SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your gifts, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. Each week you'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others, like your future clients, and help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gifts and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. I literally just finished pulling the video clips, writing the show notes, pulling some quotes from this week's guest expert interview with Jess O'Connell, who identifies as a type 5 wing six. And I loved learning about her experience as a type 5 and even her journey to landing on the type 5 from where she started as a two and possibly a three as an entrepreneur, and then finally landing and realizing how much the type 5 actually resonated with her. So that was really fun. And then the other half of this episode, we get into her area of expertise, which is launching and where that starts from creating your freebie all the way to the very end. And so she shares so many things to think about when it relates to the very beginning of that process, um, how we price our services, our offers, and all kinds of really tangible takeaways. So I can't wait for you to hear this one. It's really an honor to have her. Jess has been featured on today, Entrepreneur Thive Thrive, Global, Pop Sugar, the Mind Your Business podcast with James Wedmore. And so she is, she knows a thing or two about launching and really doing it in a way that doesn't require hustle, that doesn't require stress, and can still make you revenue and allow you to make that impact that we also want to make. I know we a lot of us on here, you know, want to make an impact, want to help others. And sometimes it can feel heavy. And she talks a lot about spaghetti launching versus aligned launching. So we'll get into that as well. Um, I'm I'm pumped, so I'm not gonna say any more. I could I could go on, but we have it all in the episode here. So let's jump right in with um this week's guest expert interview, Jess O'Connell. Okay, you guys, this is gonna be another fun one because I am here with Jess O'Connell and we are going to get into later talking about creating offers, sharing those offers with your audience. She is kind of the go-to on that. And I know I have a lot of questions for her myself on this topic, but I'm also excited because she is coming to us as an Enneagram type five, which we have had on the podcast before. But um, Jess is identifying as a type five wing six. So this will be really fun to kind of see how that um influences her Enneagram type, both in just as a human being and how that is how she's seen it kind of play out in the work that she does. So, Jess, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I'm so excited to chat.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I am too. I forget. Did we? I think we just connected randomly on Instagram. I maybe like reached out to you. I do you remember how that happened?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

I definitely think it was on Instagram. I think it was like a mutual thing. And then we just started chatting.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah. And I was like, oh my gosh, I love your content. I love your graphics. I like love your messaging. So um I'm glad that that happens. I know social media sometimes can get kind of a bad rap, but then there's also some really cool things that can happen over there. So I'm glad that that happened. Um, okay, so first thing is first, Jess, I I gotta ask, our type five is known as the observer, the expert. That core fear or the core motive is kind of that feeling of wanting to be capable and knowledgeable and self-sufficient. Um, what about the type five resonates with you? Like, how did you know when you were learning about the Enneagram that this was your dominant type?

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah. Oh my gosh. So I have been like Enneagram curious for probably the last five or six years. And I remember taking the test like five or six years ago, and I typed as a two, and I was deeply in like my people pleasing. And I feel like I resonated with that, but it wasn't like it wasn't my true nature, right? It was kind of like pointing out the worst part of me, and which I definitely feel like the Enneagram uh likes to poke at the things that you don't want to pay attention to. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And so I first typed as a two, and I was like, I don't really resonate with that. So I kind of wrote it off and I was like, okay, whatever, like this is completely self-biased. I like I don't trust that information. Hashtag five. And so um, so then I became an entrepreneur and I really started focusing on my business. And I was like, maybe I'm a three. Like, I feel like as an entrepreneur, you need to be a three. I'm gonna be a three. And so I self-typed as a three. I took the test again, and of course, my answers lean toward three, but I started to really consume Enneagram content, and as typing is a three, it still didn't really resonate. And I feel like the three and the five are very nuanced. Like there's a their core like motive is very similar, capability and like uh enoughness, right? Like that being enough, being seen as worthy. And so I was like, oh, it's it's that's close, but it's not quite it. And I just didn't resonate with the memes and with all of the messaging around that. And so here I was like digging deep into this rabbit hole, trying to figure out all the answers, reading all of the things about Enneagram, hashtag five. And like finally, I was like, wait a second, maybe I'm a five. And for me, the thing that really clicked was the capability thing. I have always felt like I'm we know that like Enneagram is kind of dictated by like your childhood trauma and like all of that. And even looking into that, I think that for me, it really did come down to being seen as capable, being seen as self-sufficient, not needing um other people or help or things like that. Like that's really kind of a core motivator for me in a good and bad way. And so it was really when I was like, yes, it's not that I need to be validated or recognized. Like I feel like of three needs. It's that I needed people to know that I know what I'm talking about. Like I needed to, like that was the biggest insult that I could get was somebody questioning my knowledge or somebody questioning my capability. And it was that that made me realize like, yep, it's definitely, it's definitely the five. And looking back at like my life in general, I am definitely somebody who I've always said, like, I go deep. I go deep with everything. I don't do anything half-assed, kind of like trying to figure out the Enneagram. As soon as I set my mind on something, I'm like, I have to figure this out. I am not just scratching the surface on anything. I am going hell, like deep, deep, deep, trying to figure out all of the things about it. And I have a really funny example of this. When I had my daughter, my very first daughter, I really like, I don't know how I fell into this world. There is an underground diaper bag world. I don't know if you knew this. And I didn't, no, I didn't know. I have a son, but don't know this thing, right? Like normal people are like, hey, I need a diaper bag, I'm gonna go to Target. But like there is like this whole world of like designer, high, like high-quality diaper bags, and it is a very intense world to be a part of, and it has its own subculture and all the things. And I didn't just like buy a diaper bag, I became like the leader of this group. I met the CEO of the company that I was like, like they invited me to their headquarters. Like, I didn't just like use a diaper bag, like I became like the head of this whole thing. And I'm like, what is happening? Like, I can't just like do things half-assed. Like it is it's all or nothing for me in every aspect of my life. Um, and I feel like that's a very five thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

