Adam Grant agrees to take the Enneagram

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Welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, founder and managing director here at Enneagram MBA, a team training company where we get to bring the Enneagram into the workplace through standalone workshops and off-site retreats and team development programs. And today we get to bring the Enneagram into some current events, which the opportunity doesn't always present itself. So I think this is really fun that the Enneagram is a part of a current conversation and we get to talk about that conversation. So I don't know how many of you listen to the Curiosity Shop. It's a podcast co-hosted by Brene Brown and Adam Grant. And they hosted their final show finale last week. And the Enneagram came up in that conversation. Specifically, Adam has agreed to take an Enneagram assessment and share his results and be open to a conversation where he's going to be sharing those results when he hosts Brene as a guest on his solo podcast, Rethinking. And for us in the Enneagram community, we have it is pretty common knowledge that Adam is not a super fan of the Enneagram. And some of that makes sense. For those of you who aren't familiar with Adam, Adam is most known as an organizational psychologist. And he is a top-rated Wharton school professor. He is also a number one New York Times bestselling author who uses his books and his various platforms to explore how people think, work, and collaborate. So right up our alley with the work that we do here at Enneagram MBA and the work that many of us do with the Enneagram. And he has been a pretty public and longtime skeptic of the Enneagram. And then you have Brene on the other hand, which I so appreciate and it's so fun. She is an Enneagram fan, believer, enthusiast. I think she has said she identifies most as an Enneagram type one. She shared last week that she has some theories on what Adam might be. I have some theories too that I'm going to share at the end. But we'll we'll just have to see. We'll have to see where it goes next year. But in the meantime, I thought, you know, this is something worth looking into. Um, does he have a point? There are some legitimate reasons to question the Enneagram, especially some of the theories that are out there around the Enneagram and the way that it is taught. But I also believe, obviously, um, that there is a lot of value in using it as a practical framework, a problem resolution framework to help people understand themselves and improve their workplace relationships. So before I go any further, I do want to give a shout out to my speaking coach, Carol Cox, who hosts the podcast, uh Speaking Your Brand. And then she has a program that I had the opportunity to go through a couple years ago called the Thought Leadership Academy. Anybody interested in public speaking or uh creating your speak, getting paid to speak, she is my go-to resource on that, Carol Cox. And she actually is the one that emailed me this podcast episode last week. So I do want to wanna say thank you for that. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. This isn't one that um has popped up on my my cue uh for whatever reason, but I was so happy to get to listen to it and and uh kind of dig in a little bit and prepare for this episode. So um I mentioned that, you know, he's Adam is not the biggest fan of the Enneagram. Um, as some of you might also be a little skeptical listening to this, or maybe you're a fan and want to bring it into your organization or um use it with a a coworker or maybe even a spouse,

Why his skepticism is worth considering

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and they have some skepticism. And so we're gonna look at that. Like, do they do they have a point? Um, with Adam being an organizational psychologist and you know, best-selling work, uh, best-selling author, his his work is something that I admire, appreciate, respect. And so I, you know, I'm we're we're all, I think, in the Enneagram community kind of paying attention to when he questions something that we use probably on a daily basis, um, both professionally and personally. So um, you know, it it makes sense that Adam would question this just with his reputation for questioning conventional thinking and encouraging people to rethink their beliefs. I think that is always um something that's kind of hard sometimes because we can get so attached and sometimes we make our beliefs um part of our identity. And so when when that happens, it becomes really hard to separate or to question those, to get curious and to potentially even be open to rethinking something that we have held on to. So um, you know, this is this is not always easy to to look at. So I I want to be um, I want to be I tried to be open as possible. Um, and rather than just, you know, outright defending the Enneagram, blindly automatically defending the Enneagram, I thought, okay, yeah, let's look what what is being said out there, and let's look at where I might agree with him and where I might not agree with him. So we're gonna look at does Adam Grant have a point about the Enneagram? And I think he does, but I also think that there is a bigger conversation out there worth having about what we're teaching, what we're claiming, and what we're trying to accomplish as Enneagram professionals and as people who are wanting to bring the Enneagram into our workplaces. So um his concerns definitely deserve consideration. Um, there are three important questions that need to be looked at when we're kind of looking at personality assessments. And one of

