SPEAKER_00 0:01

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. We have a very special guest today. I am joined by Jen Pasticas, who is the founder and CEO of Brave Women at Work. She is also the host of a podcast under the same name. And she is an author, not one, but two, with a third book coming in a Brave Women at Work series. So we have Brave Women at Work Lessons in Competence and Brave Women at Work Stories of Resilience, which is a bestseller on Amazon. So, Jen, welcome to the show. It is an honor uh to have you, and I'm excited for this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yeah, me too. Thank you. Thank you so much, Sarah, for having me on. I'm really excited to dive in.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Before we we get into kind of what does being brave at work look like and how that might be different for each of us, I know that in addition to your bio, something that I left out was that you identify as an Enneagram type one. So I'd love to know how did you realize that that was your type?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Well, I've always been into self-developed, you know, personal development, self-help, they used to call it, right? So I picked up like a really like old school book a long time ago. I wish I could tell you the book name. I I can't. I would have to be at my house and like looking through all of the old books, but I saw type one and I think you or someone else I've talked to on the Enneagram. So it's like once you've kind of gotten to that, I don't know, I kind of got to that, oh, that's me. And then I knew like right away after I read that chapter. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm a type one. And then I even read through all the other chapters and the different eight types, and I was like trying to find myself in other types, but then I came back and I was like, nope, that's me. So it really came from like years and years ago reading a book, and then now just being obsessed, like honestly, like having you on my podcast and other people on the Enneagram. I'm just really interested in this topic. So that's how I found out.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

I yes, I was gonna give a shameless plug about my interview with you. So I'll link it in the show the show notes. Um, but I had the opportunity to talk to you about stress and strengths using the Enneagram. So that was a really fun conversation that we'll link. Um, and you know, I love the your typing journey story because oftentimes it's starting out with like a quiz or a test. And sometimes we can kind of latch on to those. And so when possible, my first recommendation is always to read about the types to help you start to narrow it down and weigh that. So I love that that was part of your story. Um, so the type one, when we put on our type one lens, we kind of see the world through we're striving to be perfect, and then we kind of see the world through what needs to be fixed, how can I make this better, what's good, correct. Um, I would say if type one had a book, it would be good to grade. Um, and they bring a lot of strength to a team, to their leadership style. They tend to be very diplomatic and organized and rational and emotionally controlled and inspirational as well, because they have that vision for how can we make this better? But then they also have that discipline and structure and kind of process-oriented way of thinking to make that vision actually come to life. So I'm curious, what have you noticed in your own life, maybe your own role with some of those type one strengths, how you've seen those show up and help you be successful in what you do now?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah, so a lot of what you said comes through. So, you know, there are some things like organization. I'm just naturally a really organized person. And, you know, don't hate me, everybody, you know, like it just comes through. It just happens. So whether it's at home, I'm just really systems-oriented, that's just kind of how my brain works. Um, or at work, really hyper organized. Um, so that's the first part. It actually makes me feel calmer as a person. So when things are disheveled, I feel a little bit out of control, which I know is the thing about the type one. Um, so there's that. And I would also say um, because of that, I have the ability to like lead projects or, you know, and I have a team in my corporate work. Um, my all of my teams, I've got, I don't even know how many fair uh departments, I think it's four or five now, but I've got about 11 people in my downline in my area, and just really being able to kind of um multitask and kind of move the ball from one to the other because I'm organized uh mentally and in my physical space, that really comes out. Um, the other thing is that I'm really clear about my intention. I'm a real straight shooter with people and sincere, not that other types aren't, but I'm just really sincere. It's like you get what you get, you know, with me as a type one. And I'm very on like the moral code, it's like really high, right? So my ethical stance, you know, if I tell you, hey, I'm gonna really work with you to get better in this area, like I try to follow through with my people to really work on that particular area and come through and I guess walk the walk and talk the talk. So those are some things that kind of at the top of my head where I see my type one come through.