SPEAKER_01 0:03

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. Today we are going to take a look at, I guess, kind of the state of the Enneagram, what's going on in the Enneagram community, and to help us understand what's going on, where I'm going to bring in one of our uh Hera Enneagram MBA facilitators and who owns his own leadership team development company. Um, uh Demetrius Parker, you have heard from him before. I think this is maybe your second time, maybe third, or maybe it just feels blanket. Okay. Um on the show. So so welcome back.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

And uh we have actually been talking about doing some future episodes together. Um, so that'll be fun. Stay tuned. Stay tuned for that. But today I wanted to bring him on because Dee was just out in Minnesota um at the International Enneagram Association annual conference. I think it's annual. Um, and uh he is going, I I have some questions for him that I wanted to um get answered for myself and for our listeners. And so thank you for being here, Dee.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah, no, no, no. And just really quickly, uh, two things. One, um, I think they actually do their conference every other year.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Okay, as I was saying that, I was like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Because what they try to do is give um, they want to have the international conference every other year, and then that um off year, they want to give the chapters an opportunity to do a conference if they want and not compete with each other. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Okay. Well, and I wanted to, I wanted to do this just to just to kind of see well, what what is going on beyond just you know what Sarah does or what we do at Enneagram MBA, but ever what's everybody else talking about? And then I know that we have several people um who listen. Um some of them will come up to me after a workshop and say, hey, I I want to do more, I want to get more involved in the Enneagram community, either potentially switching careers or just maybe as a fun hobby. So I I think that this will be really interesting and beneficial um for our listeners. So um one thing that I thought was interesting that you had said, and this was your first time going. So we're getting kind of very fresh perspective. Um, and um you had said that they had kind of positioned it more as an experience than a conference, which I love because when we talk about our workshops, that's kind of how we position them too. So, what how what kind of um why do you think they framed it that way? And how did that kind of make it different than just saying it was a conference?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Yeah. So first of all, I would say probably when you think about doing conferences, and and I've had to put conf help to put conferences together before, you know, it, you know, themes, you think about themes. And so for me, that means they came in with an intentionality to make it more than just a conference, right? To make you know the the experience feel so much more. And I think it was um from the very beginning, you know, like they had you know, they had poetry there, which is not something that you typically see at a conference, and unless it's a poetry conference, and so they had, you know, they had uh, I think it's a Joe Davis that was there and sharing his his poetry, and not only that, but then you know, they had live music and they had yoga and it had um you know an after-hours session on the Enneagram, um, of how to you know look at the Enneagram from an intimate uh perspective. Um Ruth Hudson, who is you know the one of the founders of IEA, he DJed the Gala.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

He DJ'd the gala you know dance party. And it was a party. Like it was you know, a bunch of different folks from all over the spectrum in this space having a great time. So it was a literally I can say it was an experience. Um and especially for someone who, you know, with my energy level, I'm that's what I'm looking for. And so I would say from that perspective, it it it met and probably even went a bit above our expectations of what I thought an Enneagram conference was going to be.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Ah well, and and you know what um what's so fun about that is that that's how I see the Enneagram being, you know, the way that the way that we use it at Enneagram MBA is obviously a very specific use of it in the workplace. But I know so many practitioners who use it for yoga retreats. Or I know um oh sleeping at last. They do kind of uh songs and poetry and use the nine types to to describe, or they use poetry or songs to describe the nine types. Have you heard of them before? Okay. Um that that uh people will always say their their type song made them cry. Um so if you haven't heard of sleeping at last, that would be like fun and you know your type, that would be fun um to listen to. And then um, when you said the intimate uh the intimacy woman, Enneagram after dark or or whatever, we had one of my very first guests three plus years ago was Anne Gadd, who wrote the book Sex and the Enneagram. So, I mean, they're literally all different kinds of ways people are infusing the Enneagram into these different things. So that's kind of cool. It's like a buffet of all the ways.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

A buffet. Sure. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

That's so fun. Okay, so um uh one of the things that people will ask during a workshop or after a workshop is um, okay, well, I, you know, this is really fun. What books should I read? Or what uh we want to give our team gifts? What what what books should we read? And a lot of the authors of the books that I recommend were at the were at the conference, which makes sense. Uh, who were some of your uh, you know, if we can we'll say Enneagram celebrity sightings. Um give us kind of the scope.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

