SPEAKER_03 0:00

When does that withdrawal become disconnection? Because I don't think that's the intent. But there are a lot of times that is the impact.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. I am one of your hosts today, Sarah Wallace. And then we have a co-host today, our other co-host, Demetrius D. Parker, joining us. Hello, Dee.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Hello, hello, hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

And today, actually, Dee's gonna let us know what we're talking about. We're in the middle of a series, I guess ending this series. And what are we getting into today?

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Well, today is gonna be the four, five, and nine. So if you ever wonder why some people, you know, retreat into their thoughts, their feelings, or even to a space of peace, right, and quiet when things get tough. Today we're gonna be diving into that space with the four, five, and nine.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, and and uh I think this type, these types can sometimes be misunderstood. I think uh there's misconception and myth about all of them. But I think because these types can be more in their head or their feelings than some of the others, there is so much going on that we may not see on the outside, which can lead to assumptions and misunderstanding these types. So this will be a good one for our four, fives, and nines, hopefully, maybe validating you. Um, and then also for the rest of us to kind of understand what might be going on that we're just not seeing on the surface. So um, if you haven't already, we have done an episode on 378, which uh assertive or we called kind of the high energy type. We did the 126 group, which is sometimes called the compliant or dutiful group. These types tend to be really focused on kind of group cohesion. And then today talking about kind of the withdrawn or um, and we'll talk about why they are called the withdrawn stance. Uh I guess we we go at why why are they called the withdrawn types?

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Well, I would say it's it's it's because they seem to, at least from our perspective, they seem to retreat uh when things are happening, right? And so I I would say for fours. So fours, you know, they kind of their core strategy of joy is into their emotions and their identity. And so they they kind of go back into that space of where they're feeling from an emotional standpoint. And so folks can yeah, folks see that and that's a there's a theme that comes up. However, I would say with that though, the superpowers coming out of that that or coming out of that space is depth, authenticity, creativity, um which all things that I think we all love. And at the same time there is that blind spot of you know, they can overly identify with what's missing or the emotions, and then it can feel like envy or sometimes even melancholy. And so that's that's what I would say for fours, something for to be aware of. Um example of that would be, you know, tend to be honors, uh, some leaders, everyday folks that bring that uniqueness, but also sometimes isolate. A lot of folks, and I I don't know for sure, and I'm not a I'm not uh I don't I'm not great at typing, uh, but some people say Taylor Swift is probably a four.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

I agree. I think so too. I think it's either people I hear people really stand firm on type three, but I think she is so elaborative and descriptive with the you know, it's not like I'm sad, she's like I'm down bad crying at the gym. And I think that's one of the gifts of the four is that ability to be incredibly empathetic and in touch and storytell through emotions. So I'm I I'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Um, so anyway, so that's what I would just share right now about the four. Um yeah, what are your thoughts about? Let's go in, yeah. Let's go in order. What do we think about five?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah. So I I like that distinction about how each withdraw, but kind of into different inner areas. So four is the emotions, and then the fives striving to feel detached or really wanting to be self-sufficient, capable, competent, um, they will withdraw into their thoughts. And I think um in the workplace, the feedback that I hear about fives, or fives will say, This is how people get me wrong, is that they do spend a lot of time thinking, analyzing, observing. And so they're actually really engaged, but it's all happening in their head. They're not necessarily like emotive with their hands or their facial expressions. It's all happening in their heads. And so rather than maybe confront someone who they might disagree with or offer an initial idea or opinion, or, you know, have have an opinion on something else. Um, before they do that, they're gonna kind of check in with themselves, like, what do I know about this? What am I seeing? What do the numbers say? What's the data say? It's not what do I feel, it's what do I think? What what are what's the information telling me? Um, they are the type that tend to think feelings are not facts. Um, show me the data, don't give me the drama kind of energy. And so they will they will go within and kind of put all of these data points together and can be really creative problem solvers because of that. But on the outside, they can be experienced as aloof, disengaged, um, cold, robotic. But fives will typically say, no, it's just I'm it's all happening up here. I'm I've kind of withdrawn into my head. Um anything you would what would you add to that?

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Yeah, no, I spot on. And I I think I I've heard people call them the quiet genius.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Um yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Because when they do when they do decide to to share out the analyzing all the data, you know, it it they can do it concisely and effectively to where folks will go, wow, okay, I can see that. Um But yeah, it's that it's that space of feeling like there's a reluctance to engage in the beginning, like in the moment. And especially when you think about if they're in a space with three, sevens, eights, even out. And you know, we're like, hmm, why they why they holding their energy?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah. Yeah. It can kind of feel overwhelming.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