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah, you know, um, there is uh a superpower that I mean, many superpowers each type has, but there's a particular superpower we'll pull out of the workshops and kind of focus on. And for the type one, the one that we look at is their ability um around precision and just to be like really detailed and really precise with like you were saying, whether it's instruct giving instructions, organizing their life, the just the discipline, but the ability to see those details. So uh that is you're not alone with that one. Um now, sometimes we'll talk about so those are strengths, and then um we'll talk about not weaknesses, but it's like when that strength is maybe turned up to a level 10 uh for a long time or in certain situations where maybe it only needs to be a three. When those strengths are overused, sometimes our ones can be a little overly critical, um, maybe a little impatient with others, you know, not walking the walk and uh you know, judgmental, maybe some black and white thinking. Others might experience them as kind of rigid or um, you know, more task focused than people focused, which there's a time and place for all of these. And so that's why we're talking about kind of strengths overused at times. What does and um and you know, just share what you want to share, but what does that look like for you when you notice some of those one strengths are being overused?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Oh yeah, I can give you that's a whole other podcast. So I I have no problem being vulnerable. I share about this. So I went through burnout in 2019, and I think that's really when the type one like gets overused to the extreme, right? So where the control becomes like um and the perfectionism becomes like gripping and almost crippling, I've I've been there, I've absolutely been there, or the black and white thinking, you can't even see any shades of gray, right? Where um, as an example, my daughter, another type one, I think. We'll see. Like she's only 11, but she's like, Well, if I don't get an A, I failed. And I'm like, Oh no, like this is not a good size. So, you know, again, it's it's not bad to be a type one, but I'm seeing the perfectionism come out. And so I think that black and white thinking, um, the need for the control and the overwork. So I'll compensate by overworking and those those um those coping mechanisms, you know, they work until they don't. And so those are some of the ways that it's shown up in my life. And just having people that love and and care about me say, hey, is there a different way, you know, a different way to see this? You know, like what if it wasn't this way or this way until polarizing? What if it was like in the middle? What would that look like? And then I think the last piece is just I have had to learn grace and self-compassion um through the work of Brene Brown and um trying to be super generous with myself because as a typewine, I can be so rigid in my own expectations for myself and other people.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, we talk about um if you think a one is being overly critical or controlling of you, like you don't even want to hear what they're saying to themselves because it's 10 times as harsh. Um, because you just have that level of of excellence, that standard for everybody, but it's even higher for yourself. It tends to be higher. Um okay, so this is um, so once we identify our Enneagram, our top Enneagram type, the next uh step in our Enneagram MBA process is to then look at our resource points, which were this the one is the four and the seven. And the seven for the the one is kind of known as the neglected uh strategy because our type one striving to feel perfect. Our type sevens, which I identify with, are striving to feel excited. And for our ones who value control structure, kind of let's plan ahead, make sure we know what's going on. That kind of spontaneity, maybe like over excitement, can kind of almost feel like reckless sometimes for the ones. And so that's what the one that they tend to push against the most. Ironically, uh, we we all have one of those. And for the one, that tends to be the place where they can kind of get the most bang for their buck as far as growth goes. Um, not becoming a seven, but incorporating more of that, you know, spontaneity, joy, allowing yourself that excitement. Um what have maybe, and if it's tied to type seven, great, but just out of curiosity, what have been some of the biggest growth insights that you've noticed in yourself with that type one? I know you kind of talked about Brene Brown and embracing vulnerability and and letting go of some of that perfectionism. Anything else coming up for you?