SPEAKER_01 0:03

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. We have our special guest, Brenda Brown, certified Enneagram coach, leadership coach, and one of the coaches on our Enneagram MBA staff as well. Back. You might have heard her in a previous episode or a future episode. We're not sure what order we're going to share these at per the type 7, I don't know, stereotype. That you have heard her or you will hear her again in our type four derailleur series. But today in this episode, you're going to hear her and I share some key takeaways, insights from the Association of Talent Development conference that we were both just at representing any agram and BA. And that was out in Washington, DC. It was several days of kind of learning theory, training, team building, coaching, development, different tools, strategies for how to accomplish that professional growth, team building in the workplace. And so we're going to share. I have some thoughts. Brenda has some thoughts. She might have some questions for me. So I might be in the hot seat in a minute. So we'll do that. But before we hit record, Brenda, you were saying that what you were really inspired by.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Sure. I mean, I was first of all, I was a member of what was then called ASTD, not the best name, um association or American Society of Training Development. Now it's ATD for talent development. But but walking in there and and seeing all of these, you know, companies and that huge expo, I mean, that was just massive. I mean, so but it was inspiring because this is all about learning and growth. And, you know, just to be in that space where people, you know, this is what we're all doing, we're all here to to learn and grow. Um, but yeah, I I think really it was exciting to be part of Enneagram MBA and knowing that, and just part of the Enneagram world, because people were literally coming up to our booth and saying, Oh my gosh, I love the Enneagram. I mean, how many times did we hear that? Yeah, and that wasn't happening anywhere else. Like, you know, I was looking, I was walking around, I was kind of like, I watched the MBTI booth for a while. Nobody like I nobody's running off going, I love MBTI. Um, maybe they did, I don't know, not to be judgmental about that, but um, but we did have a lot of people that came by and said, you know, and I I wanted to understand, and you did too, like, well, what how do you you what are you using now, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So um, I don't want to steal the the mic from you, but I I really was hoping to ask you, that's why you know I reached out to you too about this to kind of get your wisdom because you you were there a day longer than I was too. Um, and also just because, you know, you're a brilliant human. So I was curious what was one of the unexpected insights that you had from the event.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yeah, you know, um it was a huge conference. I mean, attendance-wise, I don't I don't even know what to guess, thousands. And then as far as exhibiting the companies that were were down that way, hundreds, I I wish I had a number. That would that may be something I put in the show notes. Um, but it it was, and I think that that um was inspiring just because of kind of the the times that that we are in to still see so many people who are being sent on behalf of their company, being in, you know, having the investment to travel to DC, to get the hotel, to pay for the conference fee, um, who are in learning and development, which might be seen as an expense, but those companies, those people who are representing their companies, maybe see it as an expense, but also obviously some sort of investment too, to be able to have that. So I I thought that was encouraging, just how many people were there and that um learning development training um still very much an important part, um, at least for at least for now. Um and we went an ERM and BA went just to, you know, it's so easy to get caught up in your own little world. And in our Enneagram world, there's all kinds of interesting people to talk with, new theories coming out, leaning in, diving in deeper. And so this was an opportunity to just add in a different someone else's world for a little bit, or or just a different, uh, different world. So that was good in in general, just to kind of see what was what was going on. Um, and it was so cool, Brenda, to have so many people be like, I love the Enneagram, this changed my life. I mean, I heard people say, so many people say the Enneagram has changed their life, changed their marriage, changed their relationships at work. Um, and that was really cool. I I think the conversation that um we had had with people, and if I'd be curious what yours conversations were, um, was that a lot of companies use MBTI. A lot, a lot of companies have used, are using disk, a lot of companies using Strength Finder, Hogan, uh, predictive index, insights. Um, and we kind of went there saying, well, we're not trying to take the place of any of that. This is just a compliment, and it can be such a compliment to disk, to MBTI. And we've done a series, I think it's been two years ago now on the podcast where we invited coaches, certified certified practitioners from these other modalities to come and talk about um how they could use it with the Enneagram. Um, but it it's not meant to take the place of any of those, but it can be a really exciting tool for the for the group to use and one that people really remember. To your point, many people said, Well, we use the MBTI, for example, and there's so much, I know, good that comes from it, so much interesting insight, helpful insight. Um, but many people would say, I struggle to remember my four letters, and I definitely don't remember those of my teammates. Whereas the Enneagram, you we can do so. It's just a little, I don't know, sticky, uh, memorable. I don't know how you would word that.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Exactly. And I'm remembering a couple of people that I think we were both getting to hear their story of they when we were talking at first about like that they had used MBTI and they couldn't remember, and they certainly didn't remember their teammates. And then when they talked about their Enneagram, one of them couldn't remember even her number. But when she looked at kind of the paragraph space, she's like, yes, and then the other person started talking, and they had this language, and it was really that happened in different ways. Many times you could see the quick um connection that was built, the the commonality so that they could, you know, just be together and see, you know, possibly build something different from there.