SPEAKER_00 0:00

I believe that as a founder or really anybody within a leadership position in a company, you have this unique opportunity to learn about yourself while you're building a company because you get to see the company like kind of mirror you. Um and, you know, I've done all the other tests, the Myers Briggs of the world, and they don't really like get to who are you at your core.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

You're listening to the Enneagram at Work Podcast, a show about understanding people at work, including yourself. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, and I'm looking forward to diving into this week's episode with you. Today's conversation is so special. It was really such an honor, really interesting. And I think you're also going to find it inspiring for a couple of reasons. One of which is we are talking to a company you probably have heard of before, maybe are even a customer of ButcherBox. And ButcherBox is an organization that is using the Enneagram, has introduced and embedded the Enneagram framework and the language company wide. So they are really using it from the onboarding process to managers. And we're going to hear more about how they do that. But I'm excited for you to hear about how an organization, a 200-person organization, has brought in the Enneagram. And then secondly, the information that we're hearing today is coming from the top leadership. We have two guests today, one of which is the CEO and founder of ButcherBox, Mike Selgeiro. He has been on the forefront of the claims-based meat movement since founding ButcherBox in 2015 when he discovered that 100% grass-fed beef was really hard to find here in the U.S., he built ButcherBox into the leading direct-to-consumer meat brand by making high-quality meat more accessible to everybody while also putting an emphasis on animal welfare, the environment, and supporting farmers and fishermen. ButcherBox is B Corporation certified, signaling the brand's commitment to using its business as a force for good. And in 2020, Mike was named an entrepreneur of the year national award winner by Ernst Young. Mike holds an MBA in entrepreneurship from Babson College, and he is in Cambridge with his wife and three daughters. Eliza Jackson is our other guest today, who is the Chief People Officer at ButcherBox. She is responsible for driving operational excellence. She oversees all aspects of the employee experiments, including talent and recruitment, human resources, learning and development, and culture systems, while also driving organizational effectiveness and new initiatives. Prior to joining ButcherBox, Eliza served as the associate chief operating and founding director of operations for uncommon schools. And she earned her doctorate and master's degree focused in education leadership from Teachers College of Columbia University. And I wanted to be sure that we shared their bios just to let you know the caliber of guests that we have today joining us talking about the Enneagram and how they are specifically using it inside of their organization. So without further ado, uh let's jump into the the episode. So Mike, Eliza, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Let me ask you this because I I kind of uh shared this in the in the intro. Mike, what would you be willing to share what type you most resonate with?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Sure. Yeah, I am a seven with an eight wing.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Okay. And we're gonna talk a little bit about how that shows up for you. So just for the listeners, though. And then um Eliza, what about you?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

I'm a two with a three wing.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Okay. All right. Now let me ask you this. There are so many assessments out there in this day and age, especially. We got, you know, kind of the tried and true disc, Myers, Briggs, Strength Finder. What drew you to the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah. So um I believe that as a founder or really anybody within a leadership position in a company, you have this unique opportunity to um like learn about yourself while you're building a company because you get to see the company like kind of mirror you. Um and, you know, I've done all the other tests, the Myers Briggs of the world, and they don't really like get to who are you at your core or like who are you at your soul. It's a lot of like, how do you show up at work? Uh, and for me, and my philosophy on business and my philosophy on on people um is is more about understanding who you are as a human and how you tick. Uh, and as I call it in Enneagram, like the snake in your head, and like what's the language of that snake and how does it talk to you? Because it's different for everybody. But helping people see that first and foremost for themselves and then see that as like how does it show up at work uh was a lot more important to me than like what's your work style, which um is interesting, but I don't think is as meaningful.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Yeah, I I always appreciate how it can give some insight on behaviors, but it to your point, it goes deeper than that. And I like the the snake in your head analogy. So, Eliza, what were so you are coming to us from the HR world. Um, and I know that you have a lot of education, um, your own kind of how to work with people, how to understand people. What was your initial thoughts when you were introduced to the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah. I think Enneagram, to me, I mean, to Mike's point, there's so many different tests out there. Um, and had done, had used DISC and some others um in a past life and felt like one, they were they could be a bit surface level. Um, and second, there wasn't great commonality of language. So one of the things that I've really loved about Enneagram, in addition to the fact that I think it helps you go deeper from an identity exploration, is that it gives our employees common language to talk to each other that's easy to use and pretty sticky. And so we've just found that the adoption of Enneagram is um so much easier than some of the other assessments that I've used in the past. Uh, if you spend any time in our office and you walk around, you can hear people referencing their type and saying, like, oh, I showed up in this way in this meeting because someone's has an eight and I'm a two. Um, so I think the adoption has just felt really um easy and clean.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

