SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work podcast. You are about to jump into part two of a two-part interview that I did with my Enneagram mentor and teacher, who is also uh former president of the Enneagram International Enneagram Association, as well as the current founder and president at Awareness to Action International, where we use his Enneagram approach here at Enneagram NBA. So if you have not yet listened to part one, I'm gonna encourage you to pause this, jump over there on that where we get into the real history, bust through myths and misconceptions of the history of the Enneagram, talk about the history of lean. So you don't want to miss that one, check out part one, then come back over here. If you've already listened to that, welcome back. We are going to be talking about what's next. How has the Enneagram changed and what's next for the Enneagram? So I look forward to seeing you on the other side where we'll continue hearing from Mary.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

And I I think that's a good thing because we get closer and closer to deeper understanding through the evolution of our explanations and our ideas. So my thinking has evolved, and I think that's a good sign. Uh, and I'm sure it will evolve further as we go. So when I first started learning about the subtypes, okay, and so the idea, the original idea is that there are these three instincts, right? Humans have these three instincts, and each of us has a tendency to, you know, rely on one of those instincts more than others, or it affects us more, and so forth. Uh, so you could be using the traditional language, a self-preservation subtype, a social subtype, or a sexual or one-to-one subtype, depending on whose language you're using. So um so I liked the idea because again, I felt that it was a useful clarifier, you know, and a use of, but I started noticing some problems early on as I started using it. Okay. Now, one of those problems is just language. Okay, you can't go into an organization and say, well, you know, the problem is that so-and-so is a sexual subtype, you know, or something, right? And you, but even self-preservation has a negative connotation because people start saying, Oh, he's all about his own self-preservation, and so you know, he's not a good person or whatever. So, um, so the language was a little bit problematic. Uh, scientifically, it really problematic because humans don't really have instincts in that way, right? We don't have these three instincts. We have these, you know, adaptations or these focuses of attention that make us focus on different areas of life. But it's not like there's this instinct in me that is acting out and so forth. Okay. Now, so I started doing a deep dive deep dive into not only trying to understand the science behind these things from a biological perspective, but also observing people. And I started to observe that people who I had always thought of as, say, a sexual subtype or a one-to-one subtype had characteristics and behaviors that were not accounted for either in the literature or in the theory, right? Uh, for example, when we think of, you know, um, what other people call the sexual subtype, I call transmitting bias, is a tendency toward display. Okay. They tend to sparkle more, they tend to stand out more, right? They tend to, you know, spread the peacock feathers a little bit. And it's not necessarily a sexual thing, and it's not necessarily a one-to-one thing. In fact, it's an anti-one-to-one thing. It's an issue of broadcasting rather than just focus on these people. So I start to see that, okay, these people who are supposed to be one-to-one are actually broadcasting out into the world and then kind of flipping back and forth between broadcasting and narrow casting, right? So I broadcast, when I get her attention, boom, I kind of zoom in on her, right? When I lose her attention, I go back to broadcasting and so forth. So I started to notice that there were issues correlated but not captured in the descriptions. I also wanted to use verbs instead of nouns or adjectives, because I think that it's important to see people in terms of what it is they do. And by do, I mean their affective state, their patterns of emotions, their patterns of thinking and how that thinking is expressed, and their behavior, right? So when I say what people do, I'm not just looking at behaviors. Okay, I'm looking at phenomena. So I like to look at things through the lens of phenomena, an expression of phenomena, rather than these static, what are called ontological categories. Okay. I'm meaning a thing is a thing because that's what it is. So anyway, so I started looking at these. Okay, I'm seeing things that are not accounted for in the literature. I need labels that capture that broadened scope of phenomena. So instead of self-preservation, I started to notice that people who, what I now call preservers, or you know, people with a preserving bias, preserve things beyond just themselves, right? They like, you know, they preserve traditions, they preserve artifacts, they they they do, you know, they'll have hobbies like genealogy or you know, kind of traditional things, and you know, and they they like holidays and that sort of thing. Again, not all of them like all those things, but there's a high proportion. So it's not just self-preservation, it's a bias toward preserving behaviors, okay, preserving thoughts, preserving, you know, uh actions and feelings. In the um, in what's other people call the social instinct or you know, social subtype, I think of it as navigating, because you know, social uh people have a tendency to see it as extroverted, right? Somebody you know likes to talk to people, likes to, you know, be focused on changing society, all these sort of things. That's not what it's about, right? It is about understanding group dynamics and figuring out how I fit into it. So it's about navigating or orienting to the group. So, you know, I how do I understand the group? How do I share information with the group so that I can be part of it and you know survive? And then finally, the one-to-one thing or sexual subtype, I think of as transmitting, because it is a you know tendency to prioritize behaviors and activities that increase the probability that I can transmit something to you, my genes, my ideas, my artifacts, etc.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

