SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm out walking Chase right now. He's my German Shepherd fur baby. And he's German Shepherd, and I also think we think he is my brother has his sister, which is really sweet. They play together a lot. And I think they're part husky as well. We got them from a rescue shelter almost three years ago now. And uh this boy just has a lot of energy. And so we're out for our second walk, and he is peeing on all the mailboxes, so we're making all the stops. But I thought while we did this and it was quiet, even though I may not be in a room, I thought I would um tell you about this interview that I just got off with Lindsay Bennett, who is a communications teacher. And it was, I say this every time, it's one of my favorite conversations. Um and I think you're going to love it. It's different than any episode we've done so far. Um, mainly because we spent a large part of this interview typing, kind of going through that typing process, uncovering, confirming um what her dominant type is. So I'll I'll give you the teaser that she is thinking between a two, six, and nine, and what she ends up with. I'll have you'll have to listen to the episode to find out. Um so we we talked a lot about that. So if you're struggling with any of those numbers, hopefully, or any of those types you're kind of stuck between. Um hopefully those questions are helpful for you as well. And then towards the end, she also shared some of her communications expertise, which will also be so valuable for you regardless of your type. And we talk about effective communication, and then she shares what self-compassion has to do with effectively communicating. She brought up three really, really powerful points that I wrote down in my notebook. I'm gonna be thinking about, hopefully, implementing myself. So you're going to get so much out of this. And I told Lindsay selfishly I had a long list of many more questions around communication because it's something I want to get better at. I want to get better at communicating with you, um, communicating with clients, important people in my life. And so that is her jam, that's what she does. So, um, and I know that for so many of us, that is a vital piece of what we do. So we're going to do a part two and just really focus in on all things communication at some point in the future. So stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, here is my interview with Lindsay Bennett. Welcome to another episode of the Enneagram MBA Podcast. This is a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and company leaders who are ready to get to know themselves, who are ready to get to know and really understand their clients and their teams, and who are ready to learn how to get known as they package and promote their expertise and services in a way that truly aligns with their personality, motives, and goals. So grab your notebook or open your notes app, and I will see you in class.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, so ever since I was little, I've been a peacemaker and it's just been part of me. I didn't really know, I don't know, it just felt like I never wanted to be around conflict. I desired that peace of mind and that peace of heart. And whenever there was stress around or tension or contention, anything like that, I it made me feel um a bit anxious and worried. And I always felt like I had to smooth things over, like I had to be the peacemaker in the group or in my family or whatever to try to keep everybody happy and keeping things um to where it didn't feel tense. But all the while, like as I was doing that, I felt tense, like I felt like I had that on my shoulders. And I don't know why, but I I just always wanted that peace and I didn't care for contention. I didn't know how to do conflict, and it always felt like the world was ending whenever there was conflict. And so I yeah, and I also when I so after those moments when I was trying to be the peacemaker and keep everybody happy, I would be so exhausted afterward. Like I needed to go back to wherever I was. Even when I was little, I needed to go back home and just recharge. And when I was little, I obviously didn't have those words to describe it. But looking back, I know that I would just go hang out in my room or just wanted to be alone so that I could, you know, I guess calm my nerves down.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Okay. And then I know that you also mentioned type two is up there as well. What about the type two is making you think, well, that could be an option for me as well?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah. So with type two, I've also wanted to be kind to everyone and compassionate. And I actually studied compassionate communication in my master's program. And um, oh, and in my undergrad, I studied peace-building communication. So there's that, like I've been trying to figure out how to have peace in the world. Um, so with the twos, um I always feel like I'm I'm being too needy or I'm a burden if I speak up for myself or anything like that, and trying to ask for what I need. It's a big struggle for me. And and I've so yet I've wanted to belong, and but I haven't really known how to speak up for belonging because then I feel like a burden and like all of those things. But I'm like I'm the one too that will reach out and try to help everybody and in whatever way that I possibly can. And I feel like I don't know, I feel like I'm doing that more so than receiving it, because again, I feel like if I'm receiving that help, then I'm a burden and people are annoyed that they have to help me and then I feel stressed out about it and insecure and all that, maybe rejection or abandonment, anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yes. Okay, so many clues in there. But before we talk about those, um, I want to get your thoughts on what resonates with you for the for the type six.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Okay. So I feel like we're getting into a therapy type session. Um, because it's like vulnerable city, which is totally fine. I'm okay to be vulnerable. But with that, I feel I feel at peace when I feel secure. So when I feel safe and like I'm I'm not going to be abandoned and I feel supported without like in a way that doesn't make me feel like a burden or whatever. Um and yeah, I really have a strong fear of being abandoned. And I don't know where that lies, like if it's two or six or nine, but I I feel like I'm and that's a history. This is why I feel like it's therapy. That's a history for me from when I was three, like even up until now, is I've carried that fear of being abandoned with me and that uncertainty. And I feel like at any moment perhaps a relationship could crumble because I was being too burdensome or not worthwhile enough or whatever. Even though, you know, I try to do everything or I practice loyalty in my relationships where I I aim to be as loyal as possible and supportive of others and stuff like that. Um yeah. Okay. That yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

I didn't I didn't mean to cut you off. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