So yeah, I wow, when you say sightings, to your point, so many of the authors were there um, you know, sharing their books, sharing their thoughts, sharing their advice, sharing, sharing, sharing, sharing. Again, it was an experience. Um, I I would say those there were a few that I got to personally connect with, um, which was awesome. Uh Wes Hudson, um, Suzanne Stabil, um, Amory, um, of course, our friend and teacher, Mario Sakor. Um, so you know, got to like literally just chat with them, Patrick O'Leary, um, which was you know very interesting. That's my first time, actually my first time meeting all of them except for Mario. Um, and again, they were personable, uh, interactive. And so it was just great to just talk about the Enneagram from their perspectives, and especially, you know, someone like Russ, who is the founder of the IEA, or one of the founders, right? One of the founders of IEA. And he and his thoughts around how the Enneagram is growing and what that community community is looking like. Um and and and having some emotionality around that. Um and so that was you know really good because it's one of those things where you know he was sharing his story of when he was first introduced to this this space and what it looked like at that time and how much it's grown. And again, like in anything, there's some really good growth, and then and then there's some some growth that's questionable. Um but the majority of it is good, right? The majority of it is good, and the fact that to what we were just speaking about, which is there's it's in so many different spaces, there's so many different ways to navigate this tool and not only navigate, but integrate history into our lives, right? And be able to say and and and not make it as Mario says, right, uh you know, not make it the topic of I am X, but I have the strategy of, right? I've adapted the strategy of whatever number it is, and and just understanding and dive it into you know instincts and all the other different uh areas of the Enneagram is what I I'll call there for now.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Was there anything that stood out to you about what Russ was saying, how the Enneagram has evolved um for the better and potentially just some, I don't know, questionable growth?

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Yeah, I I would say, you know, with that, and not to, I'm not uh quoting him, um, but to paraphrase with some of the thoughts that he had was, you know, the fact that again that the community has grown so much. When you think about how many folks that I went to that first school, you know, at that college and and and took on that, and then folks left that space um feeling energized and empowered to then take that, and it's almost kind of like, hey, I heard the word up on the mountain, and now I'm taking it up to the people, kind of change, right? And how many people felt that calling to do that? And again, just like everything else, you know, is it's it then it's grown and it's it's it's has transformed um in different ways. And to me, that's what happens with a lot of um schools and and resources that are out there, right? Is that to me if they stay stagnant, it's like, oh, this I I try to stay away from what I call and and and um I don't want to take any copyright away from Star Wars, but I call it the Mandalorian, um, which is this is the way, right? The Mandalorians are like this is the way. And I try to stay away from those things that say, This is the way. You know, it's it's multiple ways. And the foundation um has stayed the same. The foundation has stayed the same, and at the same time, it's grown. Um, and it's grown in a way that uh folks can embrace it and feel comfortable where they are, um in in those spaces. And of course, as a as a leadership uh facilitator, I'm hoping that those same people who feel comfortable also leave room for growth and have that growth mindset to say, okay, what's what's next? And I think that's kind of what Rustin was getting, Russ was sharing, um which is what is that next space, and at the same time do your homework. So I think he was he was it was kind of like two things, right? So that's that's where it went to kind of the dark side of things, um, where things are growing and not in not such a positive way, which is you know, don't don't read a book or go to a a workshop or read one book and then be like, oh yeah, I know this.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

