SPEAKER_00 0:00

Are all type twos helpers? What does growth look like in real life for a type two? And what is stress or maybe just going through a difficult time look like for a type two? And and those can be helpful for those of you who identify as an Enneagram type two, and for the rest of us who have a type two on our team or somewhere in our life to know when to continue to encourage them where they're in that place of growth and maybe when they need some additional support when they're going through a time of stress and just kind of how to know what that looks like. We have a special guest today who, no surprise, identifies as an Enneagram type two to help us get into some of these topics and answer some of these questions for us today. And our guest is Betsy Jordan. Betsy Jordan is a former and highly successful organizational consultant where in the past she has advised executives and these world-class organizations and companies like Disney and Wyndham and AAA. And she now is the founder and CEO of her own boutique branding firm called the Betsy Jordan International, where she helps coaches, consultants kind of transition from the corporate world to launching branding, positioning, and marketing themselves and their own businesses. And so we get to talk a lot about um how she has seen her type two show up in both her former career and now as she's running her own business and how she's even seen her um abilities and just kind of personality awareness, self-awareness be beneficial in the workplace. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Betsy Jordan here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. How did you know that that Enneagram type 2 was the one out of all the other types that you were?

SPEAKER_02 2:22

That's such a good question. Like, how did I know? Like it to me, there's like two parts of it. It's like, well, when did I learn about the Enneagram? You know, and then as I was looking at the different options, like which one resonated with me? And I think the Enneagram is one of those tools. Like I, as a former organization development consultant and now a business coach, mentor for other consultants and coaches, like I know a lot about personality assessments. So I love personality tools. That that was a big part of my formative career. But what any the Ennegram was different is that it to me it presents more than just like what are your strengths and weaknesses? Like you might look at like a strengths finder, Myers Briggs disc or what have you. But Ennegram to me plays a unique special role, is it really talks about like the transformation journey, you know, like what is like your style of what's your what are your strengths, but what's your protection style? Like what is it that you use to protect yourself from feeling vulnerable? You know, what's your path of growth? And it kind of gives you like that custom path to me. And that's why I thought it was interesting. And then when I looked at the different options, like, well, you know, how do I protect myself? And it's like clearly it's being that people pleaser, making sure that I'm that person who comes alongside. So when it comes to like the plus side of my career, you know, I've always been that person where it's like I always imagine like where I position myself as an organization development consultant, is I never saw myself as the leader. I always saw myself as the right hand. And that's the way I've always positioned myself. So I knew leadership, like I was always interested in that realm, but it's like being at that right hand, what was really important. And that's been a theme throughout my whole career is I'm like the power behind the throne. I'm the person who's like, you know, behind the scenes whispering, like, do this, do that, you know. So um, but what kind of confused me sometimes like with the two is they always make pictures of like, you know, some woman who's like a helper, you know, with the muffins and the cookies and helping everybody. I'm like, that's not the way, that's not the way my two aspect shows up. Like, I'm not like the hospitality homemakery kind of person. So that was the one part that was like, is that really me? But when I really thought about it more broadly, you know, around what does it mean to be a helper, that's when it made sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

And I'm glad that you brought that up because I hear that more and more. The more of these kind of conversations we have or at workshops or just real life, um, other twos will will say some very well might relate to the kind of stereotypical description, but many more I'm finding are saying, like, I'm not the type that are going to bring the casserole over or I don't always want to help everybody. Um, and I have started um learning from a gentleman named Mario Socora, and he has an awareness to action Enneagram framework. And he teaches that the type two, rather than being the helper, um, he says they're striving to feel connected. And so when you look at it like that, more people can relate and and think like, oh yeah, it's I'm not like necessarily warm, fuzzy, friendly, outgoing all the time. Um, but I am maybe helping or doing some of that so that at the end I can feel connected to those that I want to feel connected with.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I also look at it from an archetypal standpoint is like a two is like that rescuer, you know, where it's like like the biggest thing that you can get me into action is like, oh, I have a need, you know, and it took me years to realize like your need does not equal my calling, like I'm not obligated. But it's like there's that rescuer thing, and that's where it goes into the shadow is you know, it's like the rescuer in the shadow can turn into control, you know, like you could see in the plus side, like somebody's drowning, you know, the lifeguard goes in and gets them. But then when your self-esteem is tied to helping, then you're gonna just like keep throwing people back in the ocean so you can keep, you know, rescuing them, you know. So I see some of that, and and it's like, so I know that that's a part of me that is like my strength, and then it's my Achilles heel at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Okay, I wrote that down. Your knee does not equal my calling. That's so good, Betsy. Um, I think a lot of other twos will be able to resonate with that. They're probably thinking, oh my gosh, you're reading my mind. I feel that. Um how I know you know, we've talked um off this particular interview, just kind of behind the scenes in the past. And then you kind of alluded to it just now with saying um how your self-esteem used to be attached to how helpful you were. Um, how have you noticed yourself growing through what you're learning about the Enneagram and then specifically this type two energy?