That that is very different than uh, you know, I think what we're we're we're used to to reading about. But what I love that you just said is that these came from years of um observations mixed with science. Um, and then like you had said, just being open to the ideas of all things. And um and I love that. And I think that these um I've heard you say something similar to where it's not just with the wings, it can sometimes be maybe descriptive, but then it ends at that and isn't even an accurate description. Um, but this provides a lot of guidance and some opportunities for growth. It's not just stagnant. So we we have done some episodes in the past on your teaching around the awareness to action and the instinctual biases. So, but that was a really helpful recap kind of come coming from the source. I'm curious, you had mentioned science, and one of the questions or comments, concerns that sometimes will come up will be around this just kind of feels like astrology, like I'm hearing these kind of things. Um, what is your typical response to somebody who might have some of that um and maybe rightly so skepticism around the Enneagram and it being useful?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah. And it's, you know, so when I first encountered the Enneagram 30 years ago, um, it was really, really niche, right? I mean, nobody knew about the Enneagram. You know, if I mentioned it to anybody, they, you know, didn't know anything about it. Now it's all over the place, right? It's uh, I mean, I don't know how many social media hits you get. It really took off in churches. Uh, it's you know, the entertainment industry is picking up on it. So it's it's really out there now. And the quality is variable, right? I mean, you know, there are people who don't have a very deep knowledge of it, you know, out there spreading it around and so forth. So um, so that's you know, a bit of a challenge. And um, so what happens is is that some of it does get presented in a way that is really horoscopy, right? And is really superficial. And so it's justified for people to say, you know, this is just nonsense. You know, you could you could make that statement about anybody, for example, right? And you know, that sort of thing. So um, so some of the criticism is justified because it's really poor teaching of the system, not rooted in any depth of understanding. Now, um, when people compare it to horoscopes, you know, I always ask them, well, what do you mean by that? Right. And so um, you know, because I'm not a big horoscope person, I think that, you know, can we say, you know, oh, there are certain people with certain characteristics, like I'm a Leo, for example, right? I'm I got an August birthday. You know, when you read the description of Leo, you say, yeah, well, you know, that that fits, right? Um, and I know other people who are, you know, also Leo's. You could look at it and say, yeah, that fits. They're nothing like me from an Ennegram perspective, but from a Leo perspective, you know, okay. But there are also plenty of people out there who are born within that range of Leo who don't fit the description, right? And so you can go and you can falsify and all that sort of thing. Now, so I again for me, something doesn't have to be real to be useful. Okay. And you know, all these things are metaphors, all of these things are models. Okay, people like to say the enneagram is not just a model, it's something sacred, it's archetypal. No, that's nonsense. Okay, it's just a model, it's something that people made up, okay. It's useful, okay, because models can be useful, but it's not real in that sense. Now, the problem I have with horoscopes is that it in our astrology is that number one, it bases things on particular dates, right? You know, I'm I have these characteristics because I was born within this, you know, lunar pat you know, lunar period. Uh, you know, I I I don't see any way that that's related to anything. Okay, I don't see any causal mechanism between the movement of the stars and planets, you know. So it's about the causal claim that's problematic. Okay. And when it comes to the Enneagram, where people run into the problem, if they have good solid teaching, okay, where they run into trouble is when they start making causal claims rather than just saying, you know what, here's some phenomenon that we see. Okay, take it for what it's worth. If it's useful to you, use it. If not, then you know, dismiss it. Okay. Not everything that is useful has to be scientifically validated or supported. Philosophy is outside the realm of science, right? Logic, reason, poetry, music, right? I mean, all these things, they they have utility that is not necessarily rooted in being scientific. So I'm not a fan of saying, oh, we have to prove the Enneagram scientifically, or we can prove, or we should prove it. I don't care about that stuff. What I care about is are people making claims that go against what we know through science? Are they making claims about having a brain in their heart or a brain in their belly or something? Okay. Yeah, you know, it's we can look at that and say, okay, first of all, a brain is a technical term, right? It refers to this organ in your head. Okay. So to say you have a brain in your heart, that would be a real, real, real weird phenomenon. Okay. And so, yeah, you know, now can we say that there are, you know, particular functions of the you know, the central nervous system, some of which are heavily rooted in the chest reason that regulate emotion, et cetera, et cetera? Sure. Okay. So anyway, we have to be careful about what claims we are making versus, you know, uh as our explanations and making sure that they're not contradicting what we know through science or logic or reason.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Okay, and that makes sense. Um curious, I have two more questions for you. This is one of them. Um, what have you seen? And this could be a specific example or just in in general, what have you seen as one of the I guess most useful um things that have come out of you sharing the Enneagram with a group and individual, just kind of your your career. Um, what what do you see as some of the benefits?