I love that. Common language is something I hear a lot of others say as well. Um, so now we had met last year and I was able to come out for I think it was just an hour at your company retreat. But prior to that, we had had a meeting and Mike had shared how you had rolled this out months, years, potentially even beforehand. Would you share a little bit about how you introduced the the Enneagram to your group? What did you do? I know that there were some small group activities involved. Anything anything that you can share? I would love to hear about.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Okay, so I mean, just tactically for those that want to like introduce Enneagram to their company. Um, the best test that I know of is integrative nine online. Um, I think it is an amazing test. The basic version is fine, you don't need the expensive version, but it's about 60 bucks, and you just pay for people to go get tested. And what I like to say is like I don't really like the content of the packet that you receive. It's like you're a type two, and here's all this information. I send people to the Ennegram Institute, which I think has the best information online about like what does a type two mean or what does a type 7 mean. Um, and then what we would do is we'd get groups together, usually like a department, so like the marketing department, and I would teach a little bit about Enneagram, which I'm happy to talk about my philosophy of it, but I teach a little bit about Enneagram, talk about each of the types and the snake in their head, the thing that keeps them uh out of consciousness, uh the things that they're thinking about. And then we go around the room and we'd go one by one, and it's like, okay, Jeremy. What do people think that he is? Right? He vote one, two, three, and people put up their hands for like four, five, six, and he's like, Well, actually, I'm a two. People are like, Oh. And then and then they have to share how that resonates with them. Uh and it was a really great way to have like people understand each other's types. It's some of the deepest conversations I've seen here, kind of like, I'm a two, and here was my background, and here's probably how I ended up that way. Um, and uh yeah, it was like a really, really great way to build team and camaraderie. Um, that was how it was introduced into the company.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

The only other thing I'd add is we did uh you ran that executive session first that I thought was like such a great way to start. Our executive team did it, and we did like I think it was like a half day, really dug into like what does that mean for how you show up at home, how you show up at work. Um, and I felt like that was such a foundational part of building team at the highest level. And then, you know, we've done it throughout the rest of the company.

unknown 9:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Yeah. Okay. That and that makes sense. Kind of get that leadership buy-in before you start rolling it out. Um, just so the listeners kind of have a picture of the when we say roll it out to the company, um, whatever you could tell us about. I think at the time that we had talked last year, there was about 200 people at the company. Um, anything that you could share us about the size, any recent growth, any kind of culture themes that your group has?

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, we're still about 200 people. Um and uh when we say roll it out, it was essentially you go department by department. And I had decided that I wanted to teach it, like rather than bring in external resource, because Enneagram has been something I've been like very passionate about for a very long time. Took me probably like seven, seven, maybe five years of doing Enneagram myself before I was like, I should bring this into my company. Um, and so you know, it was like basically me sitting with different groups of people within the company and teaching uh my philosophy on Enneagram, what it means, and then everyone sharing their types.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

And now that we have, so now that everyone, we like we continued that. So basically, like any new employees, we do them in groups that Mike does trainings for. Um, and what's fun is at our annual summit, which is like basically our annual time that the whole company comes together and we do a trip, um, we do some Enneagram work there that you'll remember from I think last year or the year before when you uh when you came. So we did like a speaker series, and then we have folks sit um by Enneagram type at certain meals so that they can connect and kind of continue, continue learning.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Oh, I love that. I love that. Uh any specific responses or feedback from the group when you initially rolled this out? Like what what what were the teams thinking, the different departments thinking about it?

