SPEAKER_00 0:03

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. I am your host, Sarah Wallace, and today they're always really fun in their unique way, but today is a really fun episode because we're going to do a little bit uh behind the scenes of a new look that Enneagram MBA recently received. And so we're going to talk to two of the individuals behind the rebrand, learn a little bit more about the process, what we did specifically, and then also I thought it would be fun to kind of share all of our Enneagram types and chat a little bit about our working uh dynamic with those types. So please welcome to the show, Ariana and Matt Royerman, and they are the founders and kind of leads leadership team here at Ink and Crafts. So welcome to the two of you. Thanks, Arian.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Okay, so we can kind of tell whose voice is who. Sometimes we have to do uh, you know, this is who it is, but I think our listeners can figure it out. So before before we get started, um, I had a question. Um, I know that you all run Ohio-based uh branding business, really focused on the strategy part as well as kind of the the look, the design. So one of the questions I wanted to start off with by understanding is sometimes when people think, oh, Enneagram MBA got a new logo, but it's been so much more than that. So can you talk a little bit about just kind of high level the work that you do and how it's so much more than just a new logo?

SPEAKER_04 1:58

Yeah, so branding work, um, when you do it, the logo is one portion of it, but really branding work is all about the strategy. It's all about how you want to appear in the market, it's all about the types of customers you want to attract, it's um the types of what your competition is and how you want to be different than your competition. Um, so the logo is one sort of output of all that work, but really um you sort of have to back it up a little bit and say, you know, who do I want to attract? What what vibe do I want my business to have? What direction do I want my business to have? Um, who am I competing with in the market? And then from there, you sort of you start to craft a strategy and the visuals to support that strategy so that you can get your business to where you want to get it to.

unknown 2:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

And we're gonna talk a little bit about uh the anyagram MBA process specifically later on. Um, but I think uh that part is so important and uh helpful and just understanding it's yeah, like you said, it's so much more about the look and and what do we who do we want to attract? What do we want to communicate with that? So um I know that you all have been doing this work for a long time. So if you if you want to share that, I I'm willing. I'd love to hear more about that. But also um I'd love to hear about what do you love about this, about this work that you do?

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Um yeah, we've been designers for over 20 years um in all different capacities, um, agents for working for agencies around the country as designers, as art directors, and started Inc and Craft about seven years ago, really focusing on brand strategy, graphic design, and then the ultimate outputs of building those brands. Um, for me, my favorite part is really meeting all of these business owners and having that interaction with them and learning about their businesses and their really unique challenges, especially as a business owner myself. It's always interesting to hear that and to come at it with you know our unique perspective as business owners. And we work to help business owners in all different industries. We're not industry specific. So if we're working with a cookie company or like an HVAC company or, you know, your business, it's always really interesting to meet these business owners, learn about their challenges. Um, so that that personal connection and and meeting meeting all these people is really one of my favorite parts.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

Yeah, I mean, the part that I like, and uh it probably feeds into my type, and we'll get into that later. Um, I like the problem solving part of it. So um as a designer, you know, you sort of take all of these aspects that the client gives you and the research you do on the market and the direction that you want to head, and you sort of have all of these loose pieces, and it's your job to create um both visuals and sort of communication plans that meet all of these needs. So it's really it's a little bit of that, you know, beautiful mind pulling the strings aspect of it. So, you know, I really like uh that. That's uh as as entrepreneurs, we wear a lot of hats, but the that's the hat that I I think best fits me and I most enjoy wearing.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Oh, okay. We are we're gonna put a pen in that because we're coming back to you said that. Um before we get there, I did just want to ask, um, in your experience, and I'm happy to share my why I reached out, but in your experience, when is it um a good time for companies who are thinking about redesigning or maybe up-leveling? Because I know you've done a couple of those projects. Obviously, I think it's uh an immediate trigger for anybody who's starting a business to start to think, oh, I need a website, I need a name, I need a logo. So that one I think is pretty um, you know, it comes probably comes uh quicker for most. But when we're thinking about okay, elevating our look, what are some things for other companies to consider?