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah, yeah. It it what uh people it's it is, it's a fun, it's a fun framework. Um, you know, it there's it it can give a lot of serious insight, but it is also an incredibly fun framework.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Um I think I want to just highlight though, just to I mean, everybody that's following you knows your branding, how beautiful and bright it is, but it really did stand out. I mean, that was one of the reasons I think it wasn't it was Ennegram and it was it was Sarah, an Ennegram MBA, just the whole package is in a sea of kind of what looked kind of you know, kind of boring. And you know, I mean it was there were some cool things, there were some virtual reality. I mean, there were definitely some things, but it was there was something about the energy with and the colors and the just the energy. It was it, I don't know. We just seemed to get we had a lot of traffic when you were looking around to see who was um who was walking around. And then there was that one, the guys at the booth, you know, just that you invited to you gave that the um little card to scan and do their paragraphs, and then he figured out his type, and then well, he said he would do it, and I didn't think he would, and he did. And then he came back and talked with us, and then then he got his partner, his one of his teammates, and brought him, and then they're talking, and that happened a lot where people so we had a little um, you know, you can't take the a full Enneagram assessment.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Typically in our workshops, we use the Enneagram Institute 144 questionnaire. Obviously, we're not doing that at the trade show, so we use the um the the blue book, the Enneagram Blue Book, Russ Hudson and uh Don Riso's two Enneagram question. We had a little postcard that we gave out. We had a uh a fun online quiz that we used, and people were taking their two Enneagram question quiz right there at the booth. And then I had many people go out and get their teammate and bring them back and say, Oh, you gotta, they gotta do this, they gotta do this, see it, see where it lands. Um, and then they were kind of laughing, and then from there, you know, you just have a really, we were talking about how you just kind of have it makes it a little easier to if something is bothering you about somebody, we want to take this seriously and we want to use it responsibly. I understand that. And also, I think with the Enneagram, it gives us a chance to be like, okay, Brenda, you could turn down the four today, or Sarah, we need that seven. Let's we're going into this meeting, turn the seven, you know, or whoa, that our types just totally clashed right here. And and so it just kind of gives you like a quick shortcut of language and then a way to say things that maybe it would be more difficult to say, but you have you kind of have an in. And then maybe it's the Enneagram, it could be anything, but I think because the Enneagram is so memorable and fun and sticky, you can use it for sometimes for some of those harder conversations. And in the moment, you know, people were laughing. It's like, oh yeah, this is how we annoy each other. Because we were also giving out sheets that once you felt like, yeah, this is my type, we had a workplace uh style sheet. And so people were able to say, Oh, yeah, this gets on my nerves really bad. And so we would say, Well, you know, give this sheet to your boss, to your coworker, and let them know, you know, how not to annoy you.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Would you share one of those stories where you were, because I know we handed out a few of those sheets or a time when um when there was like a meaningful kind of insight or something that you've you witnessed?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Gosh, let me think. Um, I think I think one of them was there was a a type five and a type seven um team teammate situation, and the type five hadn't heard about the Enneagram and they knew that they that was their type. Um, and they said, Oh, I gotta get my teammate to take this. And so they came back around. And there are some really interesting similarities and overlaps that a five and a seven will really appreciate in each other. So they had the seven, they, you know, the other person had the five sheet, and we were just kind of chit-chatting about it, and they were laughing. It's like, oh, this is why we get along so well. And then they were looking at the pet peeves section and it was like, oh yeah, you're sometimes you overdo it, you know, sometimes it's too much, you're too much, you're too strong. Come on, too strong. Uh, the five, talk about the seven. And then they were saying, Yeah, you know, I really sometimes I wish you had more, you know, oomph or or whatever the the word that they use. And and so, yeah, I'm always wanting her to, you know, get a little bit more excited about things. And so it's just, you know, you you're gonna take that. You're gonna take that and you're gonna remember that between the two of you, and then also um uh about about yourself. So it was really it was really fun to meet people who knew about the Enneagram already. They were like, oh, the Enneagram is here.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Um which is similar to when when we would do a workshop with an organization. There's always there's off usually people that know something about it or they've heard of it. Um, but this was it, it just did feel it felt special because here we are in the sea of choice, they had choices and they're coming over to talk, or if they didn't know about the Enneagram, there were some people that just happened to walk in. A couple people actually thought that we had an MBA program that we were offering, which is great. We whatever, whatever brings them in. But um, it was really, I felt like a great opportunity to get a uh kind of a taste of what is out there again and to just be kind of humbled and also really, you know, excited about that. We're not we're not here to complicate you. We are actually here to help you, and we're not, you know, that's what we see in the Enneagram, Ennealand, um, is a lot of you know, there's just a lot of ways to complicate things and make it so that people get they're already overwhelmed. We're here to help you.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