It is like, yeah, diving deep, like learning all there is to learn about whatever it is that you're interested in. Um, very five. Okay, so um I wanted to ask you too, because I and I also love that you already know, like, oh, the wing six is kind of the one versus, and I actually I just did um a series on wings. So just I mean, I know you know this, Jess, but just for the listeners, I wrote this um the other day for Instagram. And I just want to know, I would love, I'm curious to know what out of this resonates with you. So um, interesting enough, too, like I was on, I told Jess before we recorded, I was on her website looking around, and she had like all these tips and solutions for launching and making a course and offers. And um I I saw, I was reminded that type five wing six is also known as the problem solver. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. Okay, so here is what the description of the problem solver is, and I want to know like what resonates with you. So it says that with the five, you're mixing that observation with the energy of the six, which is that um organization and detail. And then um, you have this ability to make meaningful connections from random facts and make predictions. You're looking for a niche with safety and security that kind of fits into the bigger picture, tend to be drawn to tech, science, engineering, philosophy, and venting. And you're gonna be maybe a little bit more cooperative with that six energy, disciplined and persistent than the wing four, probably. So, what out of there like hits home with you?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Oh my gosh, all of it. So, like the planning and organization part, another like random subculture that I got involved with was the planning community. I used to be really big. I mean, I'm still big into planners. I have I own no less than three or four planners at a time. Um, but I have done a lot of things and and I'm I'm actually friends with the owner of a planner company. Of course you are, of course I are. Because again, like I don't scratch the surface. Um, and so yeah, I uh so the planning thing for sure, like the planning organization. And it's funny because I was on the fence for a while. Like, am I a four or a six? And then I was like, wait a second, I have three calendars on my walls and two planners on my desk and my Google calendar. Maybe that's an indicator. I might be a wing six.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Might be a wing six. Okay, so I want to hear, I want to hear from you on this because sometimes the the misconception or like the stereotypical five is seen as like really introverted, very isolated. Um, that's actually that can be the defense mechanism for the type five. Is that isolation? But I'm hearing you say, like, I made friends with the CEO and the I'm head to the headquarters, and like you're leading a community. How do you see that show up for you, if at all? And are there specific things that you've had to grow through to get to where you are? Does that come kind of natural? That that community of piece, which is maybe that that six energy coming in.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah. So it's really funny. Another thing that I really resonated with with the five is that in health or in safety or whatever, I go to an eight, which I really think is like confident and like get shit done and kind of this like ruler energy, right? And so, like as a five, my default position is definitely introverted. I think it works so well with an online business because I'm alone right now. Like my actual energy, I am alone in my office. There is nobody else here with me. No one else is really like consuming my energy, and I'm not consuming their energy. And that is why I think I can make friends online so well, because like I'm not extroverted, I just play one online. And so it's a very clear line for me between like making connections online versus like in person. And so with that, like I think that my default position is definitely like quiet. I really like alone time. Um, I have joked with my husband about like my love language is not quality time, or it is, but quality time with myself. Like quality time with nobody else.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Like, if you give me quality time alone, I know that you love me. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

If you leave me alone, then I know that you love me. Um, but yeah, and I think that that definitely is the is a five thing, right? It's like it's the energy and spurts and stops, right? Like I can give all of my energy and focus to something, but then I really need to like come back into myself and have that quiet. And I feel that a lot, like kind of going out into the world and then coming back in. And I see that a lot in my business too. Like, I am not somebody who's always active on social media. I'm not in my stories every day. And I think that one, like, that's okay. I think that there's this crazy misconception that we have to be on stories all the time, or our audience is gonna forget that we exist or something. Um, but I think like really honoring that energy and like how we spend it the other 22 hours a day outside of like the time that we're on social media um is really key.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yes. Okay, so uh I'm a type seven. And so my health number is a five. And so, um, and it's really interesting because the stereotypical seven is like really extroverted, like life of the party, but it's so interesting. I feel like the older that I get, like my love language is exactly what you said. And it's like I just really like to be by myself, and with which is so interesting, and just kind of tapping into like the ability to be alone, and that's something that I have grown a ton in in the last year and a half, is is like moving, leaning more into that five arrow, yeah, and being okay with like stillness, which is still really hard, but I've grown a lot. Um, so I I really feel you on that. And then um, it is just interesting to think about like, you know, just because you're one way doesn't mean that like you're that way all the time. So I liked what you were saying, like kind of ebbing and flowing. Um, and then just knowing that like, yeah, I probably work better by myself. So like an online business is great. And you know, if you're if you're not just paying attention to like then how you can bring in other people. So okay, so the other thing I wanted to ask you about, and you you touched on your growth arrow to the eight, bringing in that confidence and that big energy. And then for um the fives, it's the flip side for me. Yeah, um, it's like your yeah, your stress number is the seven, where it's like you might feel scattered, chaotic. Like, how do you see that showing up?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

