SPEAKER_00 0:00

In these different workshops and and team trainings that I get to do, the type four out of all the types consistently is the type that I see the least amount of. Sometimes there's just a just a pure gap on the team map. Other times we'll have maybe our token four on the team, which is always really interesting and fun for the rest of us to learn about. And today the conversation is to is around how to get to know a little bit more about that four energy. And then what are some ways that you personally, your team, your leadership style can be enhanced regardless of what other type you are by being more intentional about bringing some of that four energy in? Our type fours are striving to feel unique. That is very important to them. Um they want to stand out, they want to do meaningful work, they want to be significant, and at the same time, they very much want to belong, but belong by being their authentic self. And so it's really important for our fours to feel seen, heard, understood. And because that's so important to them, they just seem to have a natural talent for making others really feel that way. So one of many things we're gonna get into today. Um, and to help us understand um more about the four and ways the rest of us can, other types can bring that energy in. Um, my guest today is Maddie Christine Hope Brokop. And Maddie Christine um is originally from the Netherlands. She is a foster mom, she is a partner, um, a wife to an Enneagram9 that we had on the show a couple of months ago with Tim Brokop. And um she spent over 16 years as the owner of her own production company where she did editorial work and organizing events. Now, Maddie Christine has her own company again, but this time she is a spiritual director, she is a retreat leader, and she's a facilitator of spiritual practices for her company, trying to see well. And so she's going to be sharing a little bit about how her type four energy has shown up as she's navigated these this career and some things that we can the rest of us can really learn from and benefit from knowing more about that type four energy. So, without further ado, enjoy this episode all about bringing some type four energy into our teams with Maddie Christine. You're listening to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm excited to be diving into this week's episode with you. Today's episode, I think, is going to be one that I end up sharing a lot because we are talking to Maddie Christine today, who identifies most as an Enneagram 4. And we've we've talked about before even hitting recording today, how this tends to be one of the least likely types on most teams that I work with in these corporations or small businesses, which is really interesting. We're going to get into that. Um, but a common question that stems from that gap sometimes is one, if we do only have one, uh, how what do we need to know about them? Like how can we support them? Because most of the rest of the team is gonna be a little bit different. And then two, if we're missing that energy, what can we do to maybe fill that gap in different ways? So we're gonna be learning more about the four in real life from Maddie Christine, and then also just what the rest of us who are not fours can understand and better work with our the fours who are in our lives. So with that, Maddie Christine, welcome to the show. Thank you. Looking forward to it. I am too. So um I think a lot of times this energy is missing in our working lives because we can be so focused on the task or the goal or the next meeting. Or I think there is some um, I think it's fading, but it's still there where it's like work life is work life and personal life is personal life. Like, don't bring it to work. Like your cat died, like leave that at home, come ready to work. But what I what I, you know, I'm seeing more and reading about more is just this need for these empathetic leaders and for your teammates and employees to be humans and to allow for that and to uh they said the number one or one of the number one um skills a leader can can provide to their team is this validation, letting people know that, hey, I hear you, I see you, I feel you. Um, and so I I know that, you know, I'd be curious how you see some of these strengths of a four, how they could benefit a team or or how they benefited you in your professional life.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

