Enneagram at Work
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This is a podcast about understanding people at work and navigating professional relationships. We spend so much of our time at work; why not make it more enjoyable by working on creating more enjoyable relationships with our teammates?
Listen in each week to gain self-awareness, relationship management, leadership development, personal growth insights, and real-life application ideas through the lens of the Enneagram inside educational episodes and interview conversations.
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Enneagram at Work
159. Co-Worker Dynamics of Type 2 and Type 9 feat. Michelle Zapata & Ryan Lenocker, Dallas Cowboys - Digital Signage Team
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Enneagram Twos are striving to feel connected.
Type Nines are striving to feel at peace.
What's the coworker compatibility of these types on a team?
Find out how those core strategies show up in a real-world working relationship between Digital Signage Manager and Type 9, Ryan Lenocker and Digital Marketing Technology Specialist and Type 2, Michelle Zapata.
When you listen in you'll hear about how they see their strengths complimenting their work relationship and how they've gotten a deeper understanding of their differences and potential friction points.
If you happen to identify with one of these types yourself, hearing Michelle and Ryan share about their experiences you'll be able to relate. And if neither of these is your core strategy, listen in because you'll gain a better understanding of these types at work and may end up learning more about your own co-worker.
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Connect with Michelle on Linkedin and let her know what you're taking away from this episode:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-zapata-m-s-1424906b/
Connect with Ryan on Linkedin and let him know what you enjoyed most about this interview:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rlenocker/
You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. Today is going to be a fun episode because we have some guests in this one. And um, these, I was just telling our guests today, these are some of my favorite because we get to hear about the Enneagram in real life, kind of how people are really using and thinking and what they're taking away from the Enneagram. So we have two special guests today that work together. So this will be fun to kind of hear how they're using the Enneagram in their self-awareness journey as well as their relationships at work and specifically with each other. So I have Michelle to welcome, and then I have Ryan to welcome to the show. Michelle, would you start off introducing yourself? Let us know kind of what you do. Um there both Michelle and Ryan are with the Dallas Cowboys organization. Let us know what you do, what type you uh and what type you most identify with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, hi, I'm Michelle Zapata. And like Sarah just said, I work with the Cowboys and I've been with the team for 10 years. I just got my 10-year ball uh for my anniversary last uh last Friday. So it's I've been here a while, and luckily I've been able to work with Ryan for like eight of those 10 years. So we have a really good dynamic, and that's why I when you asked who I wanted to do the podcast with, I knew it would have to be Ryan because we've seen each other through so much that I think we really do understand each other's personalities. Um, but for the team I um I do digital signage, I'm the digital signage team lead. And that entails us uh programming content to uh various video boards around both facilities, the stadium and the star, and even some pro shops uh around the country and even some out of state or not the country. Oh, yeah, the country. A couple in Texas and a few, a few outside. Um so me and my team, we're just getting that content, making sure it's going everywhere it needs to go. Uh, whether it's the 3,000 screens at AT ⁇ T Stadium or just a couple screens in the football uh weight room over here, we're we're touching everything that has that has a screen. So that's what I do for the team. And uh my Enneagram type is two. And I'm sure that'll be pretty uh prevalent as we keep going through this uh podcast.
SPEAKER_02I'm excited to hear more about that. Just out of curiosity, so I know um you are leading a team now. How how big is the team? What is what does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so our digital science team, I think, is up to six, and then a couple other external people that we have to collaborate with. Um I lead about three to four of them, and Ryan oversees all of us. And this is new, but what's been helpful is Ryan has allowed me to take some leadership roles throughout my tenure here. So moving into that transition was was fairly smooth and um really easy to work with everyone because I'd already built that rapport of just kind of being the tenured person here, too, was really helpful for that transition.