I'm gonna go. Um yeah, don't do that, right? And so that's what Russell was talking about, and and you know, a lot of the other folks that were there, they were sharing their stories of how they studied for years before they started facilitating any type of workshop. Um and so that was great to to hear folks saying, look, you know, that's what this looks like. And then understanding that there are so many different aspects to this that you have to do more research, you have to do more learning before you start teaching it. Now to embrace it and and and bring it into your life, that's a little different, right? You can read a book and say, hey, I like this thing, I want to incorporate that, right? I want to integrate that into my daily living. Um and then at the same time, you know, being open to possibly changing your mind, and that's that that's that intelligence, right? That's the intelligence that we we hope that people have, uh which is I hear something different, I want to look at that and then see if I want to apply it to my life or not.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Well, on that point, and I want to go back to one more thing that you said, um I I know that we're both in agreement on this, that um sometimes it is easy to get caught up in the Enneagram and make everything through the lens of the Enneagram. And also as a facilitator, we have to be very careful because we are obsessed a little bit with it, um, to not try and make our clients, the workshop attendees, conference attendees, Enneagram experts. And I have made that mistake, being very honest. You know, in my first, you know, teaching of the Enneagram, it's like I had 200 slides and I was no participation. I just want to share all of this with you, every single piece of the Enneagram in a half day. Let's go. Um and you start to realize, okay, it's not about the Enneagram. The Enneagram is a tool or a path to help you get to where you want to go. So it's not about becoming an expert on the Enneagram. It's about using the Enneagram to help you become an expert on yourself and your relationships. And there's lots of tools. We were just talking about therapy before this. You know, there's like therapy, there's other modalities, there's other things. Um, the Enneagram is a powerful tool. I'm I'm sure we're both a little biased. Um, but I I love that message about just being just holding it kind of kind of loosely and using it as a tool rather than, you know, how you see everything through.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Um and then the other thing, if you have anything else to add to this, um, because I know um I I did a better introduction, I did a more proper introduction on our first our first interview. So I I've I was I was talking, I was like, me and I should have introduced him better. So maybe, maybe maybe I'll go back and do that better. But um Dee also does his own, he has his own um trust collective uh leadership uh coaching and and training business. And um so we both work in the professional space. And I thought it was interesting to hear Russ just kind of validate how the Enneagram is growing and people are um being more open to it. You're seeing it pop up in other places. And I think in the professional environment, that's one of the bigger places that I've seen that growth because I think I don't know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, I don't, I don't know, um people probably thought of it as like astrology or some sort of like mystic training. And very credible groups are using it now. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, no, oh no, no, exactly what you just say. I mean, when it, you know, a lot of those folks that were introduced to this were coming from a space of theology and spirituality and and those types of things. Um and so, yes, for a while it was kind of looked at as woo-woo. And now I tell people, let's go from woo-hoo to woo-hoo. And about, you know, let's get excited about how it can actually help us, and especially when I work with leaders and teams, how can it help us be better leaders? How can it help us have better teams? Which then typically translates into our personal lives. Because if we show up better at work, then we can show up better at home, and vice versa. We show up better at home, we show up better at work. And so I think that's where when I work with people, they even share that. They're like, wow, what you just shared to your point, you shared it in a way that I could take that bit, I could apply it to work, and then I realized, ooh, I also can apply this at home. And home could be as small or broad as you want that to be. But yeah, that's that's that's one of the things I think Russ was talking about, and that's one of the things that I took away from that conference is that there was a spectrum of what how people were using the Ingram and what that looked like. And so you felt at home no matter where you were, where you come from the spiritual space, if you're coming from the business space, if you're coming from the personal space, if you're coming from the relationship space, it didn't matter. There was something there for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I love that. Now, I I um if you're okay sharing, and you can just kind of share generally if you can't get specific, but um I I just want to underscore this for our listeners who maybe haven't gone through one of our workshops. Um, the type of groups that are open to this, um, just to your point, uh, we've worked with a group of physicians, you know, steeped very much into the science research community who have embraced the Enneagram. And to your point, many of them came up to me after a workshop and said, Oh my God, I can't wait to take this back to my wife or my husband or my mom. Oh my God, I understand my dad so much better or my sister. So that's really cool when that happens. Um, but then uh Dee has also led um a leadership workshop with for us recently with uh the subsidiary company from a Foot Locker WSS and their executive leadership team. What are some of the other organizations that maybe you wouldn't, or industries types of groups that you have worked brought the Enneagram to that maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago might have thought, oh, this is this is woo-woo?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Well, I'm gonna tell you one industry as a whole that I've done a lot of work with this with the Enneagram, which is um local government. Um which a lot of folks would not think, you know, local government. And I do a lot of work in the local government space, um where folks are embracing it and going, wow. And I'm you know, leaders have said, oh my goodness, this this makes so much more sense to why. And when you think about boards and commissions and elected officials, you think about these people who are elected from different spaces, um, and they're coming in to represent, you know, a community, and they're not friends or any of those things in the beginning. They didn't, you know, and they were elected, and then they get to work together. And so when they sit there and start to understand each other and understand not only the things that they're trying to get past for their community, but then understanding the person behind that and how they can better work together and collaborate versus just cooperate. Oh, love that.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

And so um go ahead. Well, I something that I wanted to just uh underscore with the the government agencies. I just saw that I looked it up while you were sharing to make sure I got it right. Um, I just saw the military, a military group um out of London is spending a hundred thousand dollar, they have a hundred thousand dollar contract with integrative Enneagram solutions, which I think that's integrated. Of nine.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Probably, yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, because because they're out of London. Um and the article is about how the the military spending a hundred thousand dollars on the the personality, emotional intelligence. So to your point, um, you know, it it is it's it's showing up, people are embracing it and using it and all kinds of things. And I don't think the military is an industry that I'm like, oh yeah, they're doing they're doing the any group.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Exactly. Well, no, because so you know, as a veteran, I will tell you.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I guess, yeah, you got firsthand experience.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

As a veteran, if you don't have self-awareness, is one of the things that we talk about. Um, because if you don't understand yourself, it's gonna be very hard for you to lead other people. Um, and you know, I did not have the Enneagram back when I was serving in the military. And although I had some other tools, I will tell you the Enneagram would probably have been a great tool to have back then. Um for all of us, right? Because yes, one person can understand it, but when you're working with teams to have some something where everyone can understand where the other person's coming from is so much more powerful in that respect and having even the language. So even if you don't necessarily agree to be able to have a shared language around how you communicate, um, it it makes it easier to to navigate confidence.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yes. Yes. I I know I kind of cut you off to the Was there anything else that you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_02 23:42