Reliability, validity, and personality typing

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those are reliability. Does the assessment produce consistent results? Validity, is it actually measuring what it claims to measure? And categorization. Do people fit into nine distinct types? So Adam has challenged popular personality frameworks, not only the Enneagram. Um, I think he also is a skeptic of um well Myers Briggs as well and some others out there. But you know, it's that's good. That's good. Um he's challenged those frameworks and the way people treat the results as facts, which that I do very much believe in. Um, personality is so complex. And we talk about this in all of our workshops at Enneagram MBA. Um, the the people that I most admire and follow and learn from also believe that it is not a simple, this isn't just a simple, well, you're a nine, you're gonna do this. You're a seven, you know, you're gonna do this. We always talk about it's a it's a it's a tool for curiosity, um, not a labeling tool, not some sort of um, you know, excuse that you get to use for the rest of your life or try to use with other people. Um, personality is complex, and a tool should not automatically be considered scientifically accurate because people relate to its descriptions. And I agree with that. Um, the Enneagram shouldn't be used as a shortcut for judging competence or making employment decisions. Very much agree with that. Um, on this show, we have done a podcast around should you use the Enneagram for hiring? Short answer, no. Um, that is a question that will come up. Now you can use it to, once the person has been hired, to maybe get to know their team a little bit better for their manager and their team to get to know them, maybe open up some um important conversations about how best to work with each other and understanding each each other's styles to maybe lessen or reduce some of the miscommunication and misunderstanding that is inevitably gonna come up. Um, but we should never use it as a tool to say, well, we really need a we need some seven energy on our team. Let's hire a seven. Um, so we have talked about that. I will link that podcast um somewhere in the show notes if you're interested in that. But um I I believe in that as well. So I think that you know, the criticism gets a little interesting here because we talk about the Enneagram, but one thing that gets missed in this conversation, and I think Adam's perception of the Enneagram is that we're not necessarily talking about the same version of it. One of the reasons why I follow the awareness to action framework is for this very reason. Um, I think the framework, the the Enneagram framework, the philosophy um behind how you teach it um also plays a huge part into its usefulness, its um credibility. So there is an article, and I I have attached this in the show notes, that has some interesting findings. Um, and this is

What 104 research samples reveal

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where I agree with Adam. Um, there's some research out there. It's let's see, a 2021 Journal of Clinical Psychology uh reviewed by Hook and colleagues, examined 104 independent samples, and the main findings um included there was a mixed evidence for reliability and validity, some relationships with established personality constructs, including the big five. So that that said, yeah, that that that's pretty close to that. Some studies found that there are benefits for personal and spiritual growth. Definitely agree with that. Um, and then there's limited evidence or support for the nine distinct categories or many of the secondary theories, such as wings and inner type movement. So I don't think we do the Enneagram any favors by exaggerating the science. Um, you know, a compelling story or a personal insight isn't necessarily true that every aspect of the model is valid anyway. Some of the Enneagram's most popular concepts have not been uh adequately tested. And I'm comfortable admitting that, you know, I'd rather acknowledge the limitations of the Enneagram than overpromise, you know, that it's gonna completely describe you and get you and predict your behavior. So obviously, we know that that's not true. And that those are a lot of disclaimers that we spend time on before workshops so that we can use the Enneagram in a way that serves us and we can use it responsibly. So if we're using the Enneagram, like I said, to become more self-aware, I think this is such a good conversation to have. Um, and just be open to practicing self-awareness with the Enneagram itself. Now, on the flip side of Adam's skepticism is some newer research and a book that was put out by Daniel Segal. And um, it was, let's see, 2024, psychiatrist and researcher