SPEAKER_02Ryan, I'm gonna I'm gonna uh hop you in here. Welcome. Thank you for being here. Um, I know that you identify most with the Enneagram type nine. Love to hear a little bit about what resonates with you when it comes to that type, and then what your role is in the the IT department and and with the Cowboys organization.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Thanks, Sarah. Uh my name's Ryan Lenicker. I'm the manager of digital signage and our IT event support for the Dallas Cowboys. I've been an employee for eight years. I was a contractor here for five more, and I've been in sports for almost 25 years. So I've I've I've been from the minor leagues all the way up to what can be argued as one of the most successful teams in special sports. I've had several careers like a lot of us of a certain age uh have gone through. Uh where you're like, all right, I'm done with this. What else what else appeals to me? Um so I've been able to use a lot of that life experience to kind of help and coach Michelle along on her journey into management from just the two of us working all day, breaking basically breaking for lunch to go home or for dinner to go home, and say, all right, I'll I'll talk to you later because we're still not done with getting um getting our our tasks and responsibilities taken care of for event sports. So we that's really bonded us over the years when it really was just the two of us trying to keep all the plates spinning.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay. Now I know that you had said um kind of that striving to feel at peace was the one that stood out to you the most with the type nine. What made you uh feel like, oh, out of all of them, this resonates the most?
SPEAKER_00On top of the descriptions for a top nine, I'm also a Libra, which also goes directly in. I was like, well, these are it doesn't matter what we're talking about, this is 100% me. Pretty much just trying to uh keep everything calm and and level. Uh sometimes I see both sides a little too much. Which having Michelle and a two being a two, not I won't say impulsive, but definitely she's ready to jump in. Let's go, let's get this thing done. I'm like, hold on. Yeah, did we look consider this, this, and this? So I've kind of tapped the brakes for her, and she's like, no, make a decision, let's go. So it's been a good relationship for the both of us.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And um, Michelle, what about the type two that striving to feel connected led you to believe, oh my gosh, like this is me. This is how I see this show up in my life, in my role.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's funny. I uh I obviously I'm really close friends with a lot of people in this IT department and in this organization that will hear this and understand it from both personal and uh my work dynamic here. Um, I really strive, just like two says, to feel connected to people. Uh, so much so that if there's something that I can work on or help Ryan with, I want to do it. And even this department works with so many other departments, digital signage touches, HR, football operations, uh, external events, the our broadcast engineering event, like our broadcast engineering team. So I get to meet and talk to so many people to just collaborate with them or or help them in any sort of way, which is ideally what I love doing. Uh, but it doesn't just stop there within the organization as far as work goes. I also am co-chair of the League at the Star, which is our um intramural sports within the entire organization. So I do it with uh one of my best friends here, Jennifer Johnson, and we uh we co-chair it and we brought kickball back this year. We had it last year. We get 90 people from the organization who sign up and we make six different teams, and we have six weeks long of regular season and then a playoff game. And this is our third year doing it uh because it's something that early on back in 2019, me and my friends were like, we want to play sports, but we don't want to keep doing it in the city's surrounding. Like, why don't we just do it in our organization? So that's how I kind of became uh chair and co-chair of it. And it's just something I keep doing, and it it's so impactful and significant for me because I get to see 90 other people get to know each other too. Like I get to know them and I get to watch them get to know each other. And some of the feedback we always get is that people are just so excited to meet new people in the organization that they wouldn't ever met because their paths don't cross. Um, but that's something that really drives me. And the fact that I get to do it at work personally, like it's personal and still within the organization, uh, is something that's really important to me. And then outside of work, I mean, any of my friends, you know, connection is something that I want to do. I want to be engaged, I want to have great conversations with everybody. I try to stay uh connected with most people, not just the best friends, but like even acquaintances. I'll be like, hey, let's get a coffee, let's meet. I connection is super, super big for me.