I think we all need one another. I wouldn't want a company with all fours, I wouldn't want a company with all nines or right. I I I need the nine in my life. I I I don't think I'm well without it. And I think my nine and the nines that I know definitely need uh me in their life. So I think it's so important to to to have everyone in your company, right? And I think the the strongness of a four is that when it gets uncomfortable, I don't go to fix it mode. I say, hey, let's take a deep breath. Hey, let's go for a walk and let's let's go there first. And then I find that often when you take that deep breath, or when you go, like companies do this nowadays, they do meetings while walking, or they say, hey, let's just take a break, and they go out for just five minutes, it changes so much, and I think that's what I would be. I would say, listen, this feels so heavy right now, uh, or even in a conflict. Hey, let's let's just pause. And you can even together in the midst of a conflict or in the midst of the heaviness in a meeting, we can all, it's out of the box, but we can all be outside together for five minutes, right? And so I think that that is what a four can bring. Um, and I think I also really look at the individual. Um, so let's say we're going out for this five-minute walk as a team. I would also be really inviting people to, and and as you walk downstairs, down this down the stairs, pay attention to what you need in those five minutes. Do you want to walk with the group or do you need to just have some time to connect with yourself? Right? So it is, I know it's so out of the box. Um, but it does help creativity flow too. And I don't know, I don't think it matters what business you're in. We need creativity.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yes, yes, and and uh, you know, I think too, just expanding our idea of creativity because sometimes it's like, oh, our artist, uh, but it's like, oh no, creative solutions and um to get the other side of the brain going.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Like I'm not I'm not thinking art. And it's just like, hey, you have two sides of your brains, and they're both powerful. And if you tend to be more on your left side, then let's ignite that right side, and then there's more of you present, right? And that's the same for me, who I I might be more on the right side, and so other people can help me be more on that left side. I'm a better person for it. So, and the other thing that comes to mind is you know, the world is troubling. That's easy for me to say is a four, but we all have hurt, and when we come to work and we feel, well, I have to now park that, I have to leave in the car because now we have to perform. Can you imagine how much better people perform if somebody just sees them? It doesn't have to be a conversation for 20 minutes, it's just it could be I know it sounds like elementary school-ish. It could be a note on your desk, and somebody will feel felt and do better that day. Like, and that's when we need one another. But I I'm definitely not for I have to park my my personal issues, my my illness, my bad day in my marriage, whatever, my trouble with my kid. I'd say let's bring it. And if we bring it, we actually notice that it it drains us less than when we park it.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

You know, um sometimes I'll I'll talk about like a company slogan for each of the types. And as you were thinking, I thought about the one that I typically use for the four, which is Apple think different, which is exactly what you were saying. Just kind of think thinking out of the box, thinking differently. And you know, speaking of Apple, sometimes um, I'd be curious your thoughts on this. If and if you don't have any, that's okay. But sometimes too, people want to know, like, well, like what's an example, or like who who's an example? And sometimes I'll use Steve Jobs um as a four in the workplace, um, because he always wanted to do meaningful work. I want to make a dent in the universe. Um, and I I I like using him because sometimes I think fours get this reputation for just being like, oh, I'm just so feeling and artistic. Yes, yes. But here he he has this four energy, but also like you know, forward moving. So I don't know. Any any like thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 10:17

I wonder, right, if we're a healthy four, if we're actually way more grounded than some other people out there. I mean, a three can do this too. I mean, everyone, but let's say that you just show up at work with your mask on. That's draining, that's not being real, right? Um, because I'm such a feeler and because I want to feel felt, and because I want to be seen, it does require me to do the healthy work that a four needs to do, right? Because I can't be out in the world just with this need to feel felt. And so I do a lot of grounding work. So when I go to work, I think I tend to show up, or let's say in general, healthy force, and tend to show up pretty grounded. And so we we might be looked at like floaty. Um, but when we're healthy, we're really, we're really healthy, really healthy, we're really grounded. And if we look at some of the other types, how much are they doing their grounding? How much are they showing up with the need to please or their mask, or they have to, uh, or their critical self, the one, or they have to just this energy just only to perform the three, right? So I think that's what a four can bring. We're not floaty, we can be extremely and beautifully grounded. So yay for Steve Jones.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yes, I I mean, and who knows, right? He's probably not he didn't take the Enneagram, but I just, you know, things that I've read and just look kind of assessing, it's like, oh, I could, yeah, I could see this. Um, you know, talking about a four being grounded and and growth, and uh for those that are familiar with the term, like the growth arrow or deintegration, integration movement. Um, I also have had people uh refer to our arrow points as like resource points, so we can dip in and that for the for the four, we've talked about the two, sometimes being the stress arrow. Um, the growth arrow is the one striving to feel perfect, kind of routine, organized, more structured, kind of more follow the process. Uh, how do you see you not becoming a one, but how do you see some of those one tendencies enhancing your four energy?

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah, I when I read about the one, I there's definitely in ways that I feel at home. Um, I uh I'm very well organized, and I have I for detail. I used to run a production company, um, used to work on many different projects all at the same time, and they were all well organized. I love that about a one, and I love that the four goes in that direction when we're well. Um, that's definitely a strength of mine that doesn't necessarily come with a four. It's definitely the oneness that I really connect with.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yeah. And sometimes we'll call the growth arrow um the neglected type because at first it's sometimes one of the most the the types that we're like most resistant to because for a four, it's like structure, routine. Oh my gosh, that's I can't be my authentic self. I can't be create creative, but it's like, oh no, you don't have to be a one. It's like, how can you those things maybe be guardrails?