Daniel Siegel's newer approach

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Dr. Daniel J. Segal, together with the PDP group, published the book Personality and Wholeness in Therapy, integrating nine patterns of development pathways in clinical practice. Woo! That's a mouthful. Um, you know, and there's there's some interesting work here worth mentioning. Um and I think one of those interesting things is that they explore the Enneagram's nine personality patterns through the lens of interpersonal neurobiology. Okay, we're getting we're getting very uh science-y here, um, where they reframe them as developmental pathways and strategies that people use to navigate the world. All right, so that is really important, that last part, reframing them as developmental pathways and strategies people use to navigate the world. If you've heard me on this show describe any of the types, if you've heard me in a workshop, you know that we talk about the nine strategies, striving to feel perfect, striving to feel connected. There's strategies that we use, not necessarily a description of our personality. So I really like that. And I liked that it talked about developmental pathways. Because again, another reason why we we really love the awareness to action framework is because it gives very specific and and pretty simple guidance for how to use the Enneagram to for developmental reasons, not just again, fun descriptions to share about ourselves. Okay. So already in line with that. Now, this book is not the same as a new study proving that the Enneagram is scientifically valid. Okay, we we don't have that yet, but I do think it's a meaningful development when respected researchers and clinicians are willing to examine these patterns through contemporary psychology and neuroscience rather than just dismissing the framework altogether. So, to me, you know, that's the kind of curiosity and investigation that I think the Enneagram deserves more of. So we can we can acknowledge that the limitations in the existing research at this point, um, while also recognizing that the conversation around the Enneagram continues to evolve. And I think that that is another reason why we use the awareness to action framework here. Um and I don't want this to turn into a commercial for them, but that's that's the framework that we use um because it is a it continues to evolve. They have evolved, you know, the very beginnings and and looked at what's useful, what actually happens in the real world, how does this actually get applied? What are we actually seeing? Um, and you know, they have had 25 plus years of experience um looking at those types of things. And because of that, the awareness to action Enneagram, I think is a is a very evolved, I would say contemporary um model and approach to the Enneagram. And I would be very curious if Adam knew more about that approach, what his thoughts would be on the Enneagram. Um what I also question about the Enneagram is well, a couple things. So, first of all, there are different approaches. So over the years, the Enneagram um teachers and schools have introduced many additional layers. We have wings and sometimes very complicated subtype descriptions. We have centers of intelligence, head, heart, and body. We have passions, we have the vices and virtues, we have childhood wounds and origin stories. Um, there are spiritual and psychological interpretations, and sometimes there are just some very elaborate explanations for how types connect and influence one another. So

The workshop experience that changed my approach

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some people find all of those approaches meaningful, especially in spiritual or personal growth settings. Um, but I don't think that they're all equally supported. Well, they're not, they're not all equally supported by research. Um, and I don't find all of them useful in the workplace. So I have told this story of kind of the catalyst for me, again, four or five years ago, questioning my approach to the Enneagram. Um, because I was in a workshop, I was teaching the center, the traditional centers of intelligence. And I up to that point had always struggled to explain how type one is grouped in the body or gut center along with the eight and the nine. And then you know, they'll say, Well, nine is in the the body center, but it's repressed. Um, and so, and then you have to kind of start talking about, well, what is what is repressed mean? Um, and so many, almost every workshop up until that point, um, and including that day, um, somebody would say, What? Well, I tested as a one, or I'm really identifying with a one, but this part here, I would, I feel like I'm always in my head. I'm constantly thinking and analyzing. And for the