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Um, yeah, I feel like the ideal time for clients when they come to us, the ideal point in their business is where they're really at an inflection point where they're not just starting out, but they've been in business for a long enough where they're seeing success, they're getting traction. Um, they've been wearing all of the hats for so long, up until this point. Um, and as they're growing and they have so much on their plate, they're realizing, okay, I'm at a point now where number one, with my brand, I'm ready to level up. Um, you know, when we met, Sarah, I know that you were talking about like a glow-up for your brand. Yeah. Um, so really ready to take that next step visually, graphically, um, in terms of your messaging. And then also you're at a point where, okay, I've been doing all of the things as a business owner, and I'm ready to start really delegating and handing these big chunks off and clearing, clearing room off my plate, giving these to, you know, hiring professionals to do these things so that I can focus on the core of my business and what I do best. So for us, um, those are the best clients for us, um, businesses who are really right where you were, Sarah, when when you found us.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Okay, and I will say, and listeners now, I identify most of the NAV room seven. And so it's like the shiny, fun new ideas. And so I have loved uh spending time in Canva and like tweaking things and just pretending like I'm a little designer over here. And um, to your point, that was one of the um it's kind of a challenge, I guess, for for me to overcome this year was to look for help doing things that weren't my immediate area of expertise because I enjoy it sometimes and you know I can get by on it. Um, so I loved what you said about not just thinking about the the look, but also kind of strategy-wise inside your own business and processes and kind of starting to clarify roles and responsibilities. And uh, you know, I'm probably not the best person to be doing all the design work anymore. So as much as I I love to tinker in Canva. Um okay, so let's let's talk a little bit Enneagram here. Um, so I'm wondering, okay, so I I know uh Ariana, you're the the type one of of this group, kind of striving to go perfect. And I know Matt, you were you were kind of uh had a couple, but maybe landed on that type five uh energy with kind of that problem solving. Is is that still where where you're at?

SPEAKER_04 9:07

Yeah, I I I was in between a five and an eight, but the more I learned about the differences, you know, uh watching watching your your podcast and and reading about the differences, the more I'm like, nah, I'm really more the five.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Okay, okay, okay. Well, let me okay, and what made you say that? What makes you say that?

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Um mainly um protective of my time. Um so I can uh I'm doing better with my shortcomings. Uh, I can come off as short and disinterested. It is not that. Um, but that is um, I guess that's how I come off to some people, but again, it's in it's sort of in that five gathering information mode. So, you know, what's the efficient way to gather information is to be direct and to gather it and move on. Some people can see that as like that guy doesn't like me at all. Um I um I think one of the powerful things about the Enneagram is that when you start to learn more about your type and you start to interact with other people and they're giving you feedback on your personality and and other things like that, um, you start to think, yeah, I can see myself there. And then you start to learn about your strengths and your weaknesses. And for me in particular, I don't know if it's a type 5 thing or not, but I focus more on the weaknesses um and ways that I can um sort of overcome them. So trying to not come off so I've been labeled as gruff, um, trying not to come off as so gruff, trying to be interested in things outside of the task that is given at the moment, um, and sort of uh working to soften the the five edge of myself.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

That's so great. Okay, I think other fives are just really gonna appreciate what you said about uh all of that, but especially the uh kind of coming off as distant or aloof sometimes. Uh because to your point, typically fives, a lot of it's happening in their heads. And so you won't get the emotions, you won't get the hand gestures, the the you know, the tonality. It's just kind of like show me the data, don't give me the drama kind of energy. And a lot of that, um, one of their nicknames is the observer. And so it's like you're not doing a lot when you're observing, you're like it's it's happening where other people can't see it. And so uh that is a key um kind of coworker compatibility conversation that we'll have about people's type five teammates because they'll think they don't care what I say, they don't participate in my meetings. It's like, oh no, I'm actually really engaged, I'm really tuned in. I'm just I'm taking it in and I'm listening. So it was it was fun to hear you call that out, Matt. Um, Ariana, what resonates with you about the type one striving to feel perfect?

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Um, for me, it was never a question like it was for Matt. Like, I know and feel very much that I'm pretty much a one through and through. Um, I like having things buttoned up. Um, I like knowing what is coming. I'm not great with uncertainty or um not really knowing what's coming down the road, which makes it sometimes hard as a business owner to kind of navigate that. Um, it's nice to be with a five who is so steady. Um, so yeah, I think I definitely resonate with those aspects. And also in terms of kind of our working together, I'm very much detail-oriented. And I mean, I can see a typo a mile away and I can't unsee it, um, which is kind of funny with us working together. Matt is very much um big picture, innovative ideas. Um, let's throw everything at this project at the beginning. And you know, he'll ask me to look at a look at something he's working at. Um, and sometimes he has to preface it with, this isn't the final. So just, you know, take I want to gut check. Let me know, you know, what's your initial impression? And my eye automatically goes, Oh, but that word's misspelled. Oh, so yeah, I I don't, I mean, that's like a little snapshot into um, you know, how that works together. But um, yeah, very, very detail-oriented. And I I like things to be a certain way. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

