SPEAKER_03 0:08

All right. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work podcast. I am your host, Sarah Wallace, part of the Enneagram MBA team. And today is a fun episode because I have a guest, and I well, I actually have two guests. And so we're going to get some real-world experience, which is always really fun to hear somebody else's take on things and to hear how they experience the different types. And today we are going to be matching up the coworker chemistry of the type one, Striving to Feel Perfect, and the Enneagram type four, Striving to Feel Unique. And we're going to talk a little bit more about what that means. But to help us have this conversation today, I have one of my guests, Lee Fields, who is a coach, a teacher, and an Enneagram consultant who is certified across all kinds of schools. She, I mean, this is kind of impressive. She serves on the board of the International Enneagram Association for the Southeast chapter as the vice president. She uh, you guys hear me talk about the awareness to action. I don't know if I don't know if Mario would like this, but I call him my Enneagram dad. So I don't know if Lee is my Enneagram sister. I don't know. But Lee serves on the faculty with Awareness to Action International. And she recently has co-founded the analog Enneagram with our fellow guest today, Seth Creekmore. And she's teaching, she's writing an inner work field guide, tending a creative Enneagram community online. And I don't think she'll mind me saying this, is a fellow cat mom. So, Lee, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

And all true. And we're gonna get into this. Lee is representing our Enneagram type one today. So we're gonna hear a little bit more from her on what that means. And then our other guest today is Seth Creekmore, otherwise known as Creek, who is also a coach, a podcast producer. I was just telling him how nervous I was to have him on the show because this is this is what he does a lot of. Um, and he's a musician. So he is the co-creator, co-host, and a producer of multiple Enneagram podcasts, including Fathoms, which we have talked about on this show before, um Awareness to Action Podcast and the International Enneagram Associations podcast. So he has a lot of podcast Enneagram experience. And then his work through the liminal practice and analog Enneagram focuses on helping thoughtful people slow down, notice what's actually happening, and respond with greater care and intentionality. And as a type seven, that is a lot of the work that I try to do myself. So Creek, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Thank you. All of that is mostly true.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

And okay. And Creek is representing our Enneagram type for today, striving to feel unique. And we're gonna talk about what that means. So the majority of this conversation, I really am interested in kind of the compatibility or the relationship dynamics with these two specific types. Obviously, your we're gonna talk about your specific dynamic. And then if if you see anything else in out in the world or in theory, I'd love to hear about too. And it's gonna be different for everybody, but we're gonna just talk about some potential things, some similarities that this dynamic might, the strengths that they might have, and then some potential friction points. Before we do that, though, as always with this type of episode, um we just kind of talk about a refresher on the type. And I'm actually going to have Creek describe the Enneagram type one, if you don't mind Creek.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Whoa, okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

I know. Well, sometimes it's curveball. I know. Sometimes it's hard to talk about yourself. And then I just thought it would be kind of fun uh to switch it around.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, okay. Wow. Um, so Enneagram type one, striving to feel perfect. Um uh ones, I'll just talk about my personal experience with some of the ones in my life, right? I think that's that's much easier than trying to paint a stereotype. Um, so we we can insert the human into uh into this type. So um so the ones in my life, right? Uh often um there's always a little bit of uh come and go as far as our interactions. I'm I'm never always quite sure where I stand in the beginning of the relationships. Because I think we're both kind of sussing each other out, and that's maybe a dynamic between the four and the one a little bit of uh what what can I trust? Um, and what's what's going on? Um, but we quickly, um, especially with the ones in my life, we bond over, I mean, the aesthetics, the the beautiful things, the things that are ordered wonderfully, um, and how good it makes us feel. Um, I see the ones in my life, um, they're actually quite funny. Um, they they can come across as um, you know, sometimes sticks sticks in the mud. Um, but their their dark sense of humor just really speaks to me. Um and because they see everything that's wrong with the world, they gotta figure out how to laugh at it. Um so there's and there's like a little um you can kind of see sometimes you can see ones be a little bashful when they when they make an aughty joke or uh or an inappropriate joke. And that's just my favorite thing. Because once I start, once we start down that road, I just I just love watching a one kind of come alive in that sort of space. Um a little unconventional way of uh of describing a one, but I wouldn't expect anything different, um yeah, but you know, obviously very, very ordered, very principled people. Um they of course think they know what is right or feel that they know what is right to do. And um I think in kind of their best sort of ways, um they want to see people succeed. They want people to, they want to re-help reduce friction in people's lives. Um and when they see something that's wrong, they're like, well, let me help you fix it. Let me let me make sure you see it, and then let me help you fix it. And um that can be a wonderful gift and a bit of a thorn in the side sometimes. Um but uh that's you know, that's that's another story.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Um so okay, and I have I have a follow-up question.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

