SPEAKER_00 0:00

Oh my goodness, this was such a fun episode as one would expect talking about sex and the Enneagram. And it was a little bit longer of an episode. So I want to jump into it right away, but I don't want to skip over our guest today and tell tell you a little bit more about her because it's kind of like we're talking to an Enneagram celebrity here, with having artists and author Anne Gadd on this episode. Um, she has been writing books for decades now. She's on, I believe, 36 books that have been translated into 16 different languages across a variety of nonfiction genres, genres. There we go, can't talk. Um, and she has a um, she's actually the author of the Enneagram and Eating book that was our inspiration for episode four with Tamisha Campbell. And she is the inspiration behind this um episode today, and with her book Sex in the Enneagram, a guide to passionate relationships for the nine personality types. She has a new book that recently came out called Paint by Numbers, Art in the Enneagram, How to Use Your Type to Become More Creative, A Better Artist. Um, and then she also has a really fun kids series um that is now on Amazon as well. And it's there's it's the it's a book for each type for kids, and they have like this fun name. And so um I think you're gonna get a lot out of those. But Anne is also an um alternative therapist. She also is a presenter at the International Enneagram Conference, and she is a certified integrative Enneagram practitioner, so lots of knowledge, not lots of wisdom, lots of different um practices and experiences that she is bringing to this conversation. And I will add, she's also a very accomplished artist with sales of over 5,500 paintings, both locally and abroad. So what a fun guest and what a fun topic. You might be thinking, like, okay, this is a fun topic, but what the heck does this have to do with business? And I wanted to tell you really quickly, just not that I need to justify this topic to you, but um, Anna and I actually connected over on Instagram when I had tagged her in a post that I did for the Enneagram and Eating and just highlighted that she was the inspiration behind that. And she had reached out and said, if there's any other book that you that I've written that you would want to do an interview on, let me know. Which was so generous. Of course, I was like, um, yes, please. And so when I was looking at what book I thought would be fun, I was like, oh my gosh, yes, we have to do this topic. And I will tell you, there is, we've all heard the book Think and Grow Rich, the Napoleon Hill book. He has an entire chapter dedicated to sex. I think it's a little outdated in some areas, but there are pages and pages in this book dedicated to this topic. And he he goes on to talk about, you know, how sex and love and relationships are can be the driver behind creativity and um momentum and inspiration. And so if you want to go back to that book, you can you can read all about what he says on that, his take on that. But I thought it was very, it's actually very relevant, not just because of that, but because our relationships, our personal life do have so much impact on how we show up in our business on the day-to-day, what ideas we're coming up with, the creativity that we bring. So lots of overlap and gets into all of that. So without further ado, enjoy this episode on Sex in the Enneagram. Welcome to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your gifts, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. Each week you'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others like your future clients, and help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gifts and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. Okay, so I just got done um talking to Ann before I hit record here, and I said, Ann, you're my first Enneagram celebrity. And uh I'm really excited to have you on, Anne. You have been, you've written 22 books, and you are a um 26. 36. I'm a 36 now. Okay. Okay, 36 now. I don't know what I was reading before, but oh my goodness. Um, and so we'll talk more about your latest one at the end here. Um, but first of all, just welcome. Um I'm excited to have you here and you're joining us. Tell us where you're joining us from.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Um I live in Cape Town, South Africa, which is kind of pretty much near the further southern point of Africa.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Okay, okay, yes. And uh so that's so cool that we we can do this. Um you have been studying the Enneagram for a long time. Um, how did you how did you get into it? Like what brought you to the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

I've probably spent my life being a workshop junkie. So if there was a workshop on astrology, I was there. If there was one on body street, I was that one was me, numerology, the whole lot. And I got very into Reiki, I enjoyed that, but then my brother gave me this book. He borrowed it from a friend on the Enagram. And I read it and did what most people often do is I mistyped myself and then didn't relate to it and said, no, really, this is just another personality profiling system, as I've heard so many people say to me. And so I wasn't particularly interested. Um, and then one day I was at a bargain book sale and I picked up another book on the Enneagram and I just started reading about the five. I thought this is incredible. This is my husband. The man came. I mean, everything was just the the researching, the this is like somebody knows him and is writing about it. So I got very excited about it, and I I bought the book and I came back and I I revisited the other book, which I then got. And I started realizing that wow, I could see other people very clearly. My own journey personally took a bit longer to find myself because I'm a nine and I got mislaid on the path, if you like, because they said nines are the the story that came across was nines are lazy. And I thought, well, I'm not lazy. I mean, five and a half thousand paintings, um, 36 books, that no, there's no, you know. So I dismissed it, but I misunderstood what they were meaning by sloth. So mine was a sloth to show up to myself, not necessarily slothful and not working. So as I say, my own journey took a I sort of deviated to seven and six, and and yeah, but but when I found myself, it was just this like wow, I've come home, I get why I do what I do, and I get why other people do what they do. And it was just instead of judging people for the way they behave, it was more a case of having compassion. I get why my son gets irritated every time I try to get him to study and he rebels against me, you know. I I understand that now, but but it's and I think that I hadn't come across anything in all the things I had studied and learned that's so was so insightful. And it didn't just that's the beauty of the Enneagram, it doesn't just say you're there and put you in a box, it shows you the box you're in and gives you a path to get out of the box. And so the parts of myself that I wasn't exactly enamored with, I realized why I was doing those things and I and I and I I could move beyond them. And I think that's the difference from Myersbury's and and other personality profiling systems. It actually shows you how to grow, it doesn't just define this is who you are and this is what you're gonna stay forever. Sure, your type will remain the same, but the health within that type can change. So that was how I got into it.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah, I that's one of my favorite parts too, is just not, you know, so many of the other tests are like, oh, this is who you are, these four letters, the these five strengths, and like that's just kind of it. It's a static picture, whereas the Enneogram is so fluid and there's different levels of health. Um I have I have been talking to just randomly, um, it just so happens, several nines in the last two weeks before we're recording this. And um they've been teetering between am I a six, am I a nine, am I a two, am I a nine? Um and I think some of the parts of the nine do trip them up, one of them misunderstanding the sloth piece and like, I'm not, I'm not lazy, exactly what you said. Um, and then also one of the things another person was kind of struggling with was this that idea of like merging, and sometimes nines sometimes lose themselves, lose their own uh opinions and not understand who they are. Um, how have like how has the Enneagram kind of helped you maybe grow out of that if that was something you experienced, um, and to come into you know having your own opinions and thoughts and being comfortable putting them out there? Because that's a big fear that all kinds of people in in my community I know sometimes struggle with.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