I love that. Okay, so here's something I wanted I meant to say too that I really uh want listeners to walk away with. And and I think it's so interesting is that sometimes you're talking about the stereotypes. Well, sometimes uh the type fours get all the credit and have the stereotype as being the most creative out of all. Like they're striving to feel unique, they have the kind of this vision. Steve Jobs is sometimes kind of the the real life, one of the real life leadership examples we'll talk about. And so it's like, oh, if you're creative, you must be a four, or it's gonna be a lot harder for a type one who is so focused on being perfect, you know, perfect to be creative, or a type five. I mean, how are they gonna be creative? And it's so interesting, and I and I love that it's like anybody can do any job, they can be great at anything, it's just more about the strategy and the way they're gonna go about that thing. So I thought I wanted to, I wanted to call that out. Um, so uh now you might have touched on this a little bit, but what do you see, or do you have anything else to add to those strengths? And I know you said we all focus on our weaknesses, I think. So you're not alone at first, but what strengths do you see that you've been able to bring in, maybe from that type five energy, in either kind of being a business owner, the the client work you do, the communication, the strategy sessions you run, any any specific examples about oh yeah, I could see this being a strength um in what we do here?

SPEAKER_04 15:09

Yeah, I I think this the the five strength is that problem-solving ability. So it's uh I know with Ariana and her being one, it's take the data at the moment, and that's like that's her data set for the whole thing. Like uh, you gave me criteria. I built the thing according to the criteria you gave me on day one. My mentality is things are always sort of shifting. So I'm always absorbing data, I'm always absorbing strategy, I'm always absorbing inspiration. So, like we had a strategy session early on. I took that information, developed some things. We had, you know, a first concept presentation I showed you, you gave me more input. So I'm constantly sort of evolving and navigating this stream with the data that I'm that I'm observing, which I think plays well into my type. Um, I think one of the primary differences between the typical art artist, number four, and the number five is um I've done art in the past, I like to be creative. Um, my creativity tends to be problem-solving creativity, not expressive creativity, not emotional creativity, expressive creativity, whatever you would call that. So usually what I make and produce is has a strong rationale behind it. And it's not this is what I was feeling at the moment, or this is you know who I'm trying to impress. It's like, no, this was what you gave me. I produced something. You gave me more information, I produced something else, and we'd sort of go down that path. And you know, I always describe it to our clients as you're going from wide all the way down to narrow. So you want to be wide at the top and you want to constantly adjust, and you know, your your river might go this way, your river might go that way, but you want to get to eventually narrow, and it's not like a straight line from concept to final.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Okay, so I want to say something, and and um sometimes type fives are also known as um thought the like the thought leader because of that that problem solving, and and it's not exactly to your point, it's like uh creative problem solving, not necessarily look at this unique one-of-a-kind thing that's never been done before. Um so one thing that I also wanted to share, and I haven't I haven't told you this yet, um, is uh so one of the challenges for types like me, um, sevens, I don't know that this gets called out a lot, but we we can be some some hardcore people pleasers. Um, and we want to keep things like really positive, and anything that feels like even neutral, the negative just feels like, oh my God, I I don't want to, I don't wanna say that. Um nines are also probably over here with me, maybe some twos. And so what I really appreciated, like this was a real world example of this was this was a challenging process for me at first because it was like it wasn't all my ideas anymore. So I had to let go of some control, which I really liked. Um, and somebody else had to have some ideas, and I had to like get out of my typical lens of seeing things. And then, you know, you uh you all had shared a couple of initial ideas, and um, there was some feedback that we had, but I have one of my gross spots is to communicate clearly and directly and and provide feedback that is helpful instead of saying, oh no, it looks great, everything's fine. And and that's that is something that I have been working on for years and years and probably will do. And so when it when I was like, I don't know if I love this part of it, like that's even today, like this really difficult for me because I'm like, oh, I don't want to hurt someone's feelings, or I don't want them to think I don't like what they're doing. Um, and what I think is so great, and I hear this about type eights as well from people who work with type eight, is that it feels so safe to give people like you feedback because you don't make it emotional, like you don't take it personal. It's just, I think, kind of to your point where you were saying about information, it's just information. Oh, okay, I have new information now. Let me let me go back and let me do this. And okay, what about this? Whereas I know some people, regardless of the type, it's like, oh, it's a personal attack on me. And that creates a really uh tense or sensitive relationship when you feel like, oh man, I want to be honest with this person, but they can't handle it. And then, you know, it's a like, well, this person's not being honest or clear, and it's really hard to move something down the line. So that was one of the things that I really appreciated about working with with you both, really. Um, was like, oh, literally, whatever I say, I don't feel like they're getting mad at me or they're trying to judge. That's good.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

I mean, I I think the flip side of that is I mean, me more so than Ariana. Um, I can give feedback and give suggestions that can come off as attacks, which are not, because uh, you know, I'm not I'm not emotional. So I just give I just give them as I give them. And some people can be like, oh that is like a little rough.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

Um, so uh I'm trying to balance that actually. Um, when we were looking at uh Enigram stuff, I'm curious what your thoughts on this is, because I looked at some of the the other places and it and it says fives are not typically compatible with very many types. One of them that they have friction with is the enthusiasm and the excitement that a seven has.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