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, I mean, I think people really appreciated the um like the level, the depth of conversation, and that a company wanted like like wanted people to understand that these things about themselves. And I I've I saw people very quickly like recognizing like, oh, this isn't about how I show up at work. It's like I shared this with my spouse, and they're like, that's spot on, you know. And oh my gosh, like this is this isn't just about work, is it? It's about like my whole life, and uh um, and and of course, you had your um, you know, you're on the Enneagram, there's like a type six, which is the skeptic. And so they're like, I don't know about this, and then a type five likes to research stuff. It's like I need to read more about this before I'm gonna like buy into this. You know, everyone's playing their types, which is so fun to watch because somebody will say something that they and I'm like, Well, that's a you're a type five. That's like you you're just like straight in your pattern.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

This tracks.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah, this totally tracks. No, oh yeah, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

When as we're talking about how you rolled it out, is there any lessons learned with rolling it out, whether the initial introduction or how you bring it to new hires, that you would say, oh, we did this and we would recommend not doing it this way. Any any kind of don'ts as we're talking about rolling it out?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I'm curious if you'll have the same feeling that I do, but I think the sessions that have been most powerful have been um when there's like some relationship built with the group beforehand. Okay. Um, so that was true for the executive team. That's true for many departments. They, I mean, you might have one or two new hires, but predominantly folks have like worked together, they have some base understanding of each other. Um, and I'm remembering one session we did that was um some smaller departments together. And so they didn't all work together. Um and I think there's just like a different way to facilitate that, uh, that helps to build connection and like vulnerability faster in groups that don't have a baseline there. I don't know if that fell true. You were the facilitator, so no, that fell true.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

I mean, certainly it made it harder to do the guessing. There's like, I don't even know who this person is. Uh I I also think that like um if I'm sure your listeners are passionate about um the Enneagram, uh, you want that person to teach. Um, we tried to like have somebody on Eliza's team like roll it out, and it then it just becomes kind of like a personality test because it's like the the the person they there's so much nuance in the Enneagram. I mean, you you can spend a whole lifetime like really understanding it and what it means and how you move and all these things. And like if you don't have like if you're not pretty well steeped in that, you you should find someone else to facilitate it. Um, but you really want somebody who knows what they're talking about and who's like more of an Enneagram expert.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Absolutely. I I I love that you said that. Um and is there any area in the organization that had that you've noticed the most benefit, the biggest impact with using the Enneagram? It could be with the leadership team specifically in the feedback process. Any any specific area come to mind that's like, oh my gosh, this has really benefited us here.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah, I mean, I think certainly it was a good uh foundational piece for the executive team. We've done um a decent amount of like Lancioni work after that. And I thought having the foundation around Enneagram and doing that work first was super powerful and helped uh build vulnerability. Um, I can speak to one of my own teams as well that I think it's really helped. So for um for the folks on on my team who run learning and development outside of Enneagram, um I think having a baseline understanding of people's types in the like communication and problem solving area that we train has been hugely helpful because people are able to talk about like some of their ongoing communication dynamics that they have with coworkers and like you just use shared language. So I feel like it's been a a pretty powerful amplifier for every other session we've done outside of that. Um and then I'm curious if there are other departments that you feel like it's been I mean, as the CEO, I I find it very helpful.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I'm sure Eliza finds this helpful as well. Uh I just find it helpful to know what somebody's type is.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Because it it really does change the way that you talk to them or it can talk to them. It changes certainly changes the way they hear what you're saying. And so just to know what someone's type is is really, really helpful information um for helping somebody with their career, with their you know, career trajectory here, what they're working on, even how I'm talking to them. Um, you know, it's like uh yeah, it's uh, you know, for example, like a type three, which is the achiever, uh, and cares a lot about like how people think about them, can be really amazing workers because they will just crank and crank and crank all the time. But you have to, you can't take advantage of that. You have to remember that they're a type three, and every once in a while you have to be like, hey, you're doing a really good job. Like, thank you so much, you know, and like, and then actually what I try to do is be like, I don't think that's sunk in, like, let me try again. Like, I just you know, they try to be like, you're doing a great job, you know, because I know that they're just gonna brush it off. And what what what else can I do to achieve? And while that's great as a business leader to be like, have those people, you also want to like be able to speak to them. Um, and I think Enneagram has given me a really good, like I don't know, like I I change my language based on what I know about the other person.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

You know, Brigas, go ahead, Eliza.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

I was just gonna say, building on that, we used, I can't remember the name of the article, but there's an article um that I'm sure there are many resources like this that go through like based on your type, how do you best receive feedback? And we gave that to managers, and that was wildly powerful for them because to Mike's point, it's like, okay, I have, you know, a two. The way that I give feedback looks very different than if I have a six on my team. And so some folks who felt really stuck in the way they were communicating with some of their director ports, and like, I can't get this to land. They try a different approach, and then all of a sudden the person's like, oh yeah, that makes total sense. Um, so I think that's yeah, that's been really helpful for our, especially our newer managers.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