And yeah, yeah. So we're trying to keep it simple, keep it fun. You know, one of um one of my takeaways when you were talking about Enneagram and BA's look is just, well, that is that is intentional. Uh when we were working with our designer, that would that was something that came up. And um Simone Biles was one of the opening keynote speakers one of the days. And in her interview, she was talking about how she likes to chit-chat and joke and cut up. And then she's like, I can go out, I can be joking one minute, and then the next minute I can be serious and land some you know crazy triple something flip. And I can do it great. When she said she was telling the story about how she was with this one coach who was very militaristic, and they she said, no talking, no joking, no laughing during practice. And she had shared how her performance and her excitement and almost her mental health around going to practice every day was starting to plummet because that was taken away from her. And so she said, now I know that in order to perform well, I need to have fun. And um I wrote that down because I think that especially in a in a in the workplace, there is so many, there are so many things that we do need to take seriously. And this is it can be serious work. There can be meaningful, significant changes that come from it, and we can also get there by having some fun. And so I just really that underscored how important it is to make sure that, you know, as we talk about the Enneagram, we do keep it simple to your point. And we bring, we bring some fun to it. So we have, you know, that sprinkled throughout our presentations and the the visuals and that sort of thing. And so I thought, thanks, Simone, for for that reminder.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

I'm glad you brought that up, that you attended that and what you shared about it. Um, yeah, and we can go, we can go further with this work. That's what's great about it. You can, you know, come back to it and deepen it. And but you can't, you want to start, you want to meet people where they are. So, and yeah, a lot of people are just feeling like they've they're they're being pulled in so many directions. So how do we support you?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

And um, I I know I had had one conversation, maybe two, and I don't know if you had had a conversation like this, or maybe we were a part of the same conversation at one point, but somebody had shared that they had brought the Enneagram to their team, and now their leadership was very anti-Eneagram because the um that particular trainer we had we have no idea who, right? But and it doesn't matter. But the their approach was a a little bit more, or I should say a lot more serious. And in presentation one, the they had shared that the trainer was trying to talk about childhood traumas as it relates to the type. And so I think that's also something whether you're doing our DIY kit or you're you're a practitioner listening or um or just you know, a client to know, you know, we we are not doing that. You know, I'm not a I'm not I'm not trained to to bring up childhood trauma, nor is that the place for it, you know, maybe in an individual coaching session, um, but not in group session number one introduction to exactly.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