Um, so I I think it's interesting that you thought we worked well together because you felt safe in the sense that whatever you say, I'm not gonna like blow up and go go off in a huff or whatever. Um, I'm just gathering the information. Um, so working with you, I'm curious sort of how you thought you know our relationship progressed because I knew your type going into the project because on your website. You did not know our types going through the project. So we really resonated like you have such excitement and such enthusiasm in the project, and you're very and you were very open, and you're saying that was actually difficult for you. Um, you were very open to doing the process. Which some business owners are. Some business owners don't give you a lot of emotional feedback. So you're like, I don't, I don't know if they like where we're going or not. I don't know if they're on board with our suggestions because they're not giving us any any emotion, any verbal feedback, and they're just sort of sitting there and absorbing it. And it depends on the type. Um, but you were very giving in that sense. And then I figured out about halfway through that probably part of your type, you do need more time to make decisions. You're not able to just say, look at that and be like, Yep, that's where I want to go. You you you've you asked multiple times, like, can I just sit with this for a few days? Can I ask some people? Like, and that's fine. And like that's that's sort of one of those dynamics that you need to figure out. Like, okay, Sarah needs more time to this. It's fine. We'll build her in the schedule, it's it's not going to derail anywhere, versus somebody that could be like, that's where I want to go. You'll never change my mind. I want to head down that direction. So I'm curious how you, I guess, uncovered our personalities or began to understand how to work with us better. Because we knew your type going right into it.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Well, it's so funny that you said uh that was one of the things you noticed about let me think about this, because that's actually something that I've been working on as well. Because there are some people that see exactly, and I think there's probably a stereotype of an eight, but you know, again, any type, where it's like, oh, this is it. I know it. Um, and I would make decisions quickly, but I didn't have that certainty. And I would think about it more, and I'd be like, oh man, I just overcommitted myself, or I actually I don't really love that. Um, I just said it because I felt like that's what they wanted to hear, and now I'm thinking about it, and it's like not true. And so again, over the last few years, uh my default has been like, okay, don't make a decision, just ask if you can have some time, whether it's this project or any anything else. Um so because I do like in my head, I do need to like, what do I really want? And what do I think other people want from me? And just, you know, kind of going through that. So thank you for giving me that time. Um, and I'm I'm glad you noticed that. Um, yeah, I I I thought this was like a great dynamic because I really like it's really fun to work uh with other high energy, like seven type of people sometimes, these enthusiasts. Uh, but sometimes we don't get a lot done because it's just all these ideas and excitement, you know. Uh again, you know, sometimes stereotypes exist for a reason, and one that sevens have is all the ideas, and then something doesn't feel fun anymore or feels hard, and it's like, oh, on to the next thing. Never mind, never mind. Um, and so uh I thought this was great to have kind of a plan too. That was something else that I really appreciated was your um, and if you go to the Inc and Craft website, like they have a it's a five-step process kind of for what what it's gonna be like. Um, you know, research strategy, design, like delivery, I guess for. Um, and for me, and each time before we went through anything, it was helpful for me to see this is where we're at. Here's the end, like just kind of having a little plot. Um and I'm sure other types probably like you appreciate that, but I know I've also appreciated that a kind of direction, and uh, you know, we have a plan. This is where we're going, because I'm like, I I don't know um, you know, where we're going. So I'm I'm glad you do. Um, so that was good. And you know, um type fives, type eights, like you were saying, Matt, on the flip side, and sometimes type ones a little bit too, um, can have a little more um direct communication and it not come across um as friendly or as warm. And then it's like, oh my gosh, they're mad, or they did not use any exclamation marks in their email. We must not be okay. Uh, you know, something's off, or they didn't ask me how I was um before the meeting started. So I did notice that Matt did that every time, and I was I was wondering like, is this natural for him, or is this like something that he is working on, developed at you know, being in the the client-based business? Um so I I thought it was a great kind of mix of excitement, but also uh, you know, guided uh excitement.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

That's good I think that's great to hear. I mean, I think um for us, we're we try to be very aware that, you know, we feel like we know what we're doing with, you know, guiding the project and um helping our clients through the process um in terms of the strategy and the design, but we are also aware that kind of to your point earlier about you have to give up control of your baby. And so we try to be very sensitive of that, that business owners, you know, you're you're really entrusting us with laying out the strategy and crafting, you know, crafting where you're gonna be going. And we work very collaboratively with our clients, obviously, as you saw. Um, so it's great to hear that you felt, you know, like in a safe space with talking to us about your feedback or, you know, and I know that um when Matt has talked to you, when you've been on calls, he's showing you concepts, um, you know, that he's like, nothing's precious. Don't, you know, you're not gonna hurt my feelings, even though you love it, hate it, like just I want to know your feedback.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah, and that is that's helpful. And some people are are great with that. Um, and other people, yeah, like me, it can be a struggle because it's like, gosh, what do I, you know, what do I really think? Or I you know, I don't want this to come off harsh. Um, so that you know, that's that's that's the work over here we're doing.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