I love that. The three example is something that just recently, um, almost that exact same situation, came up with another group um out of their type uh specific table discussions. And the threes had said, it really means a lot when you give us feedback about how we're doing and recognize the effort. And there was an eight leader, and he said, you know, I've been really bad about that because you always do a great job. And I know you're always gonna do a great job. So I'm gonna slow down and make sure that I'm sharing that with you. And to your point, Mike, it's like I want to make sure you really hear it. Um, so I uh I really like that. Um, okay, so let's talk a little bit about your own leadership styles, if you're willing. Uh so Mike, I know as the type seven, out of curiosity, what was it about that type that made you think, okay, this is this is definitely me. What what parts of the seven are most relevant?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Uh well, I mean, the the the polite way to talk about a seven is the enthusiastic visionary. So uh at the company, I'm kind of constantly being like, we should strive for more, we should do something bigger, we should believe in something much bigger. This whole company's been built on a belief of like changing the meat industry and doing something different, right? And that's all like enthusiasm and visionary and whatnot. Uh the negative way to talk about uh the type seven is the glutton. And the glutton shows up in a number of ways, whether it's like having my fifth cup of coffee uh that day, um, or uh, you know, like whatever, overeating or just like that, that world. But also like I'm like uh I have a really hard time when I when there's a problem that I like it, I've been introduced to, I become a glutton about it. I shut out everything, I shut out my family. I'm just like, oh, I gotta solve this problem and really just go like way, way, way deep. Don't ask for help, try to do it myself. Um, and then there is like, you know, on the um the side of so the the snake in a in a seventh head, my this my words, uh the snake in the seventh's head, meaning like the thing that pulls people out of happiness and consciousness. The snake in the seventh's head is something like, um, this could be better if. Right. So it's like the company could be doing an amazing job. We hit our all our goals, we're doing really well, and I'm like, yeah, but like I'm not happy about this, this, and this. And that can make me like kind of a pain in the ass to work with. It's like I'm always gonna find something I'm not happy about. Um, and and and I'm it's not even that I'm not really happy about it. The, you know, the the the the dark side of a seven is like I don't feel comfortable being content, right? And so like um that then plays out in a way in which I'm constantly like not happy with things and pushing harder and being more visionary. And um, that can be like really hard for a company, which is why I'm really glad someone like Eliza's here to counterbalance that, because that can be really hard for a company to deal with someone who's like, we don't need to celebrate, let's just like keep going.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Yeah, yeah. Okay, let me ask you this. Um, and I know obviously not all sevens are the same. There's no way to capture humanity in that, but um I would say when I work with groups, I see the least amount of fours, fives, and sevens. And I think for sevens, a lot of times I'm working with corporations who have kind of more structured office hours, maybe a work in the office. So sometimes for the seven, um, working on the same thing kind of day in and day out can be challenging. They can absolutely do it, but it can be challenging. What advice would you have for other leaders out there or managers who have a seven on their team to help them kind of pull out the strengths that the sevens do have while also helping them kind of navigate maybe some of the blind spots like the gluttony and the you know, love for new ideas and constant need for excitement.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah. So um a seven goes to a one in stress. And a one is like if for me, it's like if you're creating a checklist, you're in your one, right? So the times where I'm like, I got a lot of stuff to do, like let me write down every single thing I'm going to do, and then like check, check, check, check, check, check, check, I'm I'm I'm in my one. And you know, if I'm honest with myself, I've been CEOing for almost 20 years. Like I spend a lot of time in one. Um, like so I I am like a seven at my core, but I'm very repressed in that I move to one or I move to eight uh because that's my wing. And so uh for any manager, I would notice like notice the moments that people are in their one. And like, you don't want to encourage people to be in their stress, but a lot of people show up at work in a stressed way. So it's kind of like help them with that. Like, oh, are you keeping a checklist? Like, cool, put this down on your checklist or something just to like play into how they may manage themselves. Um, but also like recognize that they're likely um gonna be constantly curious and constantly searching for other things. And um, I had very few people, I did have a couple jobs before I went out and became an entrepreneur. I had very few people who like harnessed my ability in that way where they're like, oh, I'm interested in this. Hey Mike, can you go figure that out? Like, I love that. Like, absolutely. No, so there are there are definitely things you can pass to a seven and get them really excited about the future. Um, but you know, I I think uh I think but well one other thing I'll say and then pass it to Eliza is um uh sevens are uh known to sometimes avoid hard conversations. Like feelings is what you're avoiding. You're avoiding feelings, you're avoiding like having somebody feel a certain way, which is why you do go to gluttony immediately. It's like, oh, I'm tired, let me drink a coffee or like eat something. Um, or I'm sad, let me, you know, go numb myself out. Uh, you have to be really careful with sevens that they're actually having the tough conversations um because they prefer not to.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Yeah. That is true. Um, Eliza, anything from your perspective on leading, managing a seven from that kind of chief people uh role.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Um, you know, I think like to to double down on what Mike said, I the seven, uh I one of my direct reports is a seven. Um and being able to figure out how to take that curiosity and replay into that and set up like learning environments where they can actually explore that and be in that space. Um, I think that's a hard thing as a manager, right? Like our our um the business context doesn't really lend itself to that, that like exploration and play. Um, and so to Mike's point, if you can give them something that's like a new idea to go on a in a rabbit hole on that they can learn a lot, something that's like cutting edge, like that definitely helps. Um, and then I remember you telling me that about the one piece, and I've noticed that a lot. Uh, and I've tried to be more cognizant, at least with my direct reports. Um, I can physically see the list when it happens with him. Like, I'll take it out as like writing it down. I'm like, oh, okay. Am I making you really anxious? So I think uh, you know, just like his sort of continued vulnerability about it helps. And then the last thing I'll say is like not specific to a seven, but just like being able to have the conversation between um co-workers around how your type and their type show up in stress, I think, is huge for the way that you work through black potential, because you know, conflict obviously can be tough depending on what the two um numbers are. And so just like having some tools in your toolbox.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Yeah, that always seems to be major light bulb moments when we get into that area of the Enneagram. Um okay, so I I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, Eliza. And I'm gonna ask what is great about working with Mike and his seven strengths, and then what is something maybe you've had to learn to work better with, navigate around?

