SPEAKER_00 0:06

All right. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram at Work Podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Wallace, founder and managing director here at Enneagram MBA, which is a team training company. And we are now two weeks in a row where we get to be joined by a special guest. And my special guest today is Andy Bales. And Andy has been enjoying for the last couple of years his retirement. But previous to that, he was um 35, he had a 35-year career for a large Fortune 500 company here in the Midwest as an engineer manager and a global supply chain leader. So lots of real world experience. He's going to be joining us today to talk about not just his Enneagram experience personally, but some of his observations for using and seeing the Enneagram used in a real world organization. And Andy is joining us as a retiree at the moment, looking for the next chapter. Like I said, he was his company's kind of internal Enneagram champion. He also had worked in the academic space, sharing the Enneagram and some of those uh programs. And he is also joining us as an Enneagram type six, which we are going to touch on just a little bit. So, with that intro, Andy, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Well, thanks very much, Sarah. It's great to be here. I really appreciate you having me on.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

All right. Well, I know that um you had a long career um in what I would say the real world. Um and I'm kind of curious, you know, when I when I when we first got connected and I was, you know, learning about you, you were sharing a little bit about yourself, you started off as a mechanical engineer, and then you kind of ended up as the Enneagram guy at work. So how does that happen?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, well, it took a while. Um, but I would say kind of started with uh an interest in psychology going all the way back to my high school days. Um, and um, I think we'll talk a little bit more about it in a little while. But uh I became aware of the Nagram in 2000. Um, and I I really liked it. And I I found it really helpful for myself uh at work and in my personal life. So I I kept looking for ways to bring it to my co-workers. Um the first few years I I uh offered to help my coworkers determine their Enagram type. And then uh later I joined an organization that was committed to uh a strong culture and personal development. Um so I proposed to the leader of that group, um, how about how about the Enneagram? Maybe I could bring a two-hour session to our group. Um, and he loved the idea. Um, and so went ahead and did the training with our group, and it went well. And um then some other people heard about it, and a few more um requests for training for other groups uh started coming in.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Okay, let me let me ask you this, and we are gonna talk about your introduction to the Enneagram back in 2000 and and kind of how you knew you were six, because I always think that those are interesting stories. Um, but I'm curious what about the Enneagram was interesting or you felt like would be useful in a corporate environment? Because I think um I think more and more I'm seeing it in the workplace, just even in the last like five or six years since we've been doing this predominantly with teams. Um, but before that, I think a lot of people, from what I hear, are introduced to it kind of in a more spiritual or kind of uh personal development um context. And I'm just kind of curious what you saw back then that was that kind of made you think, oh, this would be great for the workplace. And I and I agree, obviously, because that's what this whole business is. Uh, but I'm just kind of curious what what you saw.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I think for me, the power of the Enneagram is that it's just tremendously uh uh insightful and accurate and goes to the core of everything, which is arguably our worldview and our motivations. So I think if you understand somebody's motivations, um you can do more with that than any of the other models that are out there that don't really focus on motivations.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, you said it was accurate, and I don't know if our listeners heard the latest episode, depending on when you're when you're catching this. I think it was two episodes before this one. Um, I just did uh a recap of a workshop where a guy had said during a workshop, a gentleman had said during a workshop that he was not excited about coming here to the workshop. He was dreading it, he was very skeptical and very resistant. And he said, you know, then I took my a test and got the results back. And he's he said I was an A. And he said, I could not believe how it nailed me. Like it just, it just captured me. And he said, then I was like, well, okay, I'm gonna have an open mind about this. So it it is really interesting. Um, and I and I think that is one of the reasons why it it's been so sticky, just in general, but then specifically in the workplace, because it it really can, you know, see you, which can feel a little too too much at times, but it it really it really can describe you. Um, so speaking of our results, I know that you have been doing this for quite a while back in 2000 or 2000. Um you, your neighbor, it sounds like, handed you a copy of the Riso and Hudson book, which I have shown on here before. It's the big blue book, I think, is what you're talking about. Um what like whenever you got to the chapter about the type six, like what was jumping out at you that that you that had you thinking, oh, this is this is totally me, speaking of being seen, feeling seen.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, so I I think that book is uh a great book. I've read about 15 Enneagram books, and that one still is probably my favorite. Um, and it starts with um, you know, like your strengths and at your best, and then things to watch out for. And I noticed that um it had there were characteristics that uh I think were very much, you know, attributable attributable to me in all of that. I I when I'm when I was really feeling good uh and thought I was doing well, say at work, um, you know, I was courageous. Um I was working on uh systemic work process improvements, um, uh had great you know collaboration and coordination with other people. Um, but then when things weren't so great, maybe I would tend towards being pessimistic. And uh I might have had a tendency to uh question uh authority or uh you know maybe not feel completely comfortable around authority. So all of it seemed accurate, and the fact that all of it combined into one seemed to fit me uh similar to your the gentleman who you've said who was an eight, uh I it yeah, it it nailed me. And I I had you know learned other other models like Myers Briggs and Disc and things like that, and they all are great and they have their um positive qualities, but to me the Enagram, like you said, like it saw me.