SPEAKER_02 7:13

I think that there what I love about the Enneagram is the dynamic aspect of the tool, you know. So there's a way that you can look at it more like, okay, so here's my pathway. And so um, I like what you said about like the tubing about connection. And if you even think about the number two, it's like one, two, you know, it's like I want connection, you know. So, you know, you can kind of see even it's a perfect number, you know, versus like perfectionist for the number one, you know. Um, I'm sure it's not on purpose, but I I just kind of visualize it like that. But I like I can resonate with the two, you know, in that standpoint. So, like to me, like there's phases, like phase one is just the awareness, you know. So, in terms of like when I'm I'm in my strength, you know, there is something about like I love to help people, and I could talk to you a little bit more about like how um how I've leaned into the plus and the shadow. Yes, but I like just the whole idea of that. But then seeing that when I'm stressed out, going into the eight, like I could definitely see that, you know, like I'm not really an angry person in general, you know, but like, but when you know, when you keep trying, when you're the two, it's like, oh, it's not working. It's like then it's like, or you're giving more than you're getting, all of a sudden it's like, uh, eight. And then seeing that pathway of going to four, that's when I really started to see, like when my growth started, um started really becoming more of a like when I don't know how to say this, like I really saw the challenge of going to a four and what that really meant to me when I was at this speaker workshop. So you and I are both a part of Carol Cox's community. And I remember there was, so I'm not that, I'm not a four. So I've never been somebody who's like, I have to be on the stage. And I remember at Carol's event, there was an initial exercise where everybody had to stand up and say, you know, when did you know that you were supposed to be part of the stage? I'm like, uh, never. You know, like I avoid the spotlight at all costs. Like, even though like I have a podcast, I have a YouTube channel and all of that, I'm hiding in plain sight because when you are out speaking, and if you're really a thought leader, you have to really tell your story. You know, it's easy for me to stand up and facilitate a group of executives because I I'm not there. I'm just there, I'm behind the scenes, even though I'm standing up in front of the room because I'm coordinating all of this and I'm drawing out everybody else's opinion. But if I'm standing on the stage and I'm sharing my own story, my own opinion, I felt like I wanted to die. You know, and they would do these exercises, you know, where it's like you have to stand up and dance in front of everybody. I'm like, oh, kill me, kill me now. Like I do not want to, but everybody else was like, I'm on the stage, look at me, and all of that. I'm like, oh no. And I knew that that was my growth point. Like, and I knew how hard it was, like how hard it is to get out of a two or uh evolve as a two into that four of like, I'm the person on the stage. I'm telling my own story. I'm not hiding behind everybody else's, I'm not hiding behind this power behind the throne kind of thing, or being that, you know, come alongside you and I'll help activate your potential kind of thing. I had a pect, I have a potential within myself, and that creates a panic. And that's when I really knew, like, wow, this is like totally my energy. I'm having a total like, I feel all of my protection and my vulnerability just like activated all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah. And what's interesting is um sometimes that arrow to your to your growth number can be called the neglected strategy because it's the one that you kind of get the most bang for your buck when you can take, you know, lean into that. But also it's a lot of times the one that you might resist the most. And so for listeners who may not be as familiar, that type four energy is a little bit more um focused on this yourself. How do I feel? And you know, what do I want? And what are my needs? Where two tends to be on the others, like how are others feeling? And so it almost feels like selfish to think, well, what do I want? What do I think? What do I feel? And um, fours are striving to feel unique, and that can again kind of go into um direct conflict with that striving to feel connected and kind of you know, almost merge with others. Um, but interesting, like you're saying, when you cannot be a two or you know, try to become a four, but pull in some of that energy to enhance what you already have going on, you can step on a stage and you can be the leader. And so I love hearing about that. Um in I I know in the work that you do, um, you have your own business. You have to promote yourself. You're talking about, you know, uh your podcast, speaking on stages. Um, what I guess I'm I'm curious for those of us who maybe are more kind of behind the throne type of leadership style, like the two, what have you had to do to either mindset or practice-wise to step out and kind of be that that front of uh the throne type of leader or in the throne type of leader? And I guess when, yeah, what that's my question, I guess, is how have you been able to do that for others who may struggle to always kind of want to be that behind the scenes support?

SPEAKER_02 12:29

That's a great question because that's from a marketing standpoint, more so than it's just like showing up in the work, you know, like like my two, my two is a strength. Like, I definitely know how to use my two in my coaching and my mentoring. So I work with consultants and coaches and I help them figure out like what their dream business is and help them put language and messaging to it. And so I had this like aha one time where I was having a variety of different clients. I was doing back-to-back meeting and I was asking them about their purpose. And because like I'm the shape shifter as a two, like I can become all things to all people, you know, so that I could help them. And I had like people from a variety of different like spiritual backgrounds. So I would be on with somebody who like had no spiritual background, and I'd be like, you know, you really need to dial into your own intuition and and tap into whatever it is that is the the business for you. And then I got on the phone with somebody who's a Christian, and that was a big part of them. Like, you just need to really ask the Lord, you know, what his will is for your life. And then I had an Orthodox Jew next, and it's like, you know, you really need to ask Hashem, you know, like what the plan and path is for you. And it's like, wow, this is like this is the upside. So from a coaching standpoint or a meant, you know, a coach or co consultant, you know, you can stay all hidden all these all the time because that's what you do from a marketing standpoint. When when it comes to marketing, what has been really easy for me is I just focus on service. So everything on my website, and you look at the way I do copy or the way that I I um I show up is about like, you know, you're struggling like this. And so I want to help you. So everything from marketing in my own mind is about like I'm helping you. So I'm creating content to help you. It's when I start to put my original content out there, and it's not even just my original content, it's just like I have all these ideas. Like, so I have a fun, I ironically, today we're having this conversation tomorrow. I'm like, I'm finally gonna write the book, you know, and it's gonna be the book that is about what I want to say. So I can to stand up on a stage and share what I want to share, share my story. That's when it's much more challenging. But if you're just a power behind the throne and you want to get out there, the best ways to reframe how you're thinking about marketing is marketing is just a way of serving people that you haven't met. So you just start to visualize, like, oh, well, you know, like that's why creating your ideal client archetype is really important is like for when at the beginning, when I was really starting to market, like I put a picture of somebody who represented that. And so whenever I'm writing something, it's like I'm just writing to someone, I'm like, I'm getting lost and helping them. Like I was talking to a client yesterday and they were talking about like they heard uh one of my podcasts when I told the story about how I landed this um this big contract and how I, you know, wound up like three times what their expectations were in terms of my fees. And they're like, you know, I hope at some point, you know, we're gonna get the, you know, the cojones that you have. And I'm like, it's not cojones. It's just that I knew that I I had to put in front of the client what would actually solve their problem. So it's about getting lost in a good way and serving your clients. That's gonna be like, if you're a two, you know, don't worry about it. Get out there because you can start visualizing service. But when you're when you're moving from that expert or sought-after expert status into the thought leadership, there's a pivot that it's like it's it requires something different that we, you know, as Carol would talk about to be a thought leader, you need to have a, you know, core story, a message that you universalize. So getting clarity on I have a message that comes out of my story and I'm gonna go share that. I think I want to die now. You know, where is the bed that I can crawl under? That would be amazing because I don't want to do this. It's like gizmo, like bright light, bright light, like no way, like get me out of there. You know, that's a different thing. And then you know that that's that moment that you need extra support, extra containers to overcome that because that transition is so big for you. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