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Sure. Um, you know, I think the piece that I appreciate most is that um as a two, and especially someone who works in operations as a two, uh, I can get very stuck in like the project or the tactical thing in front of me, or like moving the work forward. Um, and so having the balance of a seven to push thinking, typically beyond what I could imagine, is really, really good for me. Now, my gut reaction to that may at first be like, why are you ruining all these plans that I do my project plan, go away? Um, but the reality is is that almost always that means like the idea is better thought out. It like pushes my thinking far beyond what my first pass would have been. And so I think if you can, at least for me, like if I can get out of my ego a little bit on it, I know that it's gonna make the the project of the work better. Um and that you can play to the strengths, right? That like it's great if you don't have two people who are in the visionary seat because you're able to really like divide and conquer. And I think that's like often true of us. Um and then the last thing I'll say is just like I think there's a curiosity and optimism that doesn't always exist with a lot of other types, and I find that incredibly impactful for culture. Um on the hard, on the hard end, I think um, you know, it's it's tied, right? It's like my uh type is much more like wanting to work the plans, build routine, build consistency. Um, and so it can be hard to figure out uh like how to best balance a seven. Like when is it the right thing to be trying to add a bit more structure or to like not move on to the next shiny idea? And like when is that the best thing either for like the relationship or the business? And when is that too far? And I and like it's stifling the seven, like that line I find really hard. Um, because it is kind of this like continuous balance between figuring out like how do you play to the strength of the visionary, um, and how do you also like support it so you can actually make their ideas come true.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Is there any anything, Mike, that you would share with other seven leaders that would be helpful for them to A, understand about themselves and then B, communicate to the team, the company, like, hey, this these are some things, this is something to know about me uh that you might misinterpret, or uh this is really helpful when communicating with me. Any anything come to mind as a for your fellow seven leaders?

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, I think like um for one, certainly with your executive team, letting people know as they get to know you better. Like it's hard for a business leader to admit, like, I'm gonna be really excited about this for about a week and then I'm not gonna talk about it anymore. If you could either like do something about this or not, like that'd be awesome. But like that's like really hard to communicate, right? Because it oftentimes executives like uh in a CEO position, you feel like you need to be like really buttoned up, and and so you need the right people around you who are like, yes, like I I actually see that you there's there's some form of genius there, and like we will go do that thing, don't worry about it. And finding people who are like actually able to go and do some of this stuff is like pretty awesome. Um, I do think there's also like um uh making sure that you don't bring every idea, because like you know, I I know I overwhelm, and I'm like, well, what about this? And what about this? Uh, but also that's just like a fraction of the stuff that is like running through my brain, right? So it's been filtering.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

