SPEAKER_04 0:07

Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work podcast. I am one of your hosts today, founder and managing director here at Enneagram MBA. And I am joined by our co-host, which you have, if you have been listening to the podcast, you have heard from him before, Demetrius D. Parker, joining us from out of uh, I guess Denver. I was gonna say beautiful Colorado, but in the Denver area.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Um, and um, I always over-romanticize moving there and living in the mountains somewhere. Um, so um he's gonna I know it is, I know. So Dee is joining us. Um, and today we are continuing on with our co-worker chemistry series where we're matching up various types. Um, as I've said in other episodes, this is one of the most, and I'd be curious, Dee. Um, I'm gonna let you chime in here in a second, if you get this question. But I find that after people are asking the questions about kind of which type am I, this or that, like the second most common question is, well, what types are the most compatible? Or how does this type or this type work? So that is the intention behind this series. And today we are getting into the type two and the type three. And I've asked Dee specifically because he is somebody who identifies most as a type three and then has a a very important type two in his life, in addition to his professional work. So welcome, Dee. Thanks for being here for this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Always welcome. Uh happy actually to be here. So thank you. Thank you for the invite.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

Yes. Okay, so um, and and I do just want to say Dee um does a lot of leadership coaching. He does a lot of uh workshop facilitation as well. He is one of our visiting facilitators here at Enneagram MBA. And then he has his own practice where for those of you who are you have, and I'll please add to this, Dee, but DISC, other um personality tools, he is wonderful at helping you integrate the Enneagram into some of the things you're already doing.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I work with DISC, uh, 16 types, uh, click instruments, any of those other because I get it, it's like an onion, right? So all those different layers, um, and then be able to look at those along with the Enneagram and how we show up as leaders, professionals, and partners.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Okay. And and people can under understand a little bit more over at your website, trustleadershipcollective.com.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

That's correct.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Dot org, dot org.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

Oh, dot org. I'm sorry.org. Well, we'll we'll link it. We'll link it correctly in the show notes. Um, okay, so let's kick it off. I am actually going to have you not describe yourself as a type three. I'm going to share the type three and then you gut check me on it. But how just as a refresher for those of you, for for those of us who are just kind of just need a quick refresher, how would you describe the Enneagram type two?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

So type two, the striving to feel connected and appreciated. Um, I mean, I would say the core drive for those folks are to feel loved, needed, uh, genuinely valued by the people that are around them. Um, you know, that striving shows up, you know, is it warmth, uh, attentiveness, an almost instinctive move towards whatever the people around them seem to need. They have a really good ability to know what that is. Um and is not people pleasing for its own sake, you know, uh most of the time, I will say. Um it's a deep belief that relationships are the foundation of everything else, you know, and and how they're built upon. Uh again, underneath that, the other side is that fear that they are only lovable when they are useful. And uh and then without giving, without giving, they won't be chosen. So it is so that's what I was saying about that other side, where it's like, okay, um for me, working with that style, having to be careful not to get stuck in a give to get type of relationship.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Yes, yes, it is. And sometimes they're called the helper. Um and it's a little bit deeper than that, it sounds like what you're saying. It's more about I want to help so that I can be connected type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yes, yeah. I I again again, like they have a really good ability to understand what people need. Um when I'm coaching that type though, I I share, yes, there is that, but also people aren't always ready for what they need. And a lot of times people are in the space of what I want versus what I need. Oh being able to be able to discern how to bring in that need by still also hearing what people want.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh is is that help wanted? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Exactly. Do I really want to know what I need right now? Or do I just want what I want?