Can be. Can be. Uh so nine. Um striving for peace. Yeah. Um I I like these folks, and at times I can resonate, you know, as a as as a three that's on that three, six, nine continuum. There are times I can, you know, but that core strategy of redrawing, withdrawing into that comfort, that peace, that harmony, space. You know, and they can see all sides of things, which at times can infuriate people. Like, all right, pick a side. But they're seeing all sides, and they can come into a space and bring calm. You know, they bring the calm and that bridge building. Uh you would say on the blind spot side is that they can also seem avoidant or even I at times feel like they're numbing out. Like, what's going on with that? And so although they can be the blue, I think just sometimes they fade into the black and uh the black ground. The background They fade into the background. Um and then and then it's almost like they're not there. Which I think sometimes then they get upset because they feel like they're invisible, but I feel that that's it's kind of like a creature of their own creation.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, like self-inflicted.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Yeah, it's like like you did this, like no, no one called on you because typically you don't say anything when they do call on you, or when you do say it's you know, I'm I agree with what what you said. And I tell people like if you want to go to lunch, um, don't ask a man to decide where you're going.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

You know, they'll be hungry if you ask them, Are you hungry? They'll say, Yeah, where you want to go, wherever you want to go.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

And I think most of the time they mean it. It's like I really don't care. Yeah. And I I think that that can be hard for some of us who have such strong opinions about almost everything. And it's like, no, where do you want to go? Or what do you really think? And I think um one of the things that the rest of the types can do to be a supportive teammate is to just take them at their word. Like, okay, you really don't care. You know, I mean, at times you they might need to be pushed for important things, but picking the lunch spot probably isn't one of those times. So just like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

Okay, exactly. But with that, I I will say still ask.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Still ask, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Because that's that's what I I I think what I've heard from folks that have that non strategy is that people still have to take that for granted. And then they just stop asking.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

And then and then we're dealing with a whole different set of issues when we don't. So I would say still check in to say, hey, but you know, just kind of have the thought of. More than likely, they're gonna say wherever you want to go. And that's at times.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

And I think one of the themes with all three of these, in addition to like some form of going within, um, is these types too tend to need a little bit more time to process information before they do give their feedback or an opinion or give you an answer. Um, that that is something that I will hear um from fives, nines, and they'll say, you know, if I'm expected to speak at a meeting as much as possible, like, can you let us know? Can you send out the agenda the day before?

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

So that I can, and like, what should I be considering? What should I be thinking about? Um, because to be put on the spot can feel, I mean, of course, you're gonna be put on the spot sometimes. Like you, I mean, you somebody might need an answer right away. So that'll be like your growth, some of that. But, you know, again, being a supportive manager or teammate as much as you can and say, hey, I don't need an answer right now, but I'd like for you to think about this and then let's meet for lunch tomorrow or or whatever. Um, so that they have that time to kind of process through and not feel rushed and or regretful for anything they might have said or decisions they had to make in you know, a quick second.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

And it's and especially on the important things.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Um to your point earlier, you know, if it's if it's about where we're going for lunch or what movie we want to see, maybe not as much, but if it when it's something that is of importance, I think it's it's very much uh in our favor to give them that that opportunity and time to process that's going quite. And and typically we are all better for it.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

When we when we do that. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, we get those insights. And I I also think that sometimes I really don't know, like, especially nine, somebody was telling me before that they were like, you know, someone's like, how you doing, or how you feel about this kind of hard situation? And they're like, I mean, I I'm really not sure right now. I'm not sure how I feel about it. And for some people who are, you know, maybe quicker to think, or maybe even a four in different situations might be like, oh, this is yeah, definitely how I feel. But I've heard from nines that they're they'll say sometimes, like, I'm not sure how I feel right now about it. I kind of need to understand how I need to process how I feel about it. And then it's like, you know what? Actually, I'm really mad. And uh, I've heard fives go home and uh, you know, something happened at work and then they'll be thinking about it and thinking about it, and it'll be like nine o'clock at night, and they're like, you know, that really ticked me off now that I'm thinking about it. And it just kind of takes that it's that processing time, kind of thinking through things.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

I'm laughing against the fact that you said, now that I'm thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah.

unknown 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

You're asking about a feeling, and then they're like, oh, now that I'm thinking about it, I can tell you feel that I had to put some thought into how I was feeling.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

I think I think about how I feel, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Oh, but I I will tell you as a three, I can resonate with that at times, which is why threes and fives can sometimes uh uh get confused. Um you know, like I ain't got time for feelings. Um but yeah, so you know, I I feel that a lot of times that also comes from a safety standpoint. Like, do they feel they feel safer uh with the internal, like there's more control than the outside. So what are your thoughts around that?

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Cause I think for fours, you know, it's the fear of not wanting to be misunderstood or the desire to be understood, but just not trusting that anyone will get it to understand them. So it's like, I'll kind of keep that inside. Um for the fives, I think it is um, you know, just just the I I think that they're so factual and so like data driven that it's sometimes I just wonder like, do well, does does this matter how I feel about this right now? Like what what does this contribute? Um, going back to that, like facts, feelings are not facts kind of thing. So who cares how I feel about this? Um, and then nines kind of worrying about, you know, rocking the boat. And um, yeah, and and I do think too that fives do have a desire to be self-sufficient and they kind of expect others to be self-sufficient, and so I I sometimes can see them worrying, well, if I'm over here, you know, saying too much or getting too much in the feelings or sharing too much, then I'm gonna have to like reciprocate and I'm gonna have to listen. It's like I just don't I don't want to do like I I don't want to do that. So um, so I don't know, those are some things that I I kind of see would is would you add anything to that?