And this was inspired by uh your website. I liked how you kind of shared what each other has to say about one another. And so my question for you is what is one of your favorite things about Lee that kind of that you see many type other type ones have? Like what what about that type one energy do you appreciate and see in Lee?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I I I think it's like kind of this level of opinion, courage about their opinions, um that I know that I can trust, that I never have to guess where they're at, what they think about me, what they think about a situation. If I ask them, there there's a there's a almost a moral uprising, uh a necessity to say what they actually think. Um and that's something that I really appreciate. And you know, it's uh the good ones, we have a very spirited debate about the things that we disagree about. And it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Yeah, oh that's a good one. I I I uh I second that. That's a great one.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Um, all right, Lee, let me ask you for those of us just we're gonna get it kind of a refresher. How do you describe the type four? And you can do it in whatever way you want to, striving to feel unique.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Um I'll start by saying that several of the most important people in my life are fours. So I have a deep appreciation for four-ness. And I would be remiss if I said anything like they're all the same. Uh there's very little uh in the connective tissue of what four essentially is, except they're all uh discreetly and distinctly um themselves, sort of around a core of some values that I think are really I I see threads of the values um between the fours that I know and in that striving to find um Creek mentioned aesthetics uh being a place where we have some crossover in the Venn diagram of ourselves, right? And I feel like that's so true. Um but with Creek and with other fours I know there's always another layer of uh beauty or aesthetic or vibe to kind of dig into. And without help, I wouldn't look deeper. And I think that excavating to another level and another level and trusting that there's a myriad more underneath it is something that all fours I know if not are gifted at, at least are attuned to. Um and Creek, of course, is gifted at it.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

All right. Well, and and it's okay if that is if that's your thing. Is there anything that you would add about Creek's four-ness that you appreciate in addition to that?

SPEAKER_02 10:09

I I it it's I mean, we're only gonna record for like 40-something minutes. I can't, I can't just list everything. I can't go to the bullet points um of uh Creek.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

He knows I'm skittish about positive uh affirmations.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

I also, yeah, I was gonna say, Sarah, also there's a rule that I have to give something negative with every positive to count. Um you can guess whether it's his rule or my rule or whether we agreed to it. Um But um I think one of the things that uh Creek really brings to the table consistently, and I've seen it in other areas as well as in our friendship and our professional relationship, is um standing his ground and pushing with difficult questions. Um and uh challenging, not for the sake of challenging um or for being contrary, but to um expand what's being talked about to a truer version of what is, you know, just a deeper a deeper look.

SPEAKER_03 11:20

Yeah, yeah. It sounds like there it I think whenever people initially hear about the two, the one and the the four, or you read about it and just some of the you know Enneagram literature, they've seen like such opposites. Um, like how could you resonate with both of them? But when you kind of get into it, you you there is some of that overlap. And I'm hearing like truth for both of those and and honesty, even though it may not be what you want to hear. Um, and so that and that is one that I that I see as a kind of a common thread between those two. Um, you know, I just have to say something funny, Lee. You said you got to say something negative to Krieg. I have a friend who I who uh I was talking to about this podcast episode who is a type four, and she just got a new, she just got a new job offer literally yesterday. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. Congratulations. I'm so happy for you. And she said, she wrote back and said, Thanks. I think I'm gonna need a few days um to to process it in order to feel happy about it. And I'm like ready to celebrate. I'm like, we should toast a virtual toast tonight. She said, I need I need some time. I just, I just can't believe it yet. She said, Why am I like this?

SPEAKER_00 12:42

That's not resonate.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Oh yeah. So um I do before we get into them the matchup specifically, something that we're going to be talking more about and threading more into our conversations is the dimension of the Enneagram specific to the awareness to action framework where we have the instinctual biases. And I'm kind of curious, um, as somebody who identifies Creek as striving to feel unique as that type four, you uh really feel the navigating instinctual bias. How does that influence how you express or how that type four is expressed in work and life, however you want to answer that? And then Lee, I'm gonna ask you the same thing with your transmitting instinctual bias, how that overlays with the type one.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Yeah, I so I think it's really interesting um because in my Enneagram journey, like four was was like painfully apparent rather quickly. Okay. Um, and I went through the first like half of my Enneagram life thinking I was self-preservation, and then met Mario, and as he tends to do, uh points out how we're not seeing ourselves as clearly as we think we are. Um and he's like, I think you're navigating. And of course, I had to push on it because that's what I do, and eventually kind of You don't know me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Um and and just I realizing that I was attached to certain um things about the self-preservation, that I was like, no, like I'm I am good at this. I I do these things really well. So that's that's not what he's saying. It's more again, um, as some of your listeners may know, like it's more about the relationship to these dumb money. It's not necessarily if if you're not that thing, you can't do that thing. You're not good at that thing. Um so I think as I kind of started to relax into noticing how I pay attention to the social dynamics, to who I have in my uh my contact app on my phone. Um whenever I get a new number, it's I always put relevant information in the notes section where it's like, here's here's like who who how did I get to know them? Where do they live? Uh what do they do? Not just as a selfish thing of like, hey, I might need your help someday, but also as like, hey, someone reaches out to me, he's like, hey, looking for a photographer. I'm like, cool, photographer, in my phone, all my photographers show up, and then I can go from there. Um so I and I I think how navigating shows up for me is um is really just a lot of connecting people, um, and it's a lot of trying to uh survey the the field of what's happening that no one is clocking, um, and trying to understand how do I leverage those things to make this environment, this team, um this concept uh more accessible and at less less friction. How do I kind of shape this this dynamic, this vibe towards something that feels better to me? Um, which, you know, feels selfish on the surface, but we're all doing it.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Um, and it's it's another way of saying it, I suppose, is how how do I want to um use my gift to shape the environment towards something more beautiful? Um so yeah. Did that did that answer the question sometimes? Like you're on a roll and I forget what the question was originally.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