SPEAKER_02Okay, that is such a great example of how that two energy, that striving to feel connected shows up. And um, I'm glad that you brought that up because sometimes people will think um, you know, certain jobs or certain departments will have like more of a certain type. So for example, IT, I think might have like this stereotype that it's like a lot of data, a lot of details. But what I love that you said is like, well, I'm bringing these strengths of connection where we have to work with all these different departments to this, to this IT department. And so it just is another example of it doesn't matter what type you are, you can be successful in any role when you're leveraging your strengths with intention and and and for the good of the group. So that was another great one. Um Ryan, I have a question for you. And this is something that that I see and I hear a lot is that um, you know, when you read these leadership books um, or you hear about like what makes a great leader, a lot of times it's kind of like this big, bold, sometimes like aggressive energy. And I always love talking to leaders who are not the typical three or maybe the typical eight. Um, and and and learn a little bit, just add some other perspectives to what a great leader looks like. It's not just always that stereotypical kind of, you know, eights get that reputation, I think sometimes. So I'm curious, what it what do you see in yourself with that striving to feel at peace, being able to see all sides, uh, that level head, bringing the calmness. How have you seen that be a strength in your leadership journey?
SPEAKER_00For me, and I've tried to trickle this down to Michelle and then to our team as we've expanded, is um you don't have to be the one, the the cheerleader out front all the time. Which what you're talking about, the the the three, the eight, zero, the two sometimes. Um it's okay to uh let the rest let everybody else in the room have a voice. Uh a lot of people just want to be heard even if they're not at a decision-making level. Um one of the things and and my wife is uh a retail district manager, and she's very much into and a lot of the things that she's used. I I try to adopt those tools into my leadership style as well. And a lot of it is not just giving commands. Nobody wants to be barked at, nobody wants to be told what to do all the time. A lot of times it's well, she'll bring me uh um a task or a challenge, and the first thing I do is like, well, what do you think we should do? Because that gives you buy-in, that makes you a part of the decision, whether we go with your solution or not. It makes you your voice heard and it makes you feel like you're contributing to the success of the program, the project, whatever you're working on. Um and if it isn't a hundred percent the direction we want to go with it, it you don't go, oh, that's stupid, we're not doing that. It's hey, that's a great idea. I don't know that it's going to work for this project. Let's keep that in mind. We have pages and pages of notes written down, digital, stuck in the back of our heads, like that doesn't work for this solution, but it doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Let's keep talking about it, but that might come up again later, and we can use that on something else. And that's a lot of stuff that maybe I wouldn't think of. Um whether it's uh an experience gap or age or uh Enneagram type. Michelle brings a whole different skill set to the equation than I bring. And just because I might have more experience uh in a leadership role doesn't mean I have all the answers. Nobody does. Or this would be easy.
SPEAKER_01Right. I'd love to touch on that too, because that's something that's helped me get to where I'm at and not not helped me get to where I'm at, not just being a leader now, but it helped me grow professionally in my life altogether because Ryan always gave me a voice. And we're in meetings, and anybody's talking to him and they're collaborating, and then he would always bring me back into a conversation because he knew that that was going to help build my confidence and that was gonna help me feel like he could trust me in my responses. So he would always have a collaboration with someone and then turn to me and go, What do you think? And it let me speak in a room that I didn't know I could speak in. And that gave me so much power in trusting myself too. And Ryan's been a great champion of me through my whole career.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. Well, you know, they call the leadership style of the type nine the consensus builder for that very reason. Um, they're they'll they'll are wanting to bring people to the table, they're wanting to give people their voices. And to your point, Ryan, like you may not always have the best idea, but just to allow people to be heard makes them want to follow you, like makes them, you know, want to be led by you. So I love that you said that. And I love that you kind of piggybacked off that, Michelle. Um, I was actually gonna ask you what is a strength that you see as a type nine in Ryan. So you kind of touched on that. If you want to add anything, I'll I'll I'll give you that opportunity. Ryan, I was going to ask you the same about Michelle, knowing that, um, and I'm sure she has a lot of qualities, um, but just being, you know, on the Enneagram at Work podcast as a type two, striving to feel connected, having that strength of making connections. Um, is there like how do you see Michelle using that as a strength on the team?