You know, I think one of the things I'm taking away from what you just shared is the distinction between marketing yourself. And and I think that can apply to even if you're in a role, you know, you're not your own boss necessarily, but marketing yourself on LinkedIn or just it with your team and showing your, you know, the accomplishments that you have had um is different than the work that you're that you do, and that you don't have to always, you know, it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's kind of situationally, which it sounds like common sense, but the way that you articulated that was so clear. Um, I'm really glad that you said it that way.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Um to clarify one thing though, too, from a marketing standpoint, is there's a thousand tactics. So I don't do a lot of LinkedIn, I don't do social media, I hate social media marketing. Like that's not the way that doesn't fit my personality. Like I know I need to do it and I could do it better, but I'm never gonna be that person, like, hey, I'm, you know, I just did a client session, you know, a couple weeks ago. And I look at one of my clients, a total extrovert. She has a very different Enneagram style. Like she's got the picture in front of her. I'm like, I never would have done that in a thousand years. Like, I don't want, I'm not gonna share like moment by moment, but I have a YouTube channel and I have a podcast and I have a blog that supports my introverted personality. And so you don't have to do everything. So if something makes you feel you have to really discern is something making me feel uncomfortable because I'm struggling with the vulnerability of the task, or there's just this particular tactic doesn't suit me. And there's a thousand other ones. You don't have to do what everybody else is doing.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, because that can be very difficult to ignore sometimes when you're like, oh, everybody's on LinkedIn or everybody's on threads or you know, whatever the trend is. Uh, but to really understand, and that's another benefit of understanding more about yourself. Um, so you don't get kind of caught up or feel the stress or pressure of, you know, following what worked for somebody else, but may not necessarily feel good to you. Um, are there other are there other strengths that you see in yourself um from this type two energy that have helped you either in this career or your former career or just kind of in life in general, um, as a friend, as a partner?