So that was good. And you know, I was just even thinking kind of how both the four that uh what Lee said about your ability to kind of go deep and then that navigating energy. I'm just kind of curious how you see that um be beneficial. Obviously it's beneficial, but how do you see it be beneficial in things like all the podcast hosting and producing?

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, the ironic thing, I any of my friends that that knew me prior to you know my 20s are just stunned that I am in podcasting. Because like most people didn't know I spoke until I was out of high school. Um, just very quiet, introverted fella. And uh so I I think in the podcasting realm, it I'm able to uh I've developed a skill for interviewing um that I think we can have a structure and we can plan, but then being able to read what things are not being said and poke on those, um, be able to challenge ideas in a way that's that's welcoming um and and seeking truth and beauty together instead of um adversarial. Uh and I think I think that's a that's a skill that kind of has come with time, but it also I'm incentivized to it because I don't want the person I'm interviewing to feel dumb or attacked or anything, right? I want to stay in good standing. Um so finding the ways to um create an interesting conversation that is compelling. Um I I see the four and the navigating working together in that.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Yeah. And I would say I I see that um I see that in the friend that I mentioned. And I could see this. I now I don't run into many, which I always say they that they probably love fours in a lot of the environments that I work in. Um, but they do uh bring those, like you said, poke poke a little bit more at the like ask some questions. And I think that is obviously valuable as a podcast interviewer and host, but also, you know, on a team asking some questions that nobody else is is necessarily thinking of. And I appreciate that so much because I just I see something and I'm thinking this is it. And then I'll have my friend who is a type four, also navigating type four, say something and I think, oh my gosh, I never thought about it. I like did not even cross my mind. And so it can be so um beneficial for guests on a podcast or your teammates um in the in the conference room.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

So I I collaborate with a couple different media teams um when it comes to podcasting. And that's I do find myself often in that role of we're trying to deal with a difficult client or something like that. And I'm the one that's sent in to first. It's like, well, we shouldn't do that because this is we need to we need to discover more data before we make an assumption about what needs to happen or what their motivation is and all this other stuff. And I I do think that that is something that I consistently bring to a group or a team is like taking a pause and uh trying to understand more about the context of that decision instead of just looking at the decision and then reacting to it.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Well said.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

Lee, I'm gonna ask you how do you see your type one being influenced with that transmitting energy?

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Um yeah, fairly significantly. I have I have um like three things I want to say about what Creek said right now, which is part of how transmitting is impacting my one energy. Um that's part of it. It's like I think that uh all of us can fall into in the Enneagram world, all of us can fall into sort of stereotypes of what a type is or isn't. And I think that one of the uh really useful parts about the instinctual bias um uh model working in tandem with the type strategies is seeing uh uh more nuance to human beings and how they are and what their values are and how that's expressing. And uh again, it can complexify things, but if you keep it at its sort of simplest bit, it can be so useful because um a stereotypical one, if you're gonna believe Instagram about what a one is, all we care about are loading dishwashers and tending to our succulent gardens.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Color coding your closet, right, bullet proper uses of a semicolon.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Right. Um okay, that one?

unknown 21:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

You got her, you hit a nerve. Important, but uh but the truth is and this is um again, speaking about myself personally as a human being going through life with a one strategy. Um I have learned that I really do care about the rules that I think are important. And the other ones I do not care about. Um but I still think I'm doing the right thing. You know? And um so part of how I see transmitting uh working with my type strategy is that I'm more comfortable with that dissonance than I think some people would be. Um I'm not focusing all of my attention on just myself or just myself and my nest, or or you know, I can laser focus my attention on this situation or that situation. And in in awareness to action language, it's sort of broadcasting and narrow casting. I can see big picture and spotlight, big picture and spotlight, and I can pick out what's wrong with all of those and decide what I think matters, you know.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Let me ask you this, Lee, just because this comes up so often, and I don't want this to turn into a typing episode, but what you just described is very similar to a type eight. Um how they kind of believe, you know, what's right wrong. Uh, and a lot of how how do you describe that difference?