SPEAKER_02 13:53

I love that part of me. I love that I'm organized. I love that my house is organized and um and and and I think I'm so full of emotion that it's great that the practical side of life for me is very straightforward and I love that. Um now the interesting thing when we unpack that more is that I have eye for detail. And how you you ask, how does the oneness connect with the four energy? My eye for detail when I produce, when I put up events, there's also this thing of am I special now? Because I've looked at all the details. I go above and beyond with events. So how much is there still then a little bit of like that unhealthiness of, and now see me then? And look what I did.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Disclosure. I mean, that's so good because that you know, that's the stuff. It's like, oh yeah, yeah, I do that too, or oh, that's so good to understand.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Um I am currently, which is uh a hard thing, but I I take it very seriously. Uh, in in my current work, I really try to do less. I'm trying to meet myself when I do less. And I'm paying attention to what I feel and how I feel and how it affects me being in the group. Um, and it's a huge challenge, huge challenge to do less. And um, and yeah, I'm I'm currently discovering who I meet in that space.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

You know what? Um that kind of makes me think of another topic that we had touched on, and maybe we could come in at kind of through the lens of either being a good teammate or how you see this maybe show up in a four leadership role. Where typically um in many of these workplaces, it's leading with the head. It's like, these are the goals, this is the these are the results that we need. Here's your performance review, here's your performance plan, you know, just a lot of kind of like head problem solving, like you were saying. Um, but then we've also talked about the advantages of allowing people to just vent and feel heard or feel felt, feel felt. And um, you know, I I think that when, and this is just my experience, but when we think of a leader, it's this three energy. It's this big eight energy, um, which absolutely they are, you know, they have some natural leadership qualities, it makes sense. Um, ones, sometimes sevens, fours don't always get, you know, initially recognized for oh, oh yeah, I could see them as a great leader. What what do you see as being some of the advantages of having a four leader?

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah. I think a team builder having having eyes for the individual, having eyes then how that works in the group. Um and attention for the individual, I think in the end, we'll produce more if we're in a you know producing world. Um, I think that really does help, right? Um also to bring people to their true self, um, to help other people get grounded. And um, I mean, I have worked in jobs where um at some point I was a recruiter, and my boss had totally not looked, he had no idea of really where my strengths and my my weaknesses were. He put me in a job. I had no place of being, and I was completely unaware of my strengths, and and I just picked up any job, like, sure, I'll do it. And I was extremely unhappy. So having a four um as a leader would really look to an individual and and not determine for the individual, this is what you need to be doing, this is what you're good at, but more help the individual to get to their selves and really recognize what what do you enjoy doing? What is life giving? What drains you? Uh, and then be able to maybe shift some things around and then really use people's strengths.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Does that make sense? Does that sound floaty? Does that sound too feeling?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

No, I think I think that that is um such a great gift because it's it's not just, oh, this person's good at this, so they'll be, yeah, this is the spot for them. But it's, you know, I I know you and I see you and I've been paying attention to you, and I, you know, I know how I would feel, and you know, extending empathy and understanding. And so then it's like, well, you're good at this, but based on what I know and our conversations, and I'm going to open that up to actually have a conversation too. Um, how do you feel about it? And and then it's like, okay, now we can start to identify the best place for you, not just because you're good at this thing. So I like that.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