SPEAKER_02 18:56

I think as I mentioned, the shape shifting has been beneficial. Like I think that we're, you know, like you heal others in the areas that you've been wounded. So I think that twos, you know, we don't we lose ourselves in other people, you know, and a lot of times we help because we're trying to help them so that we can get the help ourselves. But there is some strengths. Like, so some of the things for me is, you know, I have an ability to see in to other people and activate what's inside of them. Now, my growth opportunity is I need to do that for myself. Hence thus the transition into the poor is what do I feel? What do I want? But the strength of it too is I can, I, I can have an intuition and I get compliments sometimes from my clients where it's like, how do you have this empathy for people who aren't even in the room for with you? Like one of the things I do from brand messaging is I get into the heads of not just my clients, but their clients. And I can get into the heads of other people who are not in the room. So that's probably been my coping strategy as a child. Probably is the way I manage situation is, and this is what I was able to use in politics and being able to do political savvy, you know, with executives is I can get into your head and your motivation, I can get your head and your motivation, I get your head and your motivation and your head and your motivation. And then I could align it and find the through point. You know, like that's really great. Like that's a skill set that's very unique. So for me as a business person, I had the best compliment from a client she said yesterday. She's like, I really sense, she's like, I sense from you that's different in some ways from other consultants, coaches, mentors, or what have you. It's like you really care about me and you really care about my success. And it's and it's like, that is so true. Like, I'm not competing. Like this particular client, she has big aspirations. She just got this a major ward for her book, things that I have not accomplished um quite yet. You know, I maybe at some point I will when I after I meet with my book coach and but I don't have those aspirations in the same way, but I could truly celebrate her. And I think that that's a consistent theme that my clients will say is like, oh, Betsy really cares about me and she really sees me and she can and she helps me believe in myself. That's good. Where it's bad is when I lose myself, you know, like I can lose myself in specifically like with relationships, like it's been really hard this particular year. I became an empty nester, you know, even though my daughter has thankfully moved back, but she's much more independent. But my whole identity of being a mom has been completely trans, like just, you know, you know, thrown up. And it's been just so difficult. But then it's my growth opportunity. Like right now, I'm in my 50s. Like, this is the time, like trying to figure out like, what do I want? Like, I would have like these conversations with my husband, and it's like, well, where do you want to go for dinner? I'm like, I don't know where do you want to go. And he's like, You you get to decide. I'm like, where do you want to go? I'm like, I don't you tell me. And I hit this panic attack. I'm like, wait, I have to decide where do I want to go? Like, I never, ever, ever will be the one to say. To my husband, to my daughter, to anybody, like I want to go here for dinner. And it's like, wait a minute, I should really kind of think through like, well, where do I want to go for dinner? What do I want in my lifestyle? Not waiting for everybody else to create it for me. That's been uh extremely hard. Self-care. What does that look like to me? Like, what do I need to feel like my best self? Like, I need gobs of time alone. I need gobs of time reading. Like that makes me feel centered. I need that, you know, and and I want to take like two weeks off in the beginning of August to do the research on the book that I want to write. And it's like, but what about my clients? I have to wait to see what they want. And it's like, hey, wait a minute. I have my own business. Yeah, I could decide and I can make sure that they're happy. But you know, I don't know if that helps. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Or it does. Yeah, it does. Um, and I've also heard from other twos, just to kind of validate what you said, or even for the listeners, um, the empty nesting thing is hard for probably any parent. Um, but I hear from a lot of twos that comes up because of that, of all the things that we've kind of talked about. And so it's interesting to hear like you're you're in it and the things that you're doing to kind of navigate that and grow. Um, one of the other things that I'm curious about, if you have thoughts on, is um growth opportunities for two that we'll sometimes talk about is the uh what you just said, identifying what does self-care look like to you? What boundaries do you have, um, how to be more assertive and self-advocate. And then also, how do you find this balance between being supportive, but also holding each other or others accountable? And I'm curious how have you done that? Um, because sometimes for twos, I hear like, oh, I don't want to necessarily make someone else feel bad. And so giving any sort of criticism or putting up a boundary or holding somebody accountable can be difficult, not always, but sometimes. Um, just wondering if that's something that you have also had to experience and grow through yourself.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Uh growing through, like presentate, but that's like that's like more present tense lessons. You know, I think that's part of that journey. Um, so that some of the things that I've learned as of late, you know, as it relates to like the priority, like when I say like gobs of time alone, it's like it's learning how to sit in acceptance of the whatever it is that I'm feeling without judgment and without having to solve everything, like learning how to be in acceptance, like, okay, this is what it is. So if there's like a part of me, let's just say, for example, with the empty nesting, is accepting the grief that goes along with it. Like just instead of like, you know, Buddha talks about the second arrow, like there's the situation that happens and then there's the interpretation. And so the to me, there's like this weird paradox is of acceptance and fighting at the same time. And it's like where the acceptance is, is I'm grieving this phase of my life. You know, I'm like, if you look at some of my earlier podcasts and are and blogs and videos, like I talk about like, oh, I started my business because I had a four and you know, a four and six-year-old, or you know, like I had these little kids or I left Disney because like my daughter was like two and a half to about to turn three, and it's like that time period's gone. So there's an acceptance and a grieving over like the pain of like that's sad, you know. Like I feel sad. And then it's fighting the belief that my identity is actually that's a myth, that's a story. Who I am is not being a mother is a role and it's a part of me, but that's not my true sense. That's just something that is a part of who I am on this particular journey, but that's not my soul, and I have to really fight that lie. Like, that's not really accurately true, you know. Like my worth is not based on how people feel about me. Who I am is not based on that. So that's the part where it's like you have to do this paradox of I have to sit with actually the situation that happened. You know, I have to sit with it, and then I have to fight against the arrow. And I think that that would be the same thing is with others, is yeah, I feel really sad for what they did. And then I have to fight against the lie of what I attribute, of why they might have done what they did. You know, I have to check it out. And then it's being connected to your needs. The only way that you can hold people accountable is to know, like, this is what you did, minus my judgment or the story I made up. This is how it made me feel. And then going from the feeling to what was the need that I had underneath it, and then learning how to bring the need, not the accusation. You know, so that's where it's like some of it is on me is because I interpret things because I'm this, you know, this people-pleasing whore too, you know, where it's like, I'll just do everything. So I interpret if somebody's doing something, is like, well, you're not doing it like a two, you know, instead of getting into that resentment, it's like, no, I have to really connect in, like, this is the situation. So to me, there's like two sides of it is when I'm disappointed, I have to fight against my own myths and stories about my self-worth. But at the same time, when somebody else disappoints me, I have to fight against the myths and stories that I might make up about them and then be present with whatever those feelings are, which is the four. You know, the four is somebody who is connected to their feelings, but I think it goes beyond the feelings. The feelings are points to say these are unmet needs. So now I have to go meet those needs. I have to figure out how to meet those needs, and I can't meet those needs by helping other people meet those needs. I have to meet those needs for myself. That's the problem. Like, that's the essence of the dysfunction of it, too, is we're disconnected for our needs. We serve other people. Like how we serve other people are clues of the needs that we have that are unmet. And that was a losing strategy. That's a myth and a story that we carry around, is that I will only get my needs met by meeting the needs of other people. And at some point they're going to turn around and meet those needs. And that's not even accurate. So tuning into your needs, tuning into your body, you know, having time and space. That's why, in some ways, the idea of boundaries, you asked about what is boundaries. The best definition I have ever heard about it is boundaries is the distance between you and I where I can love you and myself at the same time. And so, for a lot of us, us as twos, is we don't even know what it means to love ourselves. So we create these weird ass boundaries. Oh, I'm sorry if I use this weird word, I'm sure you'll, you know, we create these weird boundaries that push people away that's at that's unnecessary. Well, like we push people out of our system, you know, because they're not doing what we want, because they're not meeting our needs. And we don't even know what our needs are. So, how in the world is anybody going to meet those needs? And we will never, ever, ever get our needs met by meeting those needs in other people, ever.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