I see that show up all the time. And that's another reason why, like, I really feel like when people look at the Enneagram, they look at one number, and that's really short-sighted. Like, one of my favorite things about the Enneagram is how all of the numbers work together and how we have all of those characteristics, but really seeing how our energy moves and flows through the numbers um is so powerful. And so realizing like that, so it wasn't just that I resonated with like the characteristics of the five. It was recognizing that when I am in stress, I'm very scatterbrained, I'm very impulsive. Like I throw spaghetti at the wall and I like completely abandon my six wing when I'm in my seven. And so, like, that's when like I'm not planning and I am completely like trying new things and being crazy experimental, but not like in the healthiest way. And so I think that like that super resonated with me too. And so when I feel like impulsive or like I'm not planning, or like I'm taking action without doing the research, that's when I'm like, okay, like clearly I'm out of alignment with my truest nature. Like, how can I like what is causing this chaos in my life? And how can I bring it back to like that center of making decisions from the place that I know is where I'm most in alignment.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yes, I love that you said that, Jess. And you said it so well because it is so fluid. The Enneagram itself is so fluid. And I just um was talking to somebody on Instagram today um about them being able to narrow down their type more because they understood which wing they were, and then they were looking at their arrows, their stress, and they're like, oh my gosh, I thought I was this, but I'm actually this because of those other, those other energies and how they show up. Um, okay, so last kind of, I think this is gonna be my last question about the type five experience, is um they are in this competency triad or this group when it comes to handling conflict with our ones and our threes, which you had kind of mentioned earlier, you have some overlapping energy. And and this is for the listeners who may not know what that is, it's um whenever conflict or problem arises, you can look at the silver lining like some of our types, you can get really emotional and need to vent, or where our type fives are at, um, they're thinking, show me the data, don't show me the drama, let's like keep these emotions to a minimum. Let's just focus on the task at hand. Is that your experience? Is that true for you? How does how do you see yourself as a type five handling conflict problems when that inevitably happens in business and life in general?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, completely. Um, I I have this funny story about when I first started dating my husband, we had been dating for like three or four months, and I don't remember what the fight was about, but I remember that we got into a big fight. And we were sitting in the car, like staring at like the fence behind our house, because like that's where you parked your car. And I got really quiet. And he thought we were breaking up. And he's like, tell me, like, what like what what are you thinking about? What are you thinking? And I like literally was like, I was thinking that those two fence posts were cut from the same piece of wood. And he's like, What? And I was like, Look, like the knots are like parallel, like you can see that those knots link into each other. And he's like, What? And I because and I tell that story because I don't make emotional decisions, and I like I really I thought the fight was over. The fight was over, like we had come to a conclusion. I don't dwell on things, and I'm already thinking about something else 99% of the time. And I think that that's such a superpower when it comes to conflict and when it comes to problems in general, like with launching specifically, launching is something that is so or can be so emotionally charged. Oh, for sure. But on the other side of it, it's also a really incredible data finding mission, right? And oftentimes, like the answers are actually in the data. So something I literally teach, which is so funny that you bring this up, is like, don't look at it with emotional eyes, look at it from a data-driven perspective. Let's look at what the numbers actually say and figure out what the solution to this is. I'm always looking for data-driven answers to problems, especially when it comes to business or even like with our personal finances. We're always like, okay, let's draw out the budget, see what it looks like three months from now. Like, I'm always I need to see the next couple of months, I need to see the data, I need to see the trends, and then I can make decisions.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Oh my gosh, you are like the best person to teach this type of thing because this is like one of the most emotional things, like putting your hard work, your like credibility, your like sometimes it's like, am I worthy as a human being, depending on how this launch goes. And so for to have somebody kind of like steady, stable, data-driven. And um, on the the front page of your website, you had talked about like spaghetti launching versus aligned launching. And I love the path that you had said, like for spaghetti launching. And I've I've done this, I'm assuming I'm not alone um with my listeners here, but it's like, okay, have an idea, share it with your audience. No one buys it immediately, start to doubt yourself, and just like give up. And so that feels like very emotional. Um, but then you have the aligned launching approach. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is and how you use data and information versus emotions?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Absolutely. And I think that you're right, like so many people go. Into their launch and they don't feel like it's going well. They completely ignore what the actual numbers are saying because they in me for a good reason, most people don't know the numbers, right? There's a lot of marketing information that is being taught from an emotional perspective or like being perceived from an emotional perspective without taking into account the data that's actually behind it. Like this is a tried and tested industry. Launching is something that has like statistical probability and like numbers that are associated with it. And so understanding those numbers going in and kind of wrapping your head around it helps you create less attachment to the outcome. And it's that attachment that I think causes a lot of the drama is like the meaning, right? Like this has to go well, or I'm a failure. Or if this is succeeds, then I am successful. And creating that emotional attachment to the outcome. And with teaching aligned launching, one of the things that I teach is like putting on, I literally keep these on my desk because I use them all the time, is