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Between a type eight and a type one.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Um for me, there's sort of a uh sort of a somatic difference between them. Uh if if eight is striving to feel powerful, then there's a certain amount of energy that's there. Um I don't know for me, there's a difference between right and wrong with type ones that don't necessarily come onto the screen of awareness of an eight in the same way. Um it's my way or not my way. Uh-huh. Um, whereas I am describing that's true of how I make decisions, but that's a lot of work to figure out that's true of how I make decisions. For most of my life, I was doing the right way. And there was one, and I knew it. It wasn't my way, it was the way. Yeah. And for the type 8 that I know and work closest with, um, I see less of a concern with the right way. Um, and it's more I'm putting my energy behind what I think is right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Thank you. I know I kind of put you, it does. I kind of put you on the spot, but that is something because I'm assuming there's probably going to be some people listening to this who are like, am I an eight or am I a one? Um, that just tends to be one of those um kind of more there are some similarities. And so for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Um, and I think that there are similarities between all of us as humans, right? Yeah. Like you could describe things about seven-ness, and I can be like, yeah, I see that, but you know, I relate to that. Um, but it really comes down to what we do most of the time, um, and the pattern we fall into most of the time. And most of the time, I feel like I'm much more frustrated by not being able to change things uh than I think a more typical eight would. They'd either change it or quit. Okay. Okay.

unknown 25:47

You know.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

That's helpful. Thank you. Thank you. I think that I think other people are gonna be uh that's gonna be helpful for others too. All right. Let me let me ask you this. So um again, obviously there's no way to distill humanity down to nine types or 27 with the instinctual biases. Um, but there are um tendencies, there's some commonalities. And so I will always say this is the disclaimer, this is not 100% true 100% of the time. Uh, but these are things maybe to ponder on, to look at, to reflect on. Um, when we have an a one and a four paired together, such as the two of you, um, for example, um, what are what are some compliments that you bring to one another, or what are some additional similarities? What what ultimately are the strengths of two people who are, you know, who have this this type one strategy and this type four strategy that they're bringing to a conversation, a project. Lee.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Um well I would I would go back to go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

I was gonna say uh one of one of them is Lee already knows her opinion about something. I need to I need some time to chew on it.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

So that's right. Kick the ball to Lee, where can think for a second.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

All I can think.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Well, for those of you, for those of you who are listening, which is probably most people, Lee raised her hand immediately.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

And I was like, okay, Lee, yes. And Creek muted himself.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Um, I'm gonna go back to something, Sarah, that you said um at the top of the conversation, um, in a way that I think fours and ones are sort of cousins. And that has to do with um the fours seeking authenticity and uh ones being sort of integrity junkies. Uh and I think those are related uh and complementary in a way. Um if you weren't carefully defining your terms, there could be crossover, right? Of of truth. You know, and at least seeking for that. Like what's the truest thing? What's the best we can do? There's a an idealism um and a purposefulness uh that's very satisfying. Um when I work with Creek, I feel like I'm doing work that matters, um, work that will help people live better um in their real lives, not just in a fantasy world, but um and that's gratifying work to do, you know. And I think there's also with the integrity piece um a trust that just speaking personally, um there's a trust that I can mess up and it's an okay, safe place to do that. And that because of that trust, I can hear criticism as constructive uh as opposed to something that I need to be defensive about. It's it comes with care. It's like I'm saying this because I love you, but you need to hear it, you know. And that's um that's just that's not valuable, it's invaluable. It's priceless. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

I'll I'll add on to that um as I normally do. I I think, and not to get well, you know, I'm gonna get a little phil philosophical here.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Um stunner.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

So I as we've been talking about, you know, beauty and truth, it made me think of um Dostoevsky and Kant both talking about beauty and truth, you know, like beauty will save the world, or uh Kant said, um beauty as a moral statement. And when and I think that's that's a representation of those of that line where Kant was talking about how when we see something beautiful, it's it's kind of a similar reaction as something moral. We just we have we have something, we feel something in our bones that this is beautiful. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

This is full of this is beautiful, and this or or this is this is good, this is right. And so there's there's some sort of interaction there that um gives us a sense of belonging to the earth, a sense of um uh involvement, um, witnessing something that is larger than ourselves, but we can still interact with and admire, aspire to, all of those sort of things. And I think that um that's just something, and you know, on on one hand, a lot of of Lee Lee and I's conversations, we bond over our frustration over how things are not as they should be. Um, and we'll we'll have sessions where we're just going on and on about the ridiculousness or the the idiocy of that thing or that or that person or whatever. And um, and there's it's you know, we we both get some juice off of that. Um, but then you know, analog Enneagram was birthed out of frustration of this uh people are doing two ends of the spectrum, but missing the most important piece of unsexy day-to-day, how do I get out of bed? How do I process my emotions without having to sit down for 30 minutes and meditate? Like what are what's my what's my automatic checklist to figure out what to do next? Um, the skill, what skills, what tools do I have available that is the right tool for the job in the right moment in the right context? Um, instead of needing these far extremes of simply awareness or um some some large action-oriented um big overhaul in your life in order to grow.