So good. Um, you know, regardless of your Enneagram type, I think those are are very wise words. That's a wise perspective. But I know that um type twos, that was an excellent message to hear. Um, are have there been, because boundaries is one thing that we will talk about a lot with with type twos. Um, have there been any other resources or perspectives that have helped you that you would want to share here?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Um I don't know if like there's like, you know, I mean, there's obviously like boundaries books that you could have. Like I have a boundaries workbook, and you know, that's been helpful, but it's been more like at the tactical level. Um, I think that the like some of the biggest shifts, ironically, was um not from somebody talking about like, you know, how do you set boundaries? Um, I had Pooja Madan, who was on my show, and we had a conversation after my show. And she's somebody who talks a lot about building a soulful business and it's all real about like tapping into your intuition. And just having that conversation with her, you know, just helped me really see some of the ways that just like in that neglecting of yourself and like or the ways that I was like blaming myself. Like there's something about like this whole idea. I think like twos have a um of a core, another core myth is it's easier for me to blame myself for things that go wrong than blaming other people because that's a way of having control. Like if it's my fault, I could fix it, you know. But then at the some point, like that was cool when you were little, but then you grow up and it's like, well, that's not gonna work. Everything's not your fault. You know, everybody who's upset about, you know, with you isn't about you. And I think that's where I would say that the resources, I would, you know, I've been reading a lot about taking a contemplative path and intuition. So I've been reading a lot about, you know, with Richard Rohr, Pima Shadron, you know, working from different perspectives around like how do you tap into your own intuition and trust that intuition? I think that's more significant because then the boundaries will come naturally. Because when you start honoring yourself, you know, it's kind of like when you do a detox diet, you know, like when you start honoring yourself and honoring, you know, your body, your spirit, your soul, then anything comes into it that doesn't, you know, support that or feel good, you're gonna be like, eh, you know, I need to push that thing out. You know, this is not healthy for me. But you need to really create those boundaries around yourself of saying, I'm gonna take a break from worrying about everybody else. So for me, like big transformative time, we were supposed to have this conversation and I needed like some radical self-care. I went to took myself to Florida for like a month, you know, where I just moved from Florida to Denver and I took there for a month. And it's like, I needed that space to really tap in. Like, who am I? What do I want? You know, that's those ongoing questions. We all ask that. But if you're so wired to define who you are, like, well, what do you want? How should I dress? What should I look like? I'm such a such a two. If you look me up, you'll see all my all my names, like I all the phases of my life where I shape shifted into somebody else. I've had name changes. That's one of like the things that I used to feel ashamed about. But I've changed, you know, because I've been married more than once and I've had changed my name multiple times. And I even had costume changes, you know, like I changed my outfits. Like in one situation, I was, you know, I was Betsy Schwartz and I was like this, and then I became Betsy Climate and I wore like this. And, you know, it's that craziness where if you don't take the time to really, like not at a superficial level, like you're never gonna create decent boundaries until you really understand what your needs are and you really honor them, like truly, not in this like superficial sort of way, like I need people to respect me. You know, like that's not what what I'm talking about. Like, what is it like really at your soul level? Like, what do you really need? Like, I need solitude, I need time. I need, I need one, what support looks like for me is like I need this, you know, and really tapping into it. You're never gonna be able to set boundaries and because you're never gonna be able to ask what you really, really need. You're gonna only look at it through the filter of like, well, what would be acceptable for somebody else? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Or no, yes, it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. And the way that you said that um was very inspiring. So thank you for sharing that and being so open. Um, and it is interesting to hear because you were talking about, you know, your superpowers and that relationship building and being able to read other people and um, you know, be empathetic and understand. But then you're saying, you know, it it can go kind of too far in the opposite direction, and then you lose yourself when you when it's all the way on the other end. Um, my next question has to do with others that are not a type two. And so I I know for a fact, just on what I hear from from type twos, that they're going to really resonate and probably feel really seen and heard by a lot of what you've shared. But what about for the rest of us? Once a type two kind of starts on this growth journey and doing a lot of the things that you've talked about that have been helpful for yourself, is there anything that the rest of us should know that would be supportive to someone with type two energy, specifically at work, but in life as well? Um, and one example is, and the reason why I asked this question is because sometimes um we'll say we want we want to help somebody grow, but then it's like the very thing that they're growing, maybe we we don't like. So it's like, oh, we set we want this type two to be strong and self-advocate, and then they set a boundary and we're like, oh, well, I didn't mean for me. Um, I didn't I didn't mean that for me. Um, so is that what should we know as a non-to that would help the twos in our life feel supported?