I believe that you know, from a nine perspective, you kind of think that if you create a conflict in some way or you pin your colours to the post, if you if you stand up and make an opinion of some sort, A, you're gonna create conflict, which you don't want to do, and B, that everyone's gonna hate you, all the people who love you are gonna walk out, and you're gonna be left alone in the world with with no one there, not even anyone to fight with, you know. So I think there's that big fear, and I think it's we it's not that we don't have opinions, it's that we're reluctant to share them and we question them. Do I really think this about that? What do I think? You know, so from a sexual point of view, you could say someone would say, Well, what what do you like? I don't know. I mean, how am I supposed to know? You know, so it's that kind of it's it's that it's that thing. So I think through the Inagram one one learns to stand back a little bit and say, actually, what is my opinion here? And then I've learned to sort of tentatively voice it and then look to see where the fallout's gonna be, you know, and then sometimes there isn't a fallout, and then you kind of get a bit braver and and you and and you sort of do the next thing. But I think it's a learning process. I don't think it sort of happens for most people instantly overnight. I think it's a almost like a testing process that you go through. And then I think it's very fortunate because you can as a nine you can draw on your eight wheels, and eights are very confrontational, and eights are not afraid to say it like it is. In fact, they can't bear it if people don't. So I started testing that part of me with eights, funny enough, by realizing if I was with an eight, that they weren't gonna like this wishy-washy stuff. So I then would make um an extreme effort with a client or something to to meet them face on and give them the same in-your-face um way of speaking that they were looking for. And we are all alive today and the world hasn't collapsed, except for COVID, I suppose. But but it it it yeah, it's a learning process. And I think I think you also learn to deny your own needs competing. So it gets the ridiculous point that I'll be working and uh I'll kind of really be thirsty, but I won't actually go and get a glass of water because I'll just want to finish this or do this. Everything else takes on a role of all importance. So part of the lesson of my nine-ish self is to say, actually, you're thirsty. Go and get a glass of water. I mean, it seems such a simple thing, but it's very relevant. Take time off, you know, to for yourself. It's not always for other people and your kids, and and you know, actually gift yourself something that really inspires you rather than what tires you. Hang out with people who celebrate you rather than tolerate you, you know, it's all those little things that that nine's kind of and I think all of us to degree because remembering we're all part, we're all intrinsically all the numbers. And if you take tri-types into account, then even more so, you know, because my tritype is seven, so I have got a lot of seven. I wasn't completely out of field when I went there, and two, so you know, then you can draw on all those aspects to best serve you. So if I go to a party, oh boy, that seven comes with me. But in my work, there's probably more two and nine that comes up, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yeah, well, and I uh I love what you said. Um, I wrote down this is like a quote like, look at what inspires you versus tires you. And I think that's great advice for for all of us, but yeah, especially especially the nines, and then just remembering that we do have all those nine types inside of us, and it's just becoming more self-aware and being able to tap into the other numbers when the situation warrants it. Um, last question I want to ask you, just kind of on general Enneagram, is a lot of people um listening to this are newer to the Enneagram. They're trying to figure out what's it, what is it, what's my type. What advice would you have for somebody other than maybe it is just taking a quiz, but other than um just taking a quiz to start to understand your type and and maybe some things to be aware of because you had mentioned you mistyped at first and just felt like it wasn't relevant. Um, so any any guidance or advice on those of us who are just starting to uncover our dominant Enneagram type?

SPEAKER_01 15:14

I would let go for the thought that more is better in this particular instance. So the more sources you can draw from friends, family, um, various different tests. You know, a lot of tests are claiming 100% accuracy. No, no, no, no. Um, I have a lot of people who've come to my workshops from various accurate tests only to find that in fact that they are not that type of thing, you know. So I think it really does help because you see, it's like that jihari's window. There's a lot of our behavior that we don't see in ourselves. Other people see it. I mean, me numb out, oh please, I am nothing like that at all, you know. Um you know, or or one night might say, of course I'm open to lots of different opinions, you know. Um so we we don't see our stuff, but somebody else who's close to us will. So it could be a colleague or partner, or and then tests also help and just observation, you know. Um, and I think people make the mistake of worrying that what if they got their type wrong, that the world will come to a standstill. Actually, I loved the time that I spent as a six and a three and a seven because I really got to know those types well, because I sort of hung out with them, spent time with them. And now I feel I have a much deeper understanding of those types than I did. And just when I was thinking, you know, most of the types I'm really very familiar with on a personal level, only one I'm not is a four. So I go for a walk and I bump into this woman, I vaguely met someone, and we become great friends, and you know, it turns out she's a four. So now I'm getting a more full of a four experience, you know. So I think, and and I think that that's so good because I think you learn to, and in my kiddies books, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to teach children to appreciate the gifts that each person has, or be those gifts different from the ones that you might have.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yes, yes, okay. Um, that's great. And it is just a process, it's not like a test, and you, like you said, do you just get back results? Um, and it takes time, but that is part of the process. Um, okay, so Ian, we had we had connected on Instagram and we were talking about um what book maybe to talk to to revolve this interview around. And I have in my hand now sex in the Enneagram book. Tell me before we get into this, what inspired you to write a book about sex in the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I have this place I go to in my garden is a hammock, and it's my thinking place. So I was lying in my because there's it's like thinking is like fishing, it gives you a reason to lie around and do nothing, you know. So I was in my thinking place and I thought, you know, nobody's really tackled sex. In the inner game, they've tackled relationships, maybe love, whatever, but but not sex. And I thought that's the way just as in art, the way we have sex is a mirror for how we live our lives. And I don't believe that you can have somebody who has a very unhealthy approach to sex who is very healthy in their pentagram or emotional spiritual life. I believe they're all linked. So I thought that perhaps we could get to it was another way to get to people to understand where areas how they could grow. It was it was something that let's face it, there's not a person alive where sex hasn't at some stage been a painful emotional experience, um, been a joyous experience or whatever. So it's something that is very much intrinsic to all animals of which we are. And so I thought it would be a really interesting road to to go down. And so that's how it started. And then I got the idea about the, you know, I was thinking about the hornian triads, and I suddenly realized how those definitely related to the way we approach sex. So then I had the foundation of the book, if you like. That's sort of researching and writing.