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Well, and at the end, this is coming, so just uh you know, heads up. I I do want to talk a little bit more about what analog Enneagram is and how how people can learn more. So we'll we'll talk more. If listeners are like, what is this? We're you're gonna stay tuned. We're gonna talk about it. Um but uh and and I I love that though, because it it is kind of like um I either have to do something incredibly transformational, like life-changing, or I guess nothing at all. And most of the change is is in all those kind of small moments. So um yes, I agree on that. Is there is there a and it's okay if there's not, but is there a specific moment or situation that comes to mind funny, serious, deeply meaningful, that the the two of you were working together and your kind of stereotypical behaviors like were really showing, or your strengths were really and you're like, oh gosh, I you know, this, or your kind of opposites, the differences that you have are really showing.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Lee.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Oh, I was gonna say Creek's got this one, doesn't have to pause. Um there are a lot we've worked together in a lot of different ways. Um and so I think there are examples of each of the things that you said, you know. But I would say as a utility to the listener, um one of a a difference between the two of us that I think is something that we navigate and accommodate one another on is um pace. Um and um I tend to go fast and um kind of non-stop. And that has its place, right? Um and it is very effective, sort of, you know, but because Creek and I communicate pretty well about what expectations are, we work around problems that would be there, but in relationships I've had in the past, I would have blown over people. Okay, both because of my natural pace and uh from the transmitting standpoint and being pretty much indifferent to navigating. Um I would have uh uh steamrolled over people not realizing it and never looked back, you know. And so then on the on the and and that is sometimes rewarded by being effective about that, you know. Uh but with Creek, I'm kind of checking my rearview mirror. It's like he's following me in a car and I'm checking the rearview mirror to make sure he's still there because I know where we're going.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

You know, great analogy.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Yeah. Um, and sometimes I'm wrong, you know, so he can say, like, yeah, we took the wrong that last left was not correct. So back on the road. But um that's one of the biggest differences, I think, between us is pace. Okay. And the the solution to that, and I think any other problem that we would have is communication. Um, and how we communicate is going to be impacted by how we think. So we may have to use our words to say this isn't working for me, or I need more of this or less of this, or ask questions. And I'm very bad at question asking. This is the whole point I wanted to make on coming on this podcast today. Um, is that the bleeding edge of growth for me is to ask questions instead of make statements. Oh. And Creek is an excellent teacher uh by example, uh, because he asks good questions. But he'll also directly push back on me and basically be saying, but make it in the form of a question. Like he's Alex Trebek, like, you know, but imagine a world where that stuff you said was a question. I'll be like, okay, I gotta get a pen.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Gotta register a minute. Hold on, I gotta write, I gotta workshop this real quick.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Yeah, just feel give me five minutes, right? Um, but that is something of real value. And I will say also, before knowing the Enneagram, I would have thought I was a great question asker. You know? And that's not precisely accurate.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

I think what's what is true is you're a voraciously curious person. I just don't think you always externalize the question that already happened in your brain.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Fact. I think because of the speed.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Yes. Well, and it's it's also uh with analog Enneagram and other ways that we've um collaborated. Like Lee is Lee has been kind of um on the board of directors of Fathoms um for for a few years. And I was I was leading that team, and so in that sure, uh sh maybe she goes at uh 85 miles an hour, but when I'm in the lead, like she's she's easily in the back seat being like fine, but just be like you could turn here, you could turn here, but you know, there's a bridge up there. I'm like, cool, we're still going 55. Um so I there's a there's also a role thing, and this goes with the navigating. And knowing right now in my life, my capacity to be a vision, a visioneer, um, is limited. And so having Lee as that kind of as the driver is just really helpful, then I can hop in the car and we can go where we need to go. Um so I think uh the other thing I was gonna say is um analogies and metaphors make or make um their ways into our conversation a lot. Um and thankfully Lee has a story for everything, or some sort of uh vague reference to something that happened before I was born that then she gets to teach me about um that really fits perfectly to whatever we're talking about. And I think um that's something we've had to, I think is natural, but it's also we've had to learn on how like I need I need a metaphor in order to understand what we're doing. I need to see the structure, I need to feel feel the direction we're going. Um, where I Lee, correct me if I'm wrong, but I I I don't think that is necessarily how you see things. And and um sometimes you have to kind of drive around to figure out your direction, where I'm kind of like standing still and looking around before I choose a direction.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

I think that's a good metaphor. Um it just happens, yeah. I think that's right. I think that um I have a tendency to be in motion while I am deciding. Okay. Um and for better or worse. And um sometimes it works very well. Like Creek was saying, if I'm taking point on vision casting what we're gonna do about something, then I can say, hop in the car, I'll catch you up on the way to the airport, right? And off we go.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Um can I share our Tom Petty story?