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Um did you like remember? I think I sent you that link to that bohemian Rhapsody version of the of the Enneagram. Yes, it was so good. And then like the when they got to the twos, it you know, they're like, Do you need anything? Do you anything? And they're and then in the song, it's like, you know, we're okay, we're okay, we're okay. You know, and I think that that would probably be some of it. I think that depending on where the two is trying to grow, like if you're dealing with a two in the workplace and they're they're just not speaking up because they're people pleasing, you know, if I were their leader, I would I would go back to the same thing as I would coach somebody as a business owner around like marketing is speak up, but not from a place of like, don't freak somebody out and say, you know, you should really own your voice and be like that. It's like, you know what, you have something really valuable and insight that you need to share and that will serve us and it will help us. You know, so it's like, you know what would really help me out? Like if you really want to get a two activated, use the magic word help. You know what really helped me out is, you know, what sometimes I notice in a meeting you're really not speaking up. And I know you have an amazing idea. And there's so many times that I just want to jump in and, you know, like if I were the leader, I'd say, I there's so many times I want to jump in and illuminate your idea and and amplify it and and really play around with it with a group because you know, one-on-one, you share all these amazing ideas, but in the group, you just don't say anything. You know what would really help me out a lot is if you could speak up and then ask that person, you know, or put that person in a role, like for me as a facilitator, I'm an amazing facilitator. I could be up in front of the room. People think like, oh my gosh, you can, you know, like that kind of thing. So it's like hand them the marker and say, you know what, could you just keep, you know, can you facilitate the dialogue, you know, and making sure everybody's like saying it? But then at the end, it's like, so Betsy, you know, or you know, it's so oh, you know, so Sarah, you know, you've said all of these, you know, like well, at the end, after you summarize everything, it's like, so you just summarize all of that. That's so great. You know, is there anything you would add from your own personal experience, you know, and that kind of thing? You know, there's a difference, I think, too, between appreciation, like a two being really great at appreciating, and another part where they're using flattery to get, you know, to get um affirmation. So, like, so for example, I love your background, you know. So I could say it in a way it's like, oh my gosh, I love your background, you know, or I could say, oh my gosh, you know, you're the most amazing person. And oh, you know, it's like you just do everything so beautifully, you know, and it's like now I'm kind of crossing over the line, I think, between appreciation and becoming a fan, you know, and twos, you know, so if twos get into those danger categories rather than like I just see you, you know. So when twos do their thing and they're in their light, you know, just affirm it's like, wow, I feel really so seen by you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Um, you know, so those would be some other ways. I think if you're in a relationship, I think slight pushing, but I wouldn't push too hard on like my example of like going out to eat. Like, where do you want to eat? And then they're tempted to say, Well, I don't know. And it's like instead of saying, Well, no, you decide, you know, create another situation. It's like, you know what, why don't I do this? You know, I'm gonna come up with three ideas of where we can go to eat. Why don't you pick one? And it's like, oh, okay, because I know automatically that that's gonna be pleasing. The whole idea of the anxiety attack is I don't want to pick something that you may not want to go to. But if you flat out say, these are three things that I really want to do, why don't you decide? And it's like, oh, okay, I could decide with that. Or why don't you come up with three ideas and then I'll pick? It's like, okay, well, that's cool. So that's somebody who's just like four growing, I mean, two going into their two-ness. If it's a two, going in, oh, if it's a two and they're in the eight, you know, where they've like in disintegration, you know, like just know their needs are not being met, you know, like just know and just ask them, you know, like I if you're in the angry phase, you know, just assume positive intent. It's like it's like, oh, they're not trying to be like jerks about anything, you know, there's there's a problem there. But then if a two is going into the evolution into their four, then I would probably say is they need a container, like they need really like what helped me and has been helping me is like, you know, for example, Carol and speaking your brand and Diane, um, and the whole community. One of the best things about the Thought Leader Academy, uh, you were in the Thought Leader Academy, I think, after me, is the first day, everybody talking about why they were there and everybody had a story. Every thought leader had a story. Everybody had a pain, everybody had a situation. And it was like, oh, okay, I'm I'm normal that this whole idea of sharing this and putting voice to it makes me want to die. You know, some of it I might want to die a little bit more, but a safe container like that with people who are sensitive. One of my clients is Sarah Gleason, and she I she would not mind me sharing her name. She's getting ready to launch her podcast and she helps trauma survivors um turn their pain into like a platform of some kind, a book, a podcast, a social movement, whatever it is. And the way she does her approach to get somebody to activate that is really addressing whatever that is. And I think that for a two going to a four, because if you've spent a lot of time losing yourself on other people, I just think that trauma's gonna happen. And then the trauma creates the shame. So you need like safe containers. So just tread lightly trying to push a two into a four.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah. Okay, that that is helpful. I've learned a lot, even just my myself just then. Um, so thank you for sharing that. We've talked a lot about the two. I want to, as we start to wrap this up, just zoom out a bit to the Enneagram as a whole, because I don't want to leave here without tapping into some of your uh organizational development Disney experience. And I'm just curious, I know you didn't necessarily use the Enneagram in Disney, but you have that experience and that corporate environment, working with teams, working with leaders. Um in your opinion and in your experience, what is the benefit of getting to know your coworkers at this level? And it can be the Enneagram, but you know, any type of assessment or resource or way to better understand? Because I know sometimes people just think, oh, well, this is just the job. You go in, do the job, you leave. Um, but a lot of companies are spending money and time to to facilitate this uh this getting to know each other. Um, what is the benefit of that in your in your opinion?

SPEAKER_02 42:01

Um, it's never about the job. You know, like that's one of those big myths that are out there is it's nothing, it's nothing personal, it's just business. It's not true. Everything's personal. It was interesting as I got into my doing my podcast, I interviewed several of my former executive clients that I've worked with. And it was really interesting digging into their stories of like what informed their leadership style. So they were all amazing executives, but I wouldn't put like there's not one common list of things that that made them, you know, great executives. Like there was always something about like their perspectives. So one of my clients was Jim, and he was a twin, and relationships are really important to him. And he built his whole career around building relationships of some kind, you know, and that's what motivates them, you know, him like so. He might be a two, you know, there's a very high likely that that's the way he built it and bringing connection between groups has always been his thing. And so there's um there's something about his whole leadership philosophy. So I think it's beneficial is if I were, if I were going to take the enagram into corporations now, I would do an executive, I would do an executive retreat where we're not focusing on like how do we align to this common set of competencies, but it's like how do we really tap in? Because so Jim's very different than let's say Sarah, another one of my clients who I interviewed, and she's very much a seven. She's a she's a seven. You would love Sarah. So you both have the same name. She's like, she's the CHRO of Darden, and she's just like started to do this ballroom dancing thing because she was asked to do like a local celebrity dancing with the stars, and she got into that one. So whatever Sarah's doing in her personal life, she's fun, she's like the life of a party anywhere you go. That affects Sarah's leadership style. So people might on the surface say, Oh, well, you know, she's a party girl and that kind of thing. It's like, no, she's like unbelievably strategic, but making things fun and light is the way that she influences people. She has a very clear drawing. She knows exactly what she wants to accomplish, but she does not go after it in a bowl in a China shop sort of way. You know, she uses her strength. So I think it would be fun if I were going to do Enneagram with executives. You know, I might do it for a team building type of thing, just to understand, like when your teammates are in stress where they might go and, you know, and where, you know, what some of their strengths are, but where some of that might be. But I think it would be really fun is like, how does your Enneagram influence your leadership style and your leadership superpowers? You know, as I mentioned, my superpower as a consultant was my ability to get in everybody's heads. Everybody loves the fact, like, if you can go back and you can look through the through line of every single video testimonial that I have is Betsy got into my head and she organized my ideas and she helped me articulate things in a way that I couldn't. When I did that in corporate, it's like that's from a group. That was my superpower. Sarah's is like that. I had Mark on my show and he's has this balanced point of view. He must be like a five or a six, you know. Um, somewhere in that, I don't remember. I I don't, it's somewhere in the five or six, is like this balanced view of leadership. I never knew that when I was working with him. That would be so interesting because it influences them and it's so interesting when I talk about their stories, is this has been who they were their whole life. You can throw executive competencies and think that people are going to conform to it, but they won't because it's not their nature. You could say, here's some outcomes or here's some behaviors we want, you know, but a a natural stri somebody who's not a natural strategic thinker, somebody who's more like fear-based, or you know, or I don't know who the I don't know who would be that not the natural strategic thinkers. Maybe a nine, maybe I don't know which one. Is it not?