No, I feel I feel like that's pretty pretty much it. Like that's a good overview. Yeah, and I worry, like I am a master warrior. Um that might tie into my anxiety when I talked about it with the piece, like trying to keep the peace. Anyway, this is why I feel like they overlap so much.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, okay. So here's some just initial thoughts, and then I'll reflect some things back to you. And then I want to hear your thoughts on those reflections. So one thing is that even um it will ultimately we have online types inside of us anyway. So it gets, it does get sometimes confusing, or it does feel like we can be multiple types. Um, or you know, this this whole self-identification process can take a while for some because we have all those, and then we have numbers that go to other numbers and stress, and then others in growth, and then we have subtypes. And so there is a lot going on. But I think that regardless, um, with anybody else, you know, in Lindsay's shoes that are struggling between two or three, um, that's actually beautiful because that's forcing you to even um learn about yourself more and ask more questions and reflect. Do is it this or this? Oh, do I do this? Where did that come from? So I just I I really um appreciate you being so open and vulnerable. And um, like I told you at the beginning of this, we are not the Joe Rogan show or we're not Oprah. So if you know we need to cut anything out, we we absolutely can do that. Um yeah, so no worries there. Um with the with the nine, um, a couple of things that you said to me that that stood out were was this need to recharge. You would go home and kind of hang out in your room and recharge. And the the thing um that really is type nine within that is that our fours, fives, and nines are in this group called the withdrawn group. Um, it's called the withdrawn stance. And what they'll do, Lindsay, is they'll go inward, they'll withdraw inward to get their needs met. Um, and so for fours, they'll go within their feelings. Um, fives go within their thoughts. And so that makes sense why you um might do that and why that nine piece is resonating with you. Um, the other thing that's kind of interesting about a nine that definitely had lots of overlap with your two description is the um the childhood message, the unconscious childhood message for our nines is that it's not okay to assert yourself. And so those things about, you know, being too needy if I speak up for myself, um, make sense as potentially a two, but also aligning with that childhood message. So I'm gonna stop talking for just a second with that message around asserting yourself. What's been your experience with that?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Hmm, that is a good question. So when I was little, I grew up as an only child of divorced parents and starting at the age of three, and that's where the abandonment comes in. So I'm trying to think back to Yeah, I feel like whenever I've tried to assert myself when I was little, I was made to feel like I was being sassy, you know, a smart aleck, things like that. Where and even as an adult, I'm like, well, no, I'm just saying something that might be different from what you believe. That doesn't mean that I'm being sassy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Absolutely. Um you you also had some said something about wanting to belong. And the core reason for a nine wanting to be at peace and to not have conflict is so that they don't have that disconnection from the group that they're in. So you saying that was like, you know, ticking off some of these nine boxes still. So let me just ask you a couple of clarifying questions about twos versus nines. Okay. Um when you think about when you think about your friends, um, and this is gonna sound like a weird question, but there's a reason why I'm asking it this way. Um, like what what do your friends mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

My friends, I have a core group of friends, and I'm the type that like the type of person that thrives on a core small group rather than having like hundreds of acquaintances or like surface level friends. So my core group of friends, I think of them as family. Um we lean on each other. We can go, you know, we're that type of friend that we can go weeks without talking and then pick up right where we left off. Or if there is a crisis or something like that, then I know I can depend on my core group and vice versa, they can depend on me and the others in our core. And so that is how I feel about my friends and home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah. Okay, okay. Um, and would you say when it comes to knowing what others want or need, would you say that you're good at at knowing that? Or how do you know what others need? Like your friends, for example, or clients.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Yeah, I can tell from intuition or discernment or things like that, where like my gut, if you want to call it that, I can just tell. And then as I've like, and I watch their body language, I um I watched for cues on what's different from what they've done before or how they've sounded before, or anything like that. And that's a lot in my studies too. That's come out even more with studying communication, is because we do study that nonverbal communication and and ways of knowing things, and that intuition is a really strong one for me.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Okay, okay. And then um around being liked, and this may sound you may not want to admit this, but the more honest, the better.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Um, if if you were to be completely honest here, um, do you are you the type of person that thinks, oh, I can get almost anybody to like me? Um, or do you not think about others liking you as much?

SPEAKER_00 16:01

I definitely am the latter. Like I feel like I'm well, I think it goes back to self-worth. And I for years, well, of you know, it goes back to the abandonment where I feel like if one of my parents can abandon me, then one of my friends who's not blood related at any moment could abandon me as well, you know? And so I feel like I take a lot to be liked. Now, if you asked my friends, they would not agree with me. They would be like, oh my gosh, you absolutely are worthy of attention and friendship and being liked and all of that. But it to my core, I feel like I'm not. You feel like you're not liked. I feel like I'm not liked or worthy of being liked.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Okay. And does that, does that how do you feel about that? Does that really bother you? Does that keep you up? Are you trying to change that? Or are you have is it just something that you accept, which it's not true, but just how you know how you're responding to that thought?

