SPEAKER_01 0:03

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. All right, well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. Today is fun. We don't have a lot of guests as much as we as we used to. And so today is a special episode because we are joined by Brenda Brown, who is a leadership coach and actually does some leadership coaching here at Enneagram MBA for us. She is certified in the Enneagram, has studied the Enneagram for a long time. We'll let her add anything else to that. But today she is also bringing her Enneagram Type 4 experience to the conversation as we talk about how a type 4 might get off track at work, our type 4 derailers in this series. And um, Brenda, I'll just bring you in. Welcome. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Oh my gosh, it's always a pleasure to be with you, Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Well, Brenda and I uh we just got back from seeing one another out in Washington, DC, um, at the Association for Talent Development. And so we're gonna be doing a recap of some key takeaways in a future episode. So you'll have to come back and listen to that. But today we are really we're continuing on in the series and uh we're jumping into our type four derailers, and we're gonna have Brenda here to kind of gut check us, question, question some of this, and then uh add some real life experience uh examples potentially to this episode. Um so as a reminder, um, our type fours are striving to feel unique, and uh they tend to uh want to be one of a kind when they are walking into um a room, they might focus on the ambiance, the vibe. Um, they're interested in expressing themselves, wanting to feel understood. Um, they are known for being creative, but I I always like to be careful here because any type can be creative. Just because you're a type four doesn't mean you you hold uh all their creativity, but but they can be really creative. Um, they're usually really in touch with their how they're feeling. They tend to be really self-aware, introspective. Um, and they, you know, we all have our, we've talked about type threes uh like to be seen as successful. Type fours tend to like to be seen and appreciated for their authentic selves, their their uniqueness. Uh Brenda, I'm gonna kick it over to you. Is there anything that you would add or any piece of that that really resonated with you as you were going through your type four journey, typing journey?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I they can't see me, but I'm just smiling. You know, I can I'm glad I can laugh at myself at this point. Um, but what came up for me is a is a little story that I would love to share if it's okay, because I think this would probably give us a place to really anchor. Um, when I was in my very first job after college, I don't know, it was, I guess I had been there a few months, but I'd built a relationship with one of the trainers. And I remember in being in a hallway and him giving me this feedback, and he said, you know, when somebody asks you how you are, and he was the nicest man, and he could he just delivered it with you can pretty much guess what I'm gonna say. There, he's like, you know, you don't need to tell them. You don't really, they don't really want to know. And I thought, oh my gosh, like that's I probably was I'm probably blind really to how much I might have shared um my emotions um in my earlier career days. I don't, I think I I remember that advice. Obviously, it it was you know it kind of struck me. So it's it it helped me to adapt.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yes, oh that is that is that is uh some some type four energy, right? Right there. Uh I I had uh I have a friend who is a newly discovered four. She had typed herself um as a six actually for a long, long time. And um on the authentic piece, she has said, oh my gosh, understanding this four-ness versus the the six that I thought that I was, this makes so much sense why I sometimes struggle with my sales messaging because it just doesn't always feel authentic. Like there's what I'm supposed to say and kind of what I should say. But she said, I don't know, it just feels so inauthentic to say the best, you know, bookkeeper or the best, you know, whatever her industry is. She's like, it's and then sales has always felt so hard because I I want to be truthful and authentic. And you know, there's some things maybe I should or shouldn't say. So I thought I didn't know if you uh had ever run into that.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Definitely. And I think what you're bringing up is there, you know, in the Enneagram world and anything with the words that we use, they can mean different things to different people. So I never really resonated with a lot of the four words, which was why I was also mistyped. And that authentic, authentic authenticity, uh, the words that rings so much more true in the meaning of things versus trying to be special or unique. And I certainly never considered myself creative. So um, yeah, that that that makes a lot of sense hearing that story. And I also thought I was a six. I was the very first kind of panel I was on, and I got thrown off. They were like, you don't worry enough about everything, you worry more about relationships and other things, but yeah, it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Okay, and then you thought that you were a two for a moment, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, for a long moment. Yes. I went through my very first, my whole first coaching program. A lot of us did miss uh typed, I mean self-mistyped. It wasn't anybody's fault, just not really seeing clearly, you know, what really this was about. And yeah, I I definitely have a lot of two in me. I'm a I'm a I was a very much a helper and a doer in my earlier days, and I think it was it was incredibly helpful to my um to making to navigating through my life. And I'm also gonna use navigating. We're gonna maybe not get to uh in sexual bias work today, but I am a navigating four, so my four may sound different than you know, a preserving four or transmitting four. So just to say that too.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, that that's helpful because I think there I have ran into so many people as we do who uh maybe started out thinking they're one type and then end up uh another. And part of that is those instinctual biases, kind of uh yeah, the undercurrent and and can cause you to look like or express that four, maybe similar to a two in this situation or whatever it might be. So um yeah, we won't get into that today. But if you are, am I a four or something else? There there may be some things to dig into there. Um, okay, so we are talking about getting off track at work, and we all have our things. And sometimes as I'm going through these lists, I'm like, oh wow, how are they? How's this type going to feel about hearing about this? I feel it when I when I was reading the sevens. Uh, but it again, it's like we all have our things, and this isn't to say that in this case, all fours do all of these. Um, and it's not to say the fours are the only ones that struggle with this. I can see something I struggle with in almost all of these derailers. So this is definitely for our type four teammates, but also it might be for um it's hopefully for all of us to kind of reflect on question to think about, oh, how might this show up for me? Or how might I be a more supportive manager or teammate knowing this about my type four teammate? So, um, all right. So are you are you ready? We'll just kind of kick it back and forth, Brenda, and you tell me uh what you would add, what we got wrong, uh, and we'll just kind of go through these. We got five, I believe. Okay, so our derailers uh to cite our source come from the awareness to action Enneagram. And the first derailer um has to do with rebelling for rebellion's sake. And this might look like the type for feeling angry or frustrated because maybe they don't feel as unique as they wanted to or had intended to, and they may act out um rebelling against authority or the status quo. It's like, oh, this proven strategy, or we've always done it this way. Um, and sometimes um I think this could also lead to maybe some of the mistyping, because I don't know that we always think about a four necessarily getting angry or or frustrated. So, how does this land for you? What resonates, what doesn't? Anything you would add to this one, Brenda?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