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Yeah, no, I I actually like all that. I I guess I have more I think more so of a question, which is or challenge to with these three, which is when does that withdrawal become disconnection? Because I don't think that's the intent. But there are a lot of times that is the impact. And so I I wonder for them if they can delineate the two and understand like, hey, when am I just being with you know, withdrawn because I need to, you know, get some more clarity or I need some calm or whatever that may be versus when they're doing that versus I am disconnected. Like I'm yeah, I'm not here.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

That's a really good question. I so if you are a four, a five, or a nine, I think that's a really good one to ask yourself. Um, I think what comes up for me is when there is no next step or like, well, after you withdraw for a bit, after you process, then what? So for example, like what I was saying with the five, like, yeah, take the day, think about it, let's reconnect tomorrow, or like, or you know, all of them, like the four. You know, let me, I'm really, this is really emotional right now. So before I say something that I'm gonna regret, let me let me kind of process through this and like let's connect tomorrow morning. Um, so that it's like I'm gonna disconnect, but I have a plan to or a commitment to you who I care about. Like obviously, we don't have to do this with every relationship in our life. These are the relationships that matter to us, or maybe that are forced to matter with our coworkers in certain situations. Um, but that that's what comes to mind for me is do it, disengage, but then have some sort of plan to come back so the other person isn't just left hanging.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Yeah, I it's it's interesting because as you said that word disengage, and maybe this is like my three-ness space of coming in here, but I'm wondering, is it truly are they disengaging? Because you know, are they disengaging or are they just in a moment where they are still engaged but in their own way?

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Right?

SPEAKER_03 19:24

To your point, I'm engaged, but now I just went internal so that I can stay engaged and actually just do the things that I need to do so that when I share because I think a lot of times we think of engagement as uh from a verbal standpoint. Like we look we think about engagement like are they saying something? I didn't hear something and even that doing, I I even when you say the doing, I think those of us who are, especially I would say, just owning in that assertive high energy space, we think of action as this external thing that we can see. But there's also if you think about it, thinking is an action. Right? So thinking is an action, and that's what they're doing, is taking some time to think about it from their perspective. They could still be engaged, and I'm only saying this because maybe it is a reframe for us as we are as we are engaging with these folks, um, to understand how they engage. That you know, when they do it externally and verbally, that's them meaning us where we are, and are we reciprocating that?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah, that's a that's a great point. Because it might just seem for the other types that it is they're disengaging, but to your point, it's like, no, I'm I'm very into this. I just need I'm just doing it differently than you.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

I'm just doing it differently, right? And so yeah, you know, I which again I think brings us back to that challenge question that I asked, which is when is when is which true? Right? When is it that you are I'm gonna call it internally engaged and when is it that you've truly come become disconnected? Because I think that's the I think that's the issue for those of us that aren't operating in that space, is sometimes we don't know the difference. And so Yeah. So that's where I'm at with that. It's just trying to think about what would that look like, and maybe at some point and we when we you know set out this episode, the four, fives, and nines can can chime in and say, hey, here's what this looks like. Here's what it looks like when I'm internally engaged, and here's what it's like when I'm truly disconnected, to give us all some insight into what that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Well, and you know, too, um we're kind of talking about it as a something to kind of navigate around or or understand, but can but this can also Also be a huge benefit in certain situations for the other types to lean into. You know, for you know, the four. How how am I really feeling about this? Like, let me really get in touch with like beyond mad, sad, happy. Like, I'm disappointed. I'm embarrassed. I'm, you know, what what is that that I'm actually feeling for the fives before we just jump into action? You know, maybe let's take some time and think this through. Or um rather than being, you know, like chaotically anxious and being unproductively productive or productive, what you know what I mean? Let's just like, hey, I look like I'm productive, but actually I'm busy. I'm busy. Yes, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, I'm productively busy. Yes. Um it's like, well, what would happen if I pulled back or disengaged or withdrew, slowed it down a little bit. Um and could that actually be more beneficial, more productive? So I I think this is um it can be a something that the rest of us can pull and lean into in certain situations.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

For sure. Um, I I know for me, it works to my advantage when I can. Again, like I said, as I'm on that continuum, it's very beneficial for me when I rest over to that nine. And again, when I'm doing it in an adaptive way. Um, because I've also done it in a maladaptive way.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Like yeah, let's let's talk about that real quick. Yeah, because the seven goes to a five and a three goes to a nine and can use it in both ways, of course. So, what yeah, what does adaptive and maladaptive look like for you at the nine relationship?