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Please, please. Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

So so one of the ways that we communicate through all of this is sometimes uh Lee Lee has a lot to say about something. And sometimes I feel I'm like waiting for us to for like where are we going? Like this, I'm here for it, like I get the process, and after a while, I'm like, I've forgotten what we're trying to figure out here. Um and uh so the people that I live with have a they have a daughter who's three years old, and she's really into Tom Petty for some reason. Um and so I just uh at any point that I feel like I'm still falling and waiting for the impact, I just start humming, and I'm free. And that's that's her cue to be like, all right, let's let's let's land the plane so we know what we're what we're going for.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

I will make a thesis statement.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Then that's what the free falling is. It's like, okay, back to here. And so in conclusion, where we've landed is here. And you'll be like, right, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Why are we talking about orangutanks?

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Yeah. That's one of the biggest things that I love and that I hear teams talk about loving, is how the Enneagram can make something that might be normally frustrating and be able to make a joke about it. And I know I know that the Tom Petty reference isn't necessarily like a type specific thing, but those things come out of it because you're able to be like, okay, you know, I and whatever your type is, but this could drive me crazy or this thing, and you got to have turn down, turn down that whatever a little bit, or maybe turn that up a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

I was. That's I think I think it might be the most valuable thing about the Enneagram uh in working with other people, is it it's really compassion, yeah, and understanding and respecting and appreciating another person's logic, right? It's like this is not how I would do it, but it's valid and it makes sense in their system, and I'm trying to work with that. I'm trying to work with this person, and this is the language they speak, you know, and that's why any of the three of us are on here doing this right now, you know, to human better.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Yeah, yeah. Just just a tool at the end of the day. Um, not doesn't have to be our whole life identity. Um let me let me ask you this as we start to wrap it up. Um are there any uh stereotypes with these two that you think people either don't get right or just completely false? And and here's one that I've seen, and and maybe there's something to this, or maybe there's another one. Um, is uh I'll see a lot that um ones can be very Rational, logical, um, kind of have a tendency to think feelings are not facts, is what I what I hear sometimes. And then I hear the four saying that context is really important, feelings are facts, and that could potentially cause some friction, but is is that true? Or is that what other type of misconceptions or is that a is that a true theory? Um just kind of curious, any any thing that you think people get wrong about these types and how they might interact with one another well, I mean, to to speak to the one you just brought up, I I can speak from my experience.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

I mean, of course, different fours are gonna have different experiences. I think um to me emotions contextualize the facts um of what is happening and how how I feel about what is happening um influences how I want to act or behave or what decision I want to make. And and I think I won't get into all of this, but like I think all of us to some level are making um what we consider rational decisions, um, but from what data set?

SPEAKER_03 45:29

Great point.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

And is it is it from just a reactionary, is it emotional, is it I've thought through all the pros and cons. And I think there's something with um you know, feelings aren't facts, but but you know facts are barely facts sometimes. Um and so it's it's more about I guess the invitation there is just curiosity on on the overlap of those. Um and so I think yes, the stereotype of the four just being uh emotionally driven, non-thinking, no reason, just whatever comes up is the truth. And that's just called immaturity. Um, and that happens everywhere from you know eights to fours, you know. I I feel angry and therefore I am justified in treating you terror like terribly. Um and obviously that's not all eights. Um so yeah, I I'm trying to I'll try to think of another one, but that's just my own comments on on that. Um I don't feel I think emotions play a a part in my decision making, for sure, but um I'm also just really committed to seeing the world as unfiltered as possible because that's authentic. That's the authentic view of the world. And so I am voracious, and I know a ton of fours that are voracious about like chipping away what's unnecessary and what's what's ugly about something in order to get to the actual thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Um, gonna have a hard time adding on to that. Um but I'll I'll make this observation uh cosign. I cosign. And I think that this is one of the places there's about to be a tiny bit of preaching. I think this is one of the places where Enneogram teaching can be dangerous because it isn't that ones want to put their emotions aside and just deal with the facts and don't think that emotions are facts. I think anyone who's had a real argument with a one would have a difficult time believing that was their position, even if they thought it was. Um, it would be something like, yeah, but my feelings are facts.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

Um, but mine.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Stop having your feelings until we get this sorted out because I'm having feelings about it.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