It's I definitely sat with that a bit because I didn't see it initially, and as I did kind of go back to it, I recognize that mine might not be so loud of a rebellion, but I definitely had been called a contrarian before more than one time. And there's a definitely a part of me that wants to kind of fight against the status quo. So that really does um kind of ring true. And yeah, ones, fours, and sevens can all have some of that frustration that comes out, and it's a flavor of anger for sure. It's a boundary or a something that we're fighting for. So um, yeah. I don't know if it's about feeling special per se, as it is in my maybe with my navigating instincts again, it's more about the the the greater good or whatever or the team, um, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah, I I have seen this or heard about this um from fours who will just say, um, and I think this could be a little bit of some seven energy too, where it's like, can we try something new? Can we can we put do it a new way? And somebody might say, well, this is just the way that we do it. We've always done it, it works, let's not try and you know, reinvent the wheel or or or whatever. Um, that's a little bit of some seven two in there, but uh that's how that's how I hear, that's what I think of whenever I see this. Um and sometimes, again, I think when it's dialed in, it could be a really powerful um strength on a team. But then maybe if it's you're wanting to kind of rebel against every status quo proven method, it could, it could be kind of a time drain.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah. I mean, if you're working in an industry or a place where you could be you're a creative force or something, I can see how that could get really out of hand or painful. But if you're working on a team, which I did from the beginning of my first career, I was on a team and that it wouldn't have worked. So I think I adjusted my external expression anyway, of my frustration, you know, and I really was looking more long-term, like what are we working towards? And let's see what we can do to get there. Um I might be being generous to my younger self. I may may not have been so uh graceful with that. I recognize that.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Oh well, uh again, we all we all have our things. Um we all have our things. Uh so the the second derailer here that our type fours may notice in themselves, um, I think this this is a little similar, is making something different just for the sake of being different. So um, and and and it's like so many of these, it's like, oh, well, of course, that makes sense that that could potentially be a struggle or an obstacle if your core strategy is striving to feel unique. Um, that is central to our type fours. Um, they may look for ways to do things differently um that can really benefit the team, but sometimes it might be just for the sake of making it different, whether it adds value or not, which sometimes can slow things down, complicate things, do more than than is needed. Um anything in that you see, you've seen yourself or or just your experience with force.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

