SPEAKER_00 0:01

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. Well, welcome back to a new episode, to a new season, to a new year. If you're new, welcome in general. This is actually a great spot to start in. Um, we are going to be taking it back a few steps and relaying the foundation for how we talk and teach about the Enneagram. I shared in a lot more detail in the last episode that we did for last year in the last season. Uh I think it's titled Our 2024 Enneagram Methodology. And I talk why, what it what it is, um, but quick summary to catch you up to speed. I do recommend jumping back there if you're interested in understanding what the heck we're doing or what we've been doing and going to be doing more officially of now in that last episode. But we have officially adopted here at Enneagram MBA the awareness to action Enneagram methodology. And we will be using that officially in our workshops, which you already have incorporated it over the last year or so. Um, I personally received my certification, completing their level one um certification uh with awareness to action. And so bringing it uh to our Enneagram MBA audience here on the podcast and then in our team trainings and workshops, and how we are going to be talking about the Enneagram because I'm always saying that at the end of the day, it is not our job to make our groups Enneagram experts. The work that we do is to help people use the Enneagram as a tool to become an expert about themselves and on their workplace relationships. And so it's really important that we don't get bogged down by all the fun and interesting Enneagram concepts and terminology and all the different pieces of the Enneagram. So with the awareness to action Enneagram framework, we have adopted a three-part Enneagram framework here, using one, the nine types, two, the connecting points, um, and then three, what we're going to be talking about today called the instinctual biases. So I talked more about that in the last episode. Um, but all of that is for the reason to make it simply simple, clear, and actionable. Um, it there's so much with the Enneagram, and all kinds of different pieces can be helpful. But based on my personal experience, narrowing it down to these three key areas, make it simple and easy to understand. Um, when you may only have two hours or may only get a day. You know, that seems like a long time, but in the big scheme of things, just a day to grasp these concepts can be a, can not, can be not a lot of time. Um, but when we when we pare it down to these three pieces, we really get um some impactful insight and then some really specific direction for how to start using it to grow and develop in our careers and our work relationships. And so today we're going to be bringing in this concept of instinctual bias. And you might have heard of it, you might have heard it called um Enneagram subtypes, and it and it is just a layer deeper than our type. So we have our type here at Enneagram MBA. That's the thing that makes the the Enneagram. The Enneagram is the nine types, the connecting points. And then there's three flavors or three kind of subtypes of each type, and that's why you can what makes the typing process a little tricky at times, because you may identify with the type, but you may look a little bit differently because of this instinctual bias that's playing out. You may not look like the stereotypical type of whatever type that is. Um, our instinctual bias is what we tend to value, our bias towards what we've put value on, what we focus on. Um and we do it unknowingly most of the time. It's unconscious. Um, but it's, you know, what do we prioritize for getting our needs met? You know, what is most important is our instinctual bias, and then how that plays out with our type is the type is that strategy that we go that we use to get that important need met. So for example, we have type seven striving to feel excited, we have type six striving to feel secure. There is an instinctual bias that has to do with group dynamics, it's called the navigating um subtype. And these people are really attuned and want to orient orientate to a group. And so, how that might play out for a six who identifies as a navigator is that they are striving to feel safe and secure using the group, using a group. Whereas a seven also really values a group, but because their dominant strategy tends to be striving to feel excited, they're gonna find excitement. Um, they're gonna find that satisfaction in that group dynamic. So the inverse is true as well, where you can have three sevens all striving to feel excited, but one might use the group dynamic here. That's the navigator. One might use the one one of these other instinctual biases, one might use the other. And so the seven, even you can have 10 sevens in a room, and they may all show up a little bit differently depending on what their instinctual bias is as well. So it goes both ways. And you know, is it complicated? I I don't, I don't think so. I think it just um is reflects the complexity that we are as humans, and even these two layers will not be able to capture um everything about every person, but it will give us some deeper, more meaningful insight. So we get a lot from the type, we're gonna get even more when we add this other layer in. Um, Mario Sakura, who who runs Awareness to Action, uses this analogy of height and weight. So when we say somebody is, you know, six foot two, okay, we have an idea. They're they're six foot two, and that's kind of our our type. We we have an idea of their height, right? We we we kind of know what that means. But when you add