Our feelings are not facts, yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Your feelings are interrupting me solving this problem. So hush, and then we'll solve it, and then we'll talk some more. Um that's closer to what it is. But the the this is one of those um, so Mario Sakura, our awareness to action Enneagram dad, right? Uh quote, somebody whose name I can't remember, uh, saying that all models are wrong, but some are useful. Right. This is a place where I think the Enneagram model is possibly not useful enough to be helpful. Um, and it's this about like conflict styles, right? Because in a conflict as human beings, uh huh, we are not just staying in our Enneagram type strategy number nonstop. Even if you believe Enneagram theory fully, we are banging around those connecting points like mad in conflict. Right? So we're not just one-ing. I'm going one and four and seven, this whole argument. Right. Um even if we're just going with Enneagram theory, much less humaning. So there's gonna be moments when I'm like, let's just calmly talk about this, and then you're gonna hit a nerve, and I'm gonna be like, let's just calmly talk about this, or um I could throw a couple punches and then, you know. I mean, so it's it's an argument for goodness sake. It's a conflict. We're having a disagreement. Yeah. We're gonna have the tendency to throw everything we've got at trying to get through it, you know. Um, so I would say um I think there's a moment after the fact when you can look back at a conflict and do sort of a post-mortem on it and you can find a minute where you did that thing. You tried the strategy of whatever your type is to avoid the conflict from going on to solve the problem. And then when it didn't work, all bets are off. You're just trying everything until it's over. And you can't know in the minute because you're in it. You're in it, you are in it, yes. Yeah. So all you can try to do is at that point is get through it and later learn something from it. Yeah. You know, so I think there's this magical thinking when we get into Enneagram, and there's logic behind this too, that boy, if I learn this thing, I'm gonna be able to never have a conflict again. Right. But c clients come to me all the time wanting to know how to work with their business partner, their romantic partner, their kids, whatever. And it the subtext of that very frequently is how do I stop them from doing their thing their way and act right? You know, that's some one coding right there. But it's or how do I work with them? How do I massage this to work with them? And it's like you just try to be healthy enough in your own personal self to not get triggered and fly off the handle as quickly, um, or to be able to make repair after the fact if you do. Yeah. And um you're just not going to avoid conflict forever. That's not part of the human, that's not how the game is played.

unknown 51:52

You know.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

So that a lot of times it's where the growth is, um, as long as you can go back and repair it in a in a healthy way. Um there, thank you for all that you have shared and being so open. Um, because I feel like this has been such a great fresh take and perspective on these two types, and then kind of the dynamic between the two, because there are um, I think quite a few stereotypes about both types. And so it's always great to kind of bust through those with real world stories, and then on top of that, just sharing some of your fresh perspectives. I appreciate. Um, I want to ask you about analog Enneagram. Before we go there, though, do you is there anything else you think that our listeners should know about either one of these types or these types working together or the Enneagram in general, which you've shared quite a bit, but anything that I haven't asked you about already that would make this feel complete?

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I mean, the only thing that's coming to mind is just um I know we're primarily talking about one and four, but the the vast difference of the subtypes and how those express um I mean the the importance of understanding for me as a navigating forward, understand my role and how my identity plays into that role. Um I I remember Lee, I don't know if you remember this, but like at the beginning stages of analog, just being like I need this to align with my identity. And I need to like what is my role in this community, and therefore, how do I infuse my identity and my distinctness into this space? I'm I'm not I'm not looking to just regurgitate. Like it needs to be a unique contribution, or I'm just really not interested. Um and so pushing into that, we we found that, but I think um for people working with fours, it's sure it can it can absolutely get in the way, and those are often the hardest conversations is when a four feels like their identity is threatened or someone is perceiving them in a way that is not how they see themselves. Um but if you can get, if you can have a conversation and collaborate with them to find how their identity and their uniqueness can be infused into this space, that's when the buy-in would typically happen. Um and so I think it's the emotions there are because they care so much about what they're doing, not necessarily just because they're being led by their emotions. What they do is so tied to who they are too much sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Yeah. Um I'll I'll piggyback off of that for one. Uh as a one. I have different identity uh issues. But doing things right is a value, you know, and um I think that one of the things I've learned from uh collaborating, especially with Creek and uh Stephanie Spencer I work with, who's also a four, um some of the language that I've come up to describe a difference between between the two of us is there's a certain amount of rigidity that I bring, which can sound sort of brittle, but it's also sort of foundational, right? Like if you're building a building, you want that rebar in there, you know. Um but there's a porousness that four has that just breathes more and the reminder that both things are important, you know, uh but that I have a tendency to see in a pretty binary way or a pretty incurious way, to be honest. I live with a lot of certainty. And if that's left unchecked, I'll stay in my fast driving lane and keep going. But I'm really benefiting from taking a minute and breathing and asking more questions and imagining what else might be true and my work benefits from it. My work might be technically right without it. But it's way more compelling with it. You know quotable, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Love that. Let me let me ask you, um, what tell us about analogeneagram, what's going on right now, where can people find you, and then anything to look forward to around that for us to look forward to as listeners.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Um Creek, I'm gonna speak first and you're gonna have the last word.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Great.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