SPEAKER_03 23:52

Uh wow. Okay, so vulnerable moment. All right.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Uh so channel our inner four and get a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

No, no, no, no. Right, right. I'll I can do that. I can get over there. That's my neighbor. Oh, so I'll share it in a in a story. So when I first was introduced to the Enneagram, um the way they it was introduced to me is the folks that introduced it to me, they thought I was a nine. Um, and the reason why they thought I was a nine is because they had seen me maladaptively go to that space. So um when interacting with them and things got what I would probably consider just too chaotic, or you know, it was so this group of people are a group of very intelligent people. Um and at the same time, and you may have seen this before, like when you get a group of very intelligent people and everyone has their own uh way of thinking about things, right? Things can get very chaotic and intense. And I typically don't mind that, but the relationship that I had with them, there's a space where I was like trying not to be too disruptive or or come off in a way that may damage the relationship. Um so what I would do is I would completely shut down. And that's what I mean by the maladaptive. Like I would not only so talk about that disconnection, I would retreat and just be like, numb out. Yep, I numb out. I would literally numb out, and I'm like, I'm here, but I'm not here. Um and uh I don't know if you I don't know if you do you know Harry Potter at all?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Yes, I didn't I miss the boat on the books and the movies, but I I know the concept.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Oh I don't know what house I'm in. There's a there's a character in there called the Dementors, which is like they suck like the energy out of the room. And and I have been told that when I uh when I'm in that maladaptive nine, it's like a dementor. Like I just suck out all the energy out of the room, and exactly, and then like no one, like they just feel like I I don't know what to do. Because if you think about it, because typically I come in with a lot of energy, uh-huh. And then when I decide I'm turning it off, uh-huh, it's noticeable. Like, you know, folks are like, whoa, something's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Um, and so that's that maladaptive. So just sharing, right? Like that maladaptive, that's what that looks like. And then adaptive is when I actually take that time and I'm going, you know what? I'm gonna slow down and actually ask myself, what is it that I really want in this space? How do I want to share what I'm about to share? Because to your point, I can share something all the time. Um because that I always have an opinion and I'm always always willing to share it. Um but sometimes timing is what's gonna make what I share most effective. And so when I can take that time to step back, let others actually have some space, uh, let others share. When I can do that and be in that mindset, I I feel that what I then share is hurt a lot more. So that's my malin and adaptive and maladaptive.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

That and and um I think it's very common. A lot of threes will say, you know, when I'm stressed, I'll kind of, you know, do the busy but but feel like I'm being productive, kind of thing. And then when that kind of reaches burnout, then it's like then I go to the opposite and it's like I'm numbing out. And a lot of threes will resonate with the the nine right there on that one. Um yeah, I uh I think as a as a seven, um the the five can be um such a such a uh an important part of my life to keep in mind and remember. So, you know, there's kind of one thing, one side is oh, paralysis analysis, you think, think, think, you need to jump into action. Action creates clack clarity, which I do believe. And uh, and that can be great advice. Um, and then the other end of that spectrum is just like constant action without thinking things through, like, well, where do I really want to go? Like, what's my north star in life? Like, how does this action align? And so when I can pair that with the thoughtfulness of the five and not what feels most exciting and most fun, but what is the information? What is what is my budget? What do my bills? What does my like, you know, what do my what's what does my Google, you know, search numbers say like that's actually working, not you know, what feels the most exciting. So there's there's a balance there for sure, but um there's a yeah, there, there's a lot of power um in the in the five um that I've that I kind of lean into. And and when sometimes though, all the options that are available or that I want to be available as a type seven, all the exciting things and ideas, and I can just kind of turn into the Tasmanian devil with ideas and things, adventures. And then it's just so overwhelming that I'm like, I'm not looking at my phone for the next three days. And I completely, you know, disappear. So it's kind of to your point. Um, so you know, that that is also kind of interesting to think about and something to reflect on if you're not a a four or five or nine, just to think, oh, do my do my types touch this in one of these three types and what what might I need to, what could I take away for, you know, the betterment, my my growth from one of these types.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

Yeah. And really quickly, I just want to take a moment as I'm as you were chatting, I was also thinking about um the terminology that we're using. So I know we're using the terminology um that's borrowed from the awareness to action when we say maladaptive and maladaptive. Because I know this might be some folks are going, what are they talking about? So just quickly with that, is that we choose to use that terminology versus what you may hear in the place of that is healthy, unhealthy. Um and so we operate from a framework of we're not doctors and and we don't want to pretend like we are. So we won't we don't want to diagnose someone as healthy or unhealthy. Um and if you do that, we're not we're not chaining you, blaming you, or anything like that. Is it that we've made a conscious choice not to use that terminology, um, at least not to intentionally use that terminology. I know sometimes it it does come out, um, but from an intentional standpoint, we choose to use adaptive, maladaptive. So I just want I just wanted to give a call out to that.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, I I think that's important. Um, because uh you're right. Like we don't know the healthy versus unhealthy. And also I I like it because it's kind of it it makes it seem like, well, it's the same, it's the same energy. There's just an intention behind it. So you can use it this way or you can use it this way, maladaptive, adaptive versus healthy versus unhealthy. I don't know, it feels like I don't know, like there's like something wrong. Yeah, there's something wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:39