And I do think um I as a four really want people to get close to themselves. I want them to take off their masks. I I see unhealth, and I will visit that unhealth. Um, with my husband, maybe not so gentle. With others, probably more gentle. Um, and I love that too, is helping people come to themselves um and maybe learn to take off that mask and or learn to not people please and find their strength when um my husband Tim is currently learning to not people please. Um in a way, life was easy when he was people pleasing me. It wasn't fun. And now that he's no longer that people pleasing, wow, the power that is coming out. It is beautiful and it's very enjoyable. Right? So there's life there. The other thing that comes to mind, let's not forget who my neighbors are. I have a three and I have a five, and they can be very productive also. So I want to get rid of this idea that fours are just feelers, that we're just artists, that we're just floaty. We can be extremely productive, and we have energies from both sides, yeah, too.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yeah. Um, and you know, exactly like in being intentional with that like very head energy of the five, or you know, the the three, the effectiveness, the efficiency, um, when needed. And so it's just just with everything, just being intentional. Um, I love what you said about getting close to ourselves because um I don't know that we I I know for a two, the four is the growth arrow. And um my partner is a is a two, and we've talked a lot about the growth that he's had over his, you know, his personal growth journey by pulling in more of that self-understanding and self focus, which for a two can feel kind of selfish or yeah, scary. Yeah. Um, I'm curious because I do have a lot of twos in a lot of the groups. Um, is there anything that maybe we haven't already said that just kind of words of wisdom from a four? are twos who tend to have that energy so others focused um you know some things that they could pull from the four any specifics or just general ways of thinking um as they look to that type for some some growth and development i would first say don't be afraid don't be afraid of the four in you and it takes courage to take on that that that other part of you and especially for a four who feel uh for a two who feels guilty when they're looking at self and it's something that they so need to learn right they they have a hard time looking at self and knowing their own needs so I I applaud courage to go to that foresight then I say don't be afraid you will find yourself you will find a part of yourself that's only going to enrich you right and and living to get because that's essentially what a two often is doing it's giving to get to learn to be in that forness space where you you get a sense of your own needs learning to voice those um then the giving turns into something very beautiful for a two yeah and and I just think we live um we live in community so for a two to learn to ask for what they need yeah is just a beautiful thing. I think yeah I think their giving will will change then yeah I love I haven't heard it ever put quite like that but I I really love that because that's the thing too that as we look at growth for all the types um it's never it's never gonna work or or be sustainable if we are trying to say okay well now I need to focus on others I need to be more other or um I need to focus on myself I need to do more for myself but what you just said is sounds like is you know look at look at these things so that you can still have that striving to connect striving to to feel connected and you're just doing it in a different way versus maybe other ways that weren't as healthy. Yeah. Um I know even for myself and I'm sorry did I cut you off regardless um even for myself I have I think of the four often um with my sometimes toxic positivity and what I realized it that I do is I don't necessarily do problem solving sometimes I do well you know you can always get another pet or you didn't break you didn't break both legs you know be thankful you're not in a prison camp you know I mean and so it's just like I really that's one of the biggest lessons I've gotten from the Enneagram is just realizing just what a negative impact sometimes that toxic positivity. And so I think about the four and like instead just be like oh that sucks I'm really sorry I'm a griever and I invite greed grieving when I'm with people um and so I tend to walk with people where they are at and I may not understand it but I try not to judge it.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

So if somebody is a weird a weird example but if somebody is a plant lover I see plants in your room right there's people that really tend to their plans and they talk to their plans and if they've had a plant for for six years and it started with a seed and that plant dies it could be a loss and I could be thinking oh it's a stupid plant it might be a stupid example but I will posit that plant and that loss because you know once that get gets a voice they can move on and they're and they're better for it right so I anything that needs grieving I grieve and I grieve with people and I also don't determine even for myself right I'd like to move on of things that are hard um but it's not me who determines when the grieving is done my body will tell me that and so I'm also not determining for other people when it needs to be done so um yeah I think that that is an important an important part I will uh yeah rarely yeah I will not say to someone oh it'll it'll get better no the moment is important that's again what I said like in the business right if if a miner you would just pause for just a second right it it's um it's so much better than a comment of oh it'll get better or I hope it gets better for you or or even I'll be thinking about you like what do you mean like that's not that's not gonna make me feel loved but to really that pause I think is so powerful. You don't even have to say anything.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Okay I I want to I wasn't sure where when I would bring this up but I I'm uh I want to talk about pet peeves for the four and I before I I have a list um and I want to hear from you like definitely yes or yes and or whatever. So we'll go through that have a couple of things but one observation I just made about myself in this conversation is um the like pausing and I've noticed that fours fives sometimes not it's like kind of those in the um withdrawn stance will take pauses or will will will slowly say things and then with my hyper energy sometimes and I know that there's other types threes eights maybe two we can jump in and and talk over and and so I that's another thing that I've been aware of and I used to have a client that I'm pretty sure was a five and I would constantly interrupting him as I look back on it or like pushing like just do it just just just do it and he would come back and process and then he would need to process some more and I'm like oh my gosh so much processing but you know I'm seeing it through through my lens and I think there's a lot of people in this kind of corporate culture that maybe just in general that's the energy but can you tell others like how that feels or what would be a better any advice for us who tend to like maybe talk faster or want to want to can't handle any silence I think I will feel shut down completely especially when I'm having a bad day and I'll just withdraw.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