SPEAKER_00 45:52

You know, even if sometimes fours, because it's like, you know, like how is this is this how does this make me feel versus is this the logical thing to do? A seven. So you know, we could all kind of have that. Um, because it's like, oh, does this feel fun or is it like the right thing to do strategy-wise?

SPEAKER_02 46:10

But yeah, I I yeah. So not everybody's gonna become that. So that's why I would say everybody should be in themselves, and then you partner, you know, like you you fill your role and then you partner, you work with people. One of the things that I did, I did more get um strengths finder when I was at Disney. And one of the things that we did as an exercise was like, here's your strength, where's your non-strength? Don't look at them as weaknesses, they're non-strengths, and who has that strength now? How are you gonna partner together? How are you gonna collaborate to achieve the outcomes that we're looking for?

SPEAKER_00 46:45

I really like that because it's not like, oh, you need to work on these weaknesses or non-strengths. It's no lean into your strengths and then find the people to help support maybe where your non-strengths are or those gaps are. So I love that. Um, thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Can I say one other thing about that? Because I want to piggyback on that one before we leave that one. Okay. Um, one I think one of the worst things that we do in corporate is we talk about strengths and weaknesses, and everything becomes like a weakness expedition of some kind. It's almost like we're trying to make like everything's focused on your weaknesses when people are focusing on that. And that's why with the tools, I never ever call them weaknesses. I might call it, you know, like what is this attribute in the light or the shadow? You know, or you know, like you have strengths or non-strengths. So you have, so to me, there's a difference. If I'm a two, I have strengths and I have non-strengths, but then I have my two that is in the light and the shadow, and those are not exactly the same thing. It's not semantics. Strengths and weaknesses puts things into a binary good versus bad. But you know, they're the wheat and the tears. You're not gonna take the, you're not going to separate these things out. You're you're who you are as a as a two, like as I mentioned, like the shape shifter is a is me in the light. When I lose myself, that's me in the shadow. But this it's the flip side of the same coin. But uh the fact of the matter is, like, I don't, you know, maybe I don't have like I'm not really good at finance and accounting. You're not, you know, you could put that competency at that's a weakness in some ways, or maybe I would say that's a non-strength. It's not necessarily a weakness, it's just something I don't have. I'm never gonna have it. But I can hire an amazing finance team to help me, and now everything's complete. So that's where there's a difference. And I think the worst thing that corporate does is they shove these competencies, make these false statements of like this is who you should be. And then if you don't conform to this mythical standard, then everybody feels terrible. And then every time you have a performance conversation, it's not about it's not about like how can I support your growth in terms of your trajectory? It's how can I make you feel like crap because you don't fit this fake standard?

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Mm-hmm. No, I I it I like that. Um, one of the things we'll talk about, and I'm sure you've heard this analogy at some point, is like the the knife example. It's like the knife is the knife, the strength is the strength or the the thing is the thing. It's how you use it. You could cook a delicious meal or you could use it as a murder weapon. It's it's so it's like the energy is the energy and how you use it. Um, one of the the things that we'll do at our workshop is do a team map and we'll kind of plot where everybody is at the end of the day. And it's really interesting because sometimes people who kind of feel like a loner will make, well, maybe they're only like one or two in a group of threes or sevens or whatever. Um, it's like, wow, you guys are kind of the the superpower, the missing piece to some of this, like what you were saying. Um, so I I really appreciate that perspective. I'm glad you added that at the end. Um, as we start to wrap things up, I have a couple of rapid fire questions for you. But is there anything else about the type two or just understanding ourselves, understanding others that you would add that I haven't asked you to make this part feel complete?

SPEAKER_02 50:15

Um, I would just say is twos, just put your, you know, they talk about it in the air, you know, whenever we get on an air on a plane, you know, and every time every time you're on an airplane, it's like you got to put your own mask on first. We, yeah, that sounds fun. We totally get that. Um, I would just ask, like, well, what does that really look like to you? You know, like what does that really mean to you? And and really just do that.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Yes. And and and it's you don't have to, so that going back to that core mode of striving to feel connected, it's gonna be hard to connect with others if you're completely burnt out, if you don't have the oxygen. And so it's just reframing maybe what connection looks like or feeling connected, connected to yourself, so that then you can connect to others. So um I love that. Where can we learn more about you and the work that you do, Betsy?

SPEAKER_02 51:13

Um, you can find me at my website, um, www.betsy jordan and jordanswithawy um dot com. You can find me on YouTube, of course, and on my own podcast, which is called Enough Already, and it's on all the podcast platforms. Um, my blog is on my website. I got a ton of freebies. So if you are a corporate person and you're thinking about leaving corporate and you want to start your own business, I have um, if you go to my URL slash downloads and you can get a whole bunch of those. If you are somebody who wants to get into organization development and you want to get started, I do have a uh organization development toolbox that you can get all my tools. I'm no longer doing organization development consulting. I have retired from that several years ago, and I'm right now all focused on brand mentoring, positioning, helping people with their messaging for businesses. But I do have all of those tools. So you can go to, and I have a really cool offer for that one. If you want to get into organization development, you can go to the toolbox. So it's BetsyJordan.com slash toolbox, and I've created it as a name your price offer. So you can get my tools you decide, and I'm making this my give back fun, fun offer. So 50% of the profits go to Kiva, which is a micro lending organization. So it's building economic empowerment for yourself, helping make a difference in organizations, and helping create economic empowerment in other parts of the world. So that's been really fun. So I've been able to, whenever I get a sale, I get to go shopping on the Kiva site. It's like, hmm, I wonder whose need I can invest in. So I've been able to invest in lots of different people, you know, just building opportunities for I've been particularly looking at single moms because I was a single mom for a number of years.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

So that's really fun. Yeah, we'll have to talk about that later. Um, but I I love that that that give back portion of it. Um what does success look like to you now? How would you define success for you?