Right? Yeah, no, again, it's one of those things where it's like, well, can I get a shot for that? I was doing a workshop today about that, and I was I was sharing, you know, and I think we've used that same analogy because it's a great one in in the awareness action space of like you know, the hammer, right? The hammer can be used as a tool, but it also can be used as a weapon. So I so are we building with it or are we destroying with it? Oh and that's what I for me is a great framework to be like, okay, in this space, what were my intentions and then of course what was my impact? And did I destroy when I came into that space? Um, which of course if I build something, great. And if I destroy something, that means I'll probably owe some folks, you know, an apology. And so, yeah, so anyway.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

What are what are some of the um so I I I think the three of these, like this, um we've talked about, you know, adaptive and maladaptive ways that the three of these can use this in the different ways, but from a kind of co-worker chemistry team dynamic standpoint, I I always get these questions. I just got it on Monday. I had a workshop and and someone was like, Well, what are the best types? What types get along the most? What type gets along best with a nine or you know, some version of that? So are there any type of um pairings with one of these three that come to mind that work really well together and then potentially where they might have some friction?

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Anything that's a hard one because I think, first of all, with people. Um, and I think we all can get along with each other when we're in our adaptive spaces. So that's that's why it's kind of like that's a hard one. And it's like so, but with that, if I had to think um about it from that perspective, I would probably say oh, probably like five, you know, and this is going with the stereotype the stereotypical. But I would think fives and ones can really work really well together. I have ones and eights actually, when I think about that. Um what made me say that is is that being able to not necessarily tie the emotions into and bring the facts, right? So being able to be concise um when they're ready. So when five's in that adaptive space when they're sharing the things, eights are gonna love that, right? Ain't simply like, yes, thank you. Right? Thank you, thank you, once, same thing. Um, and especially if it fits into their morals and ethics and in that space. Um probably also threes, because threes, you know, we we also like data when it's gonna help us to get something done. Um so again, I and and I guess what I'm sharing is is right now we talk about get along, it's probably when we are in that adaptive space. Um I would say fours and twos, right? Because they both have that that that empathy, they're both able to dive into those feelings, um, and do all those things. So I think that it's a really good pairing, they get along really well. Um again, especially when they talk about the emotions, because they can go on into in that space forever. Um and then who did I say? Oh, nines. And so it's funny. I think everyone gets along with the nines. Oh it's seriously, because they make everyone feel good because you know they don't push against you. So whatever your thing is, it's like, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

And they can see the good stuff, even when there's some bad stuff, you know, they're they're the ones that, you know, they can be like, Yeah, I can see how that, but you know, keep this in mind too. So they make you they make you feel good. You just like, all right, I give me more nines. And I actually I've heard that a lot. And I look at I have my son, we feel has operates in this the non strategy. Um and I see just how people gravitate to him. And because he makes you know, he makes you feel good, and that's why he probably is good at what he does. He's a personal, uh, personal trainer and life coach. And people come to him and it's like, hey, right? And and they leave, like oh, D makes me feel so good. Versus, he like, uh I'm sitting there sometimes, I'm like, all right, here's the data, and here's what we're doing. And he was like, slow it down, dad. Slow it down.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Yeah, oh that is that is true. I I I see that for sure. Another pairing that um a group came up with on their own, uh, two team members, one was a four, one was a seven, and they had shared what they really appreciated about each other was you know, I think both um, both of those types specifically can struggle with the mundane and you know, snooze fest routine, uh, you know, uh structure can sometimes feel stifling. And so I think they could work really well because they don't necessarily need what's our five-step plan. It's like, oh, like we'll kind of collaborate. But to that point, then the caution is making sure there is some sort of plan to get to the the final goal or whatever that might be. Um and then another seven had said, you know, I just sometimes I just I'm not that deep. Like my my four coworker will be explaining how they feel and are so upset about something. And I'm like, oh my God, I've feel so shallow. Like I've never thought about the situation like this. But that can be really good for the seven who sometimes just wants to put a positive spin. So to your point, when we first kind of talked about this section, um, any type can get along really well, and then any type can butt heads, and it can be at any point in the day, on any day, you know, you're working well, and then your your button heads one one minute. Um, but that was a pairing. Um, something that I've heard from a one is that they love and appreciate the nine's ability to go with the flow. But sometimes they will say it's frustrating because it is so clear, like right and wrong. And then they're willing to be like, well, but you know, they weren't thinking they were having a bad day, or they, you know, there's all this context in and gray area, which ones can do, but you know, a lot of times it's they're they're a little bit more um kind of standing in conviction. This is the line. Um, and then the other one that has come up recently that we've talked about the dynamics is the five and the six, which have so many similarities. But what they had laughed about themselves around was how steady and I mean kind of robotic, but in a in a really like, hey, listen, let's not get overly worried, stressed, excited here, um, where the five's coming from. And, you know, the six also appreciates a lot of the things that the five does. So there that can be a great pairing, but if they're feeling anxious or something goes off track or not according to plan, they can get reactive, maybe a little bit more emotional, and it can feel overwhelming to the five. So then you kind of run into to a friction in that dynamic. Um, so those were just a couple that that I thought about that came up this year. Um you can do this with any pairing.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Well, exactly. No, you can. And at the same time, it's it was interesting, interesting to me. And I was I was waiting for you to say that word, which was anxious when you were talking about the five and the six. Because I was like, automatically for me, when I think about those two together, I'm thinking wow, anxiety fest is what no offense. But and um that's that's what came to mind. Um and not that they're always anxious, but there's that tendency to have that, or at least feel that when you're around them. Um and then when you're talking about the uh four and the seven, the other thing that I was thinking about that pairing is why they would get along was around that creativity. Oh and I think that's another space with that four and a seven, you know, sevens always you know, creating, and then fours love to be creative and and and unique, right? Doing things different. Oh so I I felt that's another because the differences, right? So four creating something different, and then seven saying, Oh, look, it's different.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