SPEAKER_00A lot of times when you're faced with a task or a problem or project, there's no one saying, ah, yes, you guys have figured it out. That's the right answer. So sometimes you can die by committing. Which I my wife has loved to point out. Uh but to have a sell in that voice and that energy. She says, Nope, I think this is the one we need to do. Let's commit to it. It doesn't mean we can't change direction if we go down that path, but she helps get the ball rolling, get things moving, helps energize the rest of the committee or the group or the folks at the table saying this is the thing we should do. This I'm really excited about this. And it pumps up the confidence in the decision you guys have that we as a group have made. That, yep, I think we're going the right direction.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So it sounds like it's that balance of let everybody be heard, but then also moving forward with with action at some point.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Um uh and now you don't have to get too deep, you don't have to get too personal if you don't want to. I'm I'll leave this pretty wide open. But it has there been a time between the two of you where there's been a misunderstanding or there's been some conflict and kind of what you're learning about yourself or what you know about yourself and each other, it's like, oh, this is why we we might butt heads, or this is why that happened.
SPEAKER_00Sure, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would love it. It's really it's benign. Sometimes I need more fire out of Ryan to like uh go up to that for us in a more fiery way. Um, but his calm nature and he doesn't want conflict, he doesn't take that approach. And it's not that it's wrong, but it's something that I think I'm looking for from him. Um, where I think I struggled with that when we first started working together. It just felt like his passion on the same thing I was having passion about wasn't being met. And I found that difficult in making it seem like he didn't care as much as I did, but he did. He just he doesn't want to take that conflict approach. Um and so that's actually helped me learn to not be so confrontational too. Uh, because I do get real fiery and and um, you know, uh passionate about things. And so he through his night, it's actually helped me calm down. But I do think that was a struggle for us to start with. Um and I I needed confrontation a lot. He just didn't take that approach. And I've learned I've learned a lot to come down from it. Um and I think we go into conversations now where we trust each other and knowing I could be more direct with him and and he can with me. Um, because before I was kind of also in in relation to me, when I would make a mistake, I wanted him to say, you messed up. This is why do better. But he he also never took that approach. So I was like, is he mad at me? Is he not mad at me? Did I actually mess up? Did I not mess up? It was hard for me to understand him. Uh, but now through our relationship, I I do. No, I just tell you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, that is, and that that makes sense with with that nine energy. And you know, um, I think sometimes twos on the surface and initially have this reputation. And I can't remember if we talked about this or not, but um, like people will think, oh, these these twos are just helping everybody. They're bringing casseroles over, they're stopping on the sidewalk and helping people, and they're just so like helpful. And that that may be true. Um, but also twos can be very fiery as well because they care so much. That passion comes from a place of deep care. Um, and what I hear from twos is they they will talk about. So our listeners know about um how each type kind of has two resource points that they're connected to. And it's interesting because the two has a connection to the type A that can be very passionate. And so you can use it as a supportive strategy. Sometimes it can get you in trouble when it's dialed up too much. Um, but that intensity, that passion absolutely shows up for the twos. And I don't know that people always think about that initially. Um, Ryan, has there been anything that has been um in I guess interesting uh as you've learned about Michelle over the years? And yes, I I know you guys have been working together for it sounds like eight years now. So it's not all just about the Enneagram, but understanding, oh wow, she really values connections. Um any any kind of new insights or aha since you all have been uh bringing the Enneagram to the team.