I think it it's interesting because you you sang the people pleasing aspect, and it it wasn't this way with with you, but I feel like we've had some other clients in the past that perhaps have told us what we wanted to hear rather than their actual opinions. And then you figure that out later when they start to like you know revolve or or you know, backtrack on some of their previous comments. And for me, um, another type five thing is is um time protective. So I I don't like things coming in last minute because I don't feel as though I can put the proper thought and quality into it. Um so if somebody gives me feedback and says this is the direction I want to head, I take that at the value that it's feedback, and then I, you know, adjust and head in that direction. If they're telling me that because they don't want to hurt my feelings, and then I adjust for an untrue reason, it becomes frustrating later. It's like, well, I mean, what did you expect me to do with the feedback? Of course I'm gonna go in the direction that you told me to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Um supposed to read their mind, Matt.

SPEAKER_04 29:23

I'm I'm curious because you met Ariana a few times before you met me. Um, could you tell uh without going through a formal typing uh exercise, could you tell our personality and our types just from daily interactions?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Well, I wasn't surprised when because I think you told me maybe at this, maybe it was at our strategy session two or three times after we had met, Ariana, that you identified as a type one. And I wasn't surprised. And um, I'll tell you something else I loved about what you all did, uh, just kind of creating a clear process and communicating that process clearly, um, is even that initial um, I guess, sales call or you know, information call before anything had been signed, you took me through a process. Um, and I felt like sometimes when I get on those calls working with other vendors, it's like, so tell me about your problems. What are we gonna do? And it just turns into kind of a chit chat. And you were like, Okay, I've asked you my questions. Now I have some things I'm gonna show you to walk you through this process. And that was really, that was really nice. Like, oh, okay. Um, and to your point, I think it felt like, oh, my time is being valued. They have this laid out, we're not just kind of talking about, you know, whatever. And then same thing with the strategy day, because I've been in on other strategy sessions for other things. Um, and it's just kind of like willy-nilly, you know, here's the end of the day goal. And it's like, well, how are we gonna get to that goal? And you had a very structured process. So um I really like that. What's interesting, um, and that this just hit me, is that um the you know, the deeper you go into the Enneagram, you got these like arrows and lines that connect. And my two growth kind of the biggest bang for my buck to start off with. And so I'm gonna do self-awareness and some growth work, is the type one and the type five are the two that I'm connected to. So it's that, um, so for the five, it's bringing in kind of that slowing down the initial impulse and to be more thoughtful about my decision making as a seven. And then for the one strengths to bring in is the discipline and the structure and the consistency. So I think about uh the strengths of the type one and the type five often because those are the things that I'm like, I kind of need to balance, you know, out the excitement. And you don't want to turn in to somebody else. Um, but it's just like, how can I make this better by, you know, how can I make my my business even better? How can I bring more excitement to my life because I have a routine and I have structure and I have a plan and I'm not frazzled and stressed and not completing things. So uh that that's kind of what comes up for me a lot. What was it um, because I know sometimes too, uh I I will you I will count my exclamation marks and emails and I joke about this even in my presentations. I said, listen, I'm I'm an exclamation mark queen and I will capitalize things. I love this. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark. And I'm like, oh, let me just let me only have two exclamation marks here. So uh and sometimes I think my worry is like, oh, I don't want to be overwhelming, or I don't want to be too excited that I'm not taken seriously. So those are things I I think about when I write my client emails, uh, and and that that type of communication. But uh I don't know if anything, if you were like, oh yeah, this girl, well, she's a we got a seven on our hands here.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

I actually no Ariana loves exclamation points. Because I feel like I resonate very much with that. Um, in all write emails and same kind of thing. And I'll kind of sometimes check with Matt, like, is this too like same kind of thing? Is this too many exclamation points? Is this this a weird way to end it? And I know that for him, his emails are like, hi Sarah, period. And you know, I it's just funny how you know you're writing an email and you don't have that kind of context of like a conversation or the nuance of your voice. Um, so for me, I think about that in the same way you do. Um whereas I know for him, like the thought of, oh, is this too grub or is this too, you know, emotive or whatever, like that's not even on his radar. So it's just I completely resonate with what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Well, you know, this is uh it's a it's kind of like a funny surface level thing, like exclamation marks in an email, or do you add, hi, how are you? How was your weekend? Or do you just get right into it? Um, but it is a thing that time and time again is like some of the biggest aha's from our workshops. Because especially if you don't work with somebody, like if I hadn't met Matt a couple of times or had a couple calls, and he was my coworker who worked remotely and we didn't have a lot of FaceTime or it was just in a meeting setting, um, I'd be like, gosh, this guy, you know, and he might be like, this this person, this, this woman over here is too tone it down, you know? And so that's why I really love having these conversations about your coworkers because it just is like in a matter of a minute, sometimes you're like, oh my gosh, I get them now, or hopefully they get me, or you know, we can figure out this email thing. I'm not gonna be offended. Um, so just little little things like that, regardless of your type. And sometimes gender plays into it, you know, culture, all these things. But uh, it's just like, okay, this is a starting point for a conversation with how should I be reading your emails? And and how might I be taking them wrong?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