unknown 8:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yes. And it, you know, and typically they joke about the eights typically are the ones that love to know that they're an eight, but for the rest of us, it's like, oh, oh, I don't want to be this type. Um, no, I don't know that's fair to the eights, but you know, that's what that's what the joke is. Um, I also know that you had um just before we hit regard, we were also talking about the the subtype or the instinctual bias. You had mentioned you felt most pulled towards the preserving one. So preserving six kind of as that stereotypical six. Um, anything else that you would add to kind of your realization around that being the instinct that you most resonated with?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Um, that's a great question. Uh I mean, I think it's interesting because preserving in six actually have a lot of commonalities, even if you're preserving some other type.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Um, so I'm kind of like the the dutiful, take care of things, um, do what I ought to, um uh kind of like on steroids because of being a six and being preserving. Um, but like, yeah, so it was very obvious to me when I was learning about the different uh subtypes that I'm preserving. You know, I I focus on getting enough sleep, exercising, eating in a healthy way. So um, you know, it's just like very both being a six and being preserving were like completely clear to me from the get-go.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Okay. Okay. Well, I know that um there's there's uh come across a lot of sixes. And so I know that they're gonna resonate with some, if not all, of kind of your experience and the things that resonated with you too. Sixes sometimes get dubbed as kind of the Debbie Downer or like the negative one with all the questions. Was that ever a label or just kind of vibe that you felt like you had to endure?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