No, I can always add so much. So no.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Okay, okay. I uh I told I told Dee before we started because he we were we were gonna talk about some other projects we might be getting into, and I just kept felt like I kept interrupting, and I was like, I'm just excited to talk to somebody today. So um, yeah, uh this is my outlet today. So, but uh okay, so we're we're talking about the different uses. You we talked about Russ. Uh, the other person, kind of Enneagram celebrity that I wanted to ask you about. Um, I think you had mentioned you talked to her with Suzanne Stabil. She, um, just for our listeners and those of you who um have done a workshop with us, you know I've talked about her in her podcast interview that she did with um Glenn and Doyle. Um, We Can Do Hard Things. There's an excellent two-part um interview with Suzanne on that show that is a great starting point or just a really interesting listen. So I and I just I always love hearing Suzanne talk. Uh so I would recommend that. I'll link that in the show notes. But um, what was what was that interaction like? Like what was she there to share? What was your conversation like? Uh give us give us the scoop.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah, no. So she now I know why they call her the Enneagram godmother.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Godmother, yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Um, because it was it it was also her energy. So and you know, you know me, I'm an energy person.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

Yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

And so her energy was fantastic. Um just and she was one also who shared about her journey of not teaching the Enneagram until she would you know, really took it in. And and she has a fantastic story. Um, you know, her husband, you know, was again when we talk about theology, was in that whole space. Um and then, you know, when she was introduced to the Enneagram, um, and then her and her husband were introduced at the same time, you know, it it was told to her, hey, go study this before you and and I can't remember the exact amount of time, but it was actually a pretty decent amount of time, but they were like, before you can share anything about this, you need to do this first, right? Um and so anyway, but she just mad at it. Um and she shares things like it is, so there's no you don't have to guess what she's thinking, because uh if she's thinking it, she's probably gonna say it at some point. Um and she may say it in a very uh professional way, or she may say it in a hey, here it is, and and again, not disrespectful, but just here it is, and and I like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Um well, and she's a type two, right? Or she's shared that she's a type two, I think. Um, and I always love that as an example because I think sometimes when you read about a type two, they're like very docile and just you know, very people pleasing. And and while sometimes that that very well may be true, um, you're right that anytime Susanna is share that I hear her share about it, she is very direct and she's funny, and um, you know, she's not necessarily uh, you know, sandwiching every everything. And so I just think that that's a really great example of a of another type of two that you may not see in some of the Instagram memes that you're seeing on social media.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Exactly. Well, you know, we're so much more than than those memes. Um and uh just to tab on that, too you know, two things. Twos, first of all, remember twos are connected to eight.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yes, the highway to eight. Many will talk about that highway to eight. Right?

SPEAKER_02 27:54

They have that highway to eight. So I and I'm married to someone who has and I will tell you now docile is not a word that comes up.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yeah, tooth twos can be very I feel like we need to do, yeah. Sometimes sometime I think it would be fun to do like a misconception show, myths and misconceptions, because uh yeah, many tooths are very direct and not not at all docile. So I think that just sometimes people get that in their head, or at least the people that I talk to and think, oh, I give you a two because I'm too direct or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Exactly. Well, you know, because you hear that term where they're helpful and uh yeah, the helper. You know, to be a helper, you must be docile. No, not necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Um, I mean a lot of apes are actually helpful.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Right. We we talk about you know, don't take advice from a type two and see what happens to you.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

This is not advice, but you would give me a trouble. We're not going on that road.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

But we almost will stay away from that. Okay, too close, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Oh okay, so yeah, Suzanne, and then um I have to ask because we haven't talked about it, and um, I'm always talking about Mario Sakura, who who is the kind of the the founder of the awareness to action Enneagram approach, which is what we mostly use here. Um, he was there. He gave a session, I believe. Was there any anything new or anything that he really uh leaned into that you think would be interesting for us?

SPEAKER_02 29:36

New.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

So I don't think that word new. I don't know about new as far as for us, right? Um, you know, because you think about we're reading his books, we're listening to his podcast.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Yeah, we're hearing a lot from him.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

You know, I will say what I got from Mario's and and and I'm just gonna be candid here. I love the conference, right? Love the conference, love, love, love, love, love the conference. And at the same time, you know, there were some great sessions, and then there were some sessions that weren't for me. Oh, right, there was some sessions that weren't for me, and at the same time that and I was serious, uh, because it might kind of answer so to your question, at the same time that Mario was having his session, um there was another session that was going on that was also talking about instinct. Okay, and so I was like, oh, you know what? I I started with Mario, and I started I started in Mario's session, and the other session was like right next door now or a couple doors down. I was like, well, you know what? I know Mario actually was right next door because I'll share this because I was like, you know what, I know Mario's, I've been here, and I was like, I'm going in next door and hear what they have to say. Uh while I was in there, uh, a totally different approach of how they this presenter presented. Um, remember I told you, you know, well, I don't have to tell you, you know me. I'm all about energy and engagement, and this was not energy or engagement.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Um, that's it for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

And and I was like, oh, and and I'm sitting next door and I can hear all the laughter that's happening in Mario session.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