I might start to sound like I'm repeating myself, but it again, it's like that kind of um depending on where you are, if you're working in your, I think in your 20s, especially and 30s, like in teams and when what's allowed in that kind of might have adapted how I am, how I see the you know, force. But even in the force that I've worked with, I think the word unique kind of does still cause some like really is it because I don't know. I'm I'm I'm definitely aware that I like to um kind of shake things up sometimes. And I mean, I think that line to one and two is real in this like getting like I'm can I'm inner considering a lot. That's um what I'm recognizing. So it can be really frustrating to other people and it could slow people down. Um, that energy can be really helpful too when you spot something that's wrong and you want to kind of fight for it.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, yeah. Now we've I always say this, I always bring this example up. So some of you may have heard this more than once. Um, some of you maybe this is your first time, but I would say that they say whoever they is, was uh they say that Steve Jobs was most likely a type four. And I think these first two that we've we've covered are things that I could see in him that were strengths. Now, as the visionary leader of a company, that makes sense. Um and and I also think to your point, where it's like, well, when you have to work with a team, this maybe can't be dialed up to Steve Jobs level 10 um at all times. And so you gotta, you gotta figure out the dial.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah, and as you're saying that, I'm re I'm I'm recognizing, like in my own experience for my own business, my website, I it took me forever to even put one up. And I recognized as I was landing on my type, it was because I wanted it to be special. I wanted it to really reflect authentically who I was, what I was offering. So it took a long time, and it's still it's one page, and I've been, you know, working with somebody recently to to build it out. But um, yeah, that struggle's real. So when you said it like that for sure, that reminds me that yeah, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah, this there, this there. Okay, uh the third one, the third derailer is insistence on being right. They can get defensive about their position, their their vision on something, they can get frustrated or angry, which we've talked about towards others' opinions, or ways of doing things. So before I jump in on this one, what what comes up for you, Brenda? Do you see this?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I I have my book in front of me and I wrote a note, you know, maybe question mark. I mean, trying to like feel into that one through the through different lenses of different places I've I've worked and different relationships I've had. Um, I just don't think that would last in the organizations I've worked in for sure. Um and I can certainly argue. I can hold my position. So um, but I do not I don't tend to be negative. Like that is a my if it doesn't, I don't tend to show, I'll say that. I don't show my negativity. I certainly have negativity. I have a negativity bias for sure. So um I think maybe that's a learned maybe more learned skill, but either way, um I think I I have for sure worked with fours and I it's it's a it is something that that fours would struggle with. So I'm trying, I want to make sure that's clear that it may not be my struggle, at least today, but it is certainly something to be aware of. And it is not specifically just for the type four. Um, we all have our inner critics and our ways that we defend.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

So yes, well, and this is interesting with the one, because I think you know, this is their reputation for that they always need to be right, and that you know, the one and the four are connected, so there's there's some things in there. Um, I also um as a seven can relate to some of this and not necessarily being right, but having something go the way that I had envisioned it. Um can it can, I can get, I you know, I can get really frustrated or mad that it wasn't as good or you know, beautiful or fun or whatever the thing was um that I had originally that I had originally planned. So again, that the one, four, and seven, we don't talk a lot about with the awareness to action approach, but there is enneagram theory out there that this is um a grouping that can struggle with uh frustration and anger. So this makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

And that word insistence on being right. Um you know, I think for me, it's I I look at that as I have a persistence, like I'm I'm um, I'm patient and I will keep, you know, my in my aim, you know, I will I will keep working and find a different way to do it, or try to to you know, reach the goal, do the thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

So that's probably part of that.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Okay. Okay. Um let's look at derailleur four. So derailleur four is listed as drama. So it's that they say that fours can display excessive emotion at times, but sometimes making problems out to be greater than they really are. What are your what are your thoughts and feelings on that, Brenda?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