putting on your science goggles in your launches and looking at it from a scientific perspective. And so in aligned launching, it's setting up your launch, following through with it, and then examining the data on the back end and getting a better perspective of if it actually performed well. And then taking that information and applying it to your next launch. And so oftentimes, if you are launching and you don't get like oftentimes people are looking at launching like a math equation, right? That A plus B needs to equal C. And if it doesn't equal C, then they did something wrong. They are wrong. It's wrong. They're not worthy. They should just shut, like shut down their business and be done with it, right? Right, right, right. It's over. It's over. And so instead of looking at it like a math problem, it's a much more empowering perspective to look at launching like an experiment, right? And we all learned the scientific method back in seventh grade. Like we all had to learn that you make a hypothesis, you run the experiment, and then you do the analysis, and you either are proven correct in your hypothesis or incorrect. But either way, the data and information you get from the experiment is the point, right? You aren't setting to have a specific outcome, you're starting the experiment to learn something and take those learnings and apply them to your next hypothesis and run another experiment. And so rather than looking at launching as like, I need to make $100,000. So I need this number of people to buy this thing. And if it doesn't happen in this exact way, then I'm a failure. Then instead looking at it as like, okay, I'm going to put this offer in front of this audience and we're going to see what happens. And then seeing what happens, taking that data and saying, okay, cool. I had 5% of these people convert last time. In order to reach my goal, I need to get 25 people to buy it. Well, 25 people is 5% of whatever. And I need to then get 125 people to opt in to know that 5% are going to buy, which means that I'll get five people or whatever, right? Like doing that math backwards is really hard. Um, but like then you can create data-driven decisions and say, okay, at the top, I can control getting 125 people into this and know that if everything holds true in my experiment, then we're going to end up with the outcome that I want.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Oh, that's so good. Cause it's it becomes like less about the result that you don't really have control over, but more about the the like the, I don't know if it's like the journey or the the things in between that you can kind of tweak and move those levers and buttons on totally. Um, okay. So let me just ask really quick, because we were talking before this, that you had started another podcast. And I think you were saying you had another business. How did you get into launching? What was what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah. So I actually I've been on like I've had online businesses for a while now. I actually started a blog back in like 2011 when blogging was in its heyday. Yes. And it was a like a health and fitness blog, kind of chronicling my journey to lose weight. And I uh had it was fairly successful. And I um I grew an audience and I was running these like 90-day like accountability groups. I was coaching before I even really realized that that's what that was. But to sell people into these accountability groups, I was doing like what I had discovered is called a five-day challenge. And so I didn't really realize that that's what I was doing, but I was running these little free challenges and then selling people into my 90-day accountability groups. And I was doing that and I was fairly successful at it. And I had people asking me in the health and fitness world, like, how are you selling people into these accountability groups? And I was like, Well, I'm doing this little challenge. Like, here's what I do. I set it up, like it's five days, and this is what I teach. And so many people were interested in that that I was like, okay, well, let me teach you how to run these five-day challenges. And so I created um my first course, I guess, and did my first launch. I launched it with a five-day challenge because that's what I knew how to do. Um, and I taught people how to fill their accountability groups with five-day challenges, specifically for health coaches. And I realized that I really liked it. Like I was fine at the health and fitness game, like I had that following or whatever. But more than that, I really liked launching and marketing. And like that was kind of what I was doing for fun. That I didn't like I was always creating content, I was always doing marketing, but I didn't realize that's what I was doing. And so it wasn't until I started teaching people how to do five-day challenges that I realized like this is what really lights me up. And so I started my business, like I started my course business and my first podcast, more about like this whole journey into like self-discovery. And the first podcast actually called Fearless, because I was like starting something new and kind of going through that process of becoming fearless. And I realized six short episodes into that podcast that like podcasting is a lot, and I was trying to do a lot at the same time. And so I shut that down. I started that in June of 2019 and kind of shut it down and really started to figure out my niche. I was going through a lot of transitions in my business at that point. I knew that I wanted to talk about marketing, I knew that I wanted to transition out of the health space, and I was kind of learning this whole new thing. And so I was doing that, like throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. And the podcast was one of those. And it wasn't until like the end of the year of 2019 that I was like, okay, I really like this launching thing. What and there were people outside of the health space that were asking me about five-day challenges and stuff because I had kind of become known for that. And I was like, well, let's expand. Like, what if instead of teaching five-day challenges, I teach launching as a whole? Because at that point I had done multiple launches. I made six figures in my first year in business. And so I had found some success with launching, and I was doing like I had honed in my process and I was doing things differently. So that was when I decided to launch, like to really pivot in my business into launching. And I launched my second podcast, which also was not specifically about launching. Um, I like didn't understand until late 2020, even that you should have a podcast that directly relates to your business. I don't know why that escaped me. Um, so my podcast that I started in February of 2020 was called Decide to Rise. And it was really like strategically, it was random thoughts with Jess. And every week I would show up and talk about what I wanted to talk about, but I was growing the podcast and getting traction. And as I was really building my business, teaching launching and teaching course creation and kind of that side of like what I had just done in the last year, I was teaching people how to do. And it wasn't until so I started that in February of 2020. I rebranded in like July