SPEAKER_04 5:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh okay, so and twos are such wonderful teammates. They can make really um amazing leaders, just like any type. I don't know that we always like appreciate the the strengths that they bring in the leadership space, but there are so many that they that they bring, and we we need those on our team. Um, okay, so our type three, striving to feel outstanding, um, really driven by the need to be successful. And I would say sometimes to be seen as successful, um, wanting to go far, wanting to go fast, check the goal off, check the the task off. Um very goal-oriented, very adaptable. Um, sometimes they're um, and I'll be curious if you have any real life experience or like what your real life experience with this is, Dee. Um, but sometimes they're known as the shapeshifter or the chameleon because they do have this ability to kind of meet the moment or meet the person in front of them and show up whatever that moment or person requires of them, which can be such a such a wonderful skill, very, very politically savvy, very like um organizational awareness, political networking awareness type of thing. Um, they're really good at similar to a type two. I think they they notice people, but it's more kind of reading the room as an entirety to figure out who do I need to be, what is required of me to be successful to meet my goal for this particular situation. Um and it's definitely not um, most of the time, I don't think it's it's coming from an ego place. It's just this is kind of how you're wired. This is kind of your first instinct. Um, and so kind of the story for our threes is to what Dee said about the twos. I'm valuable when I'm being useful. Threes have learned, hey, I'm valuable as long as I'm uh, you know, offering value and achieving.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Um, yeah, no, to your your question, so a lot of what you should spot on. Uh actually I would say most of what you should spot on. Um for threes working and, you know, us coming into that space and how we operate, it is a lot of wanting to bring value, um, being in a room, to your point of being able to read a room and then morph into what is needed in that space. That can be a double-edged sword for us. Uh is both a gift and a curse, depending on one, I guess how it's done. A lot of times in my work I talk about a lot of times it's not the what, but the how. And then also just who's on the other side, because some people see that as us not being genuine. Um we get, you know, a lot of folks like, ooh, I'm not sure how to interact with you because you know, in this one space, I saw you and I was with you, and you showed up like this. And in this other space, you showed up like this. Um from my perspective, and I tell but not and not in a defensive way, for me, I look at it as effective communication. Um, I was I think you know this about me. I was born and raised in DC in a hood. If I in certain spaces in the hood, if I go and I'm speaking and I'm being very articulate, I'm probably gonna get rocked. Um I'm probably not gonna leave with the Bibles that I came with. Versus if I'm there and I'm like, yo, what's up? And I'm speaking in a language where they can understand that I am from where they're from and I understand what they're going through, it's gonna be a totally different experience. And the same thing if I walk into the boardroom. If I walk into the boardroom, I'm like, yo, here we go so well. Um I mean, there may be some people who are like, I love his energy, and it's gonna be some people like that is not the way we perform here. Um, so that's the way I look at it is how can we be effective in those moments? Because to your point, we're trying to get things done. Um, and so we want to be able to honestly, in some ways, be efficient as well as effective in doing that. And typically it's being able to meet people where they are in that sense that helps that efficiency, which then helps the effectiveness.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Okay. Okay. I don't know if you've experienced this in my personal experience. I find that threes tend to have the most initial resistance or skepticism when we go into an Enneagram workshop because they're like, what does this have to do with my goals? And it's taking time away from my client work or my project. Like, how is this directly related? And I I think I think like if I had to guess, I'd say, oh, sixes are the most skeptical of, you know, just uh stereotyping, but it it's threes because of what you said I have found anyway, because it's like I'm always wanting to get to the next goal, check off the next thing. And something like an Enneagram workshop, it's like, wait a minute, how does this connect in the in the beginning? I think I think we we win most of them over by the end, but in the beginning, there's some skeptical.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

I I I would say three, sixes, eights. But all for different reasons, right? Sixes are just naturally skeptical. Eights are why did you make me come here? Um, and threes, to your point, I have other things to do. Yeah, how does this help me? And I think that's why it's easier to win threes over, probably than the other two, because for threes, it's a they then see, like, oh, I see how I can use this to be more effective. So it's you know, so I would say threes, although they may come in a little bit more with that I don't want to be here. Energy, it is so much easier to win them over because once they see how it can help them be effective and get things done, it's a buy-in.

SPEAKER_04 11:51

Then they're then they're ready. Okay, okay. Good good tip for those of us who are working with our the uh a fellow type three. Um, okay, so we're gonna talk about some of the differences um with these two. And it is interesting because I think when you just read like a short description, it's like, wow, these two are so different. But at times I see people like there are so many similarities and people sometimes struggle. Like, am I a two or am I a three? Or am I a three or am I really a two? So those those are always interesting. So there are some there are some differences, there are some um complementary differences, and then there are some similarities um that can be such a strength when the two of these are the two of these types are working together. Um, what do you see as one as one strength um in your experience?

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah, for strengths, I would say, you know, first of all, I feel like both types want to contribute um in different ways, but but one I think they both want to contribute. And I think that's a strength coming in. If you think about you're working with these these two people working together, come into a space and both wanting to contribute. Because sometimes we all know there's some folks who don't want to contribute. So they're coming into the space of like, how how can I, you know, what does this look like? How can I, you know, bring you some contribution to this space?

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yeah, and I want to be, I want to be valuable, but again, kind of a different, a different way, or maybe a little bit different definition of that that valuable, what valuable means.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Um, and then one that I think is just a very, again, very stereotypical, but you know, when we talk about, when I talk about the twos, I usually am saying something like they're very um relationship oriented first, very good at building rapport. Um, and then we have the type threes who are a little bit more task-oriented and goal-oriented. Doesn't mean either one can't be the other, but it they just kind of like initially. And so what I think can be such a powerful pairing is when the two is bringing that relationship building, rapport-building strength. And then the three is bringing the let's get it done, let's you know, hit our goals, let's make things happen. Um, and so you can both get things done and bring people along with you to being outstanding and successful.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, I I would agree with that. And I would probably only see add on, threes also just like twos, threes also want the relationship, but they want the relationships for different reasons. Um twos, that relationship is that they can be there and they can help that person, give that person what they feel like they need, right? So they can be in that space and be like, ooh, I can help them get what they need. Threes also want that relationship, but they're looking at, okay, I want this relationship so that I can understand how this person can help us move this forward.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

And they understand that they don't have the relationship, it's gonna be harder to move things forward. Like they understand you have to have that rapport, which is why that ability to shape shift morph, uh whatever term you want to use there, why that why that ability is important. Because it's like, how can I meet this person here so that they can understand? Um, or I can understand honestly where they see this going, and then we can work this together to move this forward. Because again, it's it's all about are we moving things forward?

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yes, that is always the question.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Are we doing something?