What is it's different? It's so fun and exciting.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

So that's that's what I was thinking when you were talking about the four and the seven, was that yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Um yeah, so and they can be, and so it's it's such a sometimes it's a blend of similar energy, and you just are really jiving because you have that similar energy, and other times you're really jiving because you're bringing two pieces of kind of different energies that really will balance out a project or a meeting or a conversation or just the you know the vibe on a team. Um and appreciating that, yes. And and um I don't think we said anything about our eights. And the only thing that we'll sometimes talk about with these and that the relationship with an eight and vice versa is um threes too, I think are probably in here, um, is that need to jump in or desire to jump into action right away. And if you're working with one of these types and you happen to be a three or an eight, or you know, maybe a seven, maybe a one, but just to appreciate the benefits sometimes of slowing down, understanding how do I feel about this? How do I think about this? Is there a way to to to approach this in a more kind of peaceful, harmonizing way rather than just bulldoze into action? Um, could be questions to reflect on for the other types as they work with our fours, our fives, and our nines.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Um, so as we kind of think about now what do we do to like what are some practical takeaways that we can do as a four, a five, or a nine to balance that withdrawing and and still be engaged. Um what do you wanna do you wanna kick it off with four?

SPEAKER_03 43:24

Sure. Um I I I call these the uh the quick stretch practice, right? Oh, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Quick stretches. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Yeah, quick stretches. So for four, I would say notice when emotions pull you away, and then how can you be grounded in action? So just understanding that. So that's the quick stretch practice that I would say for fours.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah, I think that's one of those action creates clarity could be really great. Could be a really great mantra. Um for fives who Love to observe, gather, collect information, data, and then analyze it again. Um thinking about or asking yourself, okay, how much knowledge is enough? Because you could search and search and search and analyze and collect all, I mean, forever. Um, and then also considering, and this is kind of that vulnerability piece, I think, for a five where you share something before it's complete. So to make it more collaborative. I think five fives get a reputation for being um loners, not team players. And uh this could be a really tangible way to be seen as a team player by sharing the research that you do have, the knowledge that you do have before it is entirely complete and allow others to to maybe contribute to some of that research, have have them be a part of that.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Exactly. It's interesting you said that. And I was being a little condescending earlier when you said for a five to share something before it's complete, because that is typically not something that happens in a life.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

It's not.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Oh, I'm like, oh wow, what a concept. Because you know, we share all things and we don't have to have any data. With that, what I also share for five is a good reason to do that from a series standpoint is also um it gives the team a feel of collaboration. Oh. And so if you especially if you are a five leader and you want to have that space where you're like, I want to make sure they have all the information. You know, as a five leader, and I I mean I say this to all leaders, we don't have to know everything. And it actually works in our benefit sometimes when we do pull the team in and let them share their knowledge and expertise in those spaces. So that's what I would add on to that piece. I really I really like that.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

Um and then nines. Um and I think this is said a lot to nines, so it may not seem like something they haven't heard before, but again, like I said, sometimes some things can seem like common knowledge, but is it commonly practiced? So a quick, quick stretch practice for nines, I would say is speak up before consensus is reached. Right? So don't just sit back and wait for consensus to happen and then say, yes, I agree. But actually, you know, let us hear your thoughts, um, your feelings and your concerns before consensus is made.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Yeah. And and I think sometimes um one thing that feels good to to even me sometimes, you know, I'm you know, don't want to rock the boat, don't want to say something to upset somebody, but just say, you know, uh obviously I don't have the full picture maybe right now. I'm open to changing my mind, but at this moment, you know, three o'clock on a Thursday, um, this is where I'm at. No, even you know, that that I think gives you the nine or any of us who might struggle with that enough of that, hey, here's what I'm thinking, so so others know you're engaged, you have an opinion, but also saying, hey, you know, I'm change my mind, you know, if if if you think I'm wrong. Um and I'm open to it.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Oh yeah, and they truly are.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

They really are.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

So yeah, so that's what I would share with that. And then it's and you were just speaking, I was like, I I hope in this episode that we've as we discuss these these styles that we've kind of touched on both sides again um the adaptive strategies of when we can truly value what they're bringing, as well as the maladaptive of how we may be feeling. And so um just in case we haven't, I maybe maybe we want to share like some reframes from the other side. Meaning, so for fours. If we're working with fours, the reframe that I would say for for those of us that work with fours is um to see that we benefit when fours go into their internal sorting process and not see that as rejection.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Right?