You know, I I I really enjoyed the work that I did. Um, so I think that it was the small percentage of the time at work that that I might tend towards pessimism, or I might I might overdo it a little bit on being a devil's advocate. Um and so I think it's really helpful to me to learn that that is a tendency that can get in the way of success for a six before I got too far in my career, because I don't think it had limited me by the time I learned that. Um and then I started taking corrective action after I learned that. And I, you know, I don't think that any of that limited me in my career going forward.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Well, um, and and that is, you know, I and I always love the realization that other people have when they learn about their type six teammate, and that like questions don't mean, you know, negativity or I don't believe in you or that sort of thing. So I know there's much more we could talk about the six, but the reason why I wanted to have you on here, Andy, is because you have used the Enneagram in the real world, in a real workplace situation multiple times. And so I'm always, you know, able to share my experience when I go into groups and what they share before and after and all that. But it's always, I think, so beneficial. I think it's beneficial. I think it's interesting to hear how other people have used it inside a real life work place. And so um, one of the things that I know you kind of had experienced and came to kind of have a philosophy around based on this work was around speaking to people's listening, um, especially with people in charge. So, what can you give us an example of what that might sound like with a boss who's an eight compared to someone, a boss who's a three?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah. Um, so for sure, at my company and probably a lot of uh companies and other organizations, a lot of the leaders are eights and threes. So that's a really good question. Um, what I found in in dealing with eights is that it's really helpful to be realistic and to be clear what you know and what you don't know. There's a few other things, but those are probably the top things that jump out to me. And then when uh interacting with a three, um, especially if you report to that three or you know, they have some higher influence in the organization. Um, I found that it's helpful to be enthusiastic enthusiastic and optimistic. Um, but be careful not to be too optimistic. Don't get taken, you know, don't get carried away because you still have to deliver on things.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Um so uh, but yeah, it it definitely is very helpful to know the type of the person you're presenting to working with, you know, uh interacting with.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah. Um I I'm just even thinking of people that I have interacted with recently, um, you know, where you might have someone who's more of like a four or or a six, and they're like, no, no, no, like give me the context, like give me the backstory. Um, and then there's others, you know, like you were you were mentioning here, that's like, let's just start. What do you need? You know, like what where like let's not bury the lead, just ask your question, and then I'll ask questions if I if I have more. Um, so it can be so beneficial. Um, and you can get more done, ideally, and and ideally with with less stress and frustration. Um, I really liked this philosophy that you had around speaking to their listening. Um, could is there anything else you could you could say to that, just kind of as advice in general, regardless of the type?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, so you know, one of the big benefits about knowledge of the Enneagram is kind of like understanding to a certain extent the other person's reality. Um so it really deals with empathy and compassion and and trying to understand the other person. And so if you if you start from that rather than focusing on yourself or anything else, then then you can do uh I think a better job of of whatever is involved in the relationship. Um and then I think just naturally you wind up speaking to their listening because you know them.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I I really like the way that you you said that. Um we we will share a video from Simon Sinek at the end of several of our workshops, and he talks about we need to be listening more um and understand how people are listening. So that that is just such a nice kind of quotable tie-in to that. Now, I know that you had worked with a real world leader, um, we'll call BJ. Um, and he was the manager of a team with, you know, some more maybe command and control style of leadership. Um, you it sounds like you had worked with him. How were you able to nudge him? Maybe, you know, I don't know, softening up or or whatever that might be without overstepping.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yes. So I were I reported directly to BJ, and it was evident right when he joined the organization to lead us that uh he was command and control. Um and I saw opportunities for um, you know, how we might be able to contribute more as an organization if there was less command and control and and more overall contribution from the people in our organization because we were a mature organization with a lot of experience. Um so I think the first thing that I did in working with BJ was and and I I had a pretty good feeling that he was an eight based on the interactions I had with him over the first couple months. Um the first thing I knew I needed to do was gain his trust. Um and in assuming or presuming or surmising that he was an eight, um, I also know that eights tend to have like an inner circle of people that they they they really let in. You know, they can have kind of a hard shell, and everybody else they they deal with you know kind of at arm's length. But there's a few people that get into the inner circle. And so one of my goals early on was to gain his trust and get into his inner circle. And then once that I felt like I had his trust and I was maybe in his inner circle, um, then I felt like I could talk more freely um with uh some of my um suggestions that I I wanted him to hear.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Okay. And what I like about that story is that it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you just kind of started noticing based on your own Enneagram knowledge. Oh, I'm I'm picking up some clues. I'm not saying that I'm gonna go buy him a type 8 t-shirt, but I'm just picking up on some clues. Let me adjust my communication, my approach in this way.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Absolutely. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

And I I like that story because we are going to be working with people who where we've gone through a workshop or we've been reading books about the Enneagram for years. And and then a question that I always get is like, well, what if somebody hasn't taken the test? What if a client hasn't taken a test? What if I'm a teacher and I'm working with a parent? I don't know their Enneagram type. And it's like, well, you, you know, after you kind of do the deep dive on yourself, you start to see and learn about the others and and recognize and and kind of can tailor your style to better accomplish goals and get things done based on their style. Now, um, I know that uh BJ, his his manager, so now we're up two levels, um, was also started to get into the Enneagram. Um, and it sounds like his manager thought he was a seven, turned out to be a three. What can you tell us a little bit about the the story there?