So you don't get the best of me uh when you are you and that's I think where we need one another right but um yeah completely shut down now when I'm healthy and I'm I'm actually um I recently did a pilgrimage and I learned a lot during that pilgrimage and one of the things that I learned is to be more self-aware even I as a four can say that and and just kind of place my hand here and if you were to really come with your energy let's say that I've shared something deep or something that not so deep but it's just hard for me and you just bounce over me that I can just go I can even if I even do this I help you posture. Like it's it's going to affect you when I pause so it doesn't even take much to kind of change what's going on or to just take care of myself right like your energy might be too much. So for me to just do this take just a breath right this can be seconds. Again I'm not talking about a whole minute I am helping myself now I'm probably affecting you and then the next step would be can I communicate to you now what's happening? Again we're I know we're talking corporate world this will work in the corporate world because it's not we're not talking a long time we're talking about this moment when you and I can connect to can I now give you some feedback on what's happening? And that could be I notice your energy is is uh is a little much I need a moment or I can even just say you know I just really shared something deep and I uh I don't feel you hurt me I don't feel you you you hurt what I said. Are you feeling me? Are we right and I wonder how that changes. And I wonder also then how we will continue our production of what we need to produce that day. I think having all the different types in your office and knowing who's there and even having conversations about the Enneagram so we can be aware and help one another right I'm very okay if like you let's say you're in a hype remote and you're being really creative and you're you're on a roll and you're in a good stream for yourself and I come with my heavy self or right you could say hey you can just do that hey I'm in like high energy I'm on a flow and I just can I come back to you in a little while I I don't want to miss my flow.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

I'm very okay with that I'm very okay with that I don't always need to uh in that sense actually that would probably make me feel felt because you see who I am and you ask for what you need and that makes me feel felt I don't you don't have to give me always what I think I need yeah yeah that's really good too just kind of to hear both both sides of that like the four expressing hey it felt felt or like on the opposite end like hey I'm gonna flow or whatever. And I I do think that it is really helpful and whether it's the Enneagram or other tools or you know you're working with a therapist or you know whatever um it's really powerful the more that you not only understand yourself not only understand the person in front of you or the team around you but also then start to see and understand your impact on those people and it you know I think sometimes having something like the Enneagram where it's like oh there's other people who this is a common tendency of a of a four this is this happens a lot with sevens uh you're talking over me and you're there's nothing wrong with you this is common you know that kind of takes the sting out of it yeah isn't it fun to kind of joke back and forth yeah right it just lightens up the room like I do have people oh there's Matty or foreignist right and I joke a lot about me I know what I bring and I know it's not always easy.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Um yeah so it's it is it it is fun to joke about as well. Yeah yeah oh um I I have some pet peas.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yes yes you're okay so the list of pet peeves um this is very general so it may hit it may not but I I want to hear your personal thoughts on it. So sometimes we'll talk about pet peas for a four telling them to just get over it or telling them to look on the bright side can be just really irritating at work. Prioritizing speed over aesthetics or you know the creative some building something different and unique um perceiving them as negative when really they're just expressing how they feel or maybe they're noticing that something truly is missing and it can feel irritating to be dubbed as negative. And then I have ignoring the importance of getting to know them. I'd be curious if anything on here like really jumps out at you or if there's anything significant that you would add to this list of pet peeps.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