unknown 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Okay, and we're gonna get in because you have some really fun names for each of the types. So we'll get into that, but I do want to talk about um maybe this is the the four the foreplay part. Um, I love how you named your book, your the titles. Um, or actually, this is in the the threesome chapter, I think, where you just mentioned um the Horvarian um triad, the that grouping. For those of us who have no idea what that means, um can you just tee that up for us and then tell us how that overlays with what we're this discussion that we're about to get into?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Sure. In nature or in the universe, there are three main forces: an active force, a passive force, and a reconciling force. So I would give the example of let's say playing tennis. So there's the active force, the person hitting the ball, the passive force being the racket, and the reconciling force being the ball. So those subtypes are formed in the enneagram. I call them different things because if you talk about compliance in sex, for instance, then people get the wrong idea.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Hey, go for that one, they're compared. Um so I so I use the active um advancing retreating uh and and then conditional. And I found that different types, if you like, or they went about getting sex in one of those three different ways according to their type. So for instance, for an example, the conditional group of which one type ones, uh type ones for those who don't know, are um very black or white in their approach to life. Things are right or though. Wrong. They tend to have strong opinions about things, they believe there are ways to do things, and they have this feeling as if they're here for a purpose to reform the earth as well as perhaps themselves and others to improve things, make them better. So when it comes to sex, they believe that sex is conditional to how good a job they're doing in those areas. So if I do this and I must do that and I'm responsible and blah blah blah, then I actually deserve sex, which is different from a two, who's also a conditional type. But twos want to help others, they mother's little helper, they it's all about the other, which sounds very noble, but there is a shadow side to that as well. So twos, it's all about how much I've done for you. You know, I've made the supper, I've cleaned this, I've put your favorite coffee out for you know on the table for you, whatever. So now I've done all those things. So okay, now how about a bit of whoopee, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah. Yeah. I just yeah, I deserve it now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah, I'll bring it on. You know, now I've done these things for you, you know. Um, and then if you take a six, it would be different. Six would be I've been loyal, I've been faithful, um, I've been very responsible, I've worked very hard for us as a couple, so I've um earned a good income. So it's all about those things that a six then feels, well, now I, you know, because I've done all those things, um, and I've been loyal to you and so on, I I deserve sex now. But it's all about having to do something to get that reward. Okay, so that's where the conditional that's where the conditional type comes in, yeah. Um, should we talk about the other types or yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Please do. Yeah, I think this is good.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

So then we have the advancing types, the types who are the more confrontational enagram types. So you're gonna look at a three now. Three is really um my children's book. I call the three Sally Star. They want to be the stars, they want to shine. So they want you to be attracted to them because of their achievements. So look at me, look at all I've done. How can you not possibly fall for me? Because I'm a famous musician, actress, I've CEO of a company when I'm 22, whatever. Yeah. Um, look how many orgasms I've had, you know. I kept it going for so many items. So that those are those are the three. So it's all about um achievement, and they're hoping then to impress you with their achievements. Sevens, it's all about someone was saying yesterday that sevens walk around like with their third eye here, they're just looking up in the heavens for the magic. Where's the next exciting thing? You know, and that's how sevens are charismatic, they're dynamic, they're exciting, they're fun to be with. The seven walks into a room and you're immediately attracted to their to their personality, they're garrulous, they they um they walk, they're exciting, you know. It's like, come, let's leave this boring party. I know this fantastic little bistro somewhere at the back there, these tables, and you can have this amazing cocktail, whatever. You know, so they woo with excitement and the next best thing. So the other confrontational type is the eight. Eights like to meet the fire with fire, so they are you know, hi, how are you doing? You want to, you know, I don't know very direct, they're very direct, they say it like it is, and you know, by the way, a lot of them will get away with that kind of behavior because sex is about confidence, and eights are extremely confident. And I think I say in the book that of all the types, male or female, eights get more sex than anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

So oh my gosh, that's so funny, and it makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, because they're very they're very upfront, and they don't mind if they get rejected. So if you say, no way, it's you know, and they very remember that their passion in life is um is is is lust, they go after what they want with a directness, so it doesn't matter that he or she might be married or the CEOs, whatever. If they see something they want, they go after it, and the rules don't matter because AIDS make rules for other people, not for themselves. You must follow their rules, but you mustn't follow, you know, um, they don't have to follow the rules. So eights will go after everything with a passion, um, and they're very gregarious and um they're very generous, big hearts. Um in a way, the romantics as well, they know how to spice life up. So that would be how they advance, you know. That simply because they're in the room, you'll be attracted to them. You can't miss an eight in a room, and the probably the same goes for threes and sevens as well, probably slightly less so for threes, but definitely for sevens as well. So now you get the types who are more retreating.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

So they would retreat to get what they want. So if we took a four four's, and they don't like me for saying this, or anyone else for saying it does that matter, but they play this kind of push-pull thing, so they look like exotic, beautiful um enigmas on the side of a party, just standing there, not in the main throng of things. They want to draw you towards them with their exoticness, with their difference, with their specialness, whatever it is. And then having reeled you in, there's that awful feeling that everyone else's relationship is better. Surely I'm missing something here. Surely this isn't this isn't the business, you know. I thought it was, but maybe it's not. So then there's rejection. Like, for instance, a four I know recently has met this wonderful person, and the first thing they do is then take themselves off on a holiday somewhere. And I said, But you didn't plan the holiday. Yes, I just feel I needed space. I said, but you were just telling me, you know, I don't get this, but that's a fall, you know, because they want to see if they go far away. Maybe in the distance there'll be a certain amount of melancholy, and in that melancholyness, they'll feel this enormous emotion and this feeling, and the missing will enhance those feelings rather than having someone throttling in the bed next to you, kind of thing. So that's what falls do, they sort of move in and move out, and reject and accept, and you know, it's a flowing kind of thing. So, fives, on the other hand, are fives are intensely cerebral types, so all about knowledge is power. The more I know, the safer I'll be. So I need to know more, and I want to be the person who knows. So, fives of all the types will convince themselves the most that they don't have to be in a relationship. Okay, and what they'll do is they'll go into a relationship and then it'll all become too overwhelming. She's the whatever is too demanding of my time, they want too much from me, they want my resources, and I don't, you know, remember that their wounding is avarice. So avarice is not so much it's wanting to hold on to what little you have because you don't think there's any more. So fives then don't want you to take up their time and and their space and their, you know, um recently recall a somebody moved in with a five and into their house, big house, and was given a shelf for their things because the five didn't want them to get too comfortable, you know, don't take up too much of my space here.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

So oh, that's hilarious!