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah. So prior to turning, I'm in my 40s, early 40s now, but prior to prior to turning 30, I really cared what other people thought. And I was like a chameleon where I would um I would be what they wanted, whether I was in a dating relationship or friendships or whatever, I would be a chameleon and make myself be whatever I thought that they wanted in a friend or a romantic partner, whatever. But then something about turning 30, I was like, no, if people don't like me for me, then that's okay. We don't need to be in each other's lives. Even though, like, even though I think that it is a struggle for me to remember that. Like at first, if someone is, if I have this inkling at all that someone doesn't like me, I'm like, I feel gutted and and like just things tend to maybe be confirmed in my mind, like that confirmation bias, where I'm like, well, see, I was right, of course they don't like me, whatever. But so I have this battle with being authentic and being okay and proud of my authenticity. And then also internally I battle with like, oh no, they don't like me and I'm gutted, like I said. So it's so back and forth, really.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yes, and that makes sense. Um, as you know, being a human being, that's totally, that's totally normal. Yeah. Um, so I have I I I'm gonna ask you just a couple more questions. We're we're getting, um, I think we're getting some really great clues from this. So thank you for going along here. Um, I want to just ask you about um how you deal with conflict, um, difficult situations, challenges. Are you more of somebody who tends to get really emotional and express that and maybe even need to vent in hopes of maybe somebody else will feel the same way that you feel? Um, or are you somebody who tends to put on rose colored glasses and think that, oh, it's fine, it'll be fine, no worries, it'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Yeah, I I can be both of those. And this is why I'm so confused as to which Enneagram I might be more leaning toward. But when until my schooling, which I studied a lot about conflict communication, until my schooling, I was definitely an avoider of conflict, and I would shove things under the rug and pretend like everything was happy. And so, oh that I don't know if you can hear my dog sneezing, but well, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

We have dogs barking, and dogs are welcome on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Yes, okay. So I would avoid conflict like nobody's business. I, you know, and I would, like I said at the beginning of this, I would I would do everything that I could to keep try to keep everyone like happy and getting along and all of this and peaceful and in harmony with each other. Now with that, I've studied conflict. I have tools to have that harmony in the environment and I have that peace of mind, even though we're in conflict. I have the tools now to do conflict peacefully. That doesn't mean that I like conflict though. Like I still don't like conflict. I would rather we all just learn how to get along and listen better and be more kind and caring to one another. And um, so I don't necessarily run from it now. I do approach conflict, but I approach it with tools to help me feel more confident in how to do conflict, but all the while, like internally, I'm like, I wish I wasn't having to do this, like you know, yeah. But I like I wanted to change the way that my family does conflict and communicates, and I wanted to pass down to my children and their children and anybody else that comes in contact with us. I wanted to change that, and so I have really worked hard to do that. Like I said, I went back to school and studied that. So now I have the tools and doesn't mean that I'm comfortable with it, but I'm determined to be the change, you know, like that quote be the change you want to see in the world. Like I'm determined to be that change for my family, so I will do conflict even though I don't want to.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yes, yes, okay, and that's that is. That's hopefully what will happen, you know, with us all as we learn about ourselves and grow. Is that we just because maybe our Enneagram type in this specific situation, you know, shows up one way as an average an average health doesn't mean we have to stay there. So, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean you're not a nine, um, because you've you've gotten really good at dealing with conflict now. Okay, I have two kind of real world questions for you, and then I'm gonna give you back some reflections. And I want to hear your thoughts. So let's say that um let's say that you have a, okay, let's say that your toilet is running. You know how sometimes it just like you just hear run and run and run. Are you somebody is it's that like hears that and thinks, oh, you know, that's not a big deal. I'll probably fix that tomorrow. I'll get around to it maybe like next week, or you know, whenever I have time, I'll get around to it. Or is it like, oh my gosh, I don't want anything to flood? I need to get this fixed like immediately. Like, what's the energy you are you're gonna bring to that situation?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah, if I can tell that it's not going to be an emergent thing that I have to do, I will put it off until tomorrow, or when I feel like I have the capacity to deal with it because it's probably gonna be a lot of stress figuring out how to do the thing and fix it. Um, and so when I feel like I'm in a headspace where I can handle stress, like I when I travel, I have what I call a patience hat. It's not real, it's um it's figurative, but I know that there can anything can go wrong when you're traveling. And so I just put on my patient hat and I'm patient, like nothing really bothers me. So when I if I'm in that mood right then, when I hear the toilet running and I know I can be patient because I'm in the headspace, then I will. Most likely I'm gonna put it off if it's not an emergency.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Okay. And then let's say that you're with this core group of friends that you mentioned earlier, and you guys are gonna go out to eat, and there's a new place that you've been wanting to try, but you're not sure how the others in the group are gonna feel about it. How do you handle when somebody asks for, you know, dinner situations? Do you, you know, do you speak up? Do you go with the flow? Like, what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