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Is something being done? Is something happening? Um, another one that I that's on our list is, and this is this is a a real conversation that that comes up. Um, because I think, again, stereotypically just knowing the surface level of a three, we think, oh wow, threes must be really influential, great, could be great salespeople because of their ability to um I also talk about threes. I don't know how you feel about this, Dee, but I also talk about threes having a little PR agency inside of them. They just have this ability to kind of position things in an outstanding way. And um, they're really great at um kind of pitching ideas, um, crafting a polished message, a compelling message. Um, we talked about their ability to deliver results. Um, so you know, that's kind of that stereotypical, like, oh yeah, you would be great in sales for this. And and that is true. And I also think that twos can be great at sales or client-facing type of work because of their ability to build relationships, like you were just talking about. Yeah, read people and really make people feel like they care. And I think it's because they do care.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah, no, it's twos to your point. Threes and twos together doing that kind of work are fantastic because twos are really good at not only reading people, but also making sure that people feel like they matter.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Um and threes threes want that, but at the same time, for threes, they put that secondary to trying to get things done. So when you have threes and twos working together in those spaces, it gives it a good balance. Um, because again, it's not something that I feel the threes will push back on as long as they can see, like, oh well, you know what, you're right. And that's gonna help us move this forward, right? So it's easier for them to again embrace that um emotional temperature.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

Uh yeah.

unknown 18:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Um, another thing that we had talked about and has come up also in real in real world conversations is um, you know, the threes are so good. This isn't about trying to make one, you know, be like the other. It's just reminding us of the strengths of each and how to dial it in so we're working well together. Um, but the threes are so goal-oriented and they do move pretty quickly. Um, I think that they have a tendency, like the leap in the net will appear type of energy. Let's just move fast. And sometimes threes could move so fast and be so focused on the goal that they lose the people that are working on the project with them, or they kind of forget to bring everybody along without no, no mal intentions, um, with just without realizing it. And I think a two just tends to be very dialed into like, okay, here's where we're going. How's everybody doing with it? How's everybody feeling? And like, let's check in.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Let's check in.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Yeah. And so that's that can be um twos can help threes kind of make sure that on our path to being outstanding, we're bringing everybody along and kind of making sure, um, just incorporating the human element into also hitting our goals. I don't know if you would add anything to that.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

I I I would say spot on. Um, twos are really good with again. I I look at balance, right? We all have oxygen. Um, however, overused, they become you know detriments um to us. And so twos help threes to remember that piece of like, yes, I want to do this. Am I moving too fast? Do I need to slow down? Who's all with me? Um, because one of the things that is stereotypical when folks think about threes, they think threes are very self-centered. Um but when threes are thinking about getting things done, they're thinking about how that's gonna actually be good for everyone.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Um and so that's what the mindset is. Like, if we do this, this is how it's gonna benefit all of us, which is why they want to get to it so quickly. Like we want to be like, okay, how can we do this so that we all can enjoy you know the fruits of this labor? Um, but to your point, sometimes we can start moving so fast that we forget this is for everyone, and then how do we bring everyone with us so that they can enjoy it? So I I will say you pretty spot on it at times from a stereotypical standpoint.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

And we do want to point that out. When we we talk about any of these, we're talking about stereotypically, right? There's always the balances, there's always the spectrum of what that can look like.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Yes, and something just for the sake of time, um, is and we haven't we don't talk about it at a lot on this podcast. I want to start doing more of it, but you we you know, we have talked about the instinctual biases, and that will also flavor the expression of each of these and and be very different, um, some being better than others. And then um it's almost like the uh almost the exact opposite sometimes of how a three can help a two be more effective. Um, because one of the um one of the overuse strengths that we'll talk about with a two is sometimes they can, because they care about people so much and are so attuned to that, um, they can get over involved. Or over worry about the relationship or the relationship piece of it and then lose sight of the goal or the task at hand. So the three can kind of help them stay.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Oh, yeah. No. That's why I say it's a good balance between the two because that's where the threes can come in and say, yes. Yes, we hear you about that relationship. To your point, unfortunately, twos can overinvest in those relationships to the point that it's starting to, you know, be detrimental to the outcomes. And so there's a threes can say, because we're outcome focused, and we're looking saying, okay, yes, we need to keep this in mind, and we do have a goal that we need to get to. Right. And and also I guess we do for anyone who's jumping in and know we're talking about this from a work perspective.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Right. And so we have goals, we have outcomes, we have results that we need to get to. And so three is having that focus. That's where we can balance off with the two and say, okay, yes, relationships matter. And so does this goal. What do we need to do to move forward? Right. And asking those questions. What do we need to need to do to move forward to get this person to be heard, felt, and met, and get to the solution.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

And get to it, yes. Okay. Um, and then kind of transitioning into potential, this is not a guaranteed, but potential points of friction, which I think um is important to talk about so that you can kind of reflect on either, oh, this is why I maybe kept keep butting heads with this person, or oh, you know what, I'm getting ready to go into a project um with this particular person. So let's kind of get ahead of it. Um, probably won't avoid it completely, but maybe minimize it or at least understand it and can repair it um easily. So, in your experience, what is one of the most common or what what's an example of where these two can kind of butt heads in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