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yeah, so you know, they they they often have long distance relationships because that works for them, and they often can um withdraw in a way by compartmentalizing their lives. So I'll give you an example of a five who's having a relationship with um somebody um in a different co on a different continent. So finally the day arrives, and the person um they they're in bed together, and the five leans over, picks up a photograph of the person, and fondly kisses the photograph, but the real person is in bed with them. But the the ritual it felt safer to kiss the photograph than it did the person, because the per the the photograph was never going to take over their lives and be claustrophobic, all right. So a lot of the times if fives are in relationships, particularly fives who have children, it's an enormous gift to their partner because it's come at a huge sacrifice um to them in terms of giving up that precious time and resources that they have.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Gosh, I never thought about it like that as like the parent. You know, it's interesting. I'm a seven and um, when you were talking about, oh, I know my place has a fun cocktail, I was like, oh yeah, I feel like um I feel a lot of this five. I I have been like there's a lot of things about a five where as like extroverted and like jubilant, joyous than I am and like to be around other people, like as you're describing a five, I'm like, yes, don't take over my don't encroach, and it probably has more to do with like the the freedom, the need for freedom and options. Um but yeah, I'm just I'm like, gosh, this sounds like me a lot.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

It's a lot like me. But sevens go to five.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

So that's where that's coming from. So that's where they both don't want their freedom impacted on. I'm married to a five, so I'm very well aware of that, you know. Um, and it's sort of we're both artists, so it sort of suits us to work the way we do because we both have separate studios, could never share studios because nine's also quite independent as well. Yes. So it works, but if he had somebody coming in every five minutes wanting to chat and bring tea, it would drive him crazy.

unknown 34:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

I feel that, I feel that.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Um, okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

What are you doing now?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

What are you painting now? No, not gonna work.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

We're not, yeah, I can't talk right now. Later, later. Uh okay, so the last one is the nine, yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

So the nines are the most wonderful of all the Enneagram types, just putting it out there. Um I'm joking.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

No bias, no bias or anything.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

No, no, no, no bias, no bias. No. Nines withdraw by numbing out. So because they don't want their little candy floss worlds disturbed in any way, um, they can tend to be in a relationship but not be in a relationship. So I'm here, physically present, but I'm not present. And they can find different ways to numb out, it might be sudoku, it might be the TV, it might be loving the pets, or it might be work. Um, or completely immersing themselves in another person or merging with a job, or you know, there's so many ways, but basically it's a form of narcotonization that you really you you're aware of what's going on around you, but you kind of tend to ignore it because it upsets your peace. And ironically, in doing that, you create anger, the very thing you don't want to, because people get frustrated. So you create the thing, but that's the same with all the types, we all create what we don't want to create through our behavior until we become aware of it, and then we can we can make the decision not to do that. So it doesn't mean when I say withdrawing that nines are not sexual at all, they can be, in fact, they're one of the they're probably the most sensual of all the types, but it's in that communication that they can just withdraw and and like the lights on, but no one's home. Yeah, which is very hard to live with, yeah, because yeah, you want that person and they're not there, yeah. I'm just here in my happy little world, all is well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Yeah, I've been, I think I think I've had an ex-boyfriend or two that's maybe been enough. Um, so I I get that. Yeah. Um, okay, before we get into the type specific, um, I have like I have a question or two for each type that we'll get into. For those of us who don't know our type, who are still exploring our type, I find that the the subtypes, the um instincts are really helpful. And you had talked about the social self-preservation and sexual instinct. Could you just give us, could you had also talked about you know things to watch out for if you are a social and your partner is self-preservation, some of those, so I think that could be really helpful in just having like a general understanding of what the heck that even is, and then um be being aware of that until you you know discover your type, because right here there's only three options, so that might be a great place to start.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Okay, um, the study of the instincts or instinctual biases is a completely separate study to the enneagram, but it's very helpful when we lay it over the enneagram because it takes the understanding of ourselves to an even deeper level. So if we look back in our history, um, and I'm going back to ancient land, we had ways of survival, and that's really what your instincts are. They most of the time you're completely unaware that you're acting from those instincts. And we all have all three, so we all have self-preservation, obviously, we all have social and we all have sexual, but they are layered or stacked in different ways, and that plays a very big part. In fact, I think more so than your type when it comes to relationships. So, brief overview of what they are. Self-preservation, pretty self-explanatory, but it's all about the focuses on security, home, um, being safe in my environment, um, earning an income. Um, they tend to be more serious than the other than the other two instinctual types, um, more solid citizens, you know, um, because everything society tells you is important to you know, get a home, be secure, whatever, you know. Then you have your um social types, and social types are more about how you navigate socially. So, if you think about it, as primitive man, you would have needed a shelter and food, and that would have been self-preservation. Once you had that, you needed a tribe, people that you could kind of because in the tribe there was safety. If you were thrown out of the tribe, the wolves would get you, whereas in the tribe you'd be protected. So it's how you navigate through the social sphere. So a lot of it's to do with fame, power, money, climbing the social ladder. It doesn't necessarily mean to say that you're the life and soul of the party, um, but your emphasis is going to be on that. So, charity organizations, um, working in groups to do things. Um, it also sometimes gets confused with sexual because you can have a relationship with someone one-on-one, but it's a social relationship because you in that friendship together, um, because it helps you to be in the world socially. Oh, interesting. Okay, and it often gets confused with the sexual price, which in a business world they call one-on-one, but we're talking about sex, yeah, so let's go for it. So, in in a in a sexual contest, it's about that buzz that you get when you find yourself one-on-one with someone. So, even just you and I talking here now, you can feel that buzz of ideas, and oh, that's interesting, and what you know. So, we're not sitting here thinking, well, how am I going to promote my next book? That would be self-preservation or social, probably. Um, we're just enjoying talking about these ideas, about a subject that we really both enjoy, and it's that buzziness that sexual um instincts all about. And obviously, we needed that because that's how we needed to procreate, but it doesn't necessarily involve sex, it can just be a sharing of ideas with someone, or wow, um, you know, you're standing in the line at the shops and you start talking to someone, and you really find you've got so much in common that buzz. So now we take these three different types, and we say, let's say Bob is a self-preservation type, and let's say Harry or Jane, I'm being you know, love inclusive, yes, love that.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Inclusive, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:57

So let's say they are, or I'll just take one of them, uh, is a sexual type. So now it comes to the anniversary. So Bob is saying, well, it's quite expensive to go out. Maybe we should just stay home and have a nice meal together and watch a show, you know, on TV, Netflix. But the other partner is saying, I want that one-on-one magically, I want the romantics, I want the restaurant, I want I want all that. And if whatever it happens to be social, they would be saying, Hey, I've invited um 30 of our closest friends around to celebrate our anniversary. And the sexual one is saying, What? I mean, I just want you, I don't want those other people, you know. The social one's saying, but but we see each other the whole time, let's have a party. You can see that where this could lead to in terms of relationships and misunderstandings. So it does help if at least if you don't have the same stacking, at least if your point one and two is their point two and one, at least if there's that commonality, and if there isn't, then understanding where they're coming from, where their entire subconscious instinct, what's driving it, is going to help the relationship because then you'll say, Oh, honey, I understand you're a social type, and you love having people around, and you know, I just want you, so maybe there's a compromise here, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Yeah, can it may I ask what you are, what your subject is?