And I'm next door, like I have FOMO.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Um, because I'm like, I I should be over there. Um and so what I will say is the approach that Mario brings um to sharing um the Enneagram from his perspective is engaging, is still, you know, I I heard other folks talking about it afterwards, and I was like, hey, you know, just it's engaging. It's informational. So you walk away with information that you can use. So it's it's very pragmatic, which is something also that I love, right? I love being able to take something and put it into practice right away. And so that's what I heard folks saying, like, wow, I actually have something that I can put into uh play right now, so that plug and play kind of uh mentality. Um so that's what I would probably share with that is that from what I heard, because I decided to take a step out, and I look at that as a learning experience. Um what works for me and what doesn't. Um but yeah, it it it was that's what I would say that I I got from that session is that folks were folks feel still feel like they can laugh and learn. And I think that's important. Yeah, is that we can have fun while we learn. It doesn't have to be this very stale, stagnant kind of a space, which I think sometimes also people thought about with the Enneagram, and it's very serious, yeah. Very serious, very heavy. Um, and although there are some spaces that it can be, um, it's not a it has to be, and that's not the way it's always presented. And so that's what I would say about that. If if I came close to answering your question.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Well, and it and I think that is important because a lot of times um we may only have three or four hours with a group. And so the last thing we want to do is make it really heavy and complicated so that they feel like, oh, I can't touch this again. Um, it's too, it's too much. And so I I love I love the um the tiki humor that Mario has. And what Dee is talking about for those of you who um aren't as familiar with Mario's approach, is one of his key differentiators is the way that he talks about um what he calls the instinctual biases. So that's kind of it, it there ends up being kind of three flavors of each of the types. And the way that he talks about it and has approached it, it's just it's just a really great um it's a really great approach, especially for a professional environment. Whereas, you know, the other um approaches use terms that just like like sexual uh subtype, you know, it's just not most groups, you know, I've had I had to wipe that out and in the past when I was using it. They're like, can you not use this word? So then we would use one-to-one and then, you know, so I I really love the way that he talks about it. And that that it's such a such a rich, um, just deeper insight. People love to learn about the nine types, and then you add this on, and it's really great. And uh, Mario, I you know, I'm obviously biased, but he is the best at that. Um, and then I know he's doing a lot of stuff around critical thinking um and thinking well. And uh I think that's really important just with the current climate we're in, you know, politically, you know, just everything. And then um even using it to to think about types and the Enneagram and how to use it. And um, so I I really appreciate that. Um, any other Enneagram interaction?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Well, why are you talking about that? Yes. And again, I'm not keeping in mind that these are that we're not the type. That's that's one of the things, and again, I don't know, I I wouldn't say that's new, Mario's Mario's always have that mindset, as have I. Like you're not the type. It's a strategy that you've learned and or adapted. And so just keeping that in mind, right? Which means there's to that critical thinking piece that there once you have their brandage, you can decide how you want to show up. And what is that gonna look like, right? And and some of those those strategies are probably still gonna be in play, however, they don't have to dominate. And you know, go into that adaptive, maladaptive mindset.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

And that's one of the reasons why they don't, and therefore we don't always use um names for the types. Um, and I picked that up from the way that he teaches, although he does have leadership styles, and I will will use that in in different um workshops because people still love a good title. But um that that it's so easy to say, oh, the achiever. Oh, yeah, I want to be the achiever or the helper. No, I don't really help a lot, so I'm not the helper. But the way that that they he really talks about it is more of like what you do and a strategy, and that's hard to make it just a single word. And and that does require a little bit more thinking, um, deeper self-reflection on um, oh, I'm actually striving to feel connected. I'm helping because I actually am want to be connected, I want to feel connected. And you know, that just takes a little bit more, I don't know, I get I guess it is thinking.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Well, intentionality. Kind of what we started with in the very beginning about this is is what's the intentionality around it?

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Why am I doing it, right? What's the motivation? One of the things that I love about the Enneagram versus, you know, and and one of the things in trust leadership collective is, you know, everything is from a foundation of awareness. And so I use multiple different assessments besides the Enneagram. But one of the things that I love about the Enneagram is that it goes beyond the behavior. So many times. And so I I would share that with anyone who's whether you're a facilitator of the Enneagram or or or you know, just someone who's trying to embrace the Enneagram, it's so much more than your behavior, right? It's looking at what's the motivation behind it and why are we doing those behaviors because we can have the same behaviors all the time. And you know, I use the analogy of we all can be drinking water, but we're drinking water for different reasons. Someone's drinking water because they're thirsty, someone's drinking water because you know the doctor told them they have to drink more water, someone's drinking water because they don't want to get wrinkles, drinking water. Someone's drinking water because everybody else is drinking water and they don't want to be disrespectful. You know, multiple different reasons of why we're doing the same behavior. So um so anyway, I just think it's important also when I think about the Enneagram to point those types of things out.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