of 2020 to the standout CEO podcast. And then in December of 2020, I actually like rebranded and shut down the old podcast into what it is now, which is called the Launch Fix podcast. So it was a continuity thing. So like I never stopped creating content, but I literally like shut down the old one, started up the new one, moved everybody over, um, and started it fresh with a clear perspective and a clear, like niched outcome, um, which has been so helpful, like having an actual plan. And I think my biggest lesson in that is that it's okay to start things and then stop them. Like it's okay to go all in on something and realize that that wasn't your direction. I think that we tend to think that when we pivot or when we change directions, that it's a failure, or that's what we've been conditioned to believe. And what I've instead realized is like climbing a mountain, when you get to a cliff and you're at like a point where either you have to turn or you're going to go off the side of the mountain, are you a failure? Or do you just turn and keep going up the mountain? Right. That cliff is not an indicator that you went the wrong way. It's an indicator that you need to go another way. And so rather than just jumping off the mountain and being like, I'm a failure, like you turn and you keep going up the mountain. And so all of these things are leading you to the ultimate top of the mountain, but you have to go through these lessons in order to figure out what is the right direction for you.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Oh my gosh, yes. Such a good analogy. And I'm so glad that you've shared that because this is my third podcast. I guess it's technically my second podcast, but like the third name for a podcast. Um, so I feel it, I feel very validated. So thank you. But there is all those feelings that's like, gosh, why can't I just stick with one thing? And the thing is uh is that like you, I would never know that like this is the podcast I wanted to start. And like I'm assuming the same thing for you had you not done the other three podcasts and done the other, you know, started with health and fitness. There's no way that you would have been like, oh, I think I'm gonna teach launching photos. And so I I love hearing those types of stories because I think it's so encouraging just to like start with where you're at. Yeah. Um, I I know that you have um let's see, you had talked about this piqued my curiosity, and I just have to ask you on your blog, you talked about the $51,000 mistake. Speaking of mistakes, can you tell us what that is? I'm so curious.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah, absolutely. It was actually a messaging mistake. So, something that I realized, so I was going through um my biggest launch to date was a $70,000 launch last summer. And I was like, I had put everything into this launch. And what I did was I I had a like a free offer, like I recommend having like a freebie. And then I had a five-day or five-part video series that was pre-recorded, and then I pitched people into my offer. And what I realized, so this is one of the biggest reasons. I'm gonna backpedal here. This is one of the biggest reasons why I teach what I teach and I talk about the scientific mindset. I went through this launch last summer, and I felt awful. Like, you know, like when you're launching and like you it feels so vulnerable and so raw, and all of your emotions are out, and you just want to hide in the corner and cry. Like that was this launch. The entire time going through it, I was so stressed. I had put so much attachment on the outcome. I was like, this is gonna be my six-figure launch. When I have this big launch, then I'm gonna be successful. Like then my husband can like stop driving Uber because he had already quit his job at that point, but he was still driving Uber. And like, then, like, then my family will be secure. All of these things, right? I had piled on all this meaning to the outcome of this launch. And as I started running the launch, I realized, like in my subconscious mind, that that outcome was probably not likely. And so what happened was like I started to panic and like go through all of the feelings of that launch to the point where like I remember distinctly sitting in the corner of my bedroom sobbing on the floor because I was like seeing this whole thing fall apart. And so at the end of the launch, I made $70,000, like $71,000 in like a week. Incredible, yeah. And it was like the biggest failure that I had ever gone through. And I was like, wait a second, like objectively, this was a good launch. Like, why do I feel like this? And that was really when I started to dig into the attachment and like having a scientific mindset, looking at the data. And I feel like we have to learn the lessons that we're meant to teach in such a raw and real way. Like, I was not able to fully understand and appreciate what I'm meant to help people with until I experienced it myself in like the most obvious way possible. And so I had objectively a very successful launch, but I had like all of this drama around it. And so it wasn't until I was doing the debrief of that launch that I recognized this mistake. And something I think a lot of people do, like this is something I see a lot of people do. So it's one that I'm excited that we're talking about. So I one of the things that I talk about in aligned launching is having aligned messaging. And something that a lot of people do is they will attract their ideal client or who they think they are with a freebie. And then it isn't really a direct line to their offer, right? They're like, oh, my audience wants to know more about email marketing. So I'm gonna throw this out there because I think it's what they want and I'll attract a bunch of people. But then when they go to market their offer, it's not a direct line, right? The people that you captured with your freebie aren't necessarily the right people for your offer. And that's exactly what I did. I created a my freebie was called the challenge fix, which is now actually a tiny offer on my website with some beef in it. Um, and so it was teaching people how to do a challenge launch, very on brand for me. And then I went from that into my video series, which was called The Secrets of a Standout CEO, which taught you like how to stand out online, more about like personal branding and messaging. And in my head, that completely made sense, right? In my head, I was like, yes, I'll get them with challenge launches, I'll teach them how to stand out, and then I'll sell them into my offer, which was called Standout or Standout Sales. I'm like, what was it called? And like it taught them how to do the thing that I promised in the video series. And I was like, okay, this makes complete sense. And then what happened was I had like 2,000 people opt into the challenge fix, and only 600 people opt into the video series. And I was like, wait a second, what happened to those other people? Like, what happened to all the people who opted into the challenge fix that didn't opt into the video series? And I realized was my messaging was not a line, right? It was not a straight line from here to here. And so often I see people do this. In fact, I have a friend who I have mentioned this to, and she hasn't