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Sure. So um this gentleman, he's the one that approved um bringing the Enneagram to the organization. So so he was he was bought in. Um and uh he took the test, the Rizo Hudson Enneagram type indicator test that we all took um as pre-work to the training. And um he uh you know he he scored, I think, higher on seven than on three. Um but they were pretty close and they're both near the top. Um and uh so I met with him to try to help him determine his type. Um and uh I actually thought going into the meeting, because I had worked with him for a while by the time we did that, um I thought there was a good chance he was a seven. Um turns out that um after our discussion that he was a uh transmitting three. Um and how we got to that, after you know, looking through the the the report that came back, um he still wasn't sure. So I shared with him the worldview of a seven and the worldview of a three. But I I didn't tell him what they were, right? Um and he uh he he just loved the worldview of a three. I think the version that I shared with him is the the the world loves a champion, uh failure is not an option. Um so uh he uh he he just really resonated with that and he actually ran with it. He like loved knowing that he was a three. And um kind of like that um just kind of in I think emboldened him to emboldened him to do, you know, even more things than what he was already planning to do.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

And what it what I heard too was that this manager's team, this leader's team, ended up with the team with one of the highest culture scores in the company.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yes, yes. Now he he was committed to achieving that. Um I think even when he arrived. Um, but I think that he knowing he was a three helped him see better how to go about that by leveraging his um strengths. So when he first learned that he was a three, soon thereafter he coined the phrase be legendary. And he like he used that as uh you know, kind of like a rallying cry for the organization. And uh we had a lot of good results. Um and then over time, I think through various things, he learned more about what it what it is to be a three and what it is to grow as a three. And he modified the the the slogan for our organization to be happy, be legendary. Okay, and purposefully in that order. Um, and so yeah, so we did wind up achieving some of the and really mainly up to his leadership, um the some of the top culture scores in the in the company for a number of years.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Oh, I love that. I love hearing that. And I think that is one of the coolest things when you realize your type or your instinctual bias. I I've already talked in multiple episodes just about how eye-opening that was. But it's like, oh my gosh, like it just, yes, we all have our opportunities for growth, but I I don't know because it probably comes so easy, or we just do these things so unconsciously a lot of times that we don't even realize that it's like an it factor or the as big of a strength as it is. So I really I like hearing that story about how he kind of learned about the the three and really leaned into it and and really embraced those strengths, which is what we always um really talk about being the first thing is is you know, before you fix anything, um really lean into those strengths, acknowledge and and lean into those strengths.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah, he really did.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Um now I know that there was another um team member, SJ, we're calling them, um, who this was a senior technologist person who was what I I think kind of thought, um, or I'm sorry, there was there was SJ thought that someone was kind of shooting from the hip, maybe somebody on their team. And there, you know, there was some insight, it sounds like with the Enneagram that helped him realize um that maybe I shouldn't be trying to make this person, you know, fit so tightly and and um you know follow the rules exactly. Can you share a little bit more about that story and and correct me if I got any of those pieces wrong, please?

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Yeah, sure. So SJ and I I was SJ's mentor for many years. Um and mentors and mentees would meet uh however often the mentee um you know requested it. So we we met roughly four times a year for a while. Okay, and and he was doing very well in his career. And so his uh his leadership gave him a broadening assignment where he was managing a project um and that a senior technologist, a well-respected senior technologist, was on that team. Um, and soon after they started working together, SJ came to me and said, Wow, it is just not going well. Uh he said, this guy is not databased, he's not thorough, he's just shooting from the hip. Um and uh I really wasn't sure what to share with him. Um I had a couple ideas, but then fortunately, soon thereafter, SJ went through Enneagram training and um determined that he was uh a one, an Enneagram one. Um and so that helped me put a couple of things together, and I surmised that the uh the senior technologist was an eight. Um so uh regardless, I probably would have given similar counsel, but I I suggested that SJ like don't try to force this guy who's been around for a long time and is well regarded, has had success along the way. Don't try to force him to follow the rules or do things a certain way on your project. Just try to figure out how to really leverage this guy and try to have a good relationship with him because obviously he he has a lot of influence. Um, and so SJ, to his credit, he he really took it to heart. And I don't know all the things that he did, but they wound up having actually a much better than normal partnership. So it wasn't just like SJ was the project manager and the senior technologist was on the project, but they they wound up partnering together, which was great. Um, and their project wound up being quite successful, and then even after the project, the senior technologist became an advocate for SJ and his career going forward.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

