at all. What about them in addiction?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so an eight in addiction is gonna look self-protective, on guard, um, and at war with life, and they're gonna hold power over others, and they're gonna defend themselves even when it's not necessary to defend themselves to but could be powerful in that strength. And for the eight, what they can do to get out of that loop is realize that actually their vulnerability is their strength.
SPEAKER_01Oh, like reframing that story about what power and strength looks like. Yep. Okay, and then last but not least is our type nine who want to feel at peace both internally and outwardly. Um, what what do we know what should we know about them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the nine, the nine in addiction, they're gonna want to be left alone, they're gonna want to um be left alone to their addiction because they're finding comfort in it. And they kind of want, they have like a they're gonna want to be invisible to themselves and others. It's like a it's a hiding and the addictive qualities for the um nine are kind of in this coping mechanism space. So for the nine, like it's uh the nine can get really overwhelmed, especially in addiction in addiction, in active addiction, and kind of think of um that like it's the barrier is that this is so big and it's taken over my life. And so for the nine, it's just those little steps, like one thing at a time, dropping little um just little nuggets into their wealth, well, their well wellness wealth or their wellness bank, just a little bit at a time in order to get to the bigger um growth spots.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's so helpful just to kind of know. Um, it doesn't mean that you know we'll catch ourselves every single time, but I think it's whether it's kind of on the uh extreme end of addiction or just when you're not, you know, being the best version of yourself, understanding, you know, what that looks like, the anyagram can really give you a kind of a picture um and and some language to describe that, which is what I wanted to move into next before we start to wrap this up is now I I don't have personal experience with the the 12-step program, but I I know there are some deeply reflective questions um that are a part of that process. How do you see the Enneagram and understanding your your dominant type helping make that process even more helpful, maybe more effective?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I think the Enneagram, I think of the Enneagram as like a it it can get you to from here to there faster than you can get from here to there with any other um type of like system or structure or understanding or worldview because the roadmap is already laid out and it's been like it's other people's experience, and you might not map onto them like precisely, but there's going to be once a person is clear on type, there's going to be a really clear road out. More than more than you can get, I think, from any other um any other place because it's it's like indiv it's it's like individualized without being about you. I mean it because it is it is about you, but we've all had these universal experiences and they have and we have because we have this system where we can point to nine or twenty-seven or fifty-four, but what like we can point more specifically into these are gonna be your tough spots. You as a six are gonna do some projecting. How do you how can we undo some of that for you? Um, you as a six are gonna experience a lot of self-doubt and you're gonna struggle with confidence, and that's gonna be us, you know, and how do we undo that for you as a six?
SPEAKER_01And and too, kind of it's just it's sometimes it's like, I don't know what's wrong, or I don't know why I feel this way, I just feel this way. But then it's like to have something like the Enneagram kind of hold up a mirror or have some words and and phrases to think about and reflect on. It's like, oh, okay, this is what's going on with me. And now I can kind of articulate that or communicate it um to others. Here's what I need, here's what's going on, here's what I need with myself, even rather than just like, oh, something's off. I don't, I don't know how to explain it. Um, I love that. Um, is there any, and this is a very personal experience. So we can change names, we can generalize it, or you know, you may not want to share half something that comes to the top of your mind. That's okay. But I was just curious too, if if there's any success stories um that come to mind for um how somebody has positively used the Enneagram um through, you know, this addiction recovery process.
SPEAKER_00I can really mostly speak to myself in that. And I think like my experience with the Enneagram has shifted my whole the whole way that I look at myself. Like I don't I wouldn't be on this podcast, I wouldn't be talking to you if I'd stayed in those addictive loops, right? Because like the fear and the anxiety, that's what has kept me from seeing myself as a person of capacity and as a person of like knowledge that's worth sharing and um like have like I couldn't wouldn't have seen me as a like a creative person or a um like well-versed person like that. So I think the from my own experience, the Enneagram has made it possible for me to get out of my addictive loops and then to turn around and to um kind of grow to the place where I have capacity, desire, willingness to then impart what I've learned to others.
SPEAKER_01And then last question before we start to wrap it up, um, is there anything that we need to be cautious of or potential challenges or limitations when it comes to applying the Enneagram to this recovery process?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think with all things, it's important to be more so the Enneagram is a really valuable tool, but when applied in generalities, when applied in stereotype, it can get it can miss, it can miss the mark a lot. So I think it's really important like for anybody who's interested in this work and in type to look at the full person and their the whole the whole of that person, the whole of their life experience, the whole of their cultural context and their gender expression and their sexuality and their um racial presentation or racial identity and all of those things are um like going to have they're gonna play a role in the in the way in which uh addiction looks, in the way in which addiction manifests and shakes out, and so I think the more we can do as practitioners, as coaches, as teachers, is to like take the Enneagram and take the gifts of the Enneagram and the specificity of the Enneagram, but not slap it on to a person, but to really like use it as guidance and advice and nudges, and this is how it looks for a lot of people in their tendencies, and also there's these factors and these factors and these factors, and they're also in the room.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, well said. Well, I know that there is a book that kind of on a similar topic for anybody wanting to maybe dive into uh a little bit more detail with using the Enneagram and the addiction process. What what uh what is that? Where where can we find that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I really do like Michael Naylor's book. It's called The Alchemy of the Enneagram in Transforming Addiction. Um he draws from experiential knowledge working with addicted people in their type, um, in a counseling type setting. And it's very um, it's very useful both for the this is what it looks like, this is what addiction looks like in type, and also has a lot of practical um tips for both for the practitioner, how to help a person who's in their addiction, but also for the person, like suggestions, nudges, guidance, how to handle and move through addictive qualities of type um in a more in some con really concrete ways.
SPEAKER_01Okay, we're gonna link that in the show now. I know that we got we got everybody got a long book list, but we always love a good recommendation and specifically on this topic. I think that's a great one. Um, and then lastly, um, for anybody who wants to know more about you and the work that you do over at the Enneagram Doctor, where can we learn more about your services and connect and say hello?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I can be found on my website, which is as you said, the Enneagram Doctor dr.com. Also in the Instagram space, theeneagramdr dr.com. Those are the places that I'm most active right now. Also on LinkedIn. Um, but those are the places that I can be found and can be reached and like excited to dig into this work with anybody willing and ready.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Okay, so as always, um, I know whether it's something about the type six or something that was said in the addiction recovery process. Um, definitely reach out to Dr. Leora, let her know what resonated, any uh anything that you can relate to. Our guests always love it. So please do that. Um, and with that, Dr. Leora, I appreciate you being here um for all that you shared. I learned so much personally. I know our listeners did as well. And uh it sounds like we'll see you over on uh Instagram or LinkedIn, possibly.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Sarah. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure and an honor to be here.
SPEAKER_01When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.
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