SPEAKER_00I mean it's it's it's just shed a little bit more light on the why. I've gotten, I won't say used to her, but once now that we've gone through this uh as a team, I mean it's easy to check the boxes and go, yep, that's Michelle. That's 100% Michelle. Oh, I see why she's like that. Versus uh accepting each other as a coworker and and a friend and how you work together as a team. Just like, well, that's who you know, that's how Sarah is, that's how Michelle is. This is a little more of the why, um which helps.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Helps understand and go. I I see where she's coming from. It's not that she just had too much coffee today, she's just yeah. Well, sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sometimes they do have too much coffee and both of them. So yeah, yeah, sometimes. Uh I think not to point out my um weakness here, but going back to your question of how we've had difficulties dealing with each other, is I'm overextending myself a lot, even in the organization. And I'm not just on the kickball co-chair committee. I I'm I'm doing another women's, you know, employee research group committee. I'm doing uh committees inside of our department. I'm I'm overextending myself a lot. Um and it it takes, you know, I only have so much of a play. It does take away from some of my work responsibilities. And as my boss, he's seeing that. And so he's wondering why I'm overextending myself. But now that we have the two, he now can, like he said, understand the why. It's still something we should address and I should work on my time management, absolutely. And we've had these conversations, and you know, I think that's some of the growth that I've had this year is I I took a step back from a few of the committees that I was on so that I wasn't making these misses and mistakes in my work responsibilities while still being able to still be true to my two and connect with people in one other committee. I just don't need to be in 10 committees. And so that was a difficult conversation I know that we had to have, but he wanted me to refocus myself and be better about time management.
SPEAKER_02I will say you're you're not alone. I've heard that for from other types too, but for from from twos, that that is a thing. It's that um that boundaries. And I love what you said. It's like I don't have to have a hard, like absolutely, you know, 10 to zero, but it's like maybe instead of 10, it's like one or two to your point. So I love that. Um, so I I'm always kind of curious because sometimes um, well, uh, when we do an initial workshop or we introduce the Enneagram to a team, um, there's always some skepticism, which makes sense. I think whether it's the Enneagram or just any, any, any kind of personality, it's like, I don't know, is this steeped in science? Is this astrology? Who's this person gonna tell me I am? So I'm I always am curious to know prior, like where you were with your own Enneagram knowledge, like had you come into it with a little understanding? Were you still trying to figure out how to pronounce it in that camp? Um, and then kind of what questions or skepticism did you have? And then where where did you kind of leave uh after the day or after our time together?
SPEAKER_00I've been exposed to it a little bit. Uh again, my wife with her retail uh management experience has been through several different um charts and all that. She's done a lot of the different trainings. Um my twin daughters have went through it uh through a leadership class. And the three of them are other than those. I was like, oh, hold on, I don't know what you're talking about. Um so I I've been exposed to it just a little bit, but not nearly as clearly or uh in-depth as the presentation we got. I was like, oh, okay, now I understand.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh for me, when we did this originally for IT, it was new to me. A couple of my friends had done it and talked about it, but I wasn't really um, you know, had enough detail on each of them. And so we did it the the questions, and then I got my results back and I was a two. And as I was reading it, I was crying in the office because I felt so seen. But then I started to, to be honest, I started to feel like attacked at the same time because I was like, wait a minute, I am a lot of this too, but then it was like when it was going into how twos um are difficult for other people, I was like just feeling like, wow, that that really hurts. And knowing how twos retaliate when they aren't feeling connected, when they aren't feeling like they're getting appreciation, I was like, man, twos kind of suck. And I don't like how and is this me? And then I was really conflicted. But then as uh I kept reading it and talking about it with people, I was like, okay, like it's not as bad as I felt the first time. Like this is starting to make a lot of sense. And so when we met um at the retreat, I was I was just so excited to learn more about it because I felt so secure and in being a two and accepting the good things and the bad things and and all that. Because I talked to my friends about it and even talked to people at work about it. So um I was hurt at first, but then realized that it was it was okay.