I'll go with the segue that's easy, which is what we just talked about people versus performance. Um that's probably one of the easiest ones. Because again, we just finished kind of touching on that, which is when one is looking at, hey, putting the people first, the other one's putting performance first. Um one of the things that I think is going to be important as we talk about friction points is the reason why we're doing this work is to bring awareness. And the reason why we're trying to bring awareness is so that people can have intentionality. Right. And so with that, if I know three, and I'm working with two, and I know this is gonna be the thing, one, I can be intentional about making sure I'm keeping the people in mind as I'm trying to get performance. Um and so that intentionality I think will help with that. But that's the that's the the one that I would say is the probably top of mind right now because of where we already were speaking about.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

And that's a that's a real one, you know? Um and just something to keep in mind about yourself, and then if you do feel frustration, just understanding where that other person is kind of coming from. Um, another one that I mean, this is this is such a small thing, but can be end up turning into a big thing. And um, one of the most common conversations around this dynamic that I see is just even around sitting down for a meeting. And maybe this is a little related here, but this is maybe just a little bit more specific. Um, where the two sits down and has a tendency to want to say, like, hi, how are you? How is your weekend? How's your bike training? You know, just again, that rapport building. And then, hey, okay, I feel like we've built trust, we've built, you know, some rapport. Now we can jump into what we need. Whereas sometimes the threes will say, I just, you know, we just got to jump into it. We have a timeline, we have an agenda. Um, it's not that I don't care about you. It's just I I also care about being on time and this wasn't part of it. So there can be some frustrations, whether it's in a large meeting and the, you know, that dynamic, or it's a it's a one-on-one. And one's feeling like, I just want to connect and I feel like I'm being dismissed because we have to get started. And the other one might think, gosh, we're you're making us run behind. You're not being um aware or considerate of my time or our time. Um, and so that one I hear a lot. Um, that's so little. And so one of the things um we've talked about before is adding in, like, I think you and I have maybe even talked about this, D, like five or 10 minutes. And you do this to me because I do this and I'm not a two, where I'm like, oh, I want to talk. I want to know what what you're what's going on. And so I know there's been times where we we've done these and you've just added a little buffer in, and that makes it easy. And then we can connect and we can stay on time.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

That goes back to intentionality, right? Like, I know I'm like, okay, I'm about to leave this thing. I already know that Sarah's gonna want to start this off, and we're gonna be talking, and we're gonna, and honestly, that is a part of what I like to do as well. Like, I like to connect because again, I want to build a rapport so that we can move forward. It's just that we're doing it for different reasons.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

And so bending in that intentionality so that we can have that space and understanding what that is versus, oh, here's what I want. And that's where I think we have to be careful um in that space of when we get stuck in what we want versus um from an individual we versus the collective we, right? What are we trying to do? What do we all need? Um, and I think when threes keep that in mind, they're better at having that space to converse and connect because they understand I need this in order to move this forward. Versus twos are just it doesn't matter about whether we're using it to move it forward.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

It's like I need this, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

I need this to connect, right? I need just to feel like we are people trust, yeah. There's trust is people that one I want them to feel like they're being seen. And you know, again, threes are like, yeah, that's nice. And yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:50

So yeah, oh, that's like one of my favorite um examples. Um, and I think along the same lines is even with um email communication, you know, I think threes and eights probably maybe probably ones too, maybe fives in there too, are just more like, you know, dear, you know, dear D, or just hey D, can you can you get me the report by five?

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Can you give this to me?

SPEAKER_04 29:15

Yeah, yeah. And then the two, the nine, maybe, you know, some of the others are like, wait a minute, where's the like, hi, how are you? How's your day going? Like, there's no, it's like, are they mad at me? Um, and so even that dynamic can play out and you know, just little things like an email.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Uh, I'm just laughing because I I, you know, again, we're talking about I say, you know, it's a spectrum, right? And I I call it the growth spectrum. Um, and I remember being in that space where that is exactly how I would send messages or how I would go to someone's office and I would just walk in and be like, hey, so with the one thing, and I would get these looks. Um, and then you know, I would have conversations with people because again, we'd like to build a rapport. Um, and then folks who felt, you know, I would say safe enough to say, hey D, um, you know, you just walked to my office, no hello.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

I'm good. Thanks for asking. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah, and I go, did I do that? Um, and so I again like learned uh over the years. We're like, oh no. And it doesn't cost anything to do that, right? So I learned to be like, oh, hey, to the point where, and I won't get into this, but to the point where it has now become a part of how I show up when I work in organizations, and I will intentionally set my bag down and walk to everyone's office to say good morning, hello, before I even jump into my emails. Because I know once I jump into my emails and once I jump into work and work again in work mode, those things will not be there in the way that I want them to be there. So I intentionally make sure that you know what? Here's what I'm gonna do before I do anything else is I'm gonna make sure I connect with people because that is important. Um again, just having that intentionality live and say, this is what I'm gonna do so that this happens and make space for that.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

And I think that's just a good reminder because I think many of us listening are are still on a quest to understand, you know, am I this type or this type? I think I'm this type of this type. And it, you know, it's so easy to look at behaviors and be like, well, I do check on people. I do say, you know, hi, how are you, kind of thing, like you're saying. And so it we just like there are tendencies of each behavior, but it or of each type, but ultimately it goes to that core motive, like what you're what you're saying. I'm doing this so that exactly.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

It it is not in that sense, it's not what you're doing, it's why you're doing it. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

But why are you doing that then?