in the width or the weight, um, in this case, that instinctual bias, um, you get a you get a better picture, right? A six foot two person who weighs um 200 pounds is gonna look much different than a six foot two person who weighs, you know, 280, right? Um, and so again, we're not gonna capture everything about them uh as a person or about their physical appearance, but we'll get a better picture. It gives us another dimension um to consider to give us a better understanding of what that how that person might show up. So um I like that analogy. And so we've we've talked a lot, a lot, a lot about the height. Now we're gonna introduce this other concept um in this analogy, the weight, to give us a fuller picture, not a complete picture, but a fuller picture. Um I mentioned that the instinctual biases, what are they? They speak to our most fundamental values, uh, the things that we believe are important and pay attention to, usually without even noticing that we do that. Um, it's the the way that we prioritize our needs and what is important. Like our type, it is a mix of nature and nurture, and then it has been repeated over time. And so it is it is kind of ingrained in us, much like our type, um, it most likely will not change. There are some things that we can do to um strengthen the other two to get better at at this one. Um, but it for the most part, because of that nature, nurture repeated over time, it kind of is what it is. We're we're where we are now. And so it's let's understand where we are starting from, let's accept it, let's let's understand that starting board. Now, let's look ahead at where we want to go and the best way for us to get there. Um, there are three instinctual biases, um, which sometimes um when you start to learn these, you can almost use these as kind of a hack to understanding people. Because rather than thinking about, oh, what Enneagram type might they be, where you have nine choices, you really you only have three here. And you can still get a lot of insight, you can still better navigate a situation, better understand somebody, even just with knowing which one of these three instinctual biases they might uh value the most. Um, we like again, like the types, we will use all of these. We we will express behavior and all three of these instincts to some degree, uh, but we will have a bias, hence the name instinctual bias, towards one. And I think the the instinctual part comes from this concept of kind of human evolution where we have these just instinctual, um you might have all also called heard them called instinctual variants in in Enneagram language, but it's this idea of you know uh surviving self-preservation for ourselves, surviving as a human, um, mating, having these deep bonds with another person, being able to procreate, move this species forward, and then um the social dynamics of of being able to be accepted and and using the group to be able to continue to live, survive, thrive. So those are those kind of three basics, but um this is maybe where they come from when it comes to the Enneagram. But when we are talking about them, we're gonna use some different names and there it's not gonna be uh such a direct translation from that concept, but that's kind of kind of where they came from. Um I like using these because they are more clear, it's easy to understand, um, there's less confusion. And if you're learning these concepts for the first time, this will absolutely be true. If you are bringing some um past Enneagram knowledge with you, it might be a little confusing, you might disagree with some parts, and that's okay. You know, take take what is helpful. Um, but I do encourage you to kind of come with an open mind and to come with some curiosity and like what if I use these or what might it mean? Um, if I changed the way I thought about this, just bring some curiosity uh but before you judge it. I also really like these because they're actionable. Um there's some clear direction for if this is your dominant instinctual biases, here's here's where you might struggle. Um and, you know, like everything, um as we get more information, as we experiment more, as we see what works in the real world, things evolve, right? We we science has evolved. Um, you know, we used to think the earth was flat and we got more information, we experimented, we you know, we we did things in real life and realized, oh, you know, it's actually it's actually round. Um, and so I I that's why I feel comfortable with this evolution of Enneagram language, terminology, and understanding um through this this awareness to action approach. Now, with that said, are you ready to jump into what the heck are these three instinctual biases? What do they mean? How do I use them for myself? And how do I use them to better understand not only my teammates, but different departments and my organization in general? And what I like about these is that um you absolutely can use them for a lot of self-awareness, self-growth. And we're gonna talk about more of that when we dive into each of the three in their own episode in the upcoming weeks. Um, but for today, we're we're gonna focus on introducing the three instinctual biases and then take a look at zoomed out view. How can we use them to understand different departments within our organization and then in our organization as a whole? Um, and it it's a little different than thinking, oh, or my organization is a type nine, or I think my organization has some type seven energy, which you can do that. Um, I think it it tends to make more sense and be more helpful though, using these instinctual biases when you think