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Um, I'm equally balanced between social and self preservation, and I'm working on the sexual side. We should theoretically be all three, we should be equally balanced between all three, but nobody really is. So we always the the one that we have least on is where. we can grow the most. So that would be the area that I would be looking at to grow.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Same. That's the same for me. And so I would consider mine social. And I I I can do the one-on-one, but what I've realized is I never open up. I'm not the I don't have it's one way. So yes, I'm that's an area that I'm growing in as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Okay. So can I just say one thing there as well? Yes. It can also be influenced on the short term by your environment. So let's say we're all living in a world where COVID is you know on everyone's lips and and and and everything that goes with it. That's going to increase your self-presency. Or here in Africa where I live where you know we've just had horrific rioting and so on recently that's going to to to feed your self-preservation. But then when things normalize and go back then it might slip back and your social type might come to the fore or whatever. So they do they do fluctuate to a degree but you usually have one that's dominant and and one that's too much less so.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

I'm so glad you brought that up because that that is true. They can they can shift and adjust unlike our types that because that's a question I get you know I think I used to be a seven when I was in my 20s but now I think I'm a one in my in my 40s I've ever got some version of that. And and so so okay so talking about the types um what I thought could be fun and I'll let you tell me if you think that there's like a better way to do this is just to give a quick highlight of kind of the the sexual style by type because at this point listeners have a pretty good foundation of like oh the perfectionist the helper but I want to talk about it in in this context. And so I know at the beginning of each book and I don't want you to have to you know repeat your book necessarily but you had talked about each type has a relationship belief and then a main sexual frustration. So I thought maybe we could just anything you wanted to share about the type and then maybe touch on those or anything else you think would be kind of helpful to give people some self-awareness and maybe some some others awareness. So with that I know that um I and I love the names that you have so type one is called the sinning saint so what should we know about the sinning saint's belief?

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Because perfection is what they're after. So they would like things to be perfect in order for sex to proceed. So what happens or potentially could happen is everything's set up there's this whole romantic vibe going on and the one sees that someone left their undies on the floor or the pictures skew or the duvets got a mark on it because of that damn dog you know and all the focus goes there and away from the romance and there's this this whole mission interrupted thing that that that that now it can't proceed because I'm upset or you didn't take a shower or whatever you know there's there's something so that in other words the their perfectionism destroys the ability to engage sexually the need for perfectionism and the the play on the words the the because there's everyone else a sinner and I'm a saint here and like why doesn't everyone just be a saint world is a much better place. I mean don't they get it?

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Of course what ones have to learn is their you know their desire to improve it's how do they know really what the rules are and what improvement really means because it means different things to different people and that's a big lesson for ones to learn to reach that state of acceptance to draw on that nine wing and and to become more tolerant and accepting yeah I was gonna that and that's a great point it's like okay here's the the frustration thing and then like what do you do with that so I like that you added that you know what's the what's the work for the one what's the thing to learn okay what about what about the twos? What should we know about the sexy seducers?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Sexy seducer um well twos and they're not going to like me very much for the sorry twos but you know part of the enneagram is not just portraying you at your most glorious best and I say you I mean all of us um yeah how can I say there's there always these fixations that we have these neuroses that we have that stop us from being who we really potentially can be. If I only speak to you about all the good aspects of all the types then really what I'm doing is just making the box that you're in prettier to look at. But it's not helping you get out of the box. So I need to give you sometimes a little bit of better medicine in a way because that's the impetus to move out of the box and and this is part of the dilemma with the enneagram at the moment that so much of what's going on makes people fall in love with their types and to do so is to miss the point. Because your type is your fixation your type is your neurosis you don't want to stay that you want to move beyond the need for that so yeah so with twos it's all about doing everything for anyone else and I everyone else to the point that often twos kind of pride themselves that their partner couldn't do without them I mean they just wouldn't enjoy sex if it wasn't for me because I know what they want. Okay where's the pride in that and it often comes at the expense of completely denying their own needs. I don't have needs you know it's all about your needs now nobody can have a relationship with someone long term with somebody who's denying their needs. So with twos the journey is about opening up to their needs accessing their needs and then being able to ask for those needs to be met rather than giving giving giving and not acknowledging that they have this need to get as well and you I know that you touch on the the pride for the two um they call those the like the the passions or the vices is that right for each each type um what can you can we go back to one really quickly and talk about their passion it would be perfectionism okay okay things must be right um what about our type threes the awesomely orgasmic type okay with threes as in their lives it becomes about the performance it becomes about I have this idealistic view of myself which I now have to live up to and I don't want people to see the authentic me because they could be terribly disappointed. What if I'm actually quite mousy and not nothing like the brilliant glamorous wonderful entrepreneurial person I'm portraying. So often with threes they tend to reject because they don't want to be rejected themselves so rejection becomes a form of protection so with sex the problem can be that it's it becomes all about the performance and it in over time it's so hard to maintain that performance that it's almost easier not to to throw yourself into work and and not to run the risk of underperforming. Was that great for you honey you know and and and what if they say well actually no it wasn't that that would be so painful so a lot of the times threes may avoid that intimacy or have several relationships so that they could get a different thing from each person okay because that's better than feeling rejected or feeling a failure. Threes hate to feel that they failed yes yes and sometimes in sex our bodies let us down you know we we can't maintain an erection if we're a guy or or we just don't get that orgasm or whatever it is and and that feels like a failure to a three because they've read all these magazines telling them how to be the perfect lover and 10 things to do to make him you know whatever you know and and then he can't you know yeah and so is that would that be the work done for the the three the thing to keep in mind and learn is that it doesn't yeah it doesn't have to be authenticity to be able to be authentic about to move away from this idealized version of themselves and to start to become authentic and to accept that failure is a step on the road to success and every one of us needs it and it's okay it's okay it makes us more human all right what about type four the romantic Romeo or Juliet so fours are the romantics of the world um you know they're the poets they're the it's not that all artists are fools they're not but they are the archetype of an artist or poet they feel deeply they don't like the shallow they find um they like that intensity of relationship they tend to run everything through a filter of a past event well this is amazing it just reminds me of that time in the tropics five years ago when they were playing this music in whatever you know so they they but they can get so involved with the almost like fantasy of this relationship that they lose out on really being in it because it's all when they're with the partner they might be full of remembrances of another event or or thing and they're not there.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