I usually go with the flow. If somebody, if we can't make a decision, then I'm like, internally, I'm like, okay, I'll make the decision. And then I worry though that people aren't gonna like it or we're gonna go and they're gonna get something that they don't like, and then they're gonna be like, oh, I shouldn't have listened to her. You know. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Okay, okay. So here's what I'm hearing, Lindsay. And then you let me know. Okay, you know what your thoughts are on that. So um some things that I have highlighted um on my paper are the intuition is really strong for you. Um, being in that gut triad, which is where our eight nines and ones show up. Um, and sometimes for nines, um, it's actually a little repressed because they do want um peace so much that they sometimes will shove down any intuition um that feels like it might be in conflict with the group or the person. And so they'll shove it down, not to ruffle any feathers. So I love hearing that that's very strong for you. Um the other thing that you had mentioned is like earlier you were talking about you can you have this ability to kind of be a chameleon and fit in wherever you need to. And for that's very um, that is something our threes do a lot as well. Um, but our nines also can do it. And it's not so much called um being a chameleon, but sometimes just kind of merging with others or with others' opinions or others' missions. And so they'll just kind of um shape shift a little to again to keep the peace. It's a little, it's a different motive than why a three is gonna do it. And then um, you would also you were talking about going with the flow. And one of the things that they say again, according to Enneagram Theory, and that's why I love doing this type of thing with you, Lindsay, right here, and getting to talk to people on the podcast and in and typing sessions, um, because real-world experience is, you know, sometimes really different or unique compared to what you're reading about in a book, right? Um but Enneagram Theory talks about, you know, going back to that childhood message about it's not okay to assert yourself. And so how you process that was that you'll receive the love, attention, and that affirmation that you want if you just keep quiet and go with the flow. And so, you know, a lot of these are looking like nine qualities, both in behaviors and in the motives. And here's something to also think about before I before I pause and let you chime in. Um, when a nine is stressed out, because I know you also mentioned anxiety was a real thing for you, right? This struggle, yeah. Um, and a nine's arrow goes to a six when they're really stressed out. So they can become very anxious and worried. Um, worst case scenario thinkers, you know, black and white, irritable, defensive, stubborn. Um, whereas typically our nines are pretty laid back. They do have that go with the flow energy. Um, on the flip side of that, though, Lindsay, they can also dip into the great qualities of a six, where they're more confident, um, self-reliant, almost see like adversity as resiliency building. And I know you kind of talked a little bit about that too. Um so part of me is wondering if you might be a nine, your motives might most align with the type nine energy, and you're dipping some into that six arrow. And then two sevens and nines are all in that positive outlook group. So maybe you're bringing in some of that, you know, group energy to your type. And also the last thing I'll say is that um, especially for women, um, and I don't know what your religious background is, um, especially the who have like grown up in the church, they want to be a two. Um, they, you know, that's kind of like the stereotypical, like the helper, the caretaker, um, are other words that we refer to as the two. So um, you know, maybe your actions sometimes look like a two, but the thing that's driving you isn't necessarily that need to be loved and wanted. It's more that need to be at peace. So I'm gonna stop talking again. What's coming up for you? Anything that's coming up, I would love to hear your thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Where um I have been raised in a Christian church and I still practice that. And so that need to be a helper or caring, I've been brought up with that. Plus, it's just part of my nature. So that's double, double that. But I can see where the reason why I'm doing that is because I want peace in whatever that environment or atmosphere is. So that makes a lot of sense. And I can see how where you were saying, like, I might dip into the six when I'm stressed. I can totally see that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah, yeah. And again, like the it just comes down to the motive. And and that's what's so beautiful. And the thing that I just makes the Enneagram my favorite is because, yeah, you might look like a six sometimes, you might look like a two, you might look like a four or seven, you know, it that's you are in fact going to look like those numbers at some point in your life. Um, but again, the why behind those actions comes down to that core motive of peace, really inner peace and without conflict. So, how how are you feeling about that type nine being potentially a dominant type nine now?

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah, I feel good about that. I feel more secure and I can see, and just the validation that, like you said at the beginning, where we have all of the types within us, and different situations can bring out those different traits in us. Um, that makes so much sense because humans, we are so complex, and it really does depend on the situation and what our gut is saying about it and and what we know we need to do in different situations, all the while, though, like the driving force behind it. So I can see why in some instances I would act like a four or a seven, um, you know, but really it's that peace that I crave, which is so true. So I feel good about where we've landed.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah. And you know, something else, like once you start to understand, you know, get, you know, and I think we're there. Um, get some pretty some good confidence around, you know, it's I'm pretty sure it's this or this. Um, I always like to look at subtypes too, because are you familiar with that term?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Subtypes, yes, but I haven't really studied too much of them. I've seen some of the terminology around um of the different subtypes, but I haven't I haven't really paid much attention to them.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

They're they're just just quick crash course, like less than 30 seconds. They are three, um, they call them instinctual variants. It's kind of like your natural instincts that are self-preservation. So, you know, food, water, shelter, like that is always my focus. Or social, where it's like um being a part of a group is really important to you. Being able to read a room is a gift of yours. And then the last one is called sexual or one-on-one, where you're really great at creating those intimate, deep connections. And, you know, I can't say which one you are for sure, um, but it might be interesting to like explore those three and see which one starts to resonate because that's also going to affect how your nine is expressed. And as you were talking, some of the characteristics of the sexual nine were coming up. Um, kind of you had this ability to maybe access your anger a little bit more. I know we were talking about that earlier, and I've seen you on Instagram. Um, they may be a little bit more kind and shy and gentle and lack that assertiveness. So maybe some of that two energy. Um, but you know, they can also resemble a type four or a type six. So, because they also have this kind of um push-pull relationship with autonomy. Um, so there's, you know, there's definitely nine energy in there, but there may also be some things that, you know, once you start to dig in more about those subtypes, um, you'll learn even more about, you know, why the why behind those specific behaviors. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Okay, yeah, that makes total sense. And so I've made a little note to myself to start exploring those subtypes.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah, and you know, the this is these are really interesting too, because even if um you don't know your type yet, I find the subtypes really helpful. And this is this might be a great transition, Lindsay, um, into relationships because it's like if you value having a stocked refrigerator and you know, having all the tools, but make, you know, spending your money on tools and you know, that shelter and making everything, everything is safe and secure kind of that self-preservation energy. And then you're with somebody who is very social and wants to be out all the time, like you could see like the conflict potential there if you don't understand each other. So that's just another tool on your Enneagram tool belt to learn more about yourself and and understand about others as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Absolutely. And in my lessons that I teach at the local university here, I teach about love languages, but I can also see how the Enneagrams would be so helpful in not just learning your own type, but learning your um like your parents' type. If that's like my students are still usually living at home or something, and so like learning their parents' types or their siblings' types or their roommates' types, or your significant other, and that can be really illuminating for you, especially like you said, about conflict, because when we're in conflict, it's rarely about the thing that you're fighting about. Like for roommates, it's rarely about or anybody really, it's rarely about who took the trash out last or the trash is always being shoved down to max capacity or overflowing when and so then you have conflict about it. It's rarely about the trash, right? It's more about the underlying values, like you talked about. Like if I value having a stocked fridge because maybe when I was growing up I didn't, and now I'm at the I can I have the means to be able to do that. That's very important to me to feel safe, for example. But if your roommate doesn't really care and rarely goes grocery shopping or your significant other, then that can cause a lot of stress, but it's the underlying things that are happening there. And so it's so important in relationships to understand one another, whether it's your values or your Enneagram, what drives you, or your love language is how you feel loved um and how you show love in communication. It's so important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