about, okay, what's my industry, what's my organization, what what is my department, what is my group, and then what am I? And just kind of looking at, oh, you know, how how do all of those things kind of play out? Um, what works, what the what struggles might might be present based on each of those areas. Um, and so there's just a lot of, like I said, very action-oriented insight that that you'll gain from these three. Um, we're gonna and we'll hopefully start that today. Now, before we can start using it to help us with our cross-departmental conflicts, we first need to understand what the heck these are. So we're gonna start from the top. We have our preserving energy, our preserving bias. And um, if you think of each of these, like we're watching a documentary. This, this, this preserving bias is when maybe the the squirrel comes on the screen and we're seeing it gather and store food. Um, there's three subcategories to each of these subtypes we'll get into, but I first want to introduce each each one. So we have preserving. This is where you're focused on well-being, making sure you have enough resources, food, water, shelter, your well-being, traditions are important here. Um, our next one is transmitting. We have uh leave a legacy. Uh I want to be seen, I want people to notice me. Um, I'm gonna dress to impress. And so, if we're watching our animal documentary, this is the part when the peacock would probably come onto the screen and we got the big feathers, we got the colors, they want to be noticed. They you know, hey, look at me, look what I'm doing over here. And then our last one is the navigating bias. And this is when it would cut to the champ chimpanzee pack where there's social creatures, they live in these uh uh, you know, got a lot, got a lot of social awareness, group dynamics, hierarchy management happening in here. And this type tends to be really attuned and aware and just just unconsciously, not even not even thinking about it, pick up on those things, navigate those situations. So we have preserving, transmitting, navigating. Now, if you are familiar with the Enneagram at all, um, and this concept of subtypes with the Enneagram, you might have heard uh self-preservation in in traditional Enneagram language. That is the preserving. However, it is so much more than just preserving yourself, and we'll talk more about that. Um, you may have heard the term sexual, which we tend to never use and in these team trainings or corporate workplaces, right? Um, or when we are teaching it in these in team workshops or talking about in the work setting, we'll use the term one to one, which also is not entirely accurate and can actually add some confusion. And this isn't a clear kind of replacement for that, but it's the closest one if you're familiar with with the subtypes on the Enneagram. And then the last one, um, the navigating, may you may be familiar with the subtype social. And again, this can be really uh misleading and confusing and cause for mistyping with our subtypes because a lot of times people think, well, either I'm social, if I'm social, I must be a social subtype. Um, but the navigating bias isn't about being social, it's not about being a social butterfly, loving to always be talking in the groups. Um that actually may be a little bit more of transmitting energy. The navigating energy is that you are orienting to the group. You are too attuned to the dynamics of these social situations. You don't necessarily have to be talking, but you're aware of, you know, who is talking, what's their status, what's their reputation. You have maybe some background information on them. And so you really are aware of these social settings. Um, and so be because of kind of these deeper explanations um is a is another reason why I have really gravitated towards this awareness to action approach here. Um, but I did want to mention that because I know a lot of you um have heard about subtypes, have been learning about the Enneagram for a long time. So I wanted just to put that note in there. Um okay, let's look at what the heck is does it mean to be preserving? And this is much more than self-preserving. There's three categories of preserving. We have security category, we have a well-being and resources category, and we have a maintenance category. Underneath the security category, and like I said, um this episode could be probably two hours long if we really got into the nitty-gritty of each one. But we're gonna we're gonna break it out. So I'm gonna do a specific episode um next week on the preserving energy. But for today, we're just introducing these concepts, kind of giving an overview. Okay, so we'll get into each of these subcategories more at a later date. Um, but under the security subcategory, we have issues and values, concepts related to safety, uh, risk avoidance, risk assessment, risk avoidance, and then relationships, finding security in our relationships. And this is where sometimes we may have mistyped our subtype in the past because we have heard the one-to-one, the sexual, and then we'll say one-to-one instead. Well, if I really, you know, if I really value my one-to-one relationships, then I must be, I must be that subtype. When in reality, it may be worth looking at this preserving energy a little bit more because this, these people tend to really value and find security in the relationships. The second uh subcategory here is around well-being and resources. So they're looking to be comfortable. That you know, these might be the people that uh buy the expensive mattress so they can sleep better, they can take care of their sleep