That's what a great story. Um, I know that you have another one that um involved another uh person. And and we're, you know, we want to we want to remain uh anonymous, not be calling anybody out confidentiality here. So we we've kind of abbreviated names, changed some letters, but we had another employee that you had mentioned, LT, who was managing one person, and then she found herself in a situation where she was now managing eight people and kind of wearing herself out, taking care of everybody. Um, I know that there was some insight that she had um and some changes that she made when she realized that she was a two and not as a three. Can you talk a little bit about that story and what were some of those changes for the better?

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Sure. Yeah. So uh LT and I worked together in my capacity as the global supply chain leader for a couple of years, and we got along really well. Um, and um then uh not long thereafter, she got promoted and and moved to another area of the company. Um really exciting role. Um before she got promoted, she had only had at most, well, one person reporting to her at a time. Um in this new role, she had 10 people who are responsible for um upstream technologies. Um, so it was actually something that she had not worked on before as well. Um and um after she had been there for probably nine months, she reached out to me and asked me to provide Enneagram training for her group. Um, and as we were preparing uh for that, she shared with me that she was just like exhausted, she was burned out. Um, and she shared a little bit more about it, and um then she shared with me that um she took the Rizo Hudson you know test and determined that she was a two. And she had thought um from previous work that she had done that she was a three. Um and just put putting two and two together, not to try to be funny there, but to put putting two and two together, talking with her, it's like, you know, LT, you are you're you're doing this to yourself because you're trying to take care of everyone, um, and take care of everything within your organization. Um, and uh she she was realized that as well. And she's like, yeah, this just isn't sustainable. I can't do this going forward. So we did the training with her group. I encouraged her group to uh you know try to pitch in and help her. Um and um she committed to herself to stop working weekends and uh she worked with her um department administrator to take on some of the work that she had been doing, LT had been doing for the whole group that arguably an administrator could do. So she figured out how to like uh put boundaries on her giving and ask for help.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

What a great story. And you know, I think that a workshop can be fun. I hear that a lot because it's fun to learn about yourself. It's fun to take an assessment and then you kind of talk about it. But I love these stories that you're sharing, that it's like, okay, there's probably some of that, but like my life is actually changing for the better understanding these pieces about myself and about my then my teammate, the people I work for, I lead. Um, so thank you for sharing that. Um, you know, I I um I also know that you have this platinum rule that you referred to and and talk about. Um, if a manager, we somebody we have somebody who's leading people is listening to this episode today and would like to start using that in in their real world situations. Um, tell us a little bit about what that platinum rule is for you and and where would be a good place to start.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Okay, so maybe starting with the golden rule, do unto others, uh, see what have them do unto you. That's very like me focused. Um, and that doesn't put any energy into understanding the other person. Um and doesn't put any energy into trying to understand well, what might that person want? But the the platinum rule, there's a few different versions of it, but the easiest one is treat others the way they want to be treated. Um and so I think that's really helpful um because um it gives people what they want, right? And uh it leads to a better relationship. Um and to to be able to do that, you have to understand them, right? So you can ask them, like, hey, what do you want, right? And that that can be a short-term, you know, getting a need met right away. But if you want to know, like if you well, how about this? If you know a person's Enneagram type, then that's a great way to know the way they want to be treated without them having to ask.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Yeah, yeah. And what I what I like about the Enneagram is that um, you know, if you did have to ask or you did get feedback, or somebody was like, this is how I prefer to be treated or handled communication in this way, um, sometimes it can it can sting or can be like, oh, well, what's wrong with me or why am I like this? But I have heard from multiple people, and I I feel the same way personally, that the Enneagram can just kind of make it okay. It's like, oh, going back to, I think it was um LT's struggle, you know, challenge. It's like, listen, this is, you know, this is a you issue, but it also is common for people who identify with this striving to feel connected and the type too. This is very common. And I I have heard from managers that when they have to have some tough feedback, you know, referring to the type, it's like, well, this makes sense. For somebody who is striving to feel peaceful, it makes sense that one of your challenges at work might be, you know, addressing conflict and tension in the room. And so, you know, it doesn't necessarily make it go away, but I think it sometimes it can take the shame out of it or the like, this is a you problem kind of thing. So I I really love how you have used the Enneagram, the language of the Enneagram, the insight to um, you know, kind of kind of normalize things and then to actually get people on, you know, uh, you know, they they can improve something about their role, themselves, a relationship in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Yeah, it's a wonderful tool and a wonderful model.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Um now, typing is always kind of the hottest topic. It's always like where people enter into this world of the Enneagram, is taking a free quiz somewhere online or you know, reading books and trying to type themselves. So you at this point, and it might even be more than this now, Andy, but you have typed at least 20 people, um, or you have helped rather helped 20 people figure out where they are with their type. Um, what what would you like people to know who are maybe starting on their typing journey or who have been on it, but maybe need to reflect on it? What should people know before they try to figure out their type?