And there's ways you can prepare for even a deep do-it-yourself um workshop that can help you, you know, be more successful and be and you know, make sure the containers safe. That doesn't take that much time to to to set those those parameters. So um I just had a dog come in and visit.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Well, that's okay. We have dogs here. Uh we have they're in the house. We have delivery people that sometimes will end up on here. Um yeah, so I thought I thought that was also just kind of validating and can you know just continue to be a reminder that um the any there can be so much to share. And as the facilitator, it it can be so exciting to be like, I'm gonna bestow all this incredible ideograph insights onto you. Um, but to your point, there it there is a way to do it. Um, and it's like, well, you'll never get to that deep meaningful stuff if you're kind of if you're going, you know, too deep, too deep too soon.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, yeah, you'll end up pushing people away and and really giving them a bad taste for for this. So that's why the Enigram and BA, you know, model is so it works and people come to you and seeking you out because it's it's not light and fluffy either, but it's it's done with respect for I'm gonna say that again a little louder. So um I'm I'm really, really excited for what what it looks like, a lot of growth coming from from not only the event, but just in the in the world, in the marketplace with people and yeah, for the any, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

I I think that there is definitely a spot for it. Um, and one of the other things that I noticed at the show, I'd be curious your thoughts on this. I think we talked about it a little bit, was um how many technology companies were there. I think I I I mean, I don't know, at least half, it seemed like was like something and AI, um using AI. Um, and I I I think that a lot of people, I talked with some people who were introduced to the Enneagram through Cloverleaf, which is a online platform some of you may be aware of. And I I I think it's wonderful. Um, I know that there's a lot of benefits to keeping things, you can trigger your teammates. There's a lot of benefits to to how it is. Um and also I think that when we get done with a workshop, I don't think I know because people tell us in our in their feedback forms, one of their favorite parts about the training wasn't even about something I said or that was on a slide. It was connecting with their teammates in person. So I think that there continues to be um a void or a need, a desire to do the in person and maybe complement the super techie platforms that are out there. Um, but also even if you're keeping track of everything in some sort of software, um, some sort of learning tool, creating your own videos, that sort of thing, that people really love to connect with one another. And again, I'm biased, but I think that Enneagram just really creates a wonderful door to walk through to have some of those meaningful talks and discussions with your team.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Yeah, there's never been a more important time to invest in you know human relationships and including the ones with our own selves that you know, the ways that we stop ourselves from our highest potential. So um yeah, and you can have fun doing it too. That's the other thing. That doesn't have to be, you know, going to the dentist. And I say that with respect. I love my dentist, but um so right. Yeah. Well, um, how was your um like when you set back and look at the event as a whole from you know, if you had any kind of expectation, do you did you meet it or I would say so this is my first time ever doing anything like this.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Um and you know, would I have started out at a large show? I don't know, you know, but I did. Um, and there were um as far as what I would I expected, um, I think I just went into it without a lot of expectations because I yeah, I did, I had never known, I have I've never done anything like this before. I didn't know. Um, but what I left with was I think that there is an opportunity for the Enneagram in general to for all of us, for anybody talking about the Enneagram. I think um companies are interested in the Enneagram. How might it complement what else is doing in what what else they're using? Um and so I think I think there was like some brand awareness just for the Enneagram, which was kind of cool. Um, a lot of people were coming up and like, what is the Enneagram? What like, what is this? Or I've heard about it, but like, what is it? So there was some some cool education that we got to to do just with the Enneagram. Um, and then I think there was some um brand awareness through with Enneagram MBA and specifically, and how we how we approach it and had an opportunity to talk about kind of our workplace focus. And it was really interesting too just to see some of the the people that were coming to the booth. We had uh somebody from National Geographic um coming up. We had met some really interesting uh people from LinkedIn, there were there were other companies. Um and so it was um it was great just kind to kind of connect with them and what it what is their company doing, what have they done in the past, what works, what doesn't, and and understanding some of those um some of those experiences.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Yeah, that's a good point. Um one of the things that seemed apparent was the companies that had had brought in Enneagram training, they they saw that they could do it again because if there's been turnover and just even to reignite, you know, the energy and the and the intention.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

So yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah, and that's sometimes those are similar to the clients that we will work with, but like, oh, we did this 10 years ago and it was really great, but we have a whole new team now, or we did it five years ago, and I don't remember my own type, and I know the team, you know, half the team is new or whatever. Um, so yeah, there's definitely a chance, even if you've gone through a training, you know, to to to pick out some new things.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Well, I'm I just want to say I really respect that you you went for it and uh put yourself, put the company out there, and I'm just so excited. It was it was really a great experience.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