hygiene more. Um, they're focused on supply. Do I have enough food? Do I have enough snacks? Do I have enough vitamins? Do I have enough clothes for the trip? Uh, so focused on that. And then health. Uh these people might be wearing their uh you know, Apple watches, sleep trackers, checking their blood pressure on a daily basis, tracking their heart rate regularly, really attuned to how they're feeling, what's going on with their health. Um the last subcategory here is around maintenance, tending to the nest. So this we got the squirrel tending to their nest, building the nest. Um, this is your home. This might be your office. Um, you know, everything's in order. You have enough of what you need. Um, repair is a part of this subcategory. So you have the tools on hand, ready to fix something. You have extra batteries if you need them, you're ready. Um, and then traditions are really important to this subtype or part of this subcategory here, where you know, really Christmas traditions are important. We always eat this meal for Easter. Um, we always do birthdays this way. Um you know, that it's really important. Um, they really value that, those, those traditions, whatever they might be. So we have security, well-being, re and resources, and then maintenance as our subcategories for the preserving. Um, I'm I'm looking forward to diving more into each of these because it's hard for me just not to go go all in, but you know, thinking about your your groups and your departments and your organization or types of organizations. Um, you know, this this will probably be, you know, the legal team, maybe the accounting team is gonna have a lot of preserving energy, the finance team, um, the HR team might have some of this. They might have a little bit of um preserving, maybe a little bit of uh uh navigating. We'll talk about that later. But if you have like a safety or environmental compliance department, they're gonna have the department itself is gonna have this preserving energy. Um, some industries or organizations that I have examples of preserving energy might be, you know, State Farm, your your insurance providers, your your banks, um, the your, you know, in the medical field in general, but you know, your dentist, uh, your doctor's offices, your law firm, you know, might have some of that preserving energy with that risk avoidance, um, hospitals, conservation agencies, uh, and I'm sure you can think of of some more, but again, like when we talk about type, there may be some things that as you're thinking about, oh, what's mine, or what's my departments, or what's my organization's, um, it may not check every single box all the time. Um, so again, it's what what do we have the most of in this situation? Um okay, so that is preserving where let's look at our transmitting energy next. Our transmitting is focused on I wanna I want to leave a legacy. Our transmitting instinctual bias is all about attracting and bonding. Uh, the three categories here are asserting, broadcasting, and narrow casting, kind of a uh ebb and flow of those, and then impressing, um, asserting the the some of the things that make up that subcategory are very high ambition, very strong drive, low inhibition. So, unlike our preserving, who is focused on avoiding risk, managing risk, uh, the this type tends to not even be thinking about it. Um, and then this need for satisfaction. Under the broadcasting and narrow casting subcategory, we have signaling, uh, we have one-to-one. So this is where that that that confusion can come from because what this looks like is broadcasting. We have this transmitter walking into a room, they are dressed to the nines, they're they are dressed to impress, they have they're bringing their energy, they're bringing their excitement, they're vivacious, they're charming. Um, they're bringing all of this the moment they step into the room. And they are, you know, just kind of have this magnetic personality, the big personality. And so they're broadcasting, they're signaling, they're putting it out there. And then when they find somebody maybe that's interesting to talk to or might be finding them interesting to talk to, they're gonna narrow cast, they're gonna zoom their vision on and maybe have a really intense conversation, connection with that person, that that small group, and then they're gonna zoom back out when they're done. And it's gonna broadcast, narrow cast, zoom in, zoom out, zoom in, zoom out. And so this is what this transmitting energy looks like. Um impressing is the other category, and this includes legacy, this includes charm, this includes impact. Um, I say Steve Jobs was probably a transmitting type, probably a transmitting type four, but he has that quote, you know, I want to leave a dent in the universe. This is that I want to leave a legacy, I want people to remember me when I'm gone. I want, you know, go big or go home. Um, and then, you know, as I'm talking, you might be thinking about specific Enneagram types. So I know when I first started learning about, and even now when I think about the transmitting energy, I think a lot about the type 8 energy. And so it's like, wow, when you have a type 8 and they are transmitting type 8, okay, that this is when you get your textbook type 8, you know, this they are type 8. Uh, same thing with uh the six energy is something I think about sometimes when I when I think about the preserving, kind of that risk avoidance, uh risk management. And so when you have a preserving six, you have that textbook six. That's you know, but what happens? What does it look like when you have a transmitting six? Kind of two opposites