SPEAKER_02That's uh that's that's typically how you know it's like, oh, I don't want to be this type. And like that's typically the type because I felt the same way, Michelle, when I read all the things about the seven. I was like, oh no, I I don't want nope, this isn't what I want. I don't want people to think that's about me. I get that. You're not alone. Um I'm curious, has there been any? So we've we've kind of talked about um the dynamic between the two of you. Has there been any, and we don't have to like name names or specific situations, but has there been any other aha's about your work relationships or maybe your your role and other relationships now that you kind of understand? Oh, this is what I'm really great at. This is what I bring to the table. And to your point, Michelle, like, oh, this is like when it's turned up too high, this is how that impact might affect somebody. Or wow, this person's really turned up and they're kind of uh getting under getting under my skin. And now I understand why that is. Um, any any aha's or kind of other relationships you've been able to better navigate now that you have this awareness?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I yeah, I have I have some. I'll go. Um what we talked about too on the on the retreat was um it and it might have been the twos, it could have been the sevens, I don't remember, but I I think it was the twos, wanting to be connected. And so when I'm in a meeting, I'm and before it starts, I'm like, hey, how was your weekend? What did you do? Like, and I'm trying to talk to people at work and connect with them. And there are people around the room who are like, I don't want to talk to you about my weekend. And I think learning that I was doing it for that reason and not being able to recognize someone didn't want to talk. I think I learned that better now after our conversation of just like let people divulge what they want to, and I need to do a better job of reading and not trying to like pull it out of them. Um, if they want to talk, they'll talk if they don't want to. That's okay too. Because I would feel personally attacked, like, oh, why don't they want to share the recon with me? Which are I'm just trying to be nice, like, why don't they want to talk about it? But learning it's not personal, it's just somebody isn't as willing to be as open as I am. So learning that, especially in the office dynamic when I'm going into a meeting has been really helpful.
SPEAKER_00Eights. Figuring out eights. Um when the people when we broke out into our our numbers, our primary numbers, and we saw the table of eights and we talked to it. Oh, again, it was that it was that understanding that why, putting that light on that, and that they're not just um demonstrative bullies. So it's I'm in charge, this is what we're doing. Get on board. Well, there's a little bit of that, I mean, you get that with regardless of what your number it is. Um but that wasn't where they were coming from. Not all the time. And understanding that uh has definitely helped quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a that's a really interesting uh pairing, the eight and the nine, because there's so many things that seem to be almost opposite. Um, and and that can be very challenging. Um, but then to your point, it can also be such a great uh, you know, synergy. It can be such a great relationship where you, you know, balance each other out. Um, and then it's just kind of understanding, oh, they're not doing this with malice or bad intent and working together. And um, Michelle, I want to piggyback off what you said. That is such a simple thing, the the how is your weekend, how is your vacation kind of question. But that continues to be like one of the top ahas in all of these groups is just understanding like who wants to have that conversation and and who doesn't. And um, who can I have that conversation with? Um, and who might I be overwhelming or or or vice versa. Um, and on the flip side of that, sometimes the question is, okay, well, how how can I add in more time? Because I know that for Michelle, she wants this. Um, and so it's just a little thing, but it can mean so much to a relationship. So um, well, I I appreciate the two of you uh opening up a little bit on a podcast about your personality and and your relationship. Um, I know that that's not always the most comfortable. So I appreciate you. Um people always learn so much from um hearing about how you experience it, whether they can see themselves in a two or a nine and say, oh my gosh, yep, that's me. Or it's like, oh, I get this. So I I appreciate that. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about today that you would like to add that would maybe make this interview feel more complete?
SPEAKER_00Miss Two?
SPEAKER_01No, I I I think you had great questions. I think you did a wonderful job.
SPEAKER_02Um that I love that about the twos. They're always hype, they're always hyping me up, uh, hyping us all up, making us feel good. Um, well, I I appreciate it. Um we will get your LinkedIn um links, like your LinkedIn links. And so if anybody wants to just say thank you or drop you a note, we'll we'll do that. Um, and with that, I appreciate it. And uh I hope to see you all uh again sometime soon. Of course. Thank you, Sarah. Thanks for having us on.
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