taken my advice, and that's fine, you know, friends. And she has a tiny offer that's all about meal planning. And her offer that she wants them to get into is about minimalism and decluttering, and they don't convert, right? Because she attracts them on meal planning and tries to convert them into minimalism and decluttering. And those things are not aligned, though they seem aligned in our brain, right? Well, of course, somebody who's interested in meal planning is going to be interested in decluttering, but they're not. And so what happens is you lose people. And I like to think of it because analogies are definitely part of my superpower. And I feel like that's a five thing. You're so good at it. Yeah. Thank you. I like to look at it like a water slide, right? Like they have all these different pieces of the water slide. And those are the pieces of your launch connecting together. And your goal is to get people in the top of the water slide to come out the bottom of the water slide. But what happens when your messaging is not aligned is that your water slide tubes are not connected. There's space on the side. So what happens is people go in your water slide and then fall out the side of it. And that's not good, right? You don't want people falling out the side of your water slide and like to their demise. You want them to go through the water slide. And so that was the mistake that I made. And ultimately, the number of people who didn't connect, who then, based on the launch percentage conversion, would have been an additional $51,000 in revenue, which would have gotten me to my six-figure launch goal. Oh, wow. Yeah. And it was because of that disconnection in my messaging. And so that was such an aha for me. And how many people are losing money in their launches out the sides of their water slide because their messaging is not aligned. And the way that I like to think of it now, when I talk about like this phenomenon in this aligned messaging, is your freebie the carrot that attracts the rabbit for your offer? So, like if you imagine like those old cartoon rabbit traps, like uh what's his name? Wiley coyote, or no, not Wiley Coyote, the guy. Oh my gosh, you know what I'm talking about? I do know what you're talking about. Yes, yes. And he would like put the box with like the stick and the carrot underneath to trap Bugs Bunny. Like that carrot is exactly what's gonna trap Bugs Bunny. And so, what is the carrot that's gonna trap in like lack of a better term, but is going to like attract and like bring them into your funnel the right person for your offer? You wouldn't attract Bugs Bunny with like a cheeseburger. He's not interested in that. And so you want to make sure that the bait, for lack of a better term, that you're using with your freebie is going to attract the right client for your ultimate offer. And that's where you're going to tighten up that water slide and really bring people through your launches with your messaging.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Okay, that is mind-blowing. And I it is there like a quick tip or like something that we should be thinking about? Because I feel like in my personal experience and working with others, um, this freebie thing, like I don't know what it is, but people like obsess over creating it, um, stress over creating it, and then like are unable to move forward with anything because they can't get this freebie. So, what what tip, like a quick tip that do you have for us on for anybody who's maybe in that same spot?

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yeah, I would start with the end in mind. So I would know what your offer is before you create a freebie. I think a lot of people do that backwards, right? They're like, oh, I need to start attracting an audience, then I can come up with an offer. But at the end of the day, if you are attracting an audience without an offer in mind, you're not going to attract the right audience for the offer, right? So have the offer in mind first. Know what you're going to offer them at the end, and then ask yourself, what is the first thing they need to know to be the ideal client for this? Or what is, and this is something that I love talking about. And we've completely gone on a tangent, but it's so good. That's okay. I'm loving it. Yeah, it is so good. So I like to think of what is the symptom that they're experiencing of the problem that they are like that's the most painful for them. So when you go to the doctor, you go to the doctor because of a symptom. You don't know the cause, right? The doctor's gonna tell you what the problem is. You just know your symptoms. So you're like, hey, doctor, I have a headache. And then the doctor's like, okay, let's run some tests and we'll figure out like, are you dehydrated or do you have brain cancer? Like the answer, the problem is not what you know. You don't come into the doctor and say, Doctor, I have brain cancer. Like you come in and say, I have a headache. So your ideal client is not necessarily experiencing the problem that you solve. And we tend to market toward the problem that we solve, right? Because we're so into we know what the problem is, but your ideal client maybe doesn't. They know what their symptoms of the problem are. So if you can create a freebie that addresses the symptom that they're experiencing and then creates the understanding that, hey, this symptom is actually a symptom of this bigger problem, that's when you can attract people who have the problem that you solved because you attracted them with a solution to a symptom that they have. But you can also help them see that, like, hey, you're Headache is actually because of this. And this is what I'm going to help you solve, which is going to solve your headache and more. And that's when you can create that demand for your offer because you know what your offer is and you know what the symptom is that they're experiencing.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Oh my gosh, I feel like you're blowing minds with this right now. Blowing minds. Okay. And I know I was like, oh my gosh, so many more questions. But I want, I don't want to, I know you have other things to do with your life. So I'm going to run through just a few more that I had around launching and your offer specifically. But just what I'm hearing you say is that you teach launching. But here we are talking about understanding your offer, understanding your freebie, uh connecting your audience with this aligned messaging. And so we'll we'll, I'm sure we'll get more into this, but just like a quick takeaway that I'm having based on what you're saying is that yes, launching like is a part of this. And but there's so many other things that actually go into the launching that start before you even launch completely.