For sure, I would say of the clients, and well, I'll put my stuff out there first. I 100% have drama in my that's part of my my temperament and what I work with as far as my um my own maturity and whatnot and my my nervous system because it's just reactionary stuff. So, but I would say at this point, um, you know, I'm I've been working with this for a while, I would say it's more inner drama, but it's real. I mean, it's it's there. I can spend a lot of time finding myself in some kind of you know considering of something. So it may not be public or out there, but but for sure. And um, the good news is if you are able to see it and you can work with somebody to kind of like, you know, there's ways to to help yourself settle and and accept and allow these things to be there, and you don't you don't have to fight so much, there isn't so much drama. So I've just learned how to do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Yeah. And I think you're making some great points about it's, you know, depending on the role, the environment that you're in, how much professional development, personal growth work that you've done, you may or may not struggle with these or as intensely as maybe somebody else. Um, the other thing that I was gonna say here is this is the one where I I think I'll have to have to see what five is, but uh this is the one so far that I see cause the most friction or potential friction in the workplace because a four may be experiencing just, hey, I'm telling you about my day, or you asked me how I was, I'm telling you how I was, or just hey, I'm providing some context here. Where on the receiving end, it might feel like emotionally overwhelming, um, especially to some specific types. I'm thinking of like a five, maybe, or a three, might think, oh gosh, we don't have time, we don't have the time to get into this. Um, and so, you know, drama or just kind of that emotional intensity, which again can be such a gift because it's like, okay, good, thank God. I don't have to, you know, try and figure out what this person really wants or needs or how they're really feeling. Um, and then on the other end, at times it may feel experiencing it emotionally overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Um could I add, Sarah, one thing too with the with this drama, like with that, with that kind of inner world that the four is really familiar with, there is that's where it connects a lot in my experience. And people have um thought I might be a seven because of the way that I can like envision things. Um, so that that's the one of the gifts of it, you know, when it's when it's kind of channeled and given, you know, a structure like that. But when it's left alone, it's you know, as a unchecked, it could be really problematic.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, with your yeah, tapping into some of that that self-control, rational, logical mind with the one using that to to bring those creative ideas to life. Yeah. Okay, and then the last one, this I I forgot about this one. So this is around. comparison. Um and I I don't think that fours hold the the are the only one that hold this as a derailler but this the the description for this one for our fours is that they sometimes can struggle with not feeling appreciated and seen for their special qualities especially when others are you know quote unquote getting all the credit or at least appear they appear to be getting all the credit or lucky breaks um this can lead to a feeling that something is inherently wrong with them I know that um there is talk about how the type one is known for their inner critic but they might think well if I just put my head down and work harder I can fix it where sometimes they'll talk about the four also struggling with a pretty intense inner critic but sometimes our fours may just think I'm just inherently you know not good enough like no matter what I do I'll just kind of always you know I won't ever measure up um which is really tragic so so sad and tragic um what would you add to this one Brenda you summed it up really well I mean I think the the life of being you know having the the inner doubt you know that everyone has is one thing and then just the all the inward kind of gazing that we do um that natural proclivity to do that um and then that awareness to be comparing yourself to others and having an inner jealousy um so all of that when you're you know you're downplaying what you're doing and then again like when I was thinking I was a two I thought I was a really healthy two and I was actually like not a two and I was a an average maybe level four and maybe unhealthy in certain aspects because I didn't even wasn't even aware of some of the gifts that I had that I had really pushed away that I had just disowned.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

So there was a lot of work to do and kind of seeing all that um so that's a really important piece.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

I don't you know nobody wants to really be called out for being to holding on to resentment um but it's it's probably there for all of us to work on but I do think fours have you know we may hold on to some of the feelings of things that's a yeah that's a fact so somebody um who who was talking about I was talking about um somebody who had previously for years and years thought that they were a six and then recently like holy cow over the course of a year they were like I'm a four dang it um she was saying she said one of the things that had always resonated with her with the six was the um kind of the anxiety and the self-doubt and the questioning that sixes can struggle with and then she said something and maybe you can help me um say this better because I'm not saying it how she's I'm just gonna be able to share the general idea but she said something like but when I think about the four it's it's not so much the like situational worry or anxiety or overthinking it's it's really about like what's going on inside me like did I did I compare I mean kind of this idea of like comparison how do I measure up um and so she said some of those qualities were just more about her herself that happened in her head most of the time which I I know is kind of true for sixes in certain situations but anything you can add to that or or kind of does is that is that making sense what I'm trying to say I think um in my experience too with I my best friend is a six and she's openly shares in what she struggles with.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

So we've and we've been friends for 25 years or so. So we're um I can see how I'm a comfort to her in a lot of ways because I am I can be with her when she's afraid and I and she can see how she's a comfort to me because she's so logical and thoughtful about all the things and she gets she's so bright and she can she sees how I'm I I'm a feeler and I am you know and I'm a I'm a you know we're all thinkers we're all feelers whatever but I'm a deep feeler I go for the feelings like I'm you know so we are very different but we do have I've learned from her she's a big napper I've learned to be a napper you know helping you know nourish my body more um you know it's been a great friendship and I I doubt I don't doubt we'll be friends forever um it's just been a we've been learning and growing together and so yeah I think it it they're they're very similar in a lot of ways and you could really be and it's fine if you find yourself not sure just keep exploring them and eventually it'll become clear.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah and it's it usually is the type that makes you want to go dang it yeah be this oh okay so these are these are just some of the ways that our type fours can get off track. Again I think regardless of your type you may resonate with a with one or more of these that you have struggled with or maybe currently struggling with yourself. Let's talk a little bit about getting back on track and um I'd be curious uh how maybe you've if you've used this these ideas Brenda and and how they've worked or anything else you would you would suggest so one of the ways to get back on track is collaborating with others and letting ordinary people influence you. And I think if I'm a four though my initial thought is like why would I ever do that? But what what maybe is a way to kind of change the narrative and and what do you think this what does this mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah I think for me as a coach like it's really important to meet people where they are and that it usually is a pain point.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