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah, so um a couple things, you know, you said experiencing joy and leaning on that the seven, right? So I've learned that as a type one, um I can kind of just like move on to the next and move on to the next. And it's like kind of all like, you know, the cause or what I'm working on, and there's like no fun. Like there's no joy. There's no, you know, and it that sounds terrible, but it can be, right? Because we are really rigid. And so I've learned that ways that I can release that fun, like, you know, after becoming um a work, you know, a mom and a working mom, like, you know, kids make you be in the present. So I've learned that, you know, I can have joy as long as I'm in the moment, like I'm not tethered to my cell phone or you know, working or trying to multitask, like you can find real joy with your children. So that's one way that I do it. Um, I also love to travel, and I find that travel, you can plan as much as you want, but somewhere spontaneity is gonna come in. Like you're gonna miss the the Uber, you're gonna miss the flight, or whatever, whatever. You're gonna have to pivot your plan. It's not gonna go perfect. That always gets me out of my head as well. So, in addition to like the tools, like I, you know, I've read all the Brene Brown books, I've you know, dove deep into type one kind of work for myself, self-compassion. Those are some of the other ways that I try to experience joy and being more present in my life and not just having like that agenda of like, you know, the quote unquote reformer. I can also have joy and have lightness in my life as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yes, I love that. So well said, so well said. Um, well, I know that kind of the crux of the work that you do in your career and leadership coaching is around this idea of how to be brave at work. And now I know you uh specifically work with women, but I think your message can apply to all people. Um and I'm curious when we talk about um being brave at work, I'm in um I'm curious to hear what you have found kind of tends to be some of the biggest challenges or obstacles um as far as showing up that way or or or being brave in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Yeah. So what I find commonality is just like lack of voice, um, where you're not speaking up or you're not being authentically true to who you are because you don't think that'll be accepted. So what I'm doing in my work with my clients is really looking at, okay, number one, foundationally, what's important to you. So we'll do values work, which you know, it sounds like, oh, you know, everyone's done values work. Not really. I mean, a lot of people don't really know what's important to them and what they want to speak up for. And so then after that, we talk about communication and how to approach communication. And I refer to it as like standing in your power. So I'm talking about how do we deliver the message, how do we ask for the raise, how do we speak up, even in a meeting? Because there are people that will say, I can't do that. And I'm like, well, I'm there to kind of open that door and that window and ask, Well, why can't we do that? Like, how could we do that? So you feel like you're gonna get more respect or have more power at work or you know, get more influence at work or get a promotion, whatever the end goal is, get paid more is obviously a big one as well. So that's what I find is that they the person and and a lot of the women I work with are ambitious um overachievers, similar to me. But what they'll do is they'll say, Oh, I'm gonna let the work speak for itself, but they're not advocating for themselves. So then I'm like, okay, how can you claim your voice? And then I'm giving them tools to say, okay, we're gonna claim our voice. And then that can be scripting, role-playing. Um, I customize a lot for the clients. And then the last piece is not owning the voice, it can what holds them back is all the things that you also work on, like perfectionism, imposter syndrome. So there are other layers in there that we tried to kind of manage and strip away so that their voice and who they truly are can show up at work, and that's being brave.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yes. Um, I forget what book I was reading, but there were it was some marketing book, and they were talking about an FBI negotiator, CIA negotiator. And he said that he never tried to convince anybody to do anything. What he did was like look for the obstacles and try to remove them. And so I think that that's important. What you're saying is, okay, this is where I want to go. And it's easy to be like, oh, here's this is where I want to go. But then it's like, what happens, like the gym? I'm thinking of like, oh yeah, I'm gonna go to the gym, but then it's like your schedule, your eating, you know, all these things. And so identifying what might get in your way so it's not a surprise. And then you're prepared to kind of navigate through or around those things. So I love that. Um what do you find really um kind of nourishes or cultivates bravery in the workplace? Um, and I'm thinking kind of from, and you can answer this however you want, but I was kind of thinking like from like an organizational level, like how do we cultivate that? Um, maybe an individual manager, how can they cultivate that with their team? And then as an individual who may or may not have the support of their manager or their organization, how can they cultivate bravery?