It yes, it is. Yeah, and yeah, it's just understanding that, like, oh my gosh, somebody else is seeing this completely different. Like I thought that this was like common knowledge. Yeah, that is not. Um something else that you just reminded me of. I think it was with Sarah Small from Uncensored Empath, who I was talking to about this, but she was saying in college, her dad was probably he might have been um an Enneagram nine or he had some Enneagram nine energy because she's like, now that I know this about nine, she said he used to take a really long time to process decisions. So, like I would ask to go to the mall, and he would be sitting there for like minutes or hours thinking about it before he could give me a decision. Like, is it safe? Is this the right time? And she's like, I would get so frustrated. But she's like, I wish I would have known about like his ability to process, was just slower than mine. So I love what you said about like bringing this to your students and even having more understanding and empathy for for your parents too, because sometimes we it's all about you know understanding our kids, which is yes, very helpful. But I just I love that idea to like understand your parents better too.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Absolutely. Because then once we know, we're like, okay, I'm gonna take my dad this question, and I'm just to manage my own expectations, I know that I need to give him some time. So I shouldn't spring it on him five minutes before my friends are gonna pick me up. I should say, okay, tomorrow I'd like to go to the mall with so-and-so. What do you think about that? Or with a spouse or something for me? I would I, you know, I would like to have a girl's night. I'm gonna plan this and whatever. And you can have a guy's night, we can do our own thing with our friends. What do you think about that? And give them time to process, like you said, instead of springing it on them. And that can be so huge in communication. It's all about understanding someone and seeing them for who they are and what makes them them without judgment. And just understand that this is something that I teach my students too. Understand that we are all coming to our different communication experiences with vastly different backgrounds and and cultures that we grew up in, whether it's whether I lived next door to somebody and we're technically in like the same society culture, but the culture of our homes could be quite different. And so really getting to understand people and seeing them, that can it can still be difficult, you know, if that isn't what you are used to. But practicing that patience and that understanding and having that drive to get to know them because we love them and we want that connection, then that can really do wonders for your relationships and your communication in your relationships.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yes. And I know you talk a lot about um listening as being a very important part of the communication equation. And yes, and um and that is that is so true, like seeking to understand. And you share, I think it was like a quote graphic, something about um it's not about listening to reply, but listening to understand. Did I get that right or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, a lot of times, and you've probably experienced this on your listeners too, where you're sharing something and someone is like is responding before you've even gotten your sentence out, and you're like, well, no, that's not actually where I was going with that. They've they've been in their own head for whatever reason. This can be a lot of different things too. They've been in their own head and they are responding really quickly without listening fully to understand what you were going to say or even what you meant, or giving you the time to, like for Enneagram nines who maybe need time to process, giving them that space to process, like instead of interjecting or um trying to finish their sentence or something like that, which can really make you feel overlooked and insignificant, um, and not worthwhile what you're gonna say, you know. So really listening to understand and just being quiet. Like I have another of those story graphics coming out next week about how to apologize sincerely. And one of them is just like at the end, uh, there's like only three steps, and one of them is just be quiet, like stop talking after you've apologized sincerely. And and that can happen in the listening scenario too. Like maybe someone is a two and they're just desperate to be liked, and so they're like, Oh, I'm going to, I know a little bit about what they're talking about. So I'm gonna hurry and interject so that they know that I know about that experience too, and maybe I'm gonna be more liked.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

But but it's not doing anything for the person who's talking, and so it's oh my gosh, see how it's so complex.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yes, yeah, it it it is, it is, and and you're and you're right, like for the most part, I think nines probably do this pretty, pretty good, pretty well. Well, I don't know where my my uh grammar is on that, but yeah, do this okay. Um, but fours tend to be like excellent listeners and able to sit with you know difficult feelings and not try to fix anything. I think for the rest of us, it's like, oh, we want to be helpful, so like let's try and like problem solve. Um, or like let's like, oh no, think about this, but like at least like oh, sunny side. Um and that's not helpful either. You're so right. It's really frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah, I I used to be a silver lining person, and I still do personally try to look for silver linings um most of the time. Other times I do sit with my feelings, and I'm like, nope, I don't see a silver lining right now, and I'm okay with that. I need to sit with these other feelings. Eventually a silver lining will come, but right now it's not, and that's okay. But I used to do silver lining for my friends too. And one time one of my friends was dealing with something really horrific, and I was trying to silver lining it to help her. I thought I was helping, you know. And she was like, Lindsay, what I need from you right now is just to listen. Like I don't need to be fixed, I don't need to look for something that's brighter ahead. I just need to be heard. And I was like, oh my gosh, okay, I can do that. You know, that's how she needed to be helped in that moment was she needed me to just listen and and to have her experiences be seen, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