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Yeah, certainly everybody's journey is it's unique. Um, but uh one of the things that I tell everybody, or at least try to remember to tell everybody when I work with them, is that um they get to decide their type. So if they get a report or if they talk to somebody, or uh they read a book or whatever, um those are all good pieces of input. Um, but they're the ones who ultimately get to decide their type. Uh another thing I would say is that um it's important to trust your gut or your inner knowing. Um if somebody tries to tell you your type and it just doesn't feel right, it's probably not your type. And again, you get to decide. And then, you know, another thought would be you know, be patient. Um, it can take it can take quite a bit of time to figure out your type. Some people are lucky, like me, reading it in a book on the first page, they know it. Um, but some people for there are a lot of reasons why, you know, it's not obvious to people, even themselves, what their type is.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Yeah, well, and that kind of brings us to as we kind of start to wrap this conversation up, to um you have a you kind of have a unique process that I think has you've kind of simplified it, I would would say, or just kind of made it a little easier to find your type. And so you have used that with several of those people that you have typed in the past. And then um and Andy and I are kind of still working out the details, but he is going to be helping us, um, our Enneagram MBA clients after workshops or before workshops, um, help people understand their test results, their type, and then if when they do, kind of understand how to use it, like he's done in in many of these other situations. So this is a great kind of time to to plug that. And I'll just say kind of keep a keep a lookout um for more information um on Andy and and kind of how he's gonna be helping us um with with this particular piece of it because it is so important. You know, learning your type is part of the process. And there's things that hopefully you're reflecting on that maybe you haven't reflected on before, even if you're stuck between two types or three at times. Um, but at some point, it is going to be helpful for you to kind of narrow it down so that you can kind of start the growth process from that place. Um, and sometimes it helps to have somebody who's been doing this to talk through um, you know, things, challenges where you're getting kind of stuck in this process. Um, you know, is there anything that you would say at this point? I know we're gonna probably say more about it later, but um, is there anything else that you would say at this point, Andy, about just the the challenges sometimes around typing, why it might be beneficial to reach out to a professional like yourself or you know, us here at Enneagram MBA, um, and any kind of words of wisdom or words of caution?