SPEAKER_01 14:01

You know, it's interesting. I was talking to a guy yesterday who um I hadn't talked to in about 10 years, right? I had coached him, you know, probably our coaching engagement began, you know, 12, 15 years ago, probably. Um, and uh we we we hadn't talked in a while. And he said to me, you know, um, you know, he was talking about the impact that the engagement had on him. And he said, I wish my only regret is that we didn't do it five years earlier in my career because of the impact it had on me. And had I learned it five years earlier, I would have not only saved myself a headache, but you know, gained that. So, so for me, you know, the Enneagram in and of itself is not enough, right? It has to be applied in the context of some other things, right? So I am a, you know, amongst other things, I am a coach who uses the Enneagram. I'm not an Enneagram coach. Okay. I don't go into somebody and say, well, Sarah, you're a seven, so you need to do this and you need to do this. No, you know, what's going on, Sarah? You know, what are you struggling with, et cetera? And then we see how your Enneagram type relates to that, and then we come up with a you know a solution to it. So you know, the the thing that you know that I take away and the thing that I feel good about is that I've been able to use the Enneagram in a way that helps illuminate to people what some of their patterns are, what some of their obstacles are, so they can tweak relatively small things in the scheme of things, but that have the right impact and over time pay off compound interest, right? The earlier, you know, the earlier we invest money, you know, the more the interest compounds, and the more we end up with. Well, it's the same way with any changes we make in our lives, right? The sooner we make them, the more dividends it pays off in the end, or the more the interest compounds, et cetera. So, so for me, it's just seeing that the Enneagram can be probably the most powerful tool in helping people see themselves so they can make real substantive change uh in a targeted way.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah. It just kind of widens your language, things that you had never thought about before. Um, it gives you something to kind of ref to reflect on. So we've talked about the history, all kinds of different things about the history. We've talked a little bit about the evolution where we're at now. Where do you see the Enneagram going? What is the future uh according to what you're seeing with the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Yeah, I I I think you know, there are always pros and cons, right? Always hopes and fears uh when we start looking into the future. And um I think one of the good things is the capacity for broadened application of the Enneagram, right? And technology is part of that, right? I mean, there's technology that allows, I mean, geez, look at the internet, right? We're having this conversation. You're in Louisville, I'm in Philadelphia. Uh, you know, it's as if we're sitting across from each other, right? So technology allows us to have these kind of conversations, and it also allows us to share the Enneagram with people at kind of lightning speed, right? And you start thinking about, you know, apps and you know, different tools that are available online, all great stuff, but with the potential to spread nonsense just as quickly as, you know, good stuff. So, so on the one hand, um, you know, optimistic about the proliferation of good Enneagram teacher teaching and fearful of the proliferation of bad Enneagram teaching, right? You know, it's kind of two sides of the coin. Um, I think you know, there's always this um, I wish I could remember the name of the author, but she wrote a book about um um the tension in cultural evolution between tightening and loosening, right? So as things kind of rebel against the tightening of a culture, things get looser, right? The 60s was you know an example of a loosening of the you know, stiffness of the 50s, and then the 80s became a tightening again, and it goes back and forth. And so there is this kind of expansion of understanding of the Enneagram, different perspectives that is good and useful. Um, but there's also this backlash against it among some Enneagram teachers saying, no, what they're doing is not the Enneagram. What I'm doing is the Enneagram, and you know, that sort of thing. And if you're not teaching this, and if you're not teaching that, you're not teaching the Enneagram. So that need among some to continue to dogmatize the system and to, again, kind of root it in this ancient tradition that you know proves that I'm part of the ancient tradition because it's been, you know, what I'm teaching is a million years old. What you're teaching is something you made up, you know, kind of thing. So um so that that that that tension between creativity and rigidity of the system is also something I'm concerned about, right? Um, that we get that balance right because it does have to be some quality control, right? I mean, you can't just take any idea out there. You know, any model has to be um both internally and externally consistent, right? Does it, you know, not contradict itself? Okay, good. Does it not contradict what's out there in the world? Okay, good. It works, right? But if it contradicts itself or contradicts what we see, then it's not a good model. So there's a lot of not good Enneagram models out there. Um, but that said, um, there's a growing awareness, there's a growing appreciation for the value of the Enneagram that I think is great. Uh, there is an ongoing access to good teaching that uh I think you know uh more and more people are taking advantage of. So, you know, I'm optimistic about where the Enneagram can go and the applications it can have.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Do you see any uh trends with it with it being used in the workplace? Like, has there been a increase? I like I just have my limited experience, but from what you've seen in any movement in that particular area.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, well, certainly, I mean, it is becoming much, much, much more widespread in the workplace, right? And uh, you know, I am now getting people, you know, contacting me because they want an Ennegram program, right? Uh that was not the nature of my work early on, right? People didn't come out of the blue and say, hey, we want you to do the Enneagram for us. They hired me as a coach or a, you know, you know, a team building consultant, that sort of thing. Uh now, you know, enough people know about the Ennegram that they they want it. Um, again, there's an issue of buyer beware on the quality of things and so forth, right? It's easy to find somebody who's not really good at teaching the Enneagram in organizations. Um, so I'm finding that best applications of the Enneagram are around you know, one-on-one improvement, right? So, you know, how do I improve my performance? And whether that's a coaching engagement or some sort of training around that, that's application number one. Application number two is improving team dynamics. Okay. Okay, I get that Sarah's a seven, right? Now I know why she does the things that she does. You know, you say, okay, I know I'm, you know, and now I know Mary is an eight. Okay, I get it, right? I can loosen up a little bit. When we're having static, we can step back and say, hey, wait a minute, you know, you're doing your eight thing again, you know, that sort of thing. That's that's hugely powerful.