SPEAKER_04 32:02

But but why? Well, which is another point uh we have here on our list is around both types wanting and valuing being recognized, which I think most people can relate to. But again, it's for different things. And stereotypically, the two, and I see this, um, it's not about, you know, twos aren't necessarily wanting to put out bad work by any means. But I think if they had the preferences, I really want to be recognized for what I'm doing for people, how I've showed up, how I've gone above and beyond for the team, for my people. Whereas the three, that recognition is more about like my deliverables, what I accomplished, the milestones that I hit. And so I think that there could be some friction in again, just seeing it through our lens and recognizing our what we value versus recognizing what is also important to the other person.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Oh, yeah, for sure. Um tools, I say tools want to be value for their labor, but it's emotional labor. It's not necessarily the physical labor. It's, I mean, that'll come in too. Um, because again, they don't want to be taken for granted in that space, but it's really about the emotionality that was tied to it, right? I did this because of this, right? I because again, if you think about if they're doing it from a space of here's what you need, then they were doing it from a space of I'm caring for you. Right? So that natural, that natural caregiver kind of energy. Um, and so it's for them, it's a lot more that's invested in it from a heart space versus you know, a three. Yeah, we know we same thing. I want my I want my labor, but it's more of a physical labor or mental labor of the work that I put into this to get this great outcome. Um, and sometimes that that doesn't blend, right? It doesn't come together to where you know threes may not not, I won't say they don't value, but they don't acknowledge the emotional labor.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Right. So it's not that they don't value it, they just may not, you know, call it out because they don't think about it.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

Yeah. It it just, yeah, it's not they're intentionally ignoring it. It's just again, it's kind of that I love the lens analogy because it really is like the well, this is how I'm seeing it. And then somebody else is seeing it in a different way, the same thing. Um, okay. I had I have two more. And one um I we've already touched on, but I I just want to underscore, and if there's anything else you would add, because um I think this is this is a gift of the three, but twos and other types can sometimes view the three, as you mentioned in the very beginning, as inauthentic. Ums can um maybe feel, and we're talking about building trust, can maybe feel like trust is uh, you know, deteriorates a little bit when they see the threes kind of turn it on or their ability to shift and adapt. And the two might see it as, well, gosh, I don't really know who this person is, or they're inconsistent, or they're very performative. I've heard uh people say that about threes. And a three would say, interesting, you know, again, I am just getting the I'm doing what I need to do to get the job done to be effective. Um, and so I just I want to talk about, I wanted to underscore that because threes are not, you know, intentionally being deceptive or no, you know, whatever. It it's it's for these reasons.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah, I mean it's kind of I shared that in in the very beginning as we started talking chatting about this, um, about these two uh styles, um, which is exactly that. Like from a three perspective, it's how can I be most effective? Um, and if I show up like this, and that's not connecting, then that's not effective. Um and so how can I still genuinely be me, but show up this way? And it reminds me, uh I think you I think you and I have had this conversation when I was in the film business. I actually had a director once tell me after an audition, uh, he said, Hey Demetrius, uh do you mind if I give you some advice? And I was like, sure. And that's another thing about threes. Threes actually do like to grow, so we love feedback.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Uh depending on how we get it, but we we do love it. And he shared, he said, uh when you are auditioning, he said, try not to act and try to be more you, but you in this situation. And when you first said that to me, I didn't get it because I'm like, I'm an actor. Why would you tell me not to act? It's like this this doesn't make sense to me. It seems counterintuitive. I'm an actor that you don't want me to act.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Um, but then when I started looking at a lot of really good actors who repeatedly get roles, and sometimes we even say, well, they're type past, like they always play the same type of roles, it's because they're going into it a lot of times, and they're like, hey, this is me in this role. So like this is me as a cop. This is me as a so when I think about this space from that three perspective, it's kind of the same thing. It's like, oh, I'm still being me, but I'm being me with this group of professionals versus this group of professionals.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Oh. And so it's still being that authentic self, but again, able to mode to a space that can be effective from a communication standpoint. And I get it a lot, I hear a lot of times people say, uh, what's the term? Code switching.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Okay, yes, I've heard that.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Right. Uh they call it code switching. They're like, oh, you're really good at code switching. And I go, you mean I'm really good at effective communication? Because that's how I looked at it. I'm not code switching. Because it's not a thing where, in that case, when I earlier when I talked about intentionality, it's not a thing where I'm like, intentionally I'm gonna do this. It's actually a natural thing that when I'm in this space, here's how I communicate.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Like, you know, I I communicate like this here because it's effective. It gets my it gets whatever thing that I'm trying to get done, it gets it done. And and I'm good.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