I think they're all true.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

What stood out for me which we haven't talked about is the question asking a four loves it when you draw us out right when you ask questions uh and yes if I know you make an effort to get to know me I love that yeah so so they're all true for me I don't know if one in particular stands out it was a long list so um maybe we need to go over them again but they they all just it's all like yes yes yes yeah well and I think sometimes um just kind of like that get over it I don't know that those are the exact words that are used every time but just kind of that like dismissive of the feeling yeah that that shuts me down that hurts me yeah that really really does hurt me because I think there's a lot of other ways to communicate like we just had an example if you're in a different energy than I am and I'm in your space I'm very okay for you to just let me know that um but there's definitely going too fast uh you know the well so the other thing too when somebody is not real somebody is not real I sense it right um that to me like fake I can't do fake and so depending on like the office but that um so I worked um for national TV a lot of ego a lot of ego and a lot of fake so I have a hard time I mean I've done it for many years so clearly I did okay but I did yeah it's at some point I was yeah that's hard well and and this is this is stereotyping a little bit um so you know we just want to caution when when you're thinking about this or doing this because it's not all true for all types all the time obviously but sometimes um we'll get into a conversation uh during workshops about what types kind of work best together and what types might butt heads and at the end of the day it's like any type can work well together if they're both committed to working on themselves, working on the relationship, right? So caveat there, you know, disclaimer there. However, sometimes there are some maybe more common um synergies and then more common relationship struggles. And one that will come up for the four is sometimes the three because the three is trying to to they're striving to be outstanding. They're crafting this image of success and who do I they're shape shifters, right? And so it's almost the opposite of like being your authentic self it's who do I need to be in this room or with this group. I don't know do you do you have you experienced that do you see that what what uh what could our threes maybe do to you know build a bridge or or to to have a better relationship with that sometimes being their go-to strategies.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Oh I feel this is a tough one it is yeah it is a tough one um I've worked with a lot of uh threes and I work with one beautiful three who's very self-aware and on that then it's very beautiful um if someone is a three more on an unhealthy side not aware and it's just about producing and making a name oh boy that's because I have such a need for authenticity that then is really a hard match um at the same time I cannot not ask personal questions so I no matter who I'm with that's where I go and sometimes that really helps within that in that place um and the three is beautiful as well right like their energy is amazing and they do get beautiful things done and they're go getters and I like that energy as well so I'm aware I'm not fully answering your question. I think I have a hard time with the question. Yeah for me it's hard if if somebody's not authentic and is only just wanting to like I said I've worked in the TV world I've seen so much of that.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

And I think what what is helpful about even just understanding that is like sometimes you may have whether whatever type you are you know be butting heads with somebody and it's just like I don't know why we can't click I don't I don't know what it is. And so understanding oh sometimes fours because this is so important and threes because this is so important they may butt heads because of of this that may be the case it may be not but it it may put language or like a thing to a feeling um and that can be helpful sometimes one thing that I I thought of just as you were talking um that a four could really you know be beneficial for a three on a team it happened uh last week at another workshop everybody had to go around their small groups and share a strength that they noticed kind of using their Enneagram language or just you know what but just saying hey I I see that you show up this way and whatever the strength is and uh I had one three who was getting emotional and it's like oh I didn't know that I had these emotions and I'm over here like the you know almost crying and so it's like oh yeah like threes are you know they do have all these feelings and I think they do want to be themselves deep down but it's like oh no I can't be I have to be this person.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Exactly and I think that's when the three and the four like we're neighbors right we're neighbors and um yeah I think um then the the the question asking of a four because what we want is also what we put out um it can be really helpful with the three and um we have uh uh uh one of our sons is is a three so emotional such a go-getter like he does have that um but he wants to be the go-getter and so the emotion it's it's like right there but he's trying not to have it so the moment that he gets in touch with that it's again just power there's just so much power yeah um and can the three then also be brave to say you know what this this is important this is part of me this carries information right if anything that emotion I wonder what made the person last week uh in your training get emotional because what was it getting in touch with right about maybe what they're passionate about like how how much was that person directed because of that moment of emotion right we don't just have emotion because we're hurt like there's so many messages with emotion so it's such a good place to pause and then like oh what is this telling me yeah we're a three to be courageous enough to pause again the pause of what is this telling me and then they can go get again yeah I circled that earlier because you had said it in a way and now I'm like where did I write that um the pause uh and I think there's other types in addition to the three that can just I think it's just like the space just like oh we don't have anything else to do right now except for share our feelings about each other.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

And you know and fours I think are really great at at providing that space and making it feel safe and you know setting aside the time for it. Yeah. Yeah. Before we hit record, I had mentioned I was with the sales team recently and they were looking at their team map and noticed, oh wow, you know, we have we don't have any for energy at all on the team. Um, what does that mean? And how could we maybe bring some of that to enhance what we're already doing? And one of the things that came up that I loved was they talked about storytelling in their in their sales process, uh, being better storytellers. And so I thought that was a great example of how do we not like, you know, superficially go out and look for a four just because we're missing a four, but what is it about the four and specific like a specific piece of that could enhance our team specifically with the storytelling? I'm just curious, what what do you think makes fours such good storytellers?