What I question about traditional Enneagram teachings

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for the um type one, according to the centers of intelligence theory, that is the repressed center of in of intelligence. And I just, you know, whatever you however you feel about that theory is for you to to feel, it's for you to use, however helpful it is, it just became not it, it just wasn't helpful. That that that theory of the Enneagram was not helpful because I was spending so much time explaining the model back to him. Like, no, no, no, you're wrong. You don't, you're not actually thinking, you're actually repressed thinking. Um, and I'm over here trying to, you know, make their personal experience fit this framework, specifically the center of intelligence framework. And I just thought, I don't know. I don't know that I feel right to continue to talk about this when I'm not sure I believe it either. And now I'm just, and I just don't believe it's helpful. I'm am I actually helping people or am I starting to actually hurt people and not not hurt people, but just confuse people and cause more harm than help? And so luckily, eventually I came across the awareness to action Enneagram where they don't talk about centers of intelligence intelligence. It's very straightforward. It's nine types, three instinctual biases. And then they will talk about the inner workings um between the the two connecting points, resource points, whatever you want to want to call them. Um and uh, you know, that that's that's that's kind of it. And then that makes it really useful. You don't get into having to overexplain and tell people why, you know, they don't fit into certain theories. Um, and so I just I I realized that I was spending more time defending the model than really understanding the person asking the question. And that is the exact opposite of what we want to do. That's so backwards, right? Um, so the purpose of the the framework, whatever framework you're using, should be to help us understand each other, including ourselves, um, but not to make people conform to the framework. That's crazy, right? That's crazy when you think about it like that. So um, a person's lived experience deserves to be taken seriously when a theory doesn't fit. That should inspire curiosity, not an elaborate explanation for why the person is wrong about themselves and their lived experience. Um, and the more complex a framework is, a model is, doesn't necessarily mean that it's more accurate. In fact, it's usually the opposite. Um, more terminology doesn't automatically mean more self awareness. And I am in no Way, absolutely no way suggesting that every spiritual or traditional teaching of the Enneagram is worth worthless. Um, I don't believe that either. But I am saying that we should I guess be able to distinguish between metaphors and theories and personal experiences and evidence. So there is probably, you know, what the framework you use in the workplace is probably gonna be a little bit different than uh the framework and how the person is talking about the Enneagram if you go to, you know, a yoga retreat in the jungle of Costa Rica. Like that, they're just gonna have different experience. And I think different parts of the Enneagram are going to make more sense to bring up in those different settings. And so all we do is really talk about the Enneagram in the workplace while being open to other people using it in different ways, and they can find it as helpful or not helpful, helpful as, you know, as they as they want to or as they do. Um, but in the workplace, uh there is, I think, some additional scrutiny or and curiosity about some of the more um traditional ways that the Enneagram has been taught that are worth just getting getting curious about questioning. And just because you question it doesn't mean you have to throw it out, but I think it it does warrant some curiosity. So I think the biggest takeaway here is just remembering that whatever model you're using, it should serve the person, not the person having to serve the model. And again, it's less about oh, you are scientifically proven to be a type nine versus, oh, this is these are some things that I'm noticing. What's true for you, what what feels accurate for you. Um, and so what happens in our workshops is that rather than being obsessed with a type, we want people to start reflecting on their patterns, recognizing the patterns in themselves. Um, it's important that they hear how coworkers experience the same situation that can sometimes can be very different. Um, we have a really fun exercise that we do in our half to full day workshops around that. Um, but just that awareness can be really powerful. It's important that they start to develop some sort of language to explain those differences. So, whatever, you know, whatever you want to call

The model should serve the person

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it, um, the Enneagram gives people um a language to use. Um, and then uh a lot of times in our workshops, people are able to identify more productive ways to communicate, collaborate, and handle tension. Um so, you know, we have had have shared multiple stories. People have been on here and shared their stories about how they thought this person was being difficult and questioning their authority because of all the questions they were asking. And it turns out that person just really cares about the team. Um, you know, one person being maybe uh, you know, very uh having a vision of for how great things could be, how this person in front of them could be, the excellence that they could they do have and and could get it even better at, while the other person is, you know, experiencing that that is very critical, very um hard to please somebody. So there's all sorts of examples um that you can read about in Enneagram literature, but that we have also experienced firsthand where um the Enneagram has been the tool that we have used and those teams have used to shine light on some of those differences that have led to miscommunication, maybe less per productive, less happiness, um, more stress and more friction. Um, but uh under helping understand those things and and and kind of remedy that. So um we by no means, especially here at Enneagram MBA, and I think most Enneagram practitioners are trying to use the Enneagram to predict how somebody will behave. Um, but you know, we're just trying to give people some better questions to ask, some things to get curious about when they don't understand each other's behavior. So, in closing, let's bring it back to Adam's uh conversation last week. Um, you know, what what if both Adam and I, with along with the majority of the Enneagram community, what if we're both right about some things? So Adam is absolutely right to ask some of those difficult questions about the scientific support. Absolutely. Um, I think Enneagram practitioners, we should welcome those questions. We should be getting curious ourselves. We shouldn't be getting offended or uh defensive. I think practitioners also bring um their real world field-tested experience for how the Enneagram framework has been used to benefit teams. We have that real world experience, even if there's not scientific evidence to back it up. We have those success stories of how a leader was better able to understand a particular, you know, quote unquote, difficult team member. Um, we have those success stories