SPEAKER_03 48:22

They're not rejecting us, they're just saying, hey, I need to go deeper um and what's what's currently here, and then you know, that's not about us. And I think that's where that where we can get stuck as human beings, because a lot of times we love to make things about us, um even when it's not about us. And so so that's what I would say a reframe for the fours. Um from a five reframe, I would say that we should if we could recognize that the five isn't uninterested in what we're doing, they're just simply protecting their limited resources. Right. Um, and so what they're doing is saying, okay, I don't there's a lot of energy going on around here with feelings. I don't have that right now, and so I need to protect what I do have so that when I do contribute, I can contribute in an effective and meaningful way. And then with the nines, I would say the refrain would be um that we invite the nines into a space so they can use their voice and their perspective instead of assuming that their silence means agreement. Right? Because that's not true a lot of times. A lot of times their silence is just, hey, right now I don't either feel safe, comfortable, um, or whatever that may mean in that moment for me to share. So to ask ourselves, are we creating a space that they could feel comfortable to do that? Like if we want them to share, if we want to hear their voice, which I think most of the time we do, yeah, then are we creating that space for that to happen?

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah, that's a big one. Because sometimes nines will say, you know, sometimes I do have an opinion on something, but I just wonder, is is this the battle that I'm willing to have right now? And no, I don't have the energy, so sure. Smile and nod. So if we could make it not feel like they were on trial, would they be more open to sharing?

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Yeah, on trial or contention is the word that I hear a lot.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Like okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

You know?

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yes. And then um, so I have found, and I'm curious, just in your like career working with the Enneagram, I mentioned before we started, um, or and I've mentioned this on the podcast multiple times, but fours and fives um and sevens, but definitely fours and fives tend to be the least common on a team. But that doesn't mean you need to hire a four. So I just thought kind of as we close this out, ending on a high note, thinking about even if you don't have a four on your team, what is a strength that the four that maybe comes natural to them that you could borrow for your team dynamic? And the one that comes up for the four most often in in our conversations with the team is around their ability to storytell. And um, especially sales teams will who, you know, no surprise, threes, eights, sevens, um, who uh even fives, you know, here's a data packet of why you should be our buy our product. Um, and it's like, no, I love this, and some people love it more, but it's like, what's the story that we can put around that? And uh, you know, even you know, threes and eights, hey, let's just get close, let's just close it, let's push hard, let's go, you know, but what if you slowed it down and told the story about, you know, whatever, or be, you know, we're we're influence influential that way. Um, and you actually ended up getting to the sale quicker because you were so dang influential with that story. So that that's one kind of, I don't I guess you'd call it like an energy or uh uh just a tends to be natural for for fours because they are so in touch with feelings. Um, they tend to be great storytellers. Um anything come up with you? Any anything come to mind for the five? I have some thoughts, but I don't want to monopolize.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Um I would say for fives, I think as I was thinking about it, I think it's also it seems very stereotypical. But it is that fact of you make fun of you make you make fun of that, but it is them bringing that knowledge, bringing that you know, being open to doing the research. So again, someone who's gonna be there to say, okay, do we have all the data? Do we have all the facts? Do we have the things? And because it goes back to me when I think about having them on my team, uh as that three that loves to be in front of folks and sharing the things to get stuff done. Um, I love the four and I I I try to lean into that space a lot of storytelling. What I think the fours do really well with that is the authenticity that comes with the storytelling.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Um yes, authenticity. Oh, they're gonna love that.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

Yes, yes, so I think I love that piece. And then with the five, again, as I'm trying to be productive and effective and get things done, to have the facts, to have the data, then I can back up what it is that I'm saying so that it's not just a uh a a tale, right? It's not something I made up. It's like, no, there are facts tied to this. And so that's where I when I think about a team and if I was putting together, you know, uh a sales team to go out, having that four and that five in that space to me would help round me out to make sure that I'm delivering in a way that could touch upon different spaces.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Yeah. Yeah, because that's the other thing. You don't want to be too far on the other side and be like, wait a minute, what's what's where's the research behind this?