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Uh Joseph Campbell says, like, you know, the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. It's it's not just it's not just like one of those trite phases. It's a lot of work to become who you are. You know, it's a lot of inner work. Like one of the things that I feel like when we are, you know, going from success to significance or you know, going from a per profitable business to a purpose-driven one, you know, purpose is really all about, you know, like people wonder all the time, like, what's my purpose? And it's like, well, your purpose is encoded in you. It's kind of like the butterfly. This is why my butterfly, you could see my butterflies. What I love about the butterfly is it starts off as a caterpillar, and the caterpillar goes into the cocoon, you know, with all the adult templates of the butterfly, you know, encoded in it. And what happens in the cocoon is it literally digests itself of everything that is not the adult template. And all of the goop that's inside of, you know, the cocoon is the excrement. You know, it's like that butterfly digesting itself. And then that becomes the wings. And the only way that the butterfly gets out is through the struggle, you know, is that you can't, and the struggle takes whatever it takes, you know, and that's what success is is like I'm going through the journey, I'm willing to let go of my false self. I'm letting my real self emerge and I'm accepting that there's two things that create that transformation is there's great love and great suffering. You know, great love is starting to believe in the truth of, you know, your value, your worth, and and really starting to experience that. And then the struggle, because the struggle is what dissolves that false self. And that's what success is, you know, fame, you know, like that's ego fame. And that's why I think that whole journey of going back to this whole conversation of the two to the four, is it's my ego that's trying to serve everybody. It's my ego trying, you know, some of it is when I'm in authentic service. Like if I look at your wall and I look at how beautiful you are and the the flowers that are behind you, and it's like you're just this vibrant seven. And I just like I'm just an on appreciation. Now, if I try to like jump in and do more things for you than you didn't even ask me, like now I'm crossing a line, and that's not about you, that's becomes about me. And that's where you know, like that's the stuff that needs to dissolve that overhelping, the rescuing, that's all part of our crap, you know. Other people, you know, have everybody has their thing. We do, we all have our own crap. Yeah, that's our thing, that's our problem.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

So um, I actually have cards. Betsy and I, we are always like finding ourselves talking way more, way longer than we always scheduled for. But one of I'm like, this is why. Um, all of my Enneagram thank you cards have that Joseph Campbell quote, the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

Oh my gosh, she does have so much a comment.

unknown 56:06

I know.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Um, okay. And speaking of quotes, last kind of fun question for you is is there a book that has just kind of completely changed your life work-wise or growth-wise, um, or something interesting that you've read recently that you would recommend to our Enneagram MBA listeners?

SPEAKER_02 56:25

My God, I'm like in an obsessive reading phase right now. So it's hard for is you're asking me to like pick which is my favorite. I know, I know it's so hard. Like, like I don't know how to to I don't know how to pick like my favorite children, you know, like there are so many of them. I would say, like, when um like I'm obsessed with the hero's journey, you know, the heroic journey. I don't know if Joseph Campbell's book, you know, just you know, nails it from that standpoint. There's a whole variety of things. I would just say if if I were gonna recommend a book is just go with like go look at a book and see what what label jumps out at you, because that book is speaking to you at that particular time. You know, one of the things that I've been meditating a lot about is we're not supposed to read book, we're supposed to digest books, you know. So it's like whatever book you might have had that really speaks to you, um, go back and digest it, take notes on it and really just take the information and take it a couple clicks a little bit further, you know, is whatever the passages that just jumped out of you. Because, you know, whenever you read, like something jumps out at you, but interact with it. You know, I could point out like a million, like I'm looking around my office and it's like, I got a ton of books. Like I'm in a huge research mode, you know, or it's like I can't even, I can't even pick, you know. I'm I love Richard Rohr. I've been reading Pima Shadron, that's been really interesting recently. It has nothing to do with specifically the Enneagram. Richard Rohr did write a book on the Enneagram. He did, yeah. Um, you know, but it's not specific to the Enneagram, but I think it's all part of that, you know, anything that helps you grow.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

Well, Betsy, as always, it is so fun um selfishly to get to talk to you. But I know from this conversation, listeners are are really going to enjoy it and um have a lot of important takeaways. So thank you for being here. Um, anything else that you would add before we call this episode complete today?

SPEAKER_02 58:19

No, I just love what you're doing. I just love your energy. I love your style. I love your passion for this tool and using it as a form of personal discovery and to help organizations. And I just think that what you're doing is amazing. And I'm just honored, honored to be on your show and to be able to have you on my show and be able to amplify your work because it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yes, I was gonna say, well, Ditto, so I I appreciate you and all that you do, and it's been really fun to get to know you. So thank you um for being here, Betsy, and we will see you around. Thank you. When I'm not planning for the next episode or getting to interview the next podcast guest, I'm probably out doing an Enneagram team training or a group workshop experience. Because while Enneagram MBA is a podcast, it is also a team training company, which means whether you have a team of four or 40 or are planning an event for 400 people, there is an experience that is waiting to be created just for you and your team or organization or event. And I'm gonna invite you to start that process over at enneagrammba.com where you'll be able to check out some of the initial ideas and options and then reach out to get in touch to start planning your own.