Yes. Well, and I this, I know this isn't like part of the conversation today, but this is one of the biggest differences I see when people struggle between am I a three or am I an eight? Is threes are just not that eights cannot do it. Again, they absolutely can. I just think it like a three, it's just like your natural, like, who do I need to be? What's what's the situation? Who do I need to be? Whereas an eight has an initial, I think, response to just like, this is who I am, take it or leave it. And obviously they finesse that over time. And depending on the role, the culture, of course, like the corporate culture, you you have to. But um, I see that as one of the the differences, just you're thinking about how you can be more effective and and the shape shifting piece.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Yeah. I mean, you're very, you're very uh you're very nice when you should have had that eight uh comes across thinking that because the eight's simply, you know, this is who I am, take it or leave it.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

Take it or leave it. It's a you problem.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Exactly. Uh what do you say? What is it? Uh I heard this eight say, uh, I love this. He's like, this is a ish you, not an ish me.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

We don't need to give the the eight don't no more no any more ammunition, but that is a good one.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

I I know, but when I heard it, I was like, wow, I've never, I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

I mean But you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

You're not wrong.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

Um, okay. The last one I wanted to touch on before we we move on from this section, and um, and you had alluded to it was around feedback. Um, is there anything because this is also, I think anytime we're giving feedback, it's typically not comfortable. And that's when these types of things really show up in difficult conversations and uncomfortable situations. It's like when everything's going great, you know, you don't you don't really notice these as much. Um, and feedback, I think, is always a point, whether it is official feedback or just like, hey, kind of feedback. Um, I guess informal feedback. And um, you had said that the threes really have a tend to appreciate feedback. And I think um, depending on how it's delivered, and then I think the two sometimes um can struggle with feedback because it feels so personal. So do you have any additional insight on that? Um, because I know that you, you know, as a three and then working with twos or having twos in your life, like how do you navigate a feedback situation?

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Yeah, I would say the big things here is different. So threes, because we also because we love feedback and what that looks like, um and we come from that efficiency standpoint of let's get to it and talk about the thing. We have to remember twos on the other hand, remember their relationship first. Which means if you're giving two, if you're giving anyone is giving feedback to a two, remember connect before correct.

unknown 42:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Is there a relationship built? Have we have we built that and when I say relationship meaning have we built a space to where we're actually connecting with them on that emotional space first? So with empathy, are we sharing empathy first and then saying, hey, here's the thing? Um and then with three, and actually I would say I'll back up, with both of these folks, and I would say anyone, ask permission to give feedback.

SPEAKER_04 42:54

Okay, great tip.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Which is something that I don't feel a lot of folks do, right? We say, hey, I got some feedback for you, and then we just can you give us some feedback?

SPEAKER_04 43:04

Uh okay, great.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Right? Versus saying, hey, um I have some feedback for you. Um, I I talk about feedback as a gift. And so I even at times say, hey, I got I have a gift for you. Um let me know when's a good time for you to receive it. And let's talk about that. Because someone may not be in the space.

unknown 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Three, two, nine, seven, no matter what, you may not be in a space to get that feedback. And if you're not in a space, you're not gonna receive it well. Um, and so I I do talk about that. If we could see feedback as a present, whether we're given the present or receiving the present, it's a present. Um and so, but with that really, when you're giving that present to a two, have you truly you know connected with them before you tried to correct whatever the thing? And then for threes is to keep it on that understanding that when we get it, it is that professional growth and how can we use it to grow and be better so that we can be effective. When we get stuck in the efficient, because a lot of times I go to organization, they're like, we're really working on being efficient. And like, but are you working on being effective? Because sometimes efficiency can get in the way of effectiveness. Um and so when you are giving feedback to the three, think about how's it gonna help them to grow. And if you can couch it in that way where they see this is growth, um, more than likely they're even more open to taking. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 44:51

It does. I that so many good things, and I I think those of us who work with twos are gonna probably take your little slogan connect before correct. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

So with that, I want to, because you just said a word. You said my little slogan. That's my so you you you alluded to this earlier. I have a a special tool in my in my relationship space, uh, which is you know, I'll I'll share, is my wife. Um, and that is her, that is her slogan.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

That's her slogan. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

That's her slogan.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Give credit, give credit, cite our sources.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Um and it's that thing that when I get lost in my Venus, and I'm like, okay, here's the thing, here's how this could have been. She goes, really? You think you might want to connect before you correct? And I'm like, Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Let me try it again. Let me do it again.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

Okay, okay. Well, we will, yeah, we will cite D's wife on that one. Um, is there anything else communication style that we should talk about as potential friction points? The only other one that that I've seen be talked about or kind of come up in different experiences is um the the two can get kind of like emotional, very similar to an eight. Like they can, they can also have intense feelings that aren't always, you know, just warm and fuzzy. I'm gonna bring a casserole over. Like they because, and I think it comes from like I care about this, like this decision is impacting my team in a negative way. Like I'm going to get kind of emotional about this. I'm gonna have maybe a more intense reaction. And I think sometimes there's threes and ones who are a little bit more fives, probably in this category two, who like have a tendency to um just be very like rational, um, not you know, let rational.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