It was it was a you know, it was a big project. It was a big project. It was a big project. Oh yeah, it was big. There was a lot to do to get ready for it, but I think sometimes maybe this is um maybe this is a gift of a straight of a seven at times it can get me in trouble, but not realizing or thinking about how painful or hard something's going to be, just seeing the positive. Because if I had known, you know, I don't know that I would have signed up for this. But it all worked out and it was wonderful getting to see you. I did I did just want to touch on um, because I think that listeners may have experienced this themselves or maybe have had the question around probably the number one question other than what is the Enneagram was around um it being backed by science or what's the credibility. Um there was a topic um in the the sessions going on outside of the the expo. There were so many good topics. Yeah. Um the the seven in me had major FOMO. Uh I wanted there was been so many I wanted to see, but um, there was one that was around a black box of personality assessments or something, and they were talking about you know, be cautious and and that sort of thing. And the Enneagram was one that they had brought up, and we had had somebody stop by the booth and say, Well, I just want you to know this was what was being said, that it, you know, it's not backed by science, it's not, you know, you can't count on it in the workplace, that sort of thing. And we had had some other conversations around that. So uh I don't know what I I thought you did a great job of answering that question.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Right. I mean, I I actually welcome that question, especially now. I mean, and and I also I think I mentioned this to you as a coach, as a professional coach, our industry is about 30 years old, which is about as long as Enneagram has been an industry. So there is science for both of them. It's not, you know, science is is always evolving, but there is a science, there's a science of change, and that really connects to coaching. There's positive psychology, there's different ways that we work with science and evidence-based um practices and coaching. And in the Enneagram world, there's different elements that we can we can point to. And one of them that's the low-hanging fruit right now, that I'm trying to actually integrate even more, is the PDP Enneagram work that Dan Siegel, David Daniels, and others have have done, because it really connects to nine temperaments, and that had been identified in the, I guess, the 80s with at NYU with the um Thomas and Chuss study. So just to say that's a hypothesis, but anyone that's worked with Enneagram recognizes there's you know some real um work here to see and and and practice and play with to kind of and allow and and just like learn from. Like there's real, there's there's some real psychology here that's you know, it's cognitive, but it also, if you get into the more embodied practices, like there's a full system here. You can go deep. And we want to be suspicious, we want to have um discernment and not just believe everything we hear. And the Enneagram has become a little bit of wild, wild, wild west, just like coaching is very, you know, depending on who you are, what you how you coach. Um, so I would say the pointing to the work of Dan Siegel and uh and the whole group, um, but just showing that that there is this temperament thing that we're looking at, and in a world that is highly stressed right now and reactive, I'd say that's my low-hanging fruit. I would I'm working with myself and others um to just look at as clearly as we can with how are you reactive, how do you manage your emotions, and um yeah, how can I be in the world and be in relationship with others and you know, with less struggle and not harm anyone for sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah, yeah, I thought I do, I think that is a great question. And I I think that um I wish I had had something a little bit more formulated from day one. And and you know, we kind of know what to say, but to like say it and articulate it in a in a um concise, clear way. Um, I think by the end of the the third day, I had it dialed dialed in. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think the science is catching up. I think that um I think that that was a really interesting point about coaching. Um some of these others, MBTI, I don't know how long that's been around, um, but there's gonna be more research on that because it's it's been around longer. Um, I didn't realize that the disc wasn't didn't have a governing body, and also was some questionable science or you know, so and so many companies use that and uh are benefit from it, regardless of it if it is, you know, yeah, deep, deep.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Right. And I mean you gotta understand if people have been using MBTI or disk or whatever and they've invested money in it, they they they've got a bias to it. So, you know, and we're not here to say it's not. I've done, I've worked with MBTI, um, but the Enneagram, that one of the one of the gifts of it is that as you call it, it's open source, you know, it's not owned, and there's like no middleman. Like we're able to offer our training and our work with such a different, it's a it's a better um, you know, it's affordable, more affordable when you look at what you're paying for when you have to go through and the middlemans and the whatevers. And um, yeah, so that's just that's as I see it, as long as you're using it um with integrity, it's it's a gift.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah, yeah. And I I I um I think too, some of those are very much about who you are as a person, and that can be incredibly beneficial for your career development and in your workplace relationships. I also think that the Enneagram, and specifically the approach that we take is real here at Enneagram MBA, is really focused on not just who you are, but how you work together with the people on your team, um, which can just a little bit of a of a different angle than just pure personality and self-awareness.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Yeah, I I heard that in listening to you share, you know, the and kind of giving your, you know, meeting people where they were with MD Graham and BA. I heard that focus on the relationships and how, you know, it's just like that is the gift of the way that your programs are set up and um and truly relationships are the heart of the matter. Um, you know, we're not gonna get through this world alone. So let's let's let's look at what's here and let's work together. Yeah, yeah. That's why I'm glad I'm here with you. So thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Well, uh you battled traffic. I think there were a couple of moments where you battled traffic from Annapolis to come to come down, fine parking around the convention center in DC, which if anybody knows what that's like, it's you know, it's a it's a walk, you know, it is it is a it's a walk just even once you get in the building. It is a walk. It's a hike. Um, so I appreciate you. It was fun. Uh I I don't even think I said that. I meant to say this in the first episode, or not maybe now this this will be the first one, uh, that we did that we met in person a year ago. Now it was just about a year, right? Just over a year in Nashville at the awareness to action train the trainer. Um and so we've just kind of kept in touch and here and there. And so it was really fun to see you again in person.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, yes. I'm looking forward to working together continuously. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yes, absolutely. I I kind of said, you know, I'm I'm embracing my strengths as kind of the the group person, and I am looking to surround myself with people who enjoy groups, but also maybe more comfortable, more qualified, maybe more um equipped to go deeper on a on a one-on-one level. So I appreciate and I'm excited to do more um with that because I do think that the workshops are wonderful for relationship building and like we were talking about before we recorded, how powerful coaching can be for change and how organizations uh are really embracing and welcoming coaching programs because of because of the the change and the um the actual results that they can get. So looking forward to to working with people like you who can help.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah. And I'm, you know, my whole like one of my aims is to help create um like peer coaching circles within organizations. Like there is a way that we can support one another. You don't have to be a professional coach to be to learn some of the coaching skills that you can apply in on team in within teams and groups and stuff. So that's I'm really excited to have um because I've been kind of in my little one-on-one coaching space primarily. I've had some groups, but it's been more one-on-one. So now I'm, you know, this has given me a chance to do more of that.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