That is, and especially um in the typing process, this is where it can get really tricky um is focusing too much on those behaviors, that behavior list. And so we'll talk about common tendencies, but it you do just have to be very careful about how we teach it. We have to be very careful and responsible, and then also careful with how you take that in um when you're finding your type, because you may, to your point, be drinking water like somebody else and think, oh, it must be a type one, but it's like, well, really, when I dig into it, it's because of this. So um it makes it it makes it a little bit more tricky, but it also um I think is reflective of the complexity of the human experience. So that makes sense that it wouldn't just be an easy, an easy aha. Um speaking, speaking of different uses of the Enneagram, I know that you went to a relationship uh session um because so many people do take what they learn in our workshops and take it back home to their relationships. Um what what was that session and and what came out of that for you?

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Oh, yeah, I love that. So um it was Michelle Joy's uh developmental underground for couples session. And um, so shout out to Michelle because she did it. I I didn't get a chance to actually chat with her. Um, but it was a fantastic session. And for me, uh a takeaway and I got vulnerable and personal um in that session, um, which is looking at how a lot of times we can come into a space and we we are projecting the thing that we want and expecting people to meet those expectations and what does that look like, um, and taking some time back to say, hey, am I really am I really giving this person space to share what they need to share? Or am I just, you know, here, here's the thing. Um and I know sometimes like I I was sharing on a personal note, you know, as someone who is neurodivergent, I can get stuck on words.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

Right?

SPEAKER_02 41:24

If you use a word for me and especially absolutes, if you use the all.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Always, never, like always, never.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

When you use those terms, it I automatically I get triggered and I'm I'm I'm focusing now. Nothing else that you say matters, because now I'm focused on this really, like always. It's a tricky that that never happened. Um and so you know, understanding those, again, having awareness to that, and not using that as, oh, well, I'm neurodivergent, so you have to understand that if you say this, we're not going anywhere. I mean, that is a thing. And at the same time, I have to be aware that I have that. And so my work, my exercise is there to say, okay, what is it that, and I'm just gonna use my wife for example, because in the couple of relationships doesn't it was, I was like, when my wife uses those uh absolutes, um, as people with strategy two and strategy ones tend to do, when they use those absolutes, looking past that and saying, okay, what's the message they're really trying to get at?

SPEAKER_03 42:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

And I thought that was what Michelle was really kind of planning, saying, Hey, are we really giving ourselves a chance to listen to what is it that they're really trying to say, or are we finding these other things so that we don't have to be accountable for the thing that they're trying to bring up? Oh so anyway, so that was just one thing for that was personal for me. Um, there was other things that folks that were there that were talking about that felt that it really hit for them to be again practical that you can take away. But and that's what I love. There were so many of those that were that. So many things that you walk in and say, okay, I know now how to take that one hour, and now I have something that I can bring into my life to change the rest of my life versus you know, one hour to change your life. Really? Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Well, and I I I've been to um couples counseling in the past or couples therapy. Um, and it is so helpful. And I always had wished that my therapist hadn't known about the Enneagram because you to, I think you were talking about the language um earlier, to some sort, you just kind of like, okay, we can skip over all of this and we can kind of jump in right here. Now that you know I'm striving to feel excited, my partner's striving to feel connected. Okay. Now let's talk about the issues. And I just want to give Michelle as a resource to our listeners because she is like a licensed marriage and family therapist. She has the couples institute. And now it looks like the couples institute counseling services. So it looks like, and and please correct me if I'm wrong, that she is doing both working directly with clients and then also working with other therapists to bring in the Enneagram to their practice. We're not talking about uh how to use this with your spouse. If you pick up some things that are interesting, by all means. But I'm I'm not, this is not my lane, right? We have professional experience. So we're going to bring that into how we talk about the Enneagram. Michelle is has experience and the qualifications that it's like, okay, you know, we I we let's talk about couples' interactions and then infuse the Enneagram into that. Um, and it being a very um uh legitimate resource. Because I know that there's others that you just kind of want to be careful about. So she she is one that um we would recommend reaching out to if you want to bring it to your relationships.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yep, yep, nope, for sure. And and since you did that, then you now you just put me in a spot where if I don't do this, I'm gonna like I'm gonna get in trouble. So um, because you know my wife is a therapist who's well that yes, well, shout out. Yes, let's plug your life in her practice. Um, she doesn't teach, which I keep trying to get her to do, but she doesn't teach um other therapists how to use it. They do contact her sometimes um to talk about things, but yeah, she uses the Innegram a lot in her practice um here in Colorado. So tell you Dash.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

I was like, well, let's let's link it up because I know we have um there's a big interest it out in the Denver area, which is where and does she do video remote there? Is it just in Colorado?