I call it yeah, do you think rational? Yeah, I'll say rational, logical. Um, in those spaces we talk about communication, especially when communication gets heated. Yeah, when a lot of times uh twos are arguing their emotions. Two's are arguing how they felt in that moment or how you made them feel in that moment.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Ooh, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Threes and and a lot of the rest of us are arguing, you know, um logic. Right? Here's here's the thing that was the most logical. And threes are very, unfortunately, can be can be uh in a space where we minimize the emotional content. In service to keep things moving forward. Because you're like, you know, because for from a threes perspective, we're looking at it as well, if I get stuck in this emotional space, we're not moving forward, right? So let's look at the facts, let's look at the logical, rational thing versus, and again, and it's and so it goes back to, and I found this being able to live this uh every day now for the last 17 years.

SPEAKER_04 48:20

Firsthand experience.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

I found that when I do step back away from the logic, the facts, the rationality, and tap into not live there, but tap into the emotion that's there first, it is so much easier to have the conversation because then you know, I think we all want to be seen and feel heard. When working with the two, that's how to make ensure that they feel seen and heard. And and again, not in this uh performative way, but in a true way to be like, okay. You know, because things can happen and you have to ask yourself, was that my intent? No, a lot of times it wasn't my intent, but what was the impact?

SPEAKER_03 49:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

And the impact was the impact, you're you're seeing the impact based on the emotionality that you're seeing.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Uh-huh. Right?

SPEAKER_00 49:21

That's the impact. That's that emotional temperature. And to your point, uh, for two's the more that emotional temperature is not being taken seriously, the hotter it gets.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

Okay. Okay. So good reminder. Love how you worded that. Yes. Good, good reminder. Um, and that that might be a good transition to as a three leader. We've we've covered a lot of things that I think if you are a three leader leading a two, that will be helpful. Um, is there anything else along those lines specifically to like the type three leader leading a direct report that that is a type two? Cause I think that one right there was a a great one for our three leaders to remember with the two. Um, any anything else you would add to that dynamic specifically? And we'll we'll do the vice versa here in a minute, too.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Oh, yeah. Don't give, don't give uh what I call the baton feedback to it too. Meaning, you know, this fast quick here is yours, here's the feedback. Now run your okay. Um, you know, so that passing feedback in the in the hallway. Uh, you know, now if it's if it's positive feedback, that can, but even with that, even with that, the two would prefer something a little bit more um than just that quick baton of hey, great job. Um I remember I remember getting feedback in one of my 360s that uh in the score of authentic, someone scored me uh low. And the way this report worked was if you got anything that was really low or really high, you had to give a reason. And this person shared, Well, I don't I I score Demetrius inauthentic because he always tells me that he appreciates me. And I was like, What?

SPEAKER_03 51:35

And the problem is Exactly, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:37

That's what I was thinking. I was like, look, no good deed goes unpunished, right? I had that whole, you know, all my ego response uh kicked in. But then as I continued to read, they shared. The reason why I say that is because he didn't take the he wasn't taking the time to tell me why he appreciated. He just said all the time, hey, I appreciate you. Hey, I appreciate you. And honestly, when I stepped back and thought about that, it really hit me like, oh wow, that does make sense. Like, because I'm sure they probably heard me tell other people I appreciate them. And so now it becomes this thing that seems disingenuous because it's like, oh, he just appreciates everyone.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Versus, no, I appreciate you because, and it's interesting with this person, I appreciated one of the things that I appreciated about this person is that they were typically open to give me feedback. Um versus where some people would be like, oh no, things are good. Like she wasn't one of those people, she would be like, Well, things are good, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:44

Since you asked.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

Here's this thing. Um and so anyway, so it's one of those things where you know, just seeing that, right? Like you can do something, but if it seems like it's not tailored to them, if it seems like it's something that you're just saying, it may not, it won't not, I won't say may not, it more than likely won't have the impact that you were hoping that it has, if I'm making sense with that.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

It's it does, and that makes sense because I think it's like again, trying to be efficient here in the hallway. Here, let me drop appreciate you. And um, and then it's like, well, is that actually effective? So I've I have also heard from threes that they love it when people pause and appreciate them and call out something specific for them too. Um, that was an interesting one that came up a couple months ago. Um, and I I think that one is interesting because they were saying um the leader of the this particular group was a type eight. He's like, I appreciate everything that you do. And I just kind of took it for granted because you always do a great job. So like I would always be saying, Great job, I appreciate you. Um, and I just never thought that you would want to hear, you know, great job, and and then to be specific about it. So um there's just yeah, good, good reminder, good reminder for all of us, and again, kind of different reasons. Um, is there anything um as a real as a real life type three, if you were being led by a type two, is there anything that you would add for that type two leader that we haven't already touched on? To help you, I don't know, be more effect, efficient, effective, uh move forward.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Um is one, I think, because like again, go back to the space where threes like feedback and even being more open to is sharing with the three those moments when they do show up with emotion to acknowledge that. Like, hey, by the way, thank you for doing X. Thank you, thank you for showing up and with that emotional right because then it lets us know, like, okay, it is working. I'm being better at that, I'm working on that. Um, and so I honestly I would say that's one of those spaces, and not in a condescending uh way, but in a you know, a very genuine way of saying, hey, by the way, I really appreciate it the fact that you know you've been more relational in our check-ins, or yeah, you know, this feels a lot less transactional than usual. Um, I think that would help to build that space on both sides. Because I think that for the two leader, they're gonna feel like, yes, we're connecting. I can have that conversation. And the three is gonna feel like, hey, I'm doing the work, and it's showing that I'm doing the work.