So thank you. Yeah. Um, anything else that you wanted to say that we haven't talked about about the event? I don't know. I'm trying to think if I have any final thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

It it just was um inspiring, you know, especially in DC right now, because there's so much um lot of people have lost their jobs, and there's it's been a difficult market all over town. And that with that infusion of, you know, there's still, you know, the world is still spinning. We've got we've got work to do, and there are jobs out there, there are companies that are doing good things, and yeah, it was exciting to be to be able to get get in there. Um yeah, I think that that the the ripple will maybe for any gram and ba make it you may not get the immediate um interest right now, but I think you taught you were able to touch, we were able to touch a lot of people, so yeah, celebrating.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna celebrate Sarah's courage. Yeah, we have people stop by who are uh looking for something new to compliment their training um this summer or planning for 2026. And again, it wasn't like we need to replace disc. It was we're we're looking for something different, we're looking for something new, or we've our staff has been asking about the Enneagram. What is the Enneagram? So it is, I think there's a lot of opportunity, there's a lot of excitement um with the Enneagram. Definitely we're feeling it here at Enneagram NBA. Um, so uh well we'll we'll yeah, we'll kind of continue to to keep our um finger on the pulse with the the talent and development industry and uh as well as the growing science around the Enneagram and credibility as that grows. But uh thanks for doing this episode with me and thanks for making the the trip, the hike out to DC.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Thank you. And wishing you all the best for a great weekend, depending on when this comes out, it's Memorial Weekend.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

So oh, that's right, yes, yeah. I I think we'll I just decided I think we're we'll share this one uh over the long weekend. So all right, yeah, happy, happy long weekend if you're happy to be listening to this. All right, thanks, Brenda. Take care, bye. All right.