No idea. Okay, so you like so it's like it's like you you want to filter uh a fair amount for you before you you do. Uh and then I I think there's like um if you're in a leadership position or running a company, I think that there's um um this this whole idea like it would be better if uh can create a really toxic environment if you're not careful, right? And so like um, even if you tell people, like I've told people, like sometimes I forget that I'm supposed to be celebrating. Could you help me out with that? And they'll be like, hey, this is a really big moment. We should celebrate. And I'm like, I don't want to. Oh okay, yeah, that makes sense. So that you know, just letting people know that that might be a blind spot of yours is uh is pretty important as well.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Okay, and and that's a great one because I think stereotypically sevens have a reputation for being the celebrators, the all the happy. But to your point, it's like, well, it's because I'm thinking about the next thing. I'm on to the next idea, I'm into the future. So uh that's a great one. All right, Eliza, let's put you in the hot seat with your leadership style, if you don't mind. Now, what what about the two who's striving to feel connected, sometimes known as the helper? What resonates with you the most with that type? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Um I would say, so the, I mean, the people pleasing part is totally true. It's I've done a lot of work on it. Um, but I think like if we use the, I think you said the polite version. So I'll use, I'll use that version first. Um I I derive a lot of joy from helping other people, from like working closely with others. I have pretty high empathy. Um, and so makes sense in my current role that I spend a lot of time working on that. Um, and I think I that's like where I get my energy towards. Um I will say the piece around like not uh knowing your own limits, like working yourself until you're completely burned out and useless to people, spot on. Um, and then uh the other part around like going to an eight in stress. Um it's very real for me. So uh the like kind of flip between the two and the eight really resonates, which is like I can in a non in a non-integrated state, I would say I can either like not raise conflict, kind of like keep do the doing the thing, doing the thing, doing the thing until I hit my breaking point, and then I turn into an eight and it becomes like you know, controlling like it's my way or the highway. Um and so I mean, much of the the uh overview resonates with me. And I will say our CFO, uh, who is my other counterpart, is an eight. Um and he and I have done a lot of work on this together, and I think that has has really helped me to understand the flipping in me. Um, like if I'm in a state of stress. Um and so I've actually I feel like very grateful to be in partnership with someone who is my like in stress number because it's taught me a lot about um what that looks like.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

Let me ask you this real quick, because this is one of the um pairings, the two and the eight, that sometimes have the hardest time understanding one another. What would you be willing to share an example of like either an insight or a specific situation where that two-a partnership you had the Enneagram insight that was able to help you? Totally. We he would be fine with me talking with us.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Um so we had a really hard time when we first started working together because we would let's uh let's say there was like something that was sort of a tense topic for the two of us, and we would walk out of a conversation um and he would feel like, wow, that was like really great debate. Like we went back and forth, you know, like we landed at an outcome and that's awesome, and we've moved on, like had a lot of open questions and went back and forth. And I would be like near tears. Like I would be like, this person hates me, like he doesn't think I'm smart. This is never gonna work between the two of us. Like it was so brutal when we started working together. Um, and I remember probably like three or four months into us work, because we worked very closely together. Um, we had a conversation about it. And I was like, you know, I think when we get into conflict, you and I walk out of that space with a very different understanding of how that conversation went. And I feel like we should just talk about it. And so we've worked a lot on that, which is that I now understand that his line of questioning is like he that is genuinely the way that he seeks to understand. And his what will make him feel settled coming out of it is like that we have a clear plan that he understands, and that like that whole poking is like part of the way he engages in curiosity. And for me, he knows that like the relationship matters a lot, and uh like our our friendship and connection and like me doing right by him is super important. And so I think he's uh like worked hard to validate when I'm doing that. Like he'll you know, he'll text or reach out and say, like, hey, you know, in X meeting, I saw you do XYZ, like that, that was amazing. Here's why. Um, and I think it's like a good, it's a good example of if both people like know their types and are invested in their relationship, it can, it's the same relationship, but it feels completely different.

unknown 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Oh, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing. Um, and then Mike, I'm gonna ask you the same question about Eliza. So, what are some of the the strengths of the two that you see Eliza have in her current role? And then what has been something that you um maybe had to work a little harder to understand?