And I think with us being a married couple owning this business together, people a lot of times when I talk to them say, oh, I could never, you know, I could never work with my spouse. Um, and I think knowing each other's types, um, I mean, obviously we've we know how the other one is, you know, for decades now, but knowing to not take you know a short answer personally, it's like he, you know, he's in the middle of working, he's got this deadline. I just need a quick answer. So I don't need a soft, fluffy, you know, long answer, just yes or no, and that's fine. So yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 35:51

Where where I I don't know if it's struggle, I think I'm getting better because I just have more FaceTime with clients uh, you know, as as my role evolves. Um emails, I I don't have a problem with. I feel like uh I can be warmer because I can spend time with them. I can read them a couple times, be like, yeah, that sounds good. And you know, that's appropriate. Um conversations sometimes, I mean, at least in my head, sometimes I just run out of things to talk about. Um whereas talking, I mean, talking to you, I don't run out of things to talk about because you take a lot of the conversation um role on because that's your personality, your excitement, your enthusiasm. You know, sometimes I'll be in conversations. You know, my my family is has similar personality types to me. Obviously, that's probably pretty common. Um, so I mean, sometimes we'll just get to the end and be like, well, I guess that's the end, and we'll just hang up. Just like run out of things to talk about. Like, like we went through our list and we're good. So I feel like I'm better written than I am spoken. Um, especially in dynamic conversations like what we haven't, you know, I'm trying to put myself out there and be better at it, but uh understanding that my type is to observe and gather information. And when I feel as though that that tap has run dry, then I'm like, all right, cool, we good?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Uh we have this family joke, uh, and I don't know if it has to do with the enneagram or not, but whenever we're just like done with a gathering, I don't know if it's a Midwest thing. We were also talking about that. We'll just be like, well, I guess it's that's so we we just ended my 40th dinner on a well well. So uh that's good. Okay, so I think I think um listeners will really appreciate this because this is I this these are dynamics, these are situations that happen all the time. I hear about these these scenarios. Um, and so I'm so glad we kind of had a uh a candid conversation about about our our types. Um briefly talking about the work that we did with Enneagram MBA. So I haven't really um speaking of being structured and uh having a plan, um, I am uh a little bit behind on my rollout of of the new look and and how how we're gonna do this. And so uh this podcast was I I thought a fun way to kind of meet the the people behind the rebrand and just to share a couple of things that we did and why. So um, Ariana, you were talking about why people reach out to you. And I will say um those are pretty much the reasons why I reached out to you was okay, I know this isn't kind of out of my wheelhouse now. And um, I'm just kind of ready for a look that matches some of the clients that we are working with as we grow, as we build the team, as we expand our offerings, as we work with larger organizations. It's just time to kind of have a look that you know matches the the what did I say, the glow up, the glow up. It's time it's time for a little glow-up. Um, so um, and and I I I was there, so I I I know, but I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about how you approach your strategy sessions for without revealing any you know trade secrets, um, for things that we that you kind of asked that we talked about that you were able to pull out that type of information needed to create a new look. What were some of the things that you were looking for?