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that a lot of people think that the launch is like the challenge and the card open. Like that is your launch. And ultimately, that is probably why your launches aren't that successful. Because your launch is not just the two-week period that you're selling something, your launch is everything leading up to that. And when you kind of zoom out and realize that your launch is really this like 90-day sequence leading up to that card open period, that's when you can start to better predict and improve your launch results. And I like to look at this from the point of an analogy because that's how my brain works, putting things together like a five does, um, is like a proposal, right? My husband asked me to marry him while I was brushing my teeth. I was literally like mid-toothbrush, and he was like, ah, and I was like, ah, and then I said yes. And I didn't say yes because his proposal was amazing. I didn't say yes because it was like romantic and all of the things. I said yes because of the years that we had been dating before the proposal. And that's the exact same thing with your launches. The people who are saying yes are not saying yes because of how you asked them. They're saying yes because of everything leading up to that. And so instead of just trying to perfect the two weeks that you're launching something, zoom out. And when you start to be intentional about building the relationship, or first attracting the right people who have the problem that you solve, building that trust and relationship with them, building that authority and demand for your offer before you ever launch, and then proposing the question, that's gonna lead to a much better launch experience for not only yourself but your audience, because it's not gonna come out of the blue. And they're going to already know that they need it, that they have the problem that you solve, and that you're the person who's going to solve it for them. So the question is really more of a formality at that point because they already are in. They already want what you have to offer. They just need you to ask for it. And so when you can start to really engineer that whole experience rather than just the two weeks, that's when you can create a much better launch experience and better results.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Oh my gosh, you are the queen of analogies. That proposal is real, that analogy, like so good. So, so, so good. Um, I know that one of the freebies that you have, I think it's a freebie on your website is your ebook around five reasons your offer isn't converting.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Would you be willing to share maybe one or two of those reasons and then people can check out the other reasons on your website?

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the biggest reasons, and this is something that I think not a lot of people talk about, and so that's why I want to talk about it today. One of the biggest reasons your offer might not be converting is the price. And I think that there is this, and I might, I'm trying to like make sure this is relevant to your audience. I think it will be. Um, we tend to go into pricing from a business perspective, right? We are business owners in the business owner space. And so we tend to see high-ticket prices meaning things over $100. That isn't high ticket in like the world of high ticket, but like we see things priced over $100 and think that that's the norm, right? We're like, oh, okay, $297, $497, $9.97 for a course. Fine. I'm happy to pay that. And so then what happens is that people whose business is business to consumer, B2C, they start to think they start to price their offers like they see. So they price their offers $297, $997 for whatever their offer is and struggle to see conversions. And at the end of the day, people who are a business owner make purchasing decisions from a different place than a consumer. And I didn't realize this on a tangible level until earlier this year, I was looking for a course on, I think it was organization. Like I wanted to like really organize my new home. And I was like, hey, does anybody have any recommendations for a course on organization? And a friend of mine who was not in the business space was like, Hey, this person's really great, but her program's really expensive. And I was like, Oh, okay. And I clicked on it, expecting like $1,000. It was $79. And I was like, is $79 expensive? And then I started thinking, well, she's a mom of three. She works at a school, like she has bills to pay, she has a fixed income. Yeah, $79 is expensive. That's like a month of soccer camp for her son. Like that is a lot of groceries. Like you can buy quite a bit of food for $79. That's a meal out, right? And so I realized in that moment that consumers, people who don't have a business, make purchasing decisions from the place of what is this costing me? What? So when they see a course that's like $397, that's a car payment, right? They see $9.97, that's a mortgage payment. And so they're like, what is this costing me? What else could I buy that I now no longer can because of this? And that's where their purchasing decisions are coming from. Where a business owner, we say, What will this make me? What's the ROI? How much more can I make because of this? And so we see money in a very different way. We see money as something we can literally create. And this program is going to help us create more money. So of course we can spend $20,000 on a mastermind. We see the ROI. But $20,000 is a car, like a full car. And so a consumer would look at that and be like, what are you talking about? Or we're like, yeah, $20,000, here you go. You know, and so it's a completely different purchasing mindset. And if you are in the business to consumer space and you're pricing like you see business to business pricing, that's one of the reasons why your offer is likely not converting because you are not pricing from the perspective that they're buying.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

So good. Such a great, I've never thought about like those different mindsets, but I mean, there are people on here who, you know, health coaches come to mind specifically. Um, and that is more of like that P2C. And um yes, I I never, I never really thought about like a business owner thinking, what do I get versus a consumer thinking, what does this cost me? And I'm now I'm you got me thinking, like in my own life, personal wise, I'm probably buying that way too.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Yeah, totally. I do the same thing. Like I so I was looking at or I saw an ad for it's Dave Hollis and Heidi. Oh yes, whatever they're so cute.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

I love that they're together. It's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Oh my god, they're like they're perfect, but they're doing like a fitness challenge together. And I clicked on the link for it and it's like 197. And I was like, do I really want to pay 197 for an online fitness challenge? Where like if it was like a 197 about like copywriting or marketing or anything, like it'd be like, no problem. Like, yeah, I can deal with a 197, no issue. But I think it like it's about different solutions to different problems, and we make those decisions from different places.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

So, what should somebody think? So if they are, you know, their main client is a consumer, like what should they how should they be thinking about pricing? Is it like, do they ask? Do they see what other people are doing in the market? Like, what's like a how do how would they come up with um uh like a maybe a more enticing, yeah, line aligned?