SPEAKER_02 44:59

I think we can be very in touch with ourselves and with our surroundings. Uh it it comes with such ease.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Like I can tell you in detail how I feel right now. What is life draining? What is life giving? What was really hard last night in a conversation with my husband, or um, I have an important weekend coming up, what I find challenging about that, I can tell you all of it. I I think most fours are just so self-aware. And and yeah, I I love it when that's listened to and and received. I think um, and I actually had a retreat this this weekend um that I put out with a friend of mine, and we did storytelling. And the way we storytell is um, and in all the retreats that I lead, people share a lot, and it's very vulnerable. You know, we have um no one is allowed to respond to anyone, we hold it, and that uh often makes people go even deeper into what they shared. Um, they understand better of what they shared and what it means. Um and we just hold it and we trust that someone is well, we trust that our presence is enough. We even what we call, I've been taught this many years ago, double confidentiality. It means that I cannot revisit what you just told me um at a later time in the cafeteria for the sake of how often do we say, hey, you know, I really connect it with what you shared, and then uh we go on a story about ourselves. That deflects completely what somebody just said. So we have a lot of boundaries around storytelling. So I'm not able to say anything about myself, and I am not allowed to give you advice, and also not like like coward advice, like hey, here's a book title, right? Like none of that, and there's something incredibly powerful um about that, yeah, and when you said about well, you know, we don't want to just bring in a four, it's so unnatural if we don't have it. What I would encourage any company is to look at how are the people in your company connected to the four? Right? Who is a three and who is a five? The four is a neighbor. Can you then invest in that three and that five for them to start exploring more of that side? Like I said, I feel it takes a little bit of a courage to take on the four-ness because it's I always say it's really not easy to be a four, which is a four thing to say. I really find it very complicated to be a four. I I yes. So it takes courage for a three or a five to really go there. But I would say, hey, within your company, right? Like the one, the one is connected to a four, the two is connected to a four. So I think companies have a lot more four-ness within their presence than they might be aware of.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

No way to think about that. Because there often are a lot of twos, um, often ones. Oh, sometimes not as many fives. And this is my experience. Yeah. Um, but just thinking about that connection and uh, you know, how how can people who are already on your team bring in some of that because of those connections or neighbors?

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Yeah, yeah. It is crucial how we listen. And I think I've had to learn to listen. It's now my profession, but um, many of us will need to learn how we listen well.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Love it. Yeah, yeah. I think that is something we can all, regardless of our types, take from the four. Um, sometimes with the four, you know, with each type, there's kind of myths or stereotypes. And some of the myths for the four, you know, they're all depressed, they're all dramatic, they're all artists, um, they are never happy, uh, melancholy, you know, it's core emotion. Um what is there, is there anything that you see that the rest of us types get get wrong about the four, or just anything in general that that we should know about being in a in a healthy relationship with a four?

SPEAKER_02 49:49

So um, you know, we have high highs and low lows. That doesn't mean that we're borderline, um, but we do feel intensely. So, yes, my lows are really low, my highs are really highs. Um, how any other type can help me is to help me balance that, right? Tim is great at that, is to, or he's learning to be really good at okay, Maddie's low. That doesn't mean that I have to let her linger there. Um, you know, we're learning how for me to be more balanced. I think I have a lot more to gain in that area. I don't consider myself necessarily healthy. It's that's crucial. Um, but we really are fun because when we're happy, we are so happy, right? It that's great. Um, yeah, we're not depressed all the time. Yeah. Also, I'm an interesting four because a lot of fours we're always told that we're so into art, into music. I am not at all. And or that we're an artist ourselves. I do not, I'm creative. I'm not an artist. I do write a lot, so I that there's a lot of creative expressions, um, but I'm not a painter. I I cannot paint the life of me. Um, I'm not into music. Uh music can move me, but not like I'm very mild in that. Um, so I think not all fours just need to go to museums all the time. Um, I am currently learning about art. Um, and I I have a dear friend. We go to the museum, we treat ourselves every quarter of a year. The way she's into it as a four is totally different than me. Like she just she's there. I'm learning. So not all fours are are like that. Um, so I want to get that myth out of there, also. I think that's important. Again, you know, when we are Malachani, because we certainly are, um even in the work environment, like it'd be great if people understand that about a four. Like often we thrive or we can move into a different energy when somebody understands us. And then we move on, we can move on very quickly. It's just about this this slight second where you know, okay, I'm I'm seen. It sounds so demanding when I say it all, but um, but often people um might think we're so heavy, but then it just takes this second and it and and it can change. That doesn't mean that it's anyone else's job, obviously, right? Um, yeah, and I do think we can follow flow. So it's such a hard balance of how do you let a four feel felt? Um, and I can imagine that hey, we're in the workspace. I don't want your your heavy self. So I I think I think it is a tricky balance. Can I just say like I don't have like a black and white answer here?