coming together. You have this kind of interesting push-pull. And so that six is gonna look very different than how a preserving six might show up. They're still, you know, striving to feel safe and secure at the end of the day, but how they look, how they behave is gonna look very different. So, how this how this plays out. Um, for for our departments within our organization, I had, you know, sales is probably a lot of this transmitting energy. Our branding department, our promotions department, our business development group will have a lot of this transmitting energy. Um, as far as industries or specific organizations, you know, professional sports teams probably have a lot of this transmitting energy. Kind of look at us, you know, here's what we're doing. Um, startups I have. So um maybe maybe not every startup, but you know, when you think about the kind of the stereotypical startup, we have this, you know, low, high ambition, low inhibition. Um want to signal to the rest of the industry, like, look at what we're doing. We want to do something really important with this. Um, I had Tesla down as a specific example of a of a transmitting energy, you know, the the space exploration, you know, blue ocean, SpaceX, um, Hollywood, um, Nike probably is some transmitting energy, real estate, um, probably the hospitality, kind of that Marriott Hilton groups I had down Zillow Real Estate, I guess is is under there. Um, and then oh, I also had kind of thinking about um, you know, even though preserving has that well-being focused on health and fitness, I I thought, you know, a a club like Equinox, a health club like Equinox is probably more transmitting than preserving because it is kind of this, you know, we're we're leaving a legacy, we're we're we're signaling, kind of we're the best. Um, and and so, you know, it's kind of just interesting to start to think about different departments within your own organization and then other what what is your organization, other what's the industry, and just kind of how all that um how that all fits with you. So it'd be really interesting to be on a sales team, but you personally identify as a preserving energy. You can kind of see like why you might have some conflict. Or if you're in a transmitting industry or at a transmitting company, but your department is uh preserving, you know, you got your legal department in the uh, you know, startup space or the HR group and the startup space. There's gonna be some conflict there. Um the last bias is our navigating bias. And this is uh where we are orienting to the group. We are focused on those social dynamics. Um, there are three subcategories with this one as well: trust and reciprocity, power and influence dynamics, and then identity and status. And so for trust and reciprocity include trade, group coherence, information exchange. This is kind of like that the office gossip a little bit, which can get a bad rep, right? However, um the way that the navigators use the gossip, it's hey, I want to know what's going on. I want to know what the T is. I know, I want to know what's going on with this person, with this department, with this group, with this other, with this other um organization, so that, you know, I know how to navigate, I know how to show up, I know maybe how to help, I know how to fix something, I know, I know what I should say, what I shouldn't say based on, you know, what the what the gossip is. And so they really do treat it more as information, exchanging information more than just, oh, it's just something fun to do. Um and they may not even realize they do that. Again, this a lot of these things are just happen unconsciously. The other subcategory here is our power and influence dynamics. So this is politics, social intelligence, social awareness, hierarchy management. So, hey, listen, you know, in this group, it's like I don't have to be in charge. I don't necessarily need to be the leader, but I I want to know who is in charge. I want to know who the leader is. I want to know, you know, what the the status or the hierarchy is, who's in charge, um, so that I know how to orient to that group. I know how to navigate productively through that group. And then the last subcategory here is status and identity, which is a focus on pecking order, uh role clarity, and reputation management. And so this uh what happens a lot of times with um navigators is that in conversations, because of this focus on reputation management, um, they'll they might ask a lot of questions, they might um maybe share some surface level stories, but they're gonna be really careful about oversharing too much about themselves for this, for this reason. This I want to manage my image, I want to, you know, I want to look good, um, I want to be a part of the group, I want to be accepted in into the group, but I also don't want to overshare, I don't want to say too much. And so that might be something that they might be thinking about, you know, uh when they're when they're talking to somebody is am I talking too much? Am I not talking enough? What do people think? You know, what's what do I think of this person? Um, and uh Marius Sakura, who leads the awareness to action organization, he will talk about how you can see a preserver preserving. You can see, you can see them doing those things. You can see a transmitter transmitting, you can see them, you know, showing up, broadcasting, neurocasting, charming, uh, all that. But it's a lot harder to see a navigator navigating because so much of these pieces um are things that happen in our in our heads. This kind of social intelligence, hierarchy