SPEAKER_04 55:54

Yes. Yes. I love that. That's such a great one. Um, because some of these things, again, we can do, but they just take a little bit more intention or practice. And then I'm sure it just makes you want to keep doing more of it when somebody is like, hey, I see you putting in the effort, putting in the practice. Um as we as we close it out, um I have a thought for a growth, um, just something to reflect on in the to to grow as a type two in this dynamic. And then I'm gonna ask if you have something for our threes, or feel free to add to the the two growth option as well. Um, and there's many things that we've talked about, and then there's many more that we haven't, but the one that I have for um the two is something that is, I don't think is just only specific in this relationship. But I think with somebody who has like that more like assertive, get, you know, just give it to me. I want to be efficient type of energy. Um giving, speaking more directly can feel for a two like you're going to ruin the connection. It's like, oh, I don't, you know, so I'm gonna give the sandwich method. I'm gonna, I'm gonna um, you know, tone this feedback down a little bit because I don't wanna, I don't want to ruin the feedback or I don't want to ruin the relationship, the connection. And so I think, especially in this situation, um, just as a two thinking, actually, if I give this difficult feedback, we might, we could end up being even more connected because now they trust me to help them, you know, perform better to get to their goal quicker, even though that would felt a little uncomfortable. Um we we can actually be connected. That difficult conversation isn't going to cause a disconnection. And I think sometimes um twos can really struggle with that because of that connection piece is so important.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Yeah, no, I spot on. I I think to add on to that, which actually will also help me segue into three, is something that I'll share for everyone altogether, which is asking, have you ever asked people how do they like feedback? Right. So no matter if it's your peer, no matter if it's your staff member, no matter if it's your leader, um, have you asked people how do they like feedback? A lot of times when I do like my feedback workshops, all in my leadership workshops, I am amazed about how many people have never asked that question. Never asked that question. Like, what? Like, oh I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Like, because everyone likes it different. So asking people how do you like it so that when you do give it, you've given it in a way that is going to be most effective for them.

SPEAKER_03 58:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Um which leads me to my part, which you know, from a three perspective of practicing, noticing what people are contributing before you measure what they're producing. So really understanding if they did this, even if they didn't do it well, how much did they really contribute to be in this space? What did that take for them? Um because we can the emotional piece is not something that everyone has. The producing piece is specifically a skill. Those things we can teach a lot easier. And we can, you know, say, hey, here's what was missing, here's how we could do this better. But when they're coming in there and you've seen that they really gave them all, although they may not have produced the outcome that you wanted, but you saw they really worked, to be able to touch on that first. Like, wow, I appreciate how hard you worked on this.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

You know, and understanding that and and getting away from our mindset of, well, that's what they're supposed to do, that's what we hired them.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Like I I pay them five percent. Right, I pay them. Like that's enough. Right? And you're like, no. It's like yes and, right? So not no, but yes, and yes, and um, so I think that shift alone will change the relationship. Um, if you can, if folks in that free space can just look at the contribution as well as the result.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:15

Such a good reminder. Okay, those were good. Um, I have so many notes that I took myself, and this is why I love, even though you know, we've we talk, we do these, I still always learn things from you. So thank you for everything that you shared. Um, any any final words about this specific dynamic that we haven't already covered to make this episode feel complete?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

I would, if I could give uh three reflection questions, because I don't know if folks can walk away with questions, right? Is uh what did I learn about myself today? Uh who came to mind while listening to this episode? Like, did anyone come to mind that you're like, ooh, gotta send this to them or gotta and not and not in a judgment way, um, but just in a way that, like, who? Okay. And then what is one conversation or action that I will take this week because of this episode?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:10

So good.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

Because we all know awareness without action is just information.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:16

Yeah. So yes, and just practice. And I think, you know, a really easy one could just be how do you like to be appreciated? You know, to your point. That's a very and um I think uh not every three loves to be called on stage, but it's like, oh, I you don't like my name. I appreciate my name in the newsletter. Like, I thought everybody likes this. And then you hear from others, and it's like, actually, like, I would just love it if we had a private conversation and you're like, so you know just have just even that little, but those are some such good questions. I always learned so much. Thank you. Again, um, Dee does wonderful work. I mean, you can hear him already with um groups, specifically with leaders, um, all different tools, and you can learn more about him at trustleadershipcollective.org. Um, and with that, I'm sure we'll talk to you again in the future. We'll we'll do have to do another three matchup with you. Um, thanks for being here, D.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

Of course. Anytime. Always great to be in your presence. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:22

We'll see you, we'll see you every in the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

All right, continue the good work.

unknown 1:02:26

Yeah.