SPEAKER_03 54:35

Like what exactly what's with the data that is what's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Um, the one the one that I was thinking is kind of aligned with that in that they um because they do have the data, they're not gonna allow themselves or they're gonna try and not have the team run away with like uh big emotions and like, oh my gosh, this is the worst thing in the world. We lost this client. This is terrible. It's like, well, you know, they were not that we want to lose any client, but when we look at the list, they were only 2% of our business, or you know, whatever, whatever. So they're able to add some um just some steadiness, some rationale, because it can be really easy to like in that moment be impacted by bad news or even good news. And then you're off the charts on in a different way. But I think fives have a really um have a have a strength of being able to ground the team and steadiness and let's think through this logically, um, and not, you know, not stress ourselves out either way and just look and see what really the story is, and let we'll let the numbers tell us what that is.

unknown 55:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Um, and then for the nine, um, mine was I I it's like um so many of us, it's like, oh, this is my idea. I'm so excited about this, or this is what we should do. It's so clear, this is the right thing to do. And I do love and appreciate, um, and not that nines have the monopoly on this, but they do kind of slow the team down to bring everybody else along. Like, well, wait a minute, have we have we considered how this might impact the marketing team or the IT team who's gonna have to put this into place? What do they think? Can we get them in here and can they share some some things so that we can get a picture of this and get their buy-in because we've also asked them? And I think that that's another way to be really influential that I don't know always gets talked about. Um, but you know, building consensus, making other people feel seen and heard is incredibly you're incredibly powerful and influential when when you're using that for good, ideally.

SPEAKER_03 56:51

Yes, yes. Uh when you're using it for good. And it's interesting because for me, I I agree with what you just said. I was just thinking, in my journey, I I've actually come across a lot of nines on Teams. Um but the four and fives are the ones. Matter of fact, so what? I've been like working in the Enneagram space now for over 10 years, and I will say in that 10 years, I've only come across six um folks that operate in the style four.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:28

Um, and so and that's in my workshops. Now I I know two other fours outside, actually, three other fours outside of that. Um, but from a working standpoint, I've only come across six fours and they're very rare. Yes, that's six one was.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

They always say they like, yeah. Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

Yeah, as I was like, hey, you're the sixth one. Um, and she embraced it. She was like, Well, we are unique. Uh so yes. Um, but yeah, so that's what I was sharing. So we promised we're gonna try to stay in good times. Let's have is there anything you want to share as we close out? Any like reflection or anything like that you would like to share?

SPEAKER_00 58:12

I I love the reflection of thinking about how each of these do leverage going within. And so thinking, whether you're a four or five or nine or one of the others, just thinking, how do you retreat when you are feeling overwhelmed, when you need a moment? Do you tend to retreat into your feelings or your thoughts, or do you retreat into kind of comfort and just peace? Um, and uh thinking about that for yourself. And then as our fours, our fives, and our nines, thinking about what would it look like to lean outward more in order to um enrich, leverage, strengthen our relationships in your own leadership style.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

I'm like, oh yeah. Um, plus, you know, I I like homework. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Well, it is interesting to think about. And I I even and even me, I'm thinking, yeah, what what is my go-to style for retreating? And what does what benefits does that offer? And I think even asking a teammate could be kind of insightful. Like what how do you how do you handle this? Where do you go?

SPEAKER_03 59:34

Um, I I I know I go to I go to comfort. Um is where I go. Uh I I I do not go to Philly.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:44

Well, maybe I should. Maybe I should spend some more time there, but that's not typically where I go. Um I love it. No, that's great. And I think what I would close with is um kind of going back to what I was sharing before, which is looking at how these how these three may show up for us. And so what I would share is is retreat isn't always rejection. I think for the four, fives, and nines, what may look like rejection to us, it's actually restoration for them. And so that's what I would probably share is that retreat isn't always rejection, but it's it's for four, fives, and nines, it can actually be restoration.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

That is good. I like that. I love that word. Well, as D mentioned earlier, fours, fives, nines. If you think you got anything wrong or you have anything to add to what we said or tweak, always love hearing from you. So reach out. Um, you can drop us a note and let us know uh your feedback on this at enneagramba.com forward slash contact and just send us a little message. And then um as a reminder, companies are closing out the year. They're already, um I just booked a workshop for April 2026. So companies are already kick planning kickoff meetings. Um, this is what D and I do full time um is bring the Enneagram to groups talking about how these different dynamics show up. And um, so I'm gonna invite you to check out our options um at EnneagramMBA.com and consider bringing uh one of us out to your team, either as an end-of-year closeout kickoff uh retreat experience, or just if you're um kind of navigating a particular situation, bringing together a remote team, going through a merger. Um, I'm trying to think of some other specific examples that have come up. But yeah, we I I I'll speak. I think I can speak for us both when we say we love doing this, uh, love sharing the Enneagram. And then it's always fun to talk about how this theory that we're talking about in these episodes um ends up showing up specifically on your team. And when you have a facilitator to help lead that experience, you're able to blend theory with your specific team dynamics, and that can be really powerful, memorable, and I ideally kind of fun too.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

So yeah, I I I I share, I call it where theory meets practicality, right? And so if you're having some team dynamics, uh, you know, give us a call. And then also with that, as we think about our next episode, chime in because as threes and sevens, a lot of times we are fluid. Yeah, we're fluid. I mean it was great for these three series because we're like, we know it's a series, but you know, for our next episode, if you have some thoughts and ideas or some things that you would like us to touch upon, share those and and and uh we can build from there.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

So we might we might do something with Enneagram and Trust. We'll just give people something to bounce off of. So there's there can be something there. So think about it. Let us know. All right, with that, listeners. Um, thanks for being here, and we'll see you in the next one.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Take care.