management, reputation, a lot of it is things that we are thinking about, that we are information that we are taking in and we are assigning meaning to and we are trying to understand. And that's a lot harder to see on the outside. So sometimes navigators are harder to identify and to and to understand. Um, as far as departments go, this might be your marketing department. Um, they really understand, you know, how to position the company. So the PR department, the public affairs uh department, your editorial department might be on here. Um, political campaigns might be an organization or industry. Um let's see, what else did I have on here? I had some of these um large consulting firms like Pricewaterhouse Cooper, Deloitte. You know, they they really understand um their client. They really understand the these uh dynamics of social group settings. Um, I had Yelp on here as well as a way that, you know, the kind of this idea of information exchange. Um and, you know, kind of piggybacking off this this uh health club differentiator example. So we have just a health regular health club that might be some of that preserving energy. We talked about Equinox, maybe being the transmitting energy. And then I had, you know, maybe like a cycle bar or an orange theory, um, some one of these kind of small group boutique gyms, fitness clubs, I guess fitness gyms, um, having this navigating energy because it really is so much about the group, so much about the group dynamic, um, clarifying, you know, the the different roles. Um and so I thought that was kind of uh might be an example of of uh navigating in in the health and fitness industry that's not necessarily a preserver. So um those are some examples. And like I said, we're gonna get much more into this in the in the coming episodes, and then just in the coming year, we're gonna be talking more about this. So we're we're starting at the top. We kind of did a lap introducing the three, did kind of another lap sharing um the the subcategories of these three, sharing some examples, and and we'll be talking about more um how to use them more in the workplace, both with yourself and with departments. But um, I was reading an article uh recently and it was talking about resolving cross-department rivalries. And it said that they are there was a study that shows that 85% of workers experience some regular form of conflict. And here in the US, it ends up being about three hours a week that you are dealing with these the this kind of cross-departmental workplace conflict. And it's easy to blame it on personalities, maybe a toxic boss or you know, individuals. Oh, I just have big egos. But the author um was an organizational consultant, and I'll link this article in the show notes here so you can check it out if you're interested. Um, said that a lot of times, though, the root cause is a little bit more systematic systematic than that. It systemic, gosh, use my words, a little bit more systemic than that. Um, so what will happen a lot of times is that managers, organizations, leaders will bring in team training events. They might bring in motivational speakers to talk about trust. Um, but those benefits, if any, that come from that will probably be short-lived because what has happened is the organization is set up to almost encourage all these different departments to dislike and distrust each other because they have these competing values. So, for example, we were talking about um, you know, the different different departments. So you might have, um, I'll give you an example in my real life. Um, in a in a past career, I worked for a publication and we had our editorial team um who was really focused on uh you know uh reputation management, you know, wanting to be a respected publication. And then we had our sales team who was really focused on, you know, uh getting big clients, bringing in the money, making some some big risks, some big asks, um, attending events to connect with these potential clients and advertisers. Um, and so there was always, almost always, this this kind of tension between the two departments because I was on the sales team and it never failed our, you know, we'd have a client want to write their own article or would want to have our someone from our editorial team do a story on a new product, right? And as a sales team, you're thinking, yes, let's do it. We're yes, uh uh let's make it happen. And then the editorial team is like, wait a minute, this, you know, we're not, we're not, we, you know, this is against journalism standards. Um, they're an advertiser, they need to be paying for an, you know, an advertisement here. Um, this is not an interesting editorial content. And so we had the editorial team that I had in here as kind of that that navigating energy, um, butting heads with this transmitting energy. And you when you start to kind of understand, okay, this is what each of these is kind of focused on, and it's just set up that way. It just happens to be set up that way where there does tend to be competing interests, competing goals. Um, and so it makes sense that we have this budding of heads, that we have this conflict. But I'm gonna give you four questions to ask in just a minute to maybe help start a productive conversation to at least help you better understand each other. So you'll have these questions and then you'll have this insight, this instinctual bias insight to help you give you some language and some deeper understanding. Um, another real life experience that I had was when I worked on an environmental compliance team. So a lot of preserving energy right there, compliance, right? Um, and