SPEAKER_01 16:04

So, what comes up for me here, let's go from like the manager and the organization, but the manager is like the most direct connection to the employee in that space, right? So I think the idea of psychological safety is huge here. So if you're in a team or in a manager-employee relationship and you don't feel safe to speak up and share ideas or share who you really are, it's really gonna be hard to be fully brave and you know, and speak up for things you believe in or share ideas because you don't feel safe to do so. So I think for the manager to create that environment within their team that number one, he or she puts their pants one leg at a time on every day, like the employee does. So I think that, you know, I remember when I was in my really early in my career, I was terrified of like, especially like C-suite management. Um, and I'm in the banking industry. I was so scared because it was like almost like they were otherworldly. And I think that I I when I'm working with my teens, I don't want that. I want them to know that like there are good days, there are bad days, like I'm a person just like them. And then I'm managing to the whole person, not just to the task. I think that's a huge difference between management and leadership. So I'm managing to the whole person, and I want them to be able to come to me and say, hey, well, I have this idea. Could we turn it and pivot it this way? Just because if I'm myopic and only see my way, then I'm not gonna be a great leader and I'm not gonna foster other people to be brave because they're too afraid to speak up. And so I think that goes across the board. Managers and employers, if we can do that, we will see more brave people in the workplace.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

So well said. I was reading something about uh just the like the validation and uh what did you say, psychological safety. Like this may I may not see it or I may not understand it, but like I'm gonna validate however it is you feel and um you're you know, you even opening up to attempts to try new ideas, like you were saying. Um, all of that, you know, plays into that and and it makes the team, the workplace um that much better and ideally productive. Um what about is there anything uh well let's talk about the individual. So, you know, I see the world Jen through the Enneagram now. It's kind of like the this the uh I think there was a t-shirt that was like when Hamilton was big, I see the world through Hamilton lyrics and I see the world through Enneagram types. And so when I'm thinking about um how can someone an individual be brave or what does that look like, I think for some it's gonna look one way, and then for others, like that may come easy, and so it may be something else. So for people who maybe, I'll just give you a couple scenarios and I'm thinking of a specific type here, um, but obviously we can all struggle with this. So kind of with the energy of the two, and sometimes even the nine, um, they have kind of a desire to really feel connected. And so sometimes they will kind of default to people pleasing and wanting to be liked and putting that over other things. So for somebody who may be kind of focused on that or struggling with that, what does maybe bravery look like, or what could somebody in those in that situation do to be more brave?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

So, what I would say is really think about and check in with yourself, right? Because your default and I've been there too. Uh, people pleasing is something that I have, you know, struggled with even as a type one perfectionist. I think they almost feel like they're cousins, like they go together. Is I have to sometimes check in with myself and take a moment to say, okay, what do I really want or what do I really believe in? And so I have learned that when and I also struggle, I have like the laundry list, I've struggled with boundaries too. So all of us like the ladder of all the things. Yes. So what I have done as a recovering people pleaser and someone who may like struggle with boundaries. So if someone comes to me and asks me for a task or ask me about an idea or whatever, sometimes they'll be like, hey, you know, that's a really good question, or hey, thanks for the request. Can I get back to you tomorrow? Or can I get back to you in a little bit? The reason for that is my default as that people pleaser may be like, Yeah, I I agree with you. Yeah, I'll do that thing. Yeah, I'll take that task on. And then I'm silently resentful or feeling like I didn't value myself because I didn't speak up or I took on a task that really wasn't mine to take on, or what have you. And I've done that for years and years and years. So I guess the one thing I would say is have that person just check in with themselves. Like take the time. You know, it's interesting, like when we tell people we, you know, do type a training for presentations, right? That that purposeful pause. We think it's like forever. Like that, it's like, oh, it's so long and it's uncomfortable. It's only uncomfortable because you think it's uncomfortable. Most people don't even notice the pause. It's just like, oh, they took the time to really think through. I would just say for a people pleaser, give yourself the grace and the time of being like, I want to think through what I really believe and what I really want whenever possible, so that when you are ready, you can deliver an answer that feels true to you.