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Oh, great question. Um I ran into multiple instances of people who at first at first blush or first result um were tentatively, tentatively deciding they were a three. Um and were thinking that they might be a three. And I think that that happens maybe a lot or a fair amount in the US because that is a type um that um is well regarded and it's kind of like the culture of the US. Other cultures like Japan might be one or Germany might be six. Like there's actually the information out there where like different cultures are are more leaning towards one type than the other. Um so I think that uh you know a tendency, at least in the US, to um to maybe want to be a three or lean towards a three is is something to uh to be to be aware of and to to you know really really look at things uh before unless you're like really confident that that's the case. Because there are a couple people who I knew them pretty well, and they had done a cursory uh bit to and and thought, oh, I think I might be a three. So I I sat down with them and talked with them, and I I didn't I didn't change their mind for them. I just said, Hey, can you why don't you look at this again? And a couple of them came back to me and said, Yeah, I'm not a three, I'm a whatever. So that that's one thing. I'd say another thing is that uh um some people their role, many of the roles in their life is to be a two. And that can that can conflate or make it challenging to determine well, what is my type versus what is my role? Um, and so depending on what test they took and how they answered it and what frame of mind they were in when they took it, and things like that, um two might be the right, you know, might be what their type actually is, but it might not because they were whatever the circumstances were, were influencing them to wait two more than necessary. And maybe looking at it again or having help from somebody might help them determine more accurately what their type is.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Yeah, that's such a great point. I was just thinking, um, I did a a workshop with a law enforcement group recently, and um the the largest or most common type initially was a type six, which makes sense. Um, and there was a gentleman who had typed high, um, I think it was a six, so there was some one, and then he had some five in there. But after we talked about the types as a group, he said, you know, it's kind of crazy, but I think I might actually be more like a four, um, like just based on your description. And that's kind of the opposite of what I tested. And so I think tests are really wonderful and that they can kind of help you narrow it down or get you to think about things. But to your point, Andy, I think sometimes when we're taking those, we start to put on the hat, the role that we are at work and and and think about, oh, how do I behave in this role versus kind of what is motivating me or what, you know, how am I going about doing this role or why am I doing this kind of thing? So um it gets tricky. And I, you know, I think that in the corporate world, especially in the workplace, you know, so many of us, it's like, I just want to take a test and just tell me what I am. You know, what's my what's my disc? What's my Colby? Like, it works for that. Why can't it work for the Enneagram? But there is so many other little nuances, just like we're talking about. It's like, are you stressed out today? Are you living Your best life today when you take that assessment. So it's a it's a data point, but it is by no means like go out and get a coffee mug with this type on it. And it really can help to talk to somebody, you know, whether it's somebody on our team to you know somebody else. But um, and that's why I'm so excited to have Andy joining us for for this support, because it it is so important and it can be kind of tricky. So as we kind of wrap this up, Andy, um, I got two more questions for you. One is kind of logistical, and that is if there is a fellow six out there or somebody who is interested in just hearing a little bit more about your actual application of the Enneagram, um, where can people, how can people get in touch with you right now? What's the best way?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Sure. At least for now, uh, the best way would be through email. And uh my email is Andy Bales, B-A-L-E-S 019 at gmail.com.

unknown 45:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

And we'll put that in the show notes. So if anybody wants to reach out, and I always say if there was something interesting or a takeaway, I know that it means a lot for the guests to hear from you whenever you happen to be catching this episode. So um there's that. And then as we close this, Andy, um, is there is there anything that I haven't asked you about that would kind of make this episode feel complete and specifically for maybe a leader or a some sort of manager who is thinking about, oh gosh, you know, this is just another personality assessment test. You know, we've done three of these already over my career. I don't know what's special about the Enneagram. Anything else that you would maybe say to that person that we haven't already covered, maybe, you know, offered a to for them to think about, to um consider based on your experience and the benefits that you've gotten from the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 46:01

You know, I one thing that I say when I when I give presentations on the Enneagram when I early on in the presentation is that what and this is kind of repeating something we talked about earlier, but I think it bears repeating. Um one of the things that makes the Enneagram different from other models is that it goes to the core of things, and the core being um the person's motivations. Motivation is what drives behavior. Um so you can you can observe behavior, um, but there's a lot of reasons why somebody might act a certain way. Um, but if you understand your Nagram type and the Nagram type of the people you're working with, then you can understand motivation and you can get really to the root of trying to whatever, make things more efficient, um uh be more compassionate, better meet their needs as a manager, um, pretty much across the board, whatever, just about anything that might be helpful if you understand, well, if you understand somebody's motivations, then you can make the whole situation better.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Yes, absolutely. Well said. Um, with that, Andy, thank you so much for taking your time to share your stories and be willing to share them on this podcast. And listeners, as always, thank you for joining us. I hope to see you in the next one. And um, with that, uh, appreciate you, Andy, and listeners. Um, I'll we'll be back again in a few days. Thank you.