then we would always butt heads with our business development team who was out seeking new properties to put a new um, you know, mining operation on or to put a new concrete plan on. And, you know, it made sense. And here's all the numbers, and here's what we can make, and here's the opportunity. Here are all these our you know, local vend, we have vendors who are close, so we could, you know, cut costs and let's go, let's go for it. Let's let's do this big, let's do this big sale. And uh, you know, then they would always send uh the safety and environmental compliance out to do their own due diligence reports. And it's such a it's such a downer to say, man, you know, they they had this ginormous uh environmental catastrophe, uh, you know, big oil spill or you know, whatever it might be years ago. And it is it is impacted a huge portion. We're gonna have to do a huge cleanup um over here. Or, you know, actually, this is on top of a of a conservation area. We're really we're next to this conservation area. We're gonna we're gonna have this huge border that we're not gonna be able to mine around. So it, you know, it's actually not gonna be as as uh as profitable or as good of a deal as it is. It was such a downer, right? And so so they would always say, Well, are you sure about that? Like, what does it really say? Is there any way to get around that? So there was that kind of competing, preserving versus transmitting energy right there. Um, I also think of um, you know, a professional sports team, for example. They might have their their marketing and sales team, their sales team, um, similar to to my sales days, uh, a client might might ask for something. Hey, could we get our logo on here? Or could could we say this in our in our you know, promotions, um, our marketing promotions here? And as as you know, as as the person who that's your client, you're gonna say, oh yeah, we can do that. We'll make it work for you. And then you have legal coming in, probably with some of that preserving energy, saying, we can't say that, or if we do this, then that sets the precedent for for all of this other headache. So we're not gonna be able to do that. And so you uh, you know, you can start to see the friction that happens between these two groups. And when you kind of understand um through when you start to kind of think about it through the lens of these instinctual biases, you really start to get some specific language and specific insight about oh, here's what's driving this group on top of the organization's specific, you know, values and goals. Um, the last example I had on here was a startup team, tends to have that transmitting energy. Um, let's go far, let's go fast, we'll figure it out on the way down, leap in the net will appear, kind of thing. Um, and then you have maybe the HR group, maybe that that navigating um. And and it's like, well, you know, we what is this going? What are we gonna how's this gonna impact people? What are the what's the group gonna be? We're kind of blurring the lines with role clarity here. What's our processes for this? And so you can start to see, you know, this the CEO, the founder of a startup team, they might have thought, oh, we really wanna, we need to hire an HR person, or we need to hire, um, and I've seen another example where we need to, you know, we need to hire the finance person here, we need to bring in a money person. And um, again, they're gonna butt heads because they have kind of these competing, these competing values. So um looking at, okay, great, we we have this information. We're starting to hopefully think about what ours is, start to think about what our groups, our department is, what are the groups that we work a lot with, what what might theirs be, what, what industry are we in, and start to kind of see how those dynamics play out for you. And then um the the author of this article, How to Permanently Resolve Cross Department Rivalries, uh, featured in Harvard Business Review, um, shared four questions for helping to navigate conflict when you're having it regularly with specific groups. Um you're not gonna avoid it, but how can you reduce the friction and strengthen collaboration? So here's four critical questions that will hopefully enable better cross-functional teams um to work together better. One is what value do we create together? Um, you know, a lot of times um we can be focused on what is the value that our that our team is bringing, but what about together? So, you know, the sales team has a specific set of capabilities and the editorial team has a specific set of capabilities. How can we come together or what value, when we do come together, do we bring to the organization? Um, and that value, that particular value can only come to fruition when these two groups are working to each other, are working with each other, working together. There we go. When they understand their shared contributions for getting for getting there. Um and this combined expertise a lot of times is not just something nice to have, but it but it truly is necessary to get products to market faster, to get the the publication out faster, to make the customer happier, whatever that might be. And so the question is what value do we create together? So the idea is that you would maybe bring together the two teams or maybe the leaders of the two teams and start having these conversations. So this could be a one uh to start with. The second one that the author recommends is asking, all right, what capabilities do we need to deliver this value? Uh, you know, what do we need from the organization, from our leadership team to better work