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Oh, that's so good, Jen. That's so good. Okay, so we have time for one more on this. So let's say, um, and I think we can all relate to this. This is coming from a place of the type three energy or maybe the eight, but all nine types I think struggle with this. And that is the struggle to slow down, maybe take a break, uh, maybe pull a bit away from work because it feels like, oh, um, it's For the type three, like their identity can sometimes be wrapped up into their job title, the amount of money, the success that they have. And so to slow down or do something different outside of work feels like, oh, who am I as a person, or what will other people think? But I know all types, including one, um, kind of have that work hard mentality, maybe always be working. So, you know, what does being brave look some look like for somebody who maybe needs to slow down a little bit? Um, but that might be a little difficult.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, I learned this one the hard way. So um I that's what I for out of all the other types, when I was like initially reading about it, Sarah, I read and I thought I was a three for a while. And I was like, because I am very like that. Um, but I know I'm a one, but I thought I was confused and I was thought I was a three where I can't stop. And so what I would ask or challenge that person is after you get through a project or a big accomplishment, whatever, is again to take that scheduled pause before you take on the next thing. Because I I'll never forget this. When I was getting done with my, um and it's funny, it goes right with your the title of your business, NE Gram MBA. When I was literally done with my MBA, right? My master's of business administration, everyone was all celebrating. And I had this like, I was like crestfallen, which it's like I was super confused. And the reason it was is because I was like, oh now what? It was like I no longer had the dopamine hit of like running a million miles an hour to go and go and go and try to get this a master's degree. And then I was like, oh, well, now what do I have to take on so I get that dopamine hit again? Right. That's like addiction right there. But I will just say that if you can take that moment to celebrate and to train yourself to be like, how can I celebrate this? How can I build joy into the like the staccato of accomplishment and joy and accomplishment then joy? So it's not just this reel of accomplishment after accomplishment after accomplishment, I think will go a long way in really enriching your life. And so that's what I try to do, even as a type one.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Okay, I love that you said that, just kind of that up and down, or not even up and down, but just kind of switching gears at times. And I'd be curious if you if you have anything else to add to this, I would love to hear it. No pressure, if not. But one of the things, again, when we're talking about growth and how it looks different for each person, the other part of that in being a supportive teammate or maybe being a supportive manager or leader is recognizing when somebody in this case says no, uh, when we're talking about boundaries, or somebody takes a vacation and doesn't answer their email. Sometimes that growth for that person is kind of inconvenient for us because it's like, no, I benefited when you kept saying yes, or I benefited when you answered my email on your vacation and kept working. But it's like, well, we talked about that you're gonna work on these things. And so it's like remembering that that person is working on those things and that takes time and to call it out and to appreciate it and congratulate them or whatever the word is. Because um, if you know, if you say, Well, you didn't answer my email on vacation, and then it's like, well, that person, I mean, that's gonna, you know, do damage and then it's gonna take forever for that person to feel like they can take a break. And I know that there's different situations like that. And so just, you know, thinking about your leadership style or being a supportive teammate, that's important too.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yes. So I encourage my own employees that when they're on vacation, they're really on vacation. And so um, I've had periods where, you know, before I had kids, I would be like, Well, how come they're not answering my email like after hours, you know, because I didn't have kids and I was working all hours and had no boundaries, right? And so, you know, it took me having kids, it took me burning out, it took me learning a lot of things where I was like, whoa, you know, that's called lack of boundaries. And so I think we need to celebrate when those people are having those like growth, you know, those growth edges and those growth moments. And just because it inconveniences you, I think the reason that we're frustrated is because it shines a light on where we need to grow. And so it almost I would say turn it back on yourself. If you're frustrated that person isn't responding to your email at 11 p.m., you need to ask yourself, like, is this healthy for me? You know, and sometimes maybe it is, like if it's like on an isolated basis, but sometimes it's like, whoa, it's I'm frustrated because I need to do some work myself.