And that's a great reminder that, you know, sometimes you do just have to kind of like advocate for yourself, ask for what you need.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Um, rather than getting frustrated. Because you're right, like people's intentions tend to be, you know, pure and good, you know, especially if they're your friend or your family. It's like the intention is there, but the impact. You know, isn't necessarily like reflecting that intention. Yes. Um, and so yeah, if you just need someone to listen, preface the conversation, well, yeah, you just need you to listen. Um, I had an old boss who we like implemented a role just like that, Lindsay, on our team, because she was just like such a go-getter, and like she would just come in and you know, save the day. And um, she had gotten feedback of, you know, exactly like what your friend told you. And she was like, okay, like before you can sit down, she's like, I need you to tell me, like, are we problem solving or am I listening?

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Yeah, exactly. It's so helpful. And it and setting those boundaries really does bring safety and security into the relationship and it trusts, it builds trust because, like, when I say that to my friends or they say that to me, then I'm like, oh, okay, I'm being seen right now and this is creating a connection and I feel safe. If I'm saying I just need somebody to listen and hear me vent for a minute, and they do that, then I'm like, oh my gosh, now I trust you so much that I can bring anything else to you. And then vice versa, when I am able to be that for them, like if they come to me and they're like, no, I really need you to help me make a decision right now. When normally I'm like, I'm not gonna give you advice, I'll, you know, I'll talk with you through it for sure. And I'll help you try to um find your path of what feels good for you, but I'm not gonna tell you what to do. And if so, I rarely do that. But if they come to me and they're like, no, I need you to help me make a decision about this, then I'm like, okay, I'm in it, I'm in it for you. I'll help you, you know. Yes. So it's it's about creating those, and it's so hard sometimes to ask for what we want, especially when we have tried in the past and it hasn't gone well, or we've been overlooked, or we felt invisible, or like that our needs didn't matter. It can be really hard to do it again. And so I just want to give um kudos to any one of your listeners who has been in that situation and is going to try again, because it can be really hard and vulnerable to do that. And you absolutely deserve to have your needs met. So go for it. Yeah, if you feel comfortable, you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

I'm glad you brought that up because I know you do you do talk a lot about self-worth in in your communication education. And then um you had talked about you know self-compassion um in that way too. Like, is what should we know about self-compassion when it comes to communicating?

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yeah, so I feel like self-compassion is the place to start with so many things. Like right now in the world, where whenever this airs, there's going to be turmoil in the world. Um, right now it's airing, or we're recording during the um the turmoil and horrific things happening in Afghanistan. And next week or the week after, the week after that, it'll be either the same or something else. And so I feel like what the world needs is compassion. And the way that we can do that is through starting with ourselves and being compassionate to ourselves, and then it will have a ripple effect outward. So self-compassion consists of three different things. One is self-kindness, and that directly counters self-critical thoughts, so which a lot of us can do very well. Like we get gold medals in being self-critical and in believing it. So, self-compassion, the self-kindness component can can counteract that and really help you feel um at peace with who you are authentically and realize the truths of what makes you you rather than the self-critical thoughts that come in that are total lies. And then the second pillar of self-compassion is mindfulness and so being present in the moment. And what that can help them with is you can really tap into your gut feeling or your intuition, or you can start to understand yourself more. You can start to see what your needs are and what are and are not being met. And so being present in the moment can really help that and so many other things. But um, so that presence of mind can also help you in your relationships and knowing your instincts about other people or paying attention to their nonverbal communication, like their tone of voice, their body language, um, their inflection, their pace at which they're talking, different things like that, you can start to pay attention to those things and really see more than what they're saying, because 65% or so, the studies vary, but around 65% of our communication is nonverbal. And so being able to be mindful of our own, but also being in the present moment with others can really help us see some of that nonverbal communication and get the whole picture. And so good, that can help us know what to ask and like how to listen better and just so many things. And then the third component of self-compassion is remembering our common humanity. And that means that we know, like when we are being self-critical, we can know if we stop for a minute and think, I am not the only one that has ever felt afraid. I'm not the only one that has ever felt abandoned. Like there are more people like me, and that can bring community and connection, even if we're not reaching out, just knowing that there are other people in the world that have felt these things and have experienced similar things to me can help you feel less alone. And so starting with that self-compassion, it has so many offshoots of greatness. Um, but in a nutshell, that's what self-compassion is. And that's why I feel like it's so important, whatever Enneagram type you are, to really have that self-compassion for yourself, because there are going to be core fears for you and core motivations and things that stress you out and stuff like that. And if you can be more self-compassionate rather than beating yourself up about those fears or those stresses, for example, then you'll be able to find that peace and you'll be able to tap into your true authenticity and communicate better and have better connections and feel more fulfilled and all of these things. Um, and so that's why I feel like self-compassion is so huge to start with.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Oh, okay. I'm taking notes. And I love, oh my share, two things. Um, the common humanity part, just remembering that like you're not the only one that's ever felt that way, I think just kind of puts it in perspective. Like I've never thought to think that before. Um, because in the moment it feels so intense. Like, oh my God, I'm so angry, or I'm so sad.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Yes, I'm over. Feeling so alone or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Yeah. Yes. Oh, and then um I uh this is like a common struggle for for me personally, is that mindfulness being in the present moment. I am living most of my life in the future. And I, you know, my work is to come back here to the present. And I'll just share, like being very honest. Um, even like when I so I forget exactly how you said it, Lindsay, but some of the things that you were saying made me think, like, yeah, I, you know, I even want to practice that in these podcast interviews because like I used to really stress out about, oh my gosh, I gotta make sure I have my list of questions ready. And I can never be stumped or I always have to know what to ask. And I think I'm getting better the more that you do it, being in that present moment. But there is still part of me where it's like, I'm not even, I can't even listen to what they're saying because I have to ask a great question right after this, you know? Yeah. And so that's just like a very practical, real life example. And I I absolutely do that in probably all areas of my life. Um, but that's just an example for myself. So I I appreciate that reminder as well to like come back to that present and you know, practice that active listening and listen. Oh, what did you say? I mean, I need to make a quote card. Listen to understand, not reply. Is that what it was?