What research and practitioners can learn from each other

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for how the team was better uh able to collaborate on a particular project because they understood where each other was coming from. Um, and so those experiences um I think are are also valid and true. And I do think that we would benefit from better research into specific workplace outcomes with the Enneagram. I think a lot of the um research too is is really pretty narrow and focused on does the type description, like how valid is the description, how accurate is it? And we don't hang on to that as we we treat a type as a hypothesis, and it may change the more that you learn about yourself. Um, and that's okay. That I think that should be welcomed. Um, I just had I went on my own kind of questioning my dominant type uh journey a couple months ago. And um, you know, I turned out I was the type that I historically thought I was. But I think those are those are healthy things to to question and not hold so tightly to. Um, and that's what a lot of the research, though, I think is out there and and why there maybe isn't as uh strong evidence that the Enneagram is quote unquote accurate when you're only looking at does this type describe these personality models out there? Um, but instead, I would be curious to see research kind of expanding, zooming out, and how the Enneagram uh is helpful and beneficial. Like, what does the science say about how how by understanding people's different perspectives and lens of the world, they're able to better communicate and collaborate? Like what does it say about that? I don't I don't know that there's much out there on that yet, but hopefully in the future. So um I would love to see um more collaboration between researchers and practitioners. Um can a structured Enneagram workshop improve how teams communicate? Like that would be a really interesting research. Can it help people recognize their automatic assumptions? Not necessarily is this description correct and accurate. I think those are questions worth studying. So, you know, in closing, I don't need Adam Grant to become an Enneagram enthusiast. And I don't think he should accept the Enneagram just because people find it meaningful. But I do appreciate his willingness to explore it and I will be just anxiously awaiting uh his results and his thoughts about his test, um, which are not always accurate, as we have talked about before with testing. So that whole thing will just be very interesting. I'm I'm just I'm so curious and I am a little, I am a little nervous about how that's going to go because those assessments are not always accurate. It's such a self-identification process. You have to have a level of self-awareness, um, you know, depending on what kind of day you're having, can also influence that. So we'll see. But I think overall, I do appreciate his willingness to be open to it. And um, you know, whether you're a researcher uh or an Enneagram coach or a manager trying to understand your team, I think that we all can agree that curiosity is a better starting point than certainty. So I I think regardless of what your stance is on the actual Enneagram, um curiosity. Ted Lasso over here talking about, you know, be curious, not judgmental. Um, and I believe that the Enneagram is a wonderful tool, a very useful practical tool to help you be more curious about somebody. So we'll leave it at that. Um I guess if you have additional thoughts, additional pushback, um, maybe you're on Adam's side, or maybe you have additional evidence that I did not share, articles, additional research that I didn't mention on here that you wanna um you think other people should know about, feel free to share your thoughts over at anyagrammba.com forward slash contact. And um, speaking of curiosity, I have been wondering since I heard that podcast what type Adam might be. And I know we all know we're not supposed to type each other. Um, and so I'm not going to attempt to type him necessarily. Um, I do wonder, you know, with some of that skepticism, is it a six or is it a one? Is there some five in there? So I will not pretend like I can type him from a handful of interviews that I've heard him on over the years. Um, but it did kind of inspire an additional idea that we're gonna do in the next episode and a question that I think is useful for all of us at work around why do people, why do different people um question things in the first place? So we're gonna explore that one in the next episode. Um, and I hope to see you in that one. Um, in the meantime, I will say um these are the sort of things that we explore in our workshops and our retreat experiences. If you're looking to plan an end-of-year meeting or kickoff meeting, or even at this point, a summer retreat of some sort, a summer team building activity, um, check out our options, reach out over at Enneagram MBA.com. We are starting to book um well into 2027.

Is Adam a Type 1, 5, or 6?

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Um, if you're looking for a facilitated experience, and then if you're looking to lead the experience yourself, uh we have a planning kit, a workshop planning kit that you can find over at Enneagram MBA.com forward slash resources that gives you sample agendas, um, talking points if you have to sell the idea to a manager, to the event host. Uh, we have ideas for setting up a room, um, the benefits to expect, discussion questions. So you can find all of that in a free planning kit over at Enneagram MBA.com forward slash resources. With that, thank you for being here. And uh look forward to hopefully seeing you in the next one.