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Love that. Yes. It's like, okay, well, what's going on with me then that I'm triggered by this? Well, I appreciate so much of what you shared, just about your own kind of personal growth journey and with the type one, and then sharing some of your expertise and insight and experience about showing up at work and and and being brave and what that looks like. As we wrap up, uh, before we before I get to the question about where can people find out more about you, I know on your you've talked about kind of starting from the bottom. So I know that your career started as a bank teller in the financial industry. And then over the last 20 years, you've kind of moved up the ladder, senior VP of business development, you now have a you know a business, you're an author, you're a podcast host. For somebody who is looking to kind of grow, expand, move up in their own careers, whatever it might be, what do is there a piece of feedback or a saying or or something that you lean on or have found to be really helpful as you have have found success in your own career?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah. Um, so I would just say anytime that you have an opportunity, just just ask, right? Just just ask. So I'll give you just a just a two very quick examples. Number one, when I was um I lived in France on my senior year of college because I was a double foreign language degree for undergrad. And I was a bank teller at that time, Sarah. And I crazily said, you know what, maybe they'll keep a spot for me. And when I come back, you know, after graduating from college, I'll at least have a job to come back to. So I wrote a proposal and I said, Hey, you know what? I've been a good employee, and I asked a question and I said, Hey, will you keep a spot on the teller line for me available when I come back like 10 months later? You'd think like they'd be like, Yeah, thanks, but no, thanks. They did. They did, Sarah. It's like just by me asking, they did. So there's a great example of like, even though you think it's crazy, even if you don't think they're gonna say yes, who cares? You have nothing to lose, just ask. And so that ended up my my career. Um, after I got back, I, you know, was still a bank teller, and then shortly thereafter I got licensed um as a financial professional, financial advisor. And then here you are, you're like 20 some years later, you know, like just like you know, putting, of course, the hard work in, but asking in those critical junctures. The other uh final example I'll share with you um is I wanted to get coaching certified. And I was like, God, I really would love to get corporate sponsorship for this because I think that it would make a big difference in what I do as a leader in my corporate career. And you know, getting corporate or getting uh professionally certified for coaching, some of these programs are pretty expensive and they take a long time. They're like mini master's programs. And so I did the same thing. I wrote up a proposal and I said how this is gonna improve like my, you know, my performance. And I got sponsorship, I write corporate sponsorship to get coaching certified. And so if I would have just in my own mind said, oh, no one's gonna do it, or let my perfectionism or imposter syndrome stop me, I wouldn't be where I am. So I would just say, just ask.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Oh, that's like you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, kind of in real life examples. So I love that. Um, okay, so I know on your website, um, you have kind of one of the bravest things I think that we can do at work is to ask for uh more money, to ask for a promotion. Um, you have 10 tips, get paid 10 negotiation tips. Um, that's a free download on your website. So I'm gonna link that because I thought that was really good. Um, but I would love for you to share with us for anybody else who's wanting to learn more about the work that you do, how to potentially work with you. Where is the best place for us to find out more about you, Jen?

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yeah, thank you so much. So you can go to bravewomenatwork.com and that's my website. You can also go to the podcast with the same name, Brave Women at Work, wherever you get your podcast. And then I'm super active on LinkedIn. So you can just find me there either under my company name or uh my name, Jennifer Pastikas. Would love to connect uh with you and uh share thoughts there. So it'd be great to connect. So thank you, Sarah.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Okay, so we will connect all of those. And as I always say, I mean, I know our guests just love hearing from you listeners, um, whether it's something about the type one or um a takeaway that you're you're uh leaving with this episode, it always means a lot. So definitely get connected with Jen. Um, and then as we complete this episode, Jen, is there any final words, anything else that you would like to share that I haven't asked you about that would make this episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_01 31:33

No, no, nothing comes to mind, but I just want to thank you for your time and the work you're doing with the Enneagram. I think the Enneagram is such a special tool, and I wish that everyone knew about it. So thank you for the work you're doing in the world.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

I well, I'm biased, but I couldn't agree more, Jen. So thank you for saying that. Uh well, I appreciate you being here. It I mean, it really is with your experience and your work and all that you do. Um, it truly is an honor, and I appreciate you giving up your time to share with us. And uh it sounds like we'll we'll see you over on LinkedIn.