unknown 21:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Um, I also think that there's a lot of uh, you know, opportunity, and this is an area where I'm taking a big look at lately is the application of the instinctual biases on business dynamics and structures, branding, sales, you know, marketing, all that sort of stuff. There's there's huge application of the instinctual biases that has not really been tapped into yet. Uh, so that's an area. Uh Um, so um y you know, I think those are the big things. The areas I would really always caution people about are using trying to use the Enneagram to assign roles to people or hire people. Uh, you know, I get people all the time saying to me, Oh, you know, you should use this in, you know, recruiting or hiring or something. I say, look, if if it worked, I would do it, right? Make a lot of money doing that, you know. But it just doesn't work. Okay. You can't hire, you know, you can't make a hiring decision based on somebody's Enneagram type. So that's the thing I see people leaning toward on occasion, and I really want to warn them against doing that because it won't work.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Okay. Um, for those listening, maybe they are running their own some, you know, coaching business of some sort, therapy business, or happen to be somebody inside an organization um that's interested in maybe bringing the Enneagram and maybe specifically the awareness to action.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Oh, there you go. You're fish for customers here. Is that what you're saying, sir?

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, well, I I have personally and I have talked about this. I think if if listeners have, if this is not their first episode, they they know um I have been through your certification program, the train the trainer program. Where would you recommend for somebody who is interested in kind of step one with you awareness to action? Where's the best place to start?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah. Well, uh people are always welcome to send me an email, Mario at awareness to action.com. Okay. Uh, and I'm happy to answer any questions they might have or address them. Uh, our the platform for our uh certification program is enneagram on demand.com. Um and so we do have a certification program, and um it's you know very flexible, it's you know highly video oriented, right? There are about a hundred videos for people to watch, and we do six or seven live sessions, and so um you know that that's a good place to learn more about the certification program. But you know, feel free to reach out to me if people are interested in what we do and either our corporate work or the you know training of coaches and consultants.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Okay, and then I'm also gonna plug in here for the instinctual leadership book. So if if what we talked about today was new to you but interesting, um, as how Mario was describing, transmitting, navigating, preserving, there's more in the instinctual leadership book. So I'll link that. All right. Well, you have your email. I know you're on, I know you're getting out there on social media too. You got some video, so you'll have to find uh Mario out there. Is there a platform that you prefer?

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Um, not really. I try to do more business oriented stuff on LinkedIn. And uh I actually have a link tree at MarioSecuralinks.com where it kind of lists all my socials and you know all that stuff. So I got I I got a lot of stuff out there and uh you know it's kind of all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

So you know it's hard to miss me if you you know once you want you to well we will we will link that, but I will say I also started, I think I emailed you. Um you are very uh responsive. And and so if you do have questions, uh yeah, if you do have questions, reach out. You you will get a response. But uh I appreciate this. I know you've been traveling, I know you have a lot of other things going on. So I appreciate you coming and uh I feel like we just got we just got schooled. We just got uh our our uh credits and Enneagram history 101.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Oh, and and uh if I could, I I didn't plug our podcast, right? So the awareness and enneagram podcast, I invite people to. And uh I think we just did our today recorded our 95th episode. So um uh, you know, feel free to uh to go there as well. And but look, Sarah, I I appreciate the uh invitation. I always enjoyed talking to you and uh you know um hope uh people found this to be of interest.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

I I think so. I think so. We we answered a lot of uh burning questions today. So I appreciate it. And uh I'm sure uh listeners will be finding you on social media or over on the podcast. So thanks for being here, Mario. Thank you.