So we go with where the pain is and that's that's where so if it is a um a person it could be it could just be as simple as for a four or anyone to be mindful about their morning coffee you know to just kind of slow down and get clear you know what are what what is your aim today like what are you looking to accomplish how do you want to feel at the end of the day like whatever you you know so yeah I just I think that that is a a certainly a practice to to consider yeah and I think that it may help too in thinking that you could do more visionary things or put put more creativity into a few things that really mean a lot to you if you're not trying to make something one of a kind unique every everything you put out every email you write every project you work on.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Right yeah the pain is like you procrastinate or the pain is you're you can't quite function because this person at work's causing you you know this grief um and it's just taking you out of your ability to perform your job like whatever that is like you know we start there but slowing down to look at that is is usually the key step the awareness yeah just so but it can't be just awareness to be able to make a difference so yeah yeah um but that's where it starts get just kind of reflecting and becoming aware okay what what do you think about this one the other um getting back on track tip is not to linger too long on the past or the pain or the ideal fantasy many times the best thing to do is just get up and keep moving oh yeah 100% I think that's what's gotten me where I am right now I think I was fortunate to have people around me that were had that kind of energy and ability and it it it helped me be more like that when I was younger and it served me in my life. I I love my seven partnerships and friendships and um and in my client work like you know when anyone can kind of access that kind of energy to bring into their friendship like that's supportive like it's not you're not like bypassing the pain that's here too but like to get through the day to get through your whatever you need to do like yes we can't just sit in that stuff. And I I don't I've what I've done for myself is to invite people to be real with me if I if they notice it in me in some way. So and I I encourage my clients to do the same with the people they trust.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

So yeah yes with with people that you trust but that you have given the invitation to because but I'll also hear the flip side of this where fours are like please never tell me to get over something right before I'm ready to get over it. So we gotta we gotta be careful in our being a supportive teammate here with this one. Yeah. All right when intense and negative emotions overtake you um there is a moment maybe where you could stop and just pause and ask what could I do to control these? So I know I think we all can have some really intense emotions and you know in the heat of a moment it is hard to control. But what what sort of things do you personally do or what sort of um exercises or things do you recommend to your type four clients in these situations?