They're not present because all these things are different ways we stop ourselves from being present so that's really what we're talking about in terms of sex and our lives so with fours it's about actually accepting the person they're with and being in the now and realizing that they are not their feelings and that they don't have to enhance their feelings in order to be um to to feel deeply they don't have to suffer fours suffer a lot so they they they don't have to suffer for sex yeah yeah that's a good point what about the the envy you know because that that thing of envy always comes up with fours everyone else has got a better relationship yeah yes yes I I know sevens have a little bit of that that grass is greener too um yeah but it's a different reason a different reason yeah yeah yeah um which I I love about the Enneagram it's like you can have these similar behaviors but that motive the thought behind it is it's gonna be different because for the the the four the the yeah well we will get to the seven when we get there with saying what's different but right the fives um what do I call the five the lonely lover the lonely lovers okay so so accurate yeah why fives can be lonely because they don't want the to feel invaded or or sort of consumed by another um and we've spoken about avarice as as the wounding so this feeling that there's never going to be enough so fives can feel overwhelmed by other people they can feel that um I remember reading a book by a five who'd gone hiking the Camino and he did it the whole he he he escaped from his wife constantly because it almost gave him space to breathe fives need alone time in order to regenerate their energy people drain them so in a relationship they might find that someone else's presence becomes overwhelming so what fives would have to learn is to create the boundaries that allow them space but that don't drive the other person away.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

So it's a matter of realizing with the other person what what then accepting their needs and accepting that their needs are different from their needs and not making their needs wrong and at the same time finding a a midpath where they can accommodate the other person's need and at the same time allow themselves space to to do their own thing. Yeah I think that that's such a go ahead no fives can also go very into their heads so sex can become very cerebral so I think I joke in the book and say that if if there's um uh you know two signs and the one says have sex here and the other one says all the things about sex that you never knew but could find out now those times would be very tempted to go into the the lecture because I mean there's interesting stuff there you never go in what how else are you going to do this? So there's also the danger of going into their heads and and and cutting off from their hearts and bodies.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

Oh yes that is that's on point that is um and you know what I was gonna say too I was just thinking about is you know for a partner that might be like a two or um maybe a four but just understanding that like somebody like a a five who needs their space it's not about you it's about them and just with all of this it's I think it comes down to like understanding what you need and then being able to effectively communicate that. And then as a partner kind of being willing to to receive that um but you you know understanding yourself is kind of that that step one right there. Okay so on type six we have the loyal lover.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

Can I just add a story here about what someone developed an app for your phone I mean clearly they're bored people in the world and it basically mimicked a a Taurus and you could the same way as you you know you could work with this tourist on your phone and that was to teach people how best to work because you would get points if you did it right you know now only a five could have enjoyed that I mean just get out there and do it. You know you don't need a bloody phone to teach you how to do these things you know so yeah but moving on. That's hilarious yeah yeah I I see it though I see it um okay so we have the type six which you called the loyal lover yeah so type sixes are the cat I never can't say this word catastrophe catastroph well you know they yes because I know it to catastroph oh you know that word I call it catastrophizing is that that's the one thank you okay um so they're always sort of it's a common Enagram saying to say they're looking they're scanning the horizon for what could go wrong and that happens in sex because now the evening is there it's romantic it's all been set up they've they've earned their their their sex and then they're thinking but what if the condom breaks or what if I lose my erection or what if what if they've got an STD oh my goodness now I I mean did you read those stories about people I mean I saw those pictures I mean we don't want to do this you know and before they know it they've spoken themselves completely out of the event and then and and their mind is on all these terrible things that could go wrong as opposed to the beautiful person lying next to them so that's unfortunately how sexes um yeah and it it's it's fear based so sexes would need to understand that that's all that was happening. And also there can be this element of indecision in sexes should I do it like this or do you think they'd like it like that or maybe they how would you like it?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Would you like it no sense I said that you know and so that can also be um take away from the confidence that I think we all want in a lover they got that inner committee yeah absolutely the inner committee all the voices telling them what they should and shouldn't be doing it's like having having sex on the beach with everyone watching and sort of passing comments you know that's a great analogy um okay so what about our sevens that you call the spontaneous suitors sevens are after fun and freedom so what that means is they're always looking for the next best thing because fear propels us into the future so they're not present because they're thinking about either that email they're meant to write or this is fun with one lover but I wonder what it's like with two like with a French person or maybe a Chinese person.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

What if we had two you know so there's this whole story going on in their heads or maybe if we did it this way they quite like fives they enjoy planning sex. Fives enjoy the thought of what they could do and sevens are the same but it becomes during sex the focus and so they're not really enjoying they're not they're not enjoying the sweetness of the moment because it's all about creating a better moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

I can see that which is a little off putting yeah again yeah but but like you said just like oh we all each type has this thing that takes you out of the moment um out of like what's right in front of you so for sevens it's greed it's greed for the next experience you know how do I buzz things up how do I how do I get this to be more exciting than it is you know and and then just for the work is to come back to the present the work is to come back to the present and appreciate what is happening here and now yeah sure things might be great in the future but right now I'm here and this is what I've got and it's amazing that's the work of the sevens I think our I think our book of our book recommendation needs to be the the power of now the Eckhart Tolle book I joked I'm like I really need to read that book um sobriety because that's where they learn that it's sobriety and it's it's not necessarily giving up foods but it's coming into the soberness of the moment and that's where they find joy and realizing that freedom isn't everywhere else freedom is when you learn to accept those boundaries and scriptures and kind of going like you were talking about earlier going into that five and like being being able to be still and be um even alone sometimes is like a a work the work for me sometimes um okay we have two more so we have the type eight which you have called the lusty lover right so we've spoken about eights going off for what they want but this desire for kind of enhancing the experience so sex uh sex with an eight they often don't they come on so strong that the other person draws back and because they then want to come on stronger because then after the other person's withdrawing so if aides could understand that it's more a meeting of people than a pushing of people because they often push someone away with their desire to overwhelm control whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:59

And I think the lesson for AIDS is to learn to meet that person in the middle with them. Stand in the fire with me, as opposed to wanting to engulf you in the flames.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

Great analogy. Yeah. Okay. And then the last one. Yeah, I was like, that's good. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good visual. I'm like, yes. Um, okay, and then the last one. I know we've talked about you had called the eight or the nines um sensual, and you in in the book you called them the sensual sweetheart. What do we need to know about our type nines here?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