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Okay, yeah. And you know, I sometimes I will say this sometimes sitting in the present moment can be very uncomfortable. And that deserves your attention as well. So, for example, um, a couple of years ago, actually this month in August of 2019, I was diagnosed with endometrial cancer. And I, it like shook my whole world. And I did not want to be in the present moment. I wanted it to be done, I wanted it to be over with, like I wanted all of these fears and feelings to be gone. Um, and so there are some moments where it can be really painful to sit in the present moment. And so, or like if you're in an abusive relationship, that's not fun. It's not comfortable, it's horrible to sit in the present moment. And so I would also give yourself the grace for those moments that it's really hard and you need to distract yourself. That is also perfectly okay. I wanted to make sure that um our listeners understand that as well. When didn't I want them to think that, oh, to be self-compassionate, I have to always be in the present moment. No, like if it's helpful for you, then yes. And a lot of the times it will be, but there will be instances where it will be super uncomfortable and not at all helpful. And so in those moments, you can lean on the other two pillars of self-kindness and remembering that you're not alone. And then when you feel like you're ready to be in the present moment and see what you can learn and how you can grow and how to hold your emotions that you're feeling with tenderness and grace, then do that. Um, but not in every situation are you gonna feel like it's helpful for you to be present.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

I am so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that. Um, because you're right, like there is so much like, oh, live in the present, live in the present. But then it's like, yeah, there's some really crappy things that may be happening in the present. And so um it's this like what is it? It's like defense mechanism versus coping strategy. And it's like, as long as you're being intentional with it, like you can absolutely use it as a tool. Um so, like, if you yeah, use that future focus energy or you know, be nostalgic when you need to. So that, oh Lindsay, that was so good. I'm really glad you shared that. Um, I feel like we'll we'll have to do something else at some point because I know that you have like so many other great things around effective communication and as business leaders and um, you know, business owners that work with clients, I was thinking that so much of what you share is like very applicable um to being present in those one-on-ones or in the group coaching sessions or being present with your team. So we'll have to do something else again. But for for the purposes of this specific interview, um, is there anything else just to kind of start to wrap things up that you would want to share about effective communication um in both our work or our life?

SPEAKER_00 56:01

Yeah, I would say remembering the complexity of humanity, whether it is at work or um in our personal lives, in our communities, what have you, just remembering the complexity and approaching people with compassion and curiosity. That is the number one rule in my classroom at my um at the university here. And I talk about that from day one and I bring it up a lot, and the students talk about it a lot too, is that approaching people with compassion and curiosity can really help your communication go far with various people, whether they are your family or your coworkers or people in the community that you're meeting for the very first time, um, and you might not understand their decision making, that approaching them with compassion and curiosity removes any kind of judgment that you might have and can really help them and help you in that situation. So I can go on and on about approaching people with compassion and curiosity as well. But the main thing is it's done without judgment. And um, if you want to learn more about that or any other kind of effective communication tools, then you can find me over on Instagram or my website. It's um on Instagram, it's at with Lindsay Bennett, and that's Lindsay's spilled with an AY. And then on my website is the same, with LindsayBennet.com.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Okay. And then I know you also have a masterclass coming up that we'll link to as well. Is that correct? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

So that starts on Tuesday. So I don't know when this is gonna air. Oh okay. I will have a freebie that they can always so when the masterclass is gone, there'll be more masterclasses that come. Um the one is gonna be about self-compassion, self-care, self-worth, all of that together or separate. We'll see how it goes. But um, because self-compassion could taught could take weeks. Um, and I love it. But there is a freebie. So I have a freebie that people can go access on Instagram or on my website, and that is how to it's four steps to find peace in conflict. So four ways that you can communicate, four tools you can have for peace in conflict. So there's a freebie guide there. Um, it talks about this communication um model that I've put together called communicating with care. And so I apply the four pillars of care, which you can also find out about on Instagram. I use those to approach conflict. And it's compassion, authenticity, reflection, and emotional intelligence. So there's a free guide on there that walks you through all of those steps and practical ways that you can apply each of those steps to your next conflict, whether it's internal or with people in your family or coworkers or whatnot. And that is at withlinseybennet.com forward slash freebie, or you can find it on Instagram at the link in my bio.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Okay, and we'll put that in the show notes here too, so they can easily click on that as well for sure. So have that down. And then as we wrap up, I just have a couple rapid fire questions. Um, I try not to comment on these, and that's why I call them rapid fire. Sometimes it's hard not to, but um, so if you need to, you know, answer as long or as short as you want to, but um, I'd love to hear something that you are learning right now.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