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Well this is one of the reasons I think when you and I are so aligned with the awareness to action approach because of the the what we learned with um then built on what I already knew about the brain and the mind and how you know just how much bias we have and clear thinking things like that that I had very limited knowledge and then I I still have limited knowledge but I know enough now to not trust my thoughts and myself and my memory and all these things that give us an ability to have some laughter too in our days. Like that's a big part of it. But so I've I I came from a family of people who would my dad always made silly jokes and tried to help us laugh and through the hard times. So I bring that as much as I can into my spaces and encourage people to do the same without laughing at anyone but to bring some lightness. But I but the the quickest path is beyond awareness is in the body and if you can practice just becoming more aware of something that you can you know your fingertips something that can kind of help you um remind you that your this body's running the show most of the time and just to connect with that and it will take you quickly out of your thoughts if you can do that before it gets you know takes off and then all of a sudden your nervous system's totally running the show. But if you that's the key to kind of checking in with yourself. Whenever I knowing myself as a four and my ability to kind of be like feeling and being maybe stuck in my inner world I am always checking in with my to make sure I'm here um if I'm not if when I'm in a coaching engagement it's that's that's different. Like we're very intentional it's you know there's less distractions etc but when I'm just in a conversation out in the wild or whatever um and I just encourage people to start that practice to be able to notice you know where they are or do you even know where you are like have you have you have you heard what the person said if you catch yourself lost and that's not just a four thing um but it is uh important for practice to be able to be connected to to the ground in some way to feel your feet or to touch your fingers or something. That's just one one way.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Oh that's a great one that's a great one. This one the last one is maybe a little bit tied to that one but also I can see seven struggling again all of us probably but definitely sevens and this one is a reminder to recognize all that you do have. So many times it's easy to focus on what's missing um what could be better but be intentional about seeing what's present.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Yeah how I I think you're good at this I was gonna say do you think you're good at this but I do think you're good at this so uh anything anything you would add to how to how to practice this more yeah I mean um we talked a little bit about this maybe the other day there's I have just in my life have had the great pleasure privilege of having people who were able to give me um some guidance on a you know on a path so I learned kind of how to surrender you know as I what I couldn't control you know it's like surrender repair like surrender what you can't control you know and what is mine to do so you know that's really what I'm always trying to do is to kind of like let it let go whatever I don't I can't control and to you know really be here to to do what I need to do.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Uh as we conclude our derailler for the type four episode um is there anything I wanted to ask is there anything that you would want to say to your fellow fours who might be listening and then is there anything andor anything you would want to say to the rest of us to maybe anything we misunderstand about a four that we could do to work better with a four at work um any any messages for either one of those groups or both the most important advice that I was ever given is to know that um everything that is here for us can be you know something we're going through or we're growing through and um just to recognize if you are questioning whether you're four or whatever there's a way to get clear on that because the sooner you kind of are clearer you can kind of own the things um at least in my experience that's what's happened for me and with the people I'm working with um but I do I what I would encourage everyone to do if if you are considering you're a four and you're questioning things or even this lot of sixes too like recognize that's if that's in your nature that can be a gift and that can also keep you from the work. So just to just have humility you know to really have humility and to make it fun and you know enjoy the journey like that's that's really it I know that's not for specific but as a for and one who don't I do care deeply about this world this planet the people and all the things like um you know but I am grateful that you know seek help like there's always help like that's the thing we can't do it by ourselves like if you can give up the if you can at least reach out to somebody to kind of get the the support to you know be be moving in a direction of of less suffering that would be that would be the first thing I would say to do. Yes less suffer less yeah well um I appreciate you kind of bringing the some real world experience uh both with your personal experience and and that of your coaching clients so um if any fellow fours or anybody who has a question about a four wants to reach out and connect with you where would be the best place um well you can look uh I think um my information is on your website but also I'm on LinkedIn or my website is um wisdomloves.com W-I-S-D-O-M-L-O-V-E-S dot com or you can google Brenda Brown Enigram coaching something like that you'll find me it's um it's it's out there one thing I did not mention though that is I think important I think I alluded to it but in the workplace especially I think fours don't always look like fours so that's why I think it's important and I'm so grateful we had this conversation because a lot of um my mistyping was because of the ways that I had worked in organizations over the years and had to work and maybe even in my family system whatever but I was really tooing um you wouldn't see you wouldn't you weren't seeing the fouring but the twoing was right there. And I also thought I had a very strong one you know a lot of one in me. But as we know this this four thing is real. So but thank you for the opportunity to really just be here and share that and I hope some people will find you know their path as a four and not be so um as scared of it as I was like I don't that's the last thing I want to be so that's I mean that's how it is.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Well and I would say the least common types that I see in the workplace are fives, sevens and fours. And it you know it it makes sense. I have a slide a funny meme for the four that talks about like they need their work to be deeply meaningful for it to be something sustainable for them. And the little meme says I wasn't built for desk work and I you know I I think that as we are you know maybe working next to or managing a four or even if you are a four just to know that about yourself. And that's okay because there are lots of ways jobs out there that you know you aren't like sitting at a computer every day putting in the same numbers in a spreadsheet. For some people that feels really reliable and and safe and I like to know what to expect but for a four unless it's tied to something deeply meaningful that that's going to be hard work to do. And so I um and and you know some of the jobs just in the the the culture of the workday um it makes sense maybe why there aren't as many fours but also to your point maybe also part of that is because they're not seeing that four piece because they're right having to kind of mold to a certain role or culture at work.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah. I think we're very flexible. I think fours can show up in a lot of ways that um at least in my experience um I've been surprised as some of the people I worked with that ended up identifying with four. And maybe I'm biased because I am you know a four for sure but yeah yeah but nobody wants to be a four so I don't know maybe well some people do I guess but it's you know it was it was really kind of a eeks for me.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

So well and you're well just know force that we are gonna we are gonna continue to to work on understanding you asking questions not assuming we understand you. And uh I appreciate you sharing your experience definitely reach out and and Brenda does um help us with our individual coaching leadership coaching I think maybe some typing coaching here in the future so um you'll you'll get to maybe meet her um face to face um at some point down the road so with that Brenda thank you for being here and uh we'll see you in the next derailer. Thanks Sarah