Nines, I think, in desiring to merge with others, and particularly a partner, lose themselves. And as I said earlier, so they're in the room, but they're not in the room. And a lot of the times, what nines do before they have sex, and of course, I don't do this at all, darkly, but like let's say the whole romantic thing set up, and not just sex, I do this in lots of things. So I'm about to walk from let's say the lounge to the bedroom, but as I'm walking, I see the cat's bowl needs filling up. So we've got to do that. Can't leave the cat, you know, fill the cat's ball. And then, oh look, the washing is still on the line. I've got to just take that off, take the washing, and then I never responded to that email. Let me quickly go and do it. By the time I get to the bedroom, my poor husband is fast asleep. I mean, this has been so it's not intentional as such, but it's like all these making everything else that's less important more important. So it's distracting ourselves. And I think nines have a hard job of this trying to find out what is the most important, even in a job-related thing, to look and say, okay, what do I need to achieve today? Numbered from one to ten, depending on what's the most important or inspirational, and to ten, which would be the least thing. And I think sometimes those lines get blurred with nines, and so they they battle to prioritize. And obviously, from a partner's point of view, they're gonna see that as a kind of rejection because if you're having to do all these other little fussy things before you get to the bedroom, that clearly means you you don't love me, you don't want me, you don't whatever. And it's actually not, it's just the way the mind of a nine works. So nines have to learn to accept that they do these things and to actually learn to prioritize, to say, actually, sex right now is the most important thing. And the cats ate at lunchtime, so if they wait an hour, it's not gonna, they're not gonna starve, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:02

The cats will be fine. The cats will be fine, they'll be just fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

Oh, it's nubbing out to to to the reality of the situation, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Yes, okay, that was a really good overview. I think just again to bring some self-awareness and also just to to have some understanding of, you know, somebody else, your partner, you know, whoever, just kind of have their seeing the world and experiencing and what's kind of you know, their their challenges and being being aware of that and being understanding. Um, I have a question for you, Anne. What one of the most popular, I should say, common questions around the Enneagram in this context is like, what are the best matches for types? What do you say when you get that question?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

I dance around it skillfully and seldom answer. And I tell you why, because it's it's not so much your type, but your level of integration or your level of health, or you know, how healthy you are as a person emotionally, um, mentally, and so on. So, and and and and that's really the more determining factor than two types. That being said, there was a survey that I think they got 400 couples, and they saw that the only types who actually tended to hang out with each other were fours, because two fours kind of get that depth within each other. Um, it's very seldom that you'd have two eights marrying or two threes or whatever. But I have noticed patterns, and it's something I'd like to do more research on. Um, there definitely are types who are more attracted to, so you very often will find an eight-woman will marry a nine man, but an eight-man will very often be with a either two woman or possibly a six. Um, so ones and sevens, I find that quite a lot. Um, you know, so I do think there are patterns, I just don't think that the resources have been there to do enough research on those patterns, and it's a difficult thing because sometimes people do mistype themselves, so that would screw the research as well. So it really needs to be done in in thousands to make it valid, but there are patterns I believe.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

And I like what you said though, like there are patterns, and also it's your level of development integration, because it would probably be regardless if it was the best match, you know, a one and a seven or you know, two and a nine, um, it would be it's like if they're one's really unhealthy and the other's healthy, you know, that's going to be tough. You know, you you mentioned something, you know, um, a male and a female a. How does gender play into this, into how our type is expressed? Like, are there differences? Like, what have you found?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:11

If you look at the symbol of the enneagram, the actual diagram, it's fine, my head's here somewhere, but you'll see that uh two and the four sit opposite the eight kind of thing. So your eight is your most or displays your most masculine characteristics. That does not mean to say that everyone is an eight is male, no, it's just the the because they're they're forceful and dominant and in charge, those are characteristics we've associated with an octable male. Likewise, a two in a four tend to, and this is according to Claudio Narano, be the more feminine energies. So, what I found in the book that there were more um homosexual men amongst fours than there were in any of the other types. And um, you know, twos being that very nurturing feminine, you know, um type. So they they almost energetically are mirrors of each other in in a sort of no well, shadows of each other, one could say. So yeah, um there are energies at play. Nines tend to be the most pansexual of all the types because nines are just okay with anything, you know. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

So they did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

Yeah, go with the flow, yeah, sure. Yeah. Um fives tend to be the more experimental, nothing shocks them. Fives like to go into the deep and dark and esoteric to places that other people don't necessarily feel okay with going. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:04

Okay, I was just curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:07

Yeah, but I think you also gonna look at it that it's the there's no one particular type that is going to necessarily fill all your needs. And and sorry everyone out there you know thinks there's only one person for them, but I think I think that's what Enagram shows us. Everyone has gifts to bring to us, and we have gifts to bring to them, but they are not all Enagram types, so they can't possibly have all the gifts. So they might be very confident and assertive, which we like, but maybe at times we're looking for softer more romance or or or you know, whatever. Um, so each type brings a different something to a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:56

That makes me think of that that quote. It's like your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness. It's like the the energy that creates that gift is also the energy that really creates the frustration.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

Um is paradoxical. So, you know, I mean, a seven being attracted to a one is you know one of the many demonstrations of the paradox. You know, somebody who's wanting fun, experience, freedom with someone who's dutiful, hardworking, responsible, you know, it's it's the shadow that we we haven't acknowledged in ourselves, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:35

Okay, so I we're not gonna end here. I got it one more question for you, but I do just want to bring this up because I thought this was really interesting. You also included a section about how to to divorce, kind of based on your type or what to know about going through a divorce with somebody. And what what inspired you to include that? And and you know, I guess what could we gain from reading that section?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:01

I'm not advocating divorce at all, but it's a very much effect of the world we live in. And so I thought it might just help if you are going through divorce. That you know, ideally, the best kind of divorce if there is such a thing, is if you can both reach agreements where it's a win-win situation, um, and it doesn't destroy you and make lawyers very wealthy in the process. So perhaps if you could have understanding of what your partner might be going through in the divorce, then maybe you could, as opposed to making them just terribly wrong, you could maybe meet their needs and hopefully, you know, because kindness repays with kindness. So if you could understand them and be kinder to them during the process, the chances are that they would respond accordingly. So yeah, I and I thought it was an interesting, interesting way of looking at things.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

It it was, it really was, and um, yeah, again, not advocating for it, but it it is just a part of the society of reality, a huge percentage. Um so it's great to know like how to kind of do that. Oh, the the conscious uncoupling and and doing it in a in a um healthy, less, I guess, stressful way, ideally.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

Um it also does depend very much on the on the level of integration of the person that you're divorcing. So if they're coming from a very unhealthy perspective, um, unfortunately, yeah, you're not going to get the best behavior from that, um, no matter what their type is. So maybe that would help you understand what you're dealing with as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:53

Great point. Great point, yes. Um you can't always control other people, just yourself. So okay, so let's say think, you know, let's things go really well. We we get a good match, we have some great sex. There might be kids that come from that. And you just recently wrote a book, right, about parenting. Is this the your latest book?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:18