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Yeah, yeah. I think it's just kind of that awareness, like, oh, this is maybe where this person's coming from, this is where I'm coming from. Um, and what they need and what's gonna feel supportive might be different.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Yeah, and again, that joking can also help. There's your four ness that can totally wreck me out of it.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Um, I really enjoyed this and I I've learned so much. And I was very excited to have you on because you know, I don't get to talk to a lot of fours, but there is so much whether you are a four or you are, you know, looking to bring in some four energy to your growth uh development path. Um, so I really appreciate all that you have opened up about and been willing to share with us. Um, you've mentioned some retreats, some of the work that you have done. Um, would you tell us just a little bit about what you're working on right now and where we can connect with you and find out more about that?

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Yes. Um, so um right now I um, well, I proudly say I retired from my all my production work and I'm just a lot more quiet and contemplative. Uh so I'm a spiritual companion. So I sit with people about once a month. Uh, and I do the opposite of what a counselor and a therapist do, because there you go to fix your problems. You want answers, and I help people to live with questions rather than to always focus on getting answers. Um, so it's people that want to just be more self-aware, um, people who are really interested in the invitations in their life. Uh, and that could be very spiritual, right? That could be very much for people that who believe in God. Like, what is God doing? Um, so I help people to be where they're at, and I don't rush them to move forward because I think the here and the now carries a lot of information and carries, I think, the power to move forward in a really healthy way. Um, so I I love doing that, and I do that online and I do it in my home office. Welcome to my home office.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

It's beautiful for those that are watching that or listening to this on the podcast on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 55:19

And uh, and then yeah, I write uh and put up a lot of retreats and um all different content. I love doing silent retreats to just help people get really close to themselves, see what stirs up. Being silent for many people is just very, very scary. So I love when I notice what people are discovering when they're silent. It's beautiful. So often um during silent retreats, I also will do spiritual spiritual direction um with them. Um, I have a retreat um every year in January to help people focus on the new year. So we look really at what was last year like and what are the desires and the fears for the next year, just to not just have New Year's be here. We're coming out of a busy holiday season, and then here it is. So it's a place to pause. Um, and I have gazillions more. So I love, you know what I love about it, that I can be me, right, with my pause and my comfort with pain. Um, often people with pain come and to just be with them there and for them to not feel like, okay, this needs to be over. Um, that's great. Um, and I love that I can use my production side of me, my oneness, my threeness is just um that's great that I didn't retire from everything that that I had. So I I love doing what I'm doing. Yeah, and I write a lot like on my blog. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

So well, and where where can we find out about like the retreats, the the spiritual companion opportunities, your writing? Where's the best place to go?

SPEAKER_02 57:10

So, my name, I have a very foreign name for my business. It's called Trying to See Well. So I chose that name. Um, I told you I have a really rough past that still plays out in my life. So um I chose that name because I've learned and I'm still learning to see well, to see in the darkness, to see light in the darkness, not to fix, but to get through it. So my website is trying to see well.com. That's where they can sign up for uh my newsletter that I um send out every month with a spiritual practice, so a a place to to pause. Um, my Instagram is also trying to see well with dots um between the words, which you can get a link from my website. Um, and I'm a bad social media person. I have a hate-love relationship, very normal for a four because we live in envy, so I'd rather just not spend much time there. Um, but I do um now for trying to see well, put up a lot of walking practices that I do, contemplative questions every week. Um, I'm starting some Vincent Vengo this Friday, like quotes of him. So um, yeah, it's it's fun to hang out there now every once in a while, not too much.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Oh, okay. I am also personally excited to go check out some of those resources. So um we will I will make sure that I have your links for those. They'll be in the show notes. Um, but just again, trying to see well.com is where Maddie Christine kind of the hub for a lot of this. Um well again, I really appreciate you taking the time to to share this and be so open. Um, and I know that I've learned a lot, like I said, and I and I know that listeners um will also either feel really seen as a four or are walking away with a better understanding. So Maddie Christine. I hope so. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Thank you for being it was fun. It was fun to to spend time with you for sure.