SPEAKER_04 39:49

Yeah, so um a lot of it, you know, working with especially a business that's growing from um sort of a few uh, you know, one CEO, a few people, you know, growing into want to have more employees, want to have a higher trajectory. Um one, we gotta figure out where you're at today and the things that that make you who you are today. Uh we do a lot of research into the markets, um, comparing your existing brand to the other existing brands out there. And then we need to focus on where you want to go. So for you, I think one of the one of the really key takeaways is with your focus on business and and coworker dynamics, uh, it takes away some of the some of the softer uh Enneagram stuff that a lot of other people talk about uh because they're talking about spousal relationships or interpersonal relationships or other things like that. So with your focus on business, it's about coworker dynamics, where you obviously don't know your coworker as well as you know your spouse. Um what we were finding in the market is that most of the other companies that were focused on Enneagram for work were very serious. Like they were very targeting the CEO, and they're very, you know, sort of hard driving, and it's all about do this and be buttoned up and blah blah blah, and their looks tended to be sort of drab and gray and like you know, real sort of like business serious. That is not you, that is not your personality, um, and it's not um sort of the offering that you have to your customers. So, what what you wanted to represent in your brand is you wanted to present excitement, you wanted to present the enthusiasm that you have, you wanted to showcase that you can help people of uh diverse backgrounds, you know, diverse races, diverse economics. Um so it was really focused on how can you make the workplace a happier, better, easier place to go to every day and work with these people. So it ended up using a lot of bright colors, using a lot of um sort of many pieces coming together to work as a system, that approach, because metaphorically it fits where you want to go as a trajectory for your brand. I want to help a range of people with this excitement, with this enthusiasm. I want them to feel comfortable, I want them to want to come to my events. Um, I don't want them to feel like they're signing on the dotted line for this, you know, military-style change of personality uh drill program to get you to be a better CEO. I want them to feel like, you know, it's it's exciting, it's fun, it's learn about your personalities, and we can help you communicate and create better relationships. So um those insights came from that initial strategy where we met with you, and you and you know, I think you identified we had sort of things plotted on a on a sliding scale, and you identified it's like, yes, this is my competition, but I don't want to be like those. And we always tell business owners, I was like, that's what you want to find. Like you want to find your difference. And if you don't have a difference, that's going to be a problem for you in business because if you don't have a difference, you're gonna be compared in probably ways that you don't want to be compared. So finding your difference, whether it's speed, price, personality, etc., you know, there's all kinds of differences that can make one business better than another. Finding that difference is the key to brand strategy. And then once you have that difference, you can build the visual brand and the communication around it.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Okay. And I I'm I love how it came out, and um, I I thought you'd Such a good um you pulled in such a good mix of like professionalism but also that approachability to what you were saying. Um because you're right, there's kind of two extremes. And we wanted to to I guess kind of pull in the best of both of those, but then also kind of put that that uh fun piece in there because that's the feedback that we get a lot of times. And over and over, there's something about um, oh, this was a really this ended up being way less painful than I thought it was gonna be. Or like this ended up being way more fun. Um, I thought this was gonna drag on, and it was um a you know, a day that was used to um kind of bring everybody up rather than tell us about all of our weaknesses and you know, we're just terrible at what we do. And so I love hearing that feedback because that's exactly our intention going into every single workshop. And we specifically use the word overuse strengths versus weaknesses because it's just you got just dialed it up too high, you know, that direct communication, you uh the whether it's the enthusiasm or direct communication, you've dialed up too much and just overuse it a little bit. So I thought you did a great job of hearing the feedback. There were multiple times where I was talking to other people and I said, I this is why I told them I have no idea how they got the like how they were able to like pull out this nonsense of feedback that I gave them, but they did, and I I love it. Look, like, look at what we've done here. So um I love the the bright colors, how we kind of ended up on that shaping work shape or workplace relationships. Um, I thought that was so creative. And so I love that we kind of kept the the overall like fun, approachable, warm vibe, but then just added in that professional touch, a little bit more of like some brand and messaging clarity to get to where we are now. And so I'm I'm really excited to start sharing it and using it more.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

Great. And and we love to hear that, um you know, more so than than any awards, you know, client feedback and testimonials and like you know, really liking the the end brand and really thinking that it'll help elevate your business is is what we're striving for. Um, so it it's good to to hear that feedback. And at the end, we always we want the clients to feel like they're part of the process. We want them to get to the end and think that I had a hand in this, this represents my business, this is where I wanted to go, rather than sort of being uh looking through a window and being like, I don't, I don't know, they're doing things, and I guess they're gonna give me something at the end. Like, that's not our style. Our style is very collaborative, and we want you to feel part of the process so that at the end um you end up with the thing that you wanted that you think will be best for your business. There's nothing that we can do to become an expert in your business as much as you are, and that's how it is for all of our clients. So we need to work collaboratively to get the best result at the end.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

I am to that. Yes, I definitely felt like it was collaborative. And you're right, there are some projects um where it's just like, okay, I guess we'll see you in six months, see where we're at. Um, and it definitely wasn't like that. So um I I uh it's it's been a wonderful experience. And we're gonna let um listeners who maybe they're you know, you know, need to hire some consulting or maybe they're running their own business can find out more about you. I'm gonna kind of put you on the spot with this one. This um, and so it's okay if you don't have an immediate answer. Um, but one of the questions a lot of times um I'll work with marketing groups or sales groups or kind of um like some of the front line who's more client-facing. And they'll always say, gosh, how could I use this with my clients even if I even if they haven't taken the Enneagram assessment? So I'll I can add on some things, but do you have from just kind of your real world experience uh with our project, do you is there anything advice or additional insights that you would share? Um, and maybe it's just even knowing your own style to other kind of customer-facing um employees who are like, how could I use this in real life with clients?