Um the latest book is Art and Enagram. So it's painting by numbers, paint by numbers. So that looks at how we show up in the art world as artists, what how we're likely to approach art and so on. But I have written a book which will it's now already on pre-order, in fact, but it'll only be launched um next year, and then special parenting with the enneagrams, and that looks at how we show up as parents, it looks at teenagers in each type, and it looks at children in each type, and then I look at how each of like a one parent, how one parent would relate to a two-child, a three-child, a four-child, a five-child. So there's a whole lot of um ways that we can see the main characteristics, both at a higher level and then at a not so healthy level. Um, and I think the the point of that is you can really then see if you know what type of parent you are. You may not know exactly what type your child is, and I'm against um being too specific about typing your child too young. But some children are just you can see it in my law, you know. Um and at least that gives you so if you're not sure if there are two or three, but you're a one, just in reading how you relate to them, um, and reading those two options, if you incorporate both those options, then I think it could help you understand how your parenting is affecting your child and what you could do to work with that. You know, because we all want to be the best parents we can be. Um, and we all try to be. I mean, very few people don't try to be the best parents they can be. But if this can help give you a little more insight into your blind spots, um and why you seem to relate to one child, and maybe it's harder to relate to another child, you know. Um, I mean, I think that's that's so for many people.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:32

And say that again, and when is that coming out in 2022?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

It's coming out on the 8th of March, uh, 2022, but you can pre-order on Amazon now.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:42

You can pre-order, okay, okay. So I think, yeah, I I probably need to get myself a copy of that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:48

And then the kiddies books, you know, those are just it's really complicating things is easy. It's easy to complicate things, simplifying them. I mean, it's the same in art, it's much more difficult to do a really good abstract painting than it is to do something that's realistic. Uh, because you have to know what to take out, we have to know what must stay in there. What is the core truth of that type? And so that's what I did with the kiddies books. They aimed at three to eight years old. So you have Percy Perfect, Hazel Helper, Sally Starr, Arthur Artsy, and so on. And they're fun illustrator books. I illustrated them myself. Uh, and and they're a lot actually, the interesting thing is I found out that a lot of them are being bought by adults because because they, I mean, they're fun gifts to give to someone, but they synthesize in a in a really simple way actually what each type kind of the journey that they need to learn in life or potentially can learn. So I've had a huge amount of fun um writing them, and I noticed that a lot of schools are getting them and they're going into various churches and things. And I think it's great because I get these emails saying um we bought these for the kids, but as teachers, we're now really understanding who we are um simply by reading the kids' books, and that's fantastic. That's really fantastic because um if you can find your way in this and and it's fun doing so, and it's it's a simple way, um, and get kids the whole point was to get kids to to honor their differences as opposed to making somebody else wrong because they're not like you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:39

Okay, and those are available now.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:41

They're all available, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:42

Okay, okay. And then before we we wrap this up though, I have one more question, but on the art and the Enneagram, um, I know that like the four is called the artists, you know, otherwise known as the artists sometimes, but we all have, I'm assuming, some a creative part in us. Um, just give us a quick, quick overview of what to expect in in your latest book, The Art and the Enneagram.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:07

All right. So I mean, Picasso was an eight. Um, he wasn't a four. So all of us have, you see, because to create is essentially who we are. I mean, all of us need to create. And if somebody is not creating in some way, whether it's a dish, a garden, I mean, a cooking dish, a garden, a business, an empire, an app, if we aren't being creative, we're actually almost destroying ourselves. It almost goes the opposite. So it's essential to all of our emotional mental health to be in some way feeling we're part of the creative process. Um, if you're doing it through art, that's great. So that is the overview of the book. But then it's looking at what stops you from being creative, what hinders you, and how do you help that? And it also looks at how the different types show up as art teachers. And um, I do very exciting. I mean, I was so excited when I found out this stuff because of course all of this stuff is new. No one's written a book on art on Indeed before, so it's all I feel like this intrepid explorer going into these exciting um jungles where finding new stuff, you know, and looking at how strongly our instinctual biases, which we were talking about earlier on, determine the type of artists we become. And that I found fascinating. And I mean, I could I could so see it because um my husband's an artist and and uh said so am I, and I could look at how the two of us approach art and see that from our instinctual types, and really start looking at other people, people like teachers on, and and and fascinating stuff, really, really enjoy that. And so basically, it's how we can become better artists or engage more, and then something I did that I really want to work with because a lot of the enneagram is very cerebral, and as we know, the enneagram is based on head, heart, and body. So, how do we take what's intrinsically a cerebral process and utilize all the different um aspects of self? And so I came up with some exercises that do just that. Well, I hope they do just that, and how we can really feel, irrespective if you're planning an art career or not, but how you can feel what it's like to be an average two, and then when the exercise changes, how the world opens up for you, and it's been a fascinating journey in witnessing how people, even if that isn't their particular type, we're doing that there, how they experience and how they get the type. It's far more powerful than me prattling on to you about what each type does, but when you actually feel it in your bones, different story, and that's really what I'm trying to do, not just in the book, but in general in the enneagram.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:21

And that's we're gonna have to do this again later um and talk about art and the Enneagram, creativity in the Enneagram. And that you know, that's such a good reminder, too. It's not just painting and drawing is considered art. You mentioned cooking and gardening and building a business. And so um I think we all could benefit from that because I do hear a lot of people say, like, oh, I'm just not creative. I'm just I couldn't do that. I'm just I don't have a creative. Um, so I I love that you have like exercises to kind of tap into that. So art in the Enneagram, I'm assuming that is on Amazon as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:53

Where numbers? Sorry, it's called numbers. Okay. I couldn't use that on the open yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:03

Yes. Oh, I get it, I get it. That is the best name. Okay, so you have that right now. Where else can can we learn more about you? Where are you hanging out?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:13

Either on social media, your website, where should we go and use Enagrams with the S, Enagrams, and then the numerical nineparts.com.com. Um, so hang out there, and that's probably the best place. Um, sign up for the newsletter. Um, I can't say I'm the best about sending regular newsletters, but whenever I come up with a new idea or a new book or a new article or something, then I would post it up there. Um the books I've got a Facebook page, um, Enneagrams with Anne.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:51

And you came to the end. Okay, we'll get this all connected um for people who want to follow along and and learn more about you and see what other the other 35 books that you have written, um, what those are about. So, Anne, I really appreciate you being here. Um and uh all that you shared. This was a jam-packed episode. Um, I am highly gonna recommend this book, Sex and the Enneagram. We'll link that as well. Any other final words that you would want to share to kind of consider this episode complete?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:24

No, other than that, the Enneagram is an incredible tool. And so if you're listening to this, it's for a reason. Explore it, have fun with it, enjoy it. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:39

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you, Anne. I appreciate you being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

Pleasure. All right, bye bye.