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Yeah, so so since you know, since COVID, I would say pretty much I would say 96% of her clients are you know using you know virtual.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Okay. And and can is she is she like because I know with licensing, especially in therapy, it's like you have to have the state. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

A whole different conversation that she and I have been having because I I hear in that space they're opening up ways for therapists to be because mental health is so important right now, they're opening up ways for therapists to be able to do work in other states because there's just not enough therapists in this country for the level where uh mental health is is you know, unfortunately going. Um so that's something that's that's coming.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Okay, okay. Well, let's we'll link her thing, her website or the best way to contact her in the show notes here. Um, in addition to Michelle, who I think for those listeners who are therapists or relationship coaches, um she would be a great resource for now to look at how I can infuse the Enneagram into that. Um, any other insights um that you are taking from the conference that you'll be applying to either your own personal development or the work that you do with the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Yeah, um, for me, I guess there's a couple. Uh really quick, I want to give uh shout out to all the ATA uh alum that were there.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Um awareness to action, which is the awareness to action Enneagram.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

So all the alums that were there that I got to hang out with, it was fantastic. Also got to meet Milton Stewart, who is the president elect for the IEA. Um so very, very cool um person to interact with and meet. Um and then to your question. What I'm taking away, which what I love, of course, being a student of the ATA, I love that space. And at the same time, I am not just a student of the ATA, I'm a student of the Enneagram. And being a student of the Enneagram, one of the things and I talk about a lot about inclusion and how um diverse things were. And when I talk about diversity, it is very easy to go to the you know, race and gender. Right. But when I talk about diversity, I'm just talking about the modalities that were there and what that looks like. And for me, someone who again as a student of the Enneagram is to look at all the different ways of how to use the Enneag to help folks. And so that's what really got me jazzed and juiced up um at the leaving that conference is seeing that you know I want to meet people when I'm working with folks, when I'm working with teams, I want to be able to meet them where they are. And I want to be able, it's like learning a different language. I want to be able to speak their language and meet them with what they know about. And so um seeing that, seeing folks doing that and then understanding how I operate, um, that's what I really take away and it's really jazzed about was like, yeah, I love this foundation. Um and I want to be able to build upon that and and be able to um not be everything to everybody knowing who I am, knowing how I how I do this work, and at the same time, I can speak the language.

SPEAKER_03 50:16

Right?

SPEAKER_02 50:17

I can speak the language, I can communicate with folks and help them um using this tool to get to wherever it is that they're trying to get to. And then if I get to a space where I'm like, ooh, that's out of my lane, also knowing, you know, I networking and being able to know who I can pass that upon to, okay. Like, yeah, that is not me. So let me introduce you to X. Or you may want to look at X. You know, the same way that we're just doing, like, hey, if you want to learn this, look at this person, right? Because we are not gonna be everything to everybody, and at the same time, I want to be able to communicate um with I do want to communicate with Amy and everybody when I can.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Yeah. And uh, you know, I even though I I am very team awareness to action and and the way that we teach it, most of the time we don't have years with a client. I mean, at best, you know, it um it's you know, three or four months most of the time. Typically, it's sometimes it's even just two hours. And so I love the way that awareness to action, the way that they approach it, it makes it easy to be able to share. But that's not to say that once you get into it, or even just for your personal life, that some of these other teachers don't also have wonderful um approaches and and nuggets that you can pick up. One of my favorite books was, I think it was um The Journey to Wholeness by Suzanne Stabil. Um she talks a lot about stances, which I know awareness to action doesn't, but I I really love that book and I still recommend that book. Um and oh my gosh, I just I just lost my thought talking about other approaches. Oh, I I also wanted to give uh we were talking about them before we hit play or record, um, the Fathoms podcast. Yes. Um, they have done, oh my gosh, such a robust, I think is understating it, but that's this a robust um look at three or four different approaches to the Enneagram. And uh it was just a wonderful season. So if you are really feeling the Enneagram for those fellow Enneagram enthusiasts, um, I would recommend checking out their latest season on The Fathoms where they dive into the different approaches and then they do kind of a this is how this approach talks about a seven, this is how this approach talks about a seven, this is how this approach talks about instincts. So you really get a um a deep look into the the different ways that people talk and use the Enneagram.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Yep, yeah. So shout out to Seth, Lindsay, and and Creek.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

Um I also got to hang out with them for a bit, so that was that was cool.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

So I mean, and they are they are also part of the ATA community.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

So yeah, that that was my that was my way in the beginning to say all those folks, but then since you brought up Atoms, I'm like, well, now I get to shout them out.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Um well I I have talked a lot about their podcasts. I mean, I mean you you gotta be, you know, interested in the Enneagram, but it is interesting for people who are like, what's the difference? What's this? What's this? It's it's a wonderful um look at that and very, very robust. I know they put a ton of work into that season.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Yep, yep, no. And and they were again, they you know, they were there at the conference and they even had a whole thing of where you could sign up and kind of share your thoughts about what was happening with the conference.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

So oh, that's fun.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Yeah, so that's probably gonna that's probably gonna be an episode if it's not already, it hasn't already come out because I'm behind and all that because I I it's been travel, travel, travel for me since then.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

So okay, well, plug plugging the fathoms Enneagram podcast. Um, is there anything else? I I I know we've we've kind of covered all kinds of random things, but as we start to wrap up, is there anything else that you definitely want to leave our listeners with, either as a really interesting takeaway, just kind of where you see the Enneagram going, a funny story, another interaction that you had with somebody that you think we would enjoy? Any anything else you want to share with us that would kind of make this conversation feel complete?