together so that we can deliver that value? Um, one example is the sharing of information. So a lot of times, you know, the information, the updates might be a bit siloed. And so one team has information about one thing, the other team has information about another thing, and it and it and it can be frustrating because maybe somebody wasn't aware of the deadline, or maybe somebody wasn't aware that we had a supply shortage of something. And so, you know, you get kind of frustrated with one another, but really it's neither department's fault. It's that, you know, the systematically that there's not a great channel for sharing and exchanging accurate information. So, what do we need? Maybe we need a monthly meeting. You know, do we do we need to create a monthly meeting? Is there some type of memo that needs to go out? What what are those things? And only you will know by asking that question. What do we need from our organization, from our leadership to be able to deliver this combined, you know, cross-functional collaboration value? The third question is how will we resolve conflicts and make decisions while still maintaining trust? And so empathy is key here. And I think that having something like the Enneagram, having something like the nine types, and then as of today, these instinctual biases in your back pocket to have some sort of realization that, oh my gosh, wait, not everybody is thinking about assessing and avoiding risk like I am. Not everybody is focused on having, you know, a plethora of supply. Not everybody is thinking about, you know, well-being and and whatever maintenance, you know, it might be, and just to have that realization, oh, I'm focused on that. And that's my default. But understanding that not that's not everybody's default can in itself give you so much more empathy and understanding for how somebody else might be coming to the situation or another group. Um, and this is this is a good question for kind of rehearsing conflict in advance. So maybe, you know, maybe bringing up, okay, what what tends to be our most common points of friction? What times of year? What what triggers um what trigger events happen that lead to our budding heads? Let's talk about those. What happens? What will we do differently moving forward with this understanding and insight um that we have now about each other? Um, you may also have to, you know, acknowledge some historical baggage, some some unresolved distrust uh between the groups and the past, but but working through those, putting everything on the table, working through it. Um, and then hopefully you get to the point where you're thinking, gosh, you know, one team thinking, I had no idea that you all had to do that. No wonder why our requests drive you crazy. You know, just that understanding. And then the last question what do we need from each other to succeed? So in question two, we talked about what might we need from the leadership, what might we need from the organization in order to succeed? But moving forward, how can we support each other's work? What do we need from each from each department? Um, and this might be something as simple as you know, a piece of technology, a shared calendar. Um, it might include uh inviting people from the other groups to certain meetings that the other departments have. So they again they maintain that that accurate uh flow of information. Um, and then the other team has an opportunity to share their input and feedback onto the ideas being talked about. So what what are those? Those are just some examples, but what do you need from each other to succeed? So those four questions will be in the short show notes as well with this article. But I thought, you know, at the end of the day, it it really it doesn't, is it the Enneagram? Is it Myers Briggs? Is it Strength Finders? Is it Colby? Is it something else? It it doesn't matter. It's it's A being open to communicating, being open to um learning, getting curious, I guess, rather than being open and curious about your teammates, about other people on your different departments. Um, and then I do think that having some sort of tool like the Enneagram can really help you just kind of quick start and uh speed up that process of empathy, understanding others awareness because it by default, by understanding what you do and what what you identify most with, you realize that not everybody else is thinking that way or valuing those things. And so then it's like, well, what are they valuing? How is that different? How what are our synergies because of that? Where are our friction points? Um, and so it's not about the Enneagram, it's not about instinctual biases at the end of the day. Um, it is just about being curious, being open to communicating and having tools and then having questions like these four questions here, I think really help give some guidance and some direction to productive conversations. Um, but there's always other things, right? So um I hope that this episode gives you some things to think about as you may be navigating some conflicts in your own organization, um, within your own teams or with among other teams inside your organization. And uh, like I said, moving forward in our next three episodes, we're gonna dive a little deeper into each of the three instinctual biases and take a look at what does it mean to be a preserving teammate? What does it mean to be a transmitting teammate? And what does it look like to be a navigating teammate? Um, so that's coming at you over the next three weeks. Um, and I appreciate you being here. Welcome again to season five, and uh I'll see you back here next week.