SPEAKER_02 48:40

I think for me, um, because I am so client-facing, that the Enneagram has helped me twofold. One in terms of the introspection and knowing how what my tendencies are and how I can come off, and um in terms of like the perfection and the rigidity, um, to loosen up a bit and um appreciate that there are all of these other types that have their own lens that they're looking at the world through, I think is really helpful and to understand that it's not just my way or the highway. It's my way in, it's my way in my own head. And I can uh, you know, kind of open that up and soften that, but also to understand that every person that I'm interacting with, every business owner, um, every vendor, um I don't know coming in what their type is, what their number is, what their um main motivations are. So just being sensitive to that and aware of um just being aware of the different motivations and the different lens that everybody else is viewing the world through, I think um is really helpful through through the knowledge of the Enneagram.

SPEAKER_04 49:57

Yeah, and I I would add on that you don't know initially, you don't know the types of people that you're meeting, but you know yourself. So you can use the Enneagram to know these are my strengths, these are my weaknesses, these are things that I need to work on. For me, it's like you know, be more outwardly warm to people. Um but as you as you learn and you interact with people, then you can start to think, okay, you know, what are their motivations? And for me, it's probably a type five thing. Like, I'd I'll just come out and ask, like, what's your you know, what's your goal, what's your goal for this rebrand? What's your goal for this new website? And um I think just being inquisitive and asking those questions can get you down the road and be like, okay, maybe their goal isn't, you know, higher revenue. Maybe their goal is is to retain more employees. You know, you can have lots of different goals. Don't infer those goals, you know, just just ask your client. You can ask it in your own way, depending on what your type is. Um, ask them because they know you know you, they know them, and you sort of have to matchmake and meet in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

And one thing I would add to that, Matt, in terms of um kind of knowing yourself, um, for me, I know that it is not always the most helpful thing to point out the mistakes. People don't always warm to that right away and say, thank you for pointing out my typo. Um, so for me introspectively to kind of muzzle that a little bit and be open to what the other person is saying or doing or trying to communicate without, you know, immediately trying to be helpful and and point out um things that are um could be could be correct.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

Yeah, we we have a joke where Ariana's will say, like, you know, should I should I mention this or should I point that out? Like, did they ask for your feedback?

SPEAKER_02 52:00

No, then they probably don't want it.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

You know, that's a good tip, practical tip for ones and some of the rest of us. So that's a good life life lesson there. Oh, that's hilarious. Well, sometimes when I ask for feedback after a presentation, I will get uh a disclaimer sometimes from a type one. I know I'm a type one, and I just hate saying this, but you had a typo on page six or slide six, or like I hate to be the stereotype. So I'm like, well, yeah, you know, it is helpful. Um, that to your point, it's just kind of dialing it in, like all like all of our strengths. So, well, I appreciate you both being here, giving up your uh some time to to share your experience, to to talk a little bit about the Enneagram for anybody else who might be looking for either kind of they're ready to launch their own business or they're looking for a glow up themselves. Where's the best place to learn more about Ink and Craft?

SPEAKER_02 53:02

Um, yeah, you can find um all information about us and case studies and how to contact us. Um, our website is probably the best place um to find that out. It's incandcraft.com.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Okay. And then um for those of you on social media, LinkedIn, uh, or Instagram specifically, I know that you also did a really fun pizza project that I think is the latest project.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

Yeah, so you can uh we we post uh pictures of our work all the time on our Instagram, which is Inc. NCraft um on Instagram. And we just launched a pizza brand, uh uh a pizza shop that's going to open up here soon. It's supposed to be in November, so pretty soon. Um and they're getting ready and they're excited about it. So yeah, we we love to help small businesses. That's one of the areas uh that we think we can make a really big impact because small businesses are ready to are ready to get out there and ready to move, and you can you can make a ton of change in a small business with just uh a little bit of focus and uh some strategy and some some blow up visuals.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Yeah, you know, you don't have all the red tape uh that I know sometimes can exist. The the bigger you get, the the more of that you'll have. So um, and then hopefully uh the any agreement MBA will be up there soon. So definitely find find them. Uh and if and if you relate it to anything that either one of them said about the type five or the type one, I know that guests love it when you share a funny, you know, a funny line or that they said or something you can relate to. So definitely get in touch with them, let them know. Um, and then obviously if you're looking for some some branded strategy. So, Ariana, Matt, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for all the work that you have done. Um, and may and maybe more to come here with Enneagram MBA. So I appreciate it. And uh we'll see you over on Instagram, I guess. This was fun.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Thank you for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Research shows that strong workplace relationships can boost a team performance by 25%. Here at Enneagram MBA, that's exactly what we specialize in: helping to shape workplace connections that inspire trust, collaboration, and growth. Our unique one-two-three approach is designed to help your team connect and communicate not just with each other, but also across the whole organization. You can find out more about our Enneagram Essential workshops and our Beyond the Basics leadership series over at Enneagramba.com.