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yeah, so um, I'll give you a little bit of context. Um, I'm actually a week back from uh sabbatical.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Um, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Took three months off this summer and left the company in the hands of Eliza and this eight Steve. Um and so you just if you take like a big big picture, like I spend my time like vision and getting to know myself better and being with my family, and uh actually giving myself the space to like not be in my one and to just be like adventurous and enjoy life and all the things that uh life brings and really enjoy my time. Um, I could never have done that without Eliza. Uh and so like her ability, and then that that trickles into like work now, right? Like her ability to take my and and by the way, I don't want to come back and take all the stuff over because what I've realized is they're doing a better job than I did. Because I never really it never really felt good. I've been doing this for a long time, and it's never felt good that I'm like supposed to be the visionary guy and I'm supposed to like make the trains run on time. It's just like I don't like that. I don't like that part. Like it it bothers me, it makes me frustrated. Like it's I don't want to do it. And so now as I'm re-entering, it's like actually, you guys are doing a much better job than I am. So like take all the stuff, right? And again, like without that two, without the the discipline focus, without the desire to like both help people, which is really near and dear to me, like I don't want to just use people as like cogs in the machine. I want to like help build their like life and career, but you take a helpful approach and a buttoned up approach. I can't think of a better uh person than a two uh to be working with. Yes. Okay, so on the negative. We're gonna leave it at that. That's fine. Eliza's name. I I think going back to like what I said you asked before, like what's one thing, or how do you like handle other people, or what what can you reveal to other people? I oftentimes ask questions similar to Steve and his eight. Um, and I think as Eliza was saying, like sometimes those questions that are just usually coming from a place of curiosity can like trigger her hate. And then I have an eight wing as well. So it's like if she wanna go, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

He resonates like the three like we'll just battle this out until someone wins.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Yeah, we'll we all meet Nate.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Uh yeah, really.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

So yeah, it like I think um, you know, uh, I think uh and I think Eliza and I have done a much better job and are learning about like each other as we do this, but like like even today, she was like, Do you think we need to do this part so you can ask some questions? And I'm like, I I don't think so. But you know, it's fine. She's like, I think we're gonna do the part because you're definitely gonna ask what's like if we don't just go through it.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

That'll be really mad if you do it in the moment, but if we talk about it now, I'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

So there's like uh a better understanding of like what what I you know, like how I operate, how she operates.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Ah, that's awesome. It's a really good point of like that the questions come from a place of curiosity. Like, I think that's for a two, an important thing to try to hold in mind. Like, someone is not trying to derail your plan because they woke up wanting to derail your plan. They have they're like thinking about the problem in a different way, and like flexibility of thinking is important so you can meet their curiosity. But that's yeah, the eight can get kind of like I don't want that.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Yeah, well, and and um as a two who is striving to feel connected, sometimes that intensity or that questioning can feel like, oh, we're disconnected because you don't trust me or you're questioning me, or and so it it's like it's hitting a core. Um, and it's for other people, it's like, yeah, we're going, we're we're just chit-chatting, we're debating, I think is what you said. The your coworker was saying. It's like, no, I I kind of had a different experience. Yeah. Um so what is is there anything on the horizon um that's next for how you use the Enneagram? Um, any just how do you see it continuing to be used, evolve inside of ButcherBox?

SPEAKER_00 40:48

I mean, one of the things that I've been curious about, but we haven't done anything with it, is um so we took, we we we did everyone's types uh and then we plotted it on like an Enneagram, you know, on the on the chart and looked at like where people line up. So for example, like my executive team is like a bunch of sevens, a bunch of twos, and then our CFO who's an eight. Interesting, right? Which is like kind of interesting. And and I don't know enough to know how like does that mean that we don't have the right people in the room for like good, robust decision making? Or like I've heard about like head, heart, gut, like find people in each and kind of bring that to bear. But that's an area that I I I I think I think we've done a really good job of like how does how do you uh you to yourself, like how what's that relationship like, and then you to others, what's that relationship but like? But like as a collective, yeah. What what do you need to like make really great decisions and do really great work is something I'm really curious about. I don't know how to solve that, but uh it's curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Agreed. I think we this is something we also have not done anything with, but is related to it. I am curious about how it plays in with hiring. And I it's like a it's a tricky one because I think you see a lot of examples of when it's not done particularly well and it can be uh like used in a way that doesn't feel great. I think there is a place for it in hiring, and I don't exactly know what that looks like yet, but I think it would be interesting to look at that and then some of the collective team dynamics and figure out like, do you have the right group of people to solve the problems you're trying to solve? I think that could be powerful.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Um, I just had a a fellow CEO who was a type A, and he was hiring somebody for his executive team who they had him take the assessment before they brought him on officially. And he had ranked really high as an eight as well in his initial assessment. And so I don't think their conversation was like, oh, we don't need another A or oh, perfect, but it was okay. So if we're this similar, what are we gonna have? What am I willing to like work through? What sort of conversations do we need to have? And uh so to your point, it it is a little tricky, but it can be helpful knowing, okay, this is how we get off on the right foot. These are some conversations we maybe need to have first.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