Okay. Um, so you can find us at analogeneagram.com and at analogeneagram on Instagram. Uh, it is analog with the G-U-E at the end because we're bringing the British U back when it's important. Um uh and uh we recently did a Tyler Zach's Typish Summit. Um, that'll be available for um purchase if people didn't attend the summit. And uh we have some exciting new things coming up in the fall and in the new year with um some personal growth workshops uh with our analog stuff, which is predicated on a uh basis of the awareness to action in the agram model. Um we're pretty excited about that.

SPEAKER_03 57:50

And is it so anybody who's wanting to learn more, is it uh is it set up yet where it's gonna be workshops they learn from you? Is it coaching? Is it any anything else about how people will actually learn from you?

SPEAKER_02 58:07

It's coaching right now. We're working on a workshop to release to the public and as part of the awareness to action uh certification program. So that's coming up in the new year. Um, but for right now, we're individually coaching and and working on uh developing our workshops. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

And I I just I wanted to be clear because I think that people are going to really appreciate your takes from today and your insights. And so if there was a way to work directly with you, okay. So we'll link those and then Creek, I'll I'll let you have the final word.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

All right. Um yeah, I I I think I'll just speak to the the philosophy behind analog a little bit more. Um we were just so happy when we when when well when Lee stumbled on the name. Because I think it's especially in today's world, um it's a it's a trend, it's a it's a thing, and uh it takes effort to go be analog. Um but it's what our souls are yearning for, I think, right now. Um, and that doesn't mean you can't use technology. I mean, a lot of the analog stuff that we use is still technology, still uses circuit boards, right? But it's it's more tactile, it's more lived in, there's stories attached to it, there's there's skills that are required for it. And um in a in life, so much of our identities, so much of our, especially with the age of the internet, social media, our communities are non-tangible. Um, we're trying to make inner work tangible, um, inner work that is usable, um, but not just to add more things to your backpack, um, but but things that enhance your everyday life, um, that are enjoyable to use, easy to use, um, and actually useful instead of just I know another laundry list of the things I should be doing. Um and so I think it's um another thing that's kind of influenced this is the kind of movement of everyday carry items, where it's it's often these like highly thought-through, obsessed over little tools that you put on your keychain that can, you know, uh MacGyver your way out of any situation. And and those are the things that we're trying to help is how do we curate your little everyday carry bag when it comes to tools for personal growth? The the everyday things of you're feeling really overwhelmed today. Well, let's check your sleep. How'd you sleep? Have you had water? Have you had food? Um, when was the last time you moved? When was the last time you had sunlight? Um so, like, there's the there's the bodily functions to look at. Then there's also the stories that you're telling about the the situation and little games that you can play with your mind to help it um jump out of those those well-worn grooves, um, and find a way to see the world a little bit clearer without losing your sense of direction. Um, and I think that's it's a fine line, and I think it is very personal. Um so we're trying to find that how do we deliver this sort of really personalized, curated thing to the individual en masse. And um, so yeah, we're excited to see where that goes.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:44

Well, congratulations. It is a beautiful, fun brand. I have brand envy. Okay, you guys gonna check it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

All I wanted.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:54

Check it out. I love the the font, the colors, the photos, the imagery. I love it, love it, love it. Um, I do have to say quickly before we go, that um I had mentioned so often at times I'm in a room with no fours or one solo four. And many times, I and you guys maybe have experienced this too. Um, the initial question is, well, do we need to, I guess we need to hire more fours? We're we have a gap here. And we'll talk about you don't, it's not about hiring a four. It's what does that four bring to the team? And I just feel like because this is always such a gap, um, Krieg, I have to call out one of the things that we talk about is the four's ability to storytell. And I think you have just done such a beautiful job of storytelling through metaphors and analogies, and you always do um in your podcast interviews. And so when if you've ever heard me say this before, listeners, like this is this is what I'm talking about. And um, I know Lee, you have you also do it. Um, so it's not only fours, but um, that is that kind of energy to make facts, data um interesting and compelling. And um, you don't need to hire a four necessarily. It's what can we incorporate um into our sales messaging, our marketing messaging that a four tends to be so naturally great at. And you have just been such a great example of that. So um thank you, Krieg. Thank you, Lee. I know that you both have a ton going on. And so it has truly been such an honor to get to spend time with you, to learn from you. And um I have learned things myself. So thank you. And I'm sure our listeners have as well. We'll connect all those um analog Enneagram places to find you uh in the show notes. And with that, I appreciate y'all for being here and listeners. We'll see you in the next one. Thank you.