SPEAKER_02 54:38

I I think for me, what I would probably believe, right? Because and this is probably it's about the conference, and it's also I think about the Enneagram as a whole, which is it's not about just learning it, but it's about living it. Like, how do you actually take what what you're learning, whether you're reading, whether it's a podcast, whether it's uh you know, a workshop or a school, whatever it is, you know, are you really bringing it in and and and doing the work? And you know, I know we've I know I'm maybe we might want to go back to Mario and be like, you know what, you're gonna have to pay us because we've we've we've shared three.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

We need to be paid spokespeople, yes.

SPEAKER_02 55:28

Uh right. But with that, right, it is that maybe that same thing of of Mario's first book and and and his school's name, which is awareness to action. Like, are you living it? Or, you know, are you actually putting those things in action? Um, and I think that's another reason that I gravitated to that school first, um, from a certification standpoint, which is that's always been my mentality. Like, if you're not if I'm not doing anything with it, then it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

And so I think that's the way I would like to end this, is to share with folks is that learning it is great. But then taking some things and and actually saying, okay, how can I apply this? How can I apply it? How can I actually do something with it? Um and I will say to give us a plug, Sarah, is I think that's what I think that's how we try to approach the work that we do, right? Is to make sure that we're giving folks something that they can truly take nuggets and apply it so that it's it's it's ROI. Don't go ahead and go do a business. You know, it's it's ROI. You you're gonna get a return on investment, but you have to be willing to put that work in. It's not magic, right? It's not very dust. Um, it's practical um if you use it.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Yeah, awareness is a necessary first step. You cannot skip over it, but also it just cannot stop there. Um, and so it's a starting point, and and that emotional intelligence is made up that of that self-awareness and the other's awareness. And then you get into self-development and relationship development, that's where that action happens. So um, yeah, I mean, that is yeah, well said. I'll just say well said. Um Well, I uh I'm excited um to be talking with you today for listeners to kind of get a sneak peek who probably weren't there um at the conference. And if you happen to be there, hopefully uh some some good memories got jogged. If you had any additional insights that you want us to share in a future episode, please please reach out anyagramba.com forward slash contact. Um, and then you'll probably be hearing from Dee again in the future. We're gonna be working on some other interesting um podcast topics and and make it a little bit more um conversational. So looking forward to that. I think you want to say something else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

No, I even do you see it on my face.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Yeah, I can see it.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

I just thought about why because it's someone that I do want to plug really quickly. I love I went to this session and I love this session. And again, as someone who is neurodivergent, this person is doing a lot of work in the neuroscience space.

SPEAKER_01 58:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

So Tang Si Yookion.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Okay, and this is right here.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Uh I'm I'm uh pull it back just a little bit for the for YouTube. Uh it's like it's white it, it's really white. It's might be too bright. What's what's the book called for listeners?

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Making team dynamics visible.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Oh, you know, I I some of my leadership work is touches in the neuroscience space. Um and so looking at for me integrating in with neuroscience, um, I think again is something that's just awesome. Um, and again, showing that it is so versatile of this, this, this work. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

I'm glad you brought that up. That that may be an interesting topic or maybe an interesting guest to get on the show. Um, because um what I have found, I mean, so many people will talk about their, you know, being neurodivergent. Typically, I hear it from the the perspective of I'm a DHD. Um, and then people always think, oh, well, I'm ADHD. I must be a seven. I can't focus. But it's like, oh, well, wait a minute. There's so much more, number one. And um, that also does kind of flavor again the typing process because you may not see the way that you present a type three, for example, in a lot of the Enneagram, the typical Enneagram literature. So I I love having a a resource for somebody who is studying that and and talking more about that. So we'll we'll definitely link that and that may be a fun kind of co-interview we we get since you kind of have the end now. So we'll see. Um, I'm glad you brought that up. That was a a great um final thought. Any other final thoughts before we complete? No, that was a good one. That was such a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

No, she she she was very impactful and again, very engaging. Um and so yeah, so I definitely had to bring her up. Her session was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Okay, I'm glad you brought her up. Um, I'm glad you said that. And uh with that, we'll close it out. I uh appreciate you being here, sharing. Um, it sounds like we'll probably be seeing you back here soon. Listeners, as always, thanks for being here, and uh, we'll see you in the next one.