So yeah, I love that idea of like an onboarding tool. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Yeah. Um, and then the team map idea is I I think just anytime you can get a visual and just to your point, you don't have to have the answers to all the questions, but just start to see what this means and start to reflect on some things. Uh, I love that. So as we start to wrap it up, um, is there any final advice, words of wisdom, words of caution that you would offer to other leaders who are thinking about bringing in a tool like the Enneagram to their organization?

SPEAKER_02 43:57

I think one of the reasons it's been so successful here. Is that we have a culture that is very heavy on coaching and identity work and self-exploration. And so I think understanding what your organization's relationship is to that kind of level of deep work is really important when you bring it in so that you can meet people where they are and to figure out like how it fits in to the larger plan of helping people evolve. And so I would say in particular, like I think the relationship between Enneagram and then people having one-on-one coaches can be really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

I I think if you're, you know, you listen to the podcast and you're like, oh, I'm really excited about launch like doing Enneagram within my organization. Um, it's really important that you start with a belief that um people are more than they are just at work. And that they're bringing their whole selves to work. It's not just about like them being a worker bee. Because if you don't believe that and you're not willing to like make space for that or like have those conversations, Enneagram's not really going to work. Enneagram is not a work style tool. Enneagram is like a what is your, you know, like who is your whole being? Who would like how are you wired? Uh, what is your software that you've been running since you were like two or three years old? And um, that's really important to uh to like be like, yeah, I agree with that. Because some people like they don't actually care. You know, it's like, no, just go do the work. Like, I don't really care like what how you feel about yourself, like I just want you to go do the work. That's not at all like our approach here. Our approach here is we believe we can get much better performance and business results as a result of like treating people like the full human beings that they are, and inviting their authenticity and inviting like all of that into the organization. And so uh I would just say, like, if you're inspired, start with the philosophy of like, I want to welcome people's whole selves to work, get that done well, and then you can help people understand what who their whole self is a little bit better.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

What great advice. I have been impressed by the whole team. Um, I've talked with Karen too, but last year when we were preparing and this the team, um, and I'm I am pretty fortunate that I don't have to work with a lot of toxic companies, because if that's the case, they're probably not bringing in the Enneagram. But um, there have been people who have said where I've, you know, made a cold call and said, I love this, but our management would use this against me. Um, and I was like, oh man, I hate to hear that. So I think it's always so inspiring when we can hear from companies like yours, leadership um styles like yours on how to, to your point, Mike, um, you know, people we are human beings having a human experience. And it's really hard to just be super robotic and very siloed all the time. And uh, of course, there's a time and a place where you just gotta kind of cut it off and focus. But um I I appreciate the culture that you all have created where your teams get to do that. So um I don't know if you're hiring, but if you're looking listeners for a place, I think Butcher Box would have a great uh culture to be a part of. So with that, is there anything else that you would like to share that haven't asked you about that would make this episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Well, I have one more thing. Um, so uh um if you like what we're talking about, yes, um, we are always hiring. So yes, please uh reach out. Um, and if you like what we're talking about uh in terms of our mission and trying to uh help people eat healthier and help animals live a better life, you can go to butcherbox.com. And uh we we've shifted boxed to over 2 million households in this country and uh are just growing a movement of people who believe that meat can be done better. Just like business can be done better, meat can be done better if you actually honor the animals and the environment and uh the farmers, and that's what we're trying to do here.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

I'm so glad you said that. I was gonna ask that at some point and then I got off track. So this that's my seven. No, that's so good. That is so great. So um, and I and I think that helps uh with the company culture to have a meaningful mission like that. So absolutely. Um please let's check that out. We'll link, we'll link those um in the show notes here with that. I know you both are very busy, especially my getting back from your sabbatical. So um I appreciate you both and uh for being so willing to share too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Thanks so much for having us.