Okay, right now I am learning unfortunately all about narcissistic personality disorder. So that's I am learning about that, and it is very revealing about um people in my life. So that's why I'm learning. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 59:57

What's something that you're unlearning?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Oh, I'm trying to unlearn how to be a people pleaser. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

And we there's a lot of talk about finding your best, like living your best life. What does that mean to you, Lindsay, when someone says, oh, just live your best life? What's what do you what comes to mind?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Yeah, what comes to mind immediately is that I'm traveling for months in Paris and I have not a care in the world. But yes, I would love that. I've been able to travel, I've been fortunate enough to travel in France and it's been lovely. I would like to be independently wealthy and travel forever. But in terms of living my best life day to day, I would say it would be reflecting on who I truly am, authentically, genuinely, and living that like whatever it is, living an authentic life to me feels like my best life.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

Let me just say the seven energy in me that will go on that trip with you. Yes, I want to go on all the places. Um, and I love I love it, I love what you said. That's that could be like a very nine best life too, by the way. So um not to put you in a box, but that that sounds that makes sense. Um and then what sort of I this group loves a good book recommendation. What what's a book you're reading, whether it's like or have read in business, personal development, communication, like anything that you think might be a helpful resource for us?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

Yes. Well, as a nine, um, reading the book called The Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute has been so helpful. It's set in a novel type um of a book, but it teaches you personal development lessons around war and peace. So having a heart at war or having a heart at peace. And it walks you through these characters' lives and the lessons that they learn. Oh my gosh, it is so timely, especially right now. It's so fantastic. And it's the Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

Okay, okay. I'm writing that one down. Oh, see, I love this selfishly, is one of my favorite questions because I love books. And so, um, and it's fun just to hear about new ones that you don't always know about. So yeah. Um, well, listen, Lindsay, I just first of all, thank you so much for being so open and and vulnerable around, you know, starting to uncover your type. Um, I know some of those questions, it feels like you're like in an interrogation, should have warned you. Um, but you know, I I like to think about this whole process as more like um like you're an archaeologist and you're just like slowly and carefully like dusting off those bones to like start to uncover your type. For some people, though, it might be like a detective where you just like, oh, I I found it. Here it is, right here. Yeah. Um, but for most of us, I don't know, even most, but for others, it is like a slower uncovering. And so those questions and those reflections, like they're all part of the process, whether you figure out your type in a minute or a year, like you're doing not doing anything wrong. So I think that'll be like really inspiring and helpful for people. So thank you for being willing to go through the interrogation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

It didn't feel inter like an interrogation. You were great throughout and and the questions were really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

Okay, okay, good. Yes. Questions are like the they say, like good, the quality of your questions is the quality of your life. So always love a good question. Um, and then thanks for what you shared too about you know effective communication. And I'm looking forward to um learning more from you myself. I'm really glad that we met. I think we met on Instagram. Is that good? Yeah. Okay. Um, so that just goes to show I know some of us have social media fatigue sometimes and be anxiety ridden, but um, there is so much, there's real people behind those numbers. So thankful that we got connected.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

Yeah. Me too. Thank you so much. This has been a fun interview and a great opportunity. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

I appreciate you, lady. And um, I will probably see probably see you over on the social media. Yep. Thanks for being here. Bye, Lindsay. Bye. Before you head out, I have two announcements. One is if you are also stuck between two or three different Enneagram types, then it would be helpful to sit down with me one-on-one to help you uncover and get closer to determining your dominant type. I would love to have you inside a know your number results reading where we spend um time going over your Enneagram assessment, what it means, help you get clarity on your dominant type, and then some key ways to use it moving forward. And that is at Sarah Lyn Co.com forward slash know your number. The link to book your session is in the show notes here. And then the second thing is just a reminder that the three-part wealth building series that I'm partnering with my money mentor Elizabeth Ralph on is coming to an end this week. So she has three parts, um, three different videos that you can register for, watch the replay, get caught up. And this is so helpful as an entrepreneur. I think it really helps us move away from, you know, getting so um, just really latching onto the identity as a coach, as a web designer, as a bookkeeper, and really helps us put on a CEO hat because we're thinking about our lives in a much bigger way. Yes, we want to grow our business, but ultimately so many of us have started because we want that financial freedom and by investing and learning how to do it in a way that really feels good to you, um, which I is what I love about Elizabeth, Elizabeth's approach is mixing mindset, spirituality with this specific strategy, saving you time from having to figure out how to set up a stock. What does that mean? What are the different ways to invest? On day three of her three-part training series, she walks you through a simple wealth building series. She is going to be opening her doors to her financial story framework next week. I am an affiliate for that and I will be talking more about that. Um, but in the meantime, I would love for you to go through that wealth building series. If you do nothing else other than just watch that, I think you're gonna get so much from it. Um, so I hope you enjoy it. I hope you get registered, and I will see you next week for another episode on the Enneagram MBA podcast.