SPEAKER_00 53:30

So I have, and this is something I'm trying to remember if this is in that freebie or not, but I have three questions that I ask. The first question is what is a hell yes price for me? What is the price where I feel like I can show up and deliver on this? And that I feel like is also an equitable exchange for my energy? This is such a powerful question because I think, especially in the lower ticket world, we tend to think like, well, I don't want to get out of bed for less than $300 or whatever. And so, really, like that's a good question to ask. What is the what is the right price in my body for me? And then the second question is what is an equitable exchange for the transformation? So, what is the value of the transformation for your ideal client? And so is it is the transformation of that program worth $50? Like, is it worth $100? What is the value exchange for your ideal client? And then that third piece, which we kind of talked about with B2B to B2C, is what is a hell yes price for your client? And that's the one that most people don't ask. And it's so funny because sales and like pricing is a relationship, it's a two-way street. You can say, Well, this is worth $100,000 to me. And this, like the ROI on this, when you organize your house, you're going to make $100,000. But at the end of the day, is your ideal client see it that way? What is the right price for them? And I think that those questions are really important to ask. Like, what is the right? What is the right price for me? What is the value of the transformation? And what is the right price for them? And then really checking in on yourself, what am I making this price mean about me? Because oftentimes we think, well, no, I'm I'm more valuable than 197. I'm worth more than that. And it's like, well, yes, but your worth is not monetary. You're worth an infinite amount of money. Your worth has nothing to do with your pricing. And we in this industry tend to equate our prices with our worth. And like, well, I'm worth more than that. And it's like, well, you are not worth anything monetarily because your worth is not monetary. So it's not the same thing. And shifting this mindset that low ticket equals low revenue or low ticket equals low profit. And I don't think that's true at all. It's just a different way of building your business. You can build a wildly successful business with a low-ticket offer. For example, I was in a group coaching program last year with a girl who has a $19 a month meal planning membership. $19 a month. And every single time she launched it, she made over six figures. She had over six figure launches every single time with a $19 product. Do not tell me that you cannot make money with a low-ticket offer. I think that's totally crap. It's just a different, it's a different way of marketing. It's a different consumer. It's a different product. And I think that we get so clouded because we're in B2B, right? Well, so and so is charging this much. So and so makes this much. Like I'm worth that much too. But if your offer is for consumers, it's a different game, right? It's we see the B2B, but you have to start to see the B2C if that's who your consumer is.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Yeah, I don't, I really don't hear people talking about that. It's just like kind of a pricing conversation in general. Um, so I think this is like you have me thinking because even even for myself, you know, there's um this podcast obviously is for other business owners, but then there's like workshops that I do that would I would love to use as a funnel to do more like life coaching. And that is like more B2C. So now you have me, you got me thinking, Jess. Um, and let's see, you just said something else. Pricing. Oh, I lost it. Um, I mean, your your website in general is just like alone a wealth of knowledge. And I have so many more notes around like more pricing questions, bonuses. Um, so you know, if you're loving what Jess is sharing and getting value, I just I'm gonna recommend she'll tell us where she's hanging out most of the time in just a second, but I have one more question for you just to try and at least finalize this part of our time together. But you also have um been talking about kind of the future for content creation. And I was just curious, like trends, like what should we know around creating content? Um, because and that is something that a lot of this audience is focused on doing, whether it's graphics, whether it's for a blog or a podcast, what should we know going into the future for creating compelling content?

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Yeah. So I think that one of the biggest things here is that one of the biggest struggles that people make around creating content is creating content just for the sake of creating content. And I totally get it. We live according to the algorithm that's telling us now more than ever that more is more, right? They're going back to this idea that you need to post multiple times a day. We need to create reels, we need to create stories, we need to create carousels and all the things. And I think that we can get really caught up trying to play the game of like, well, I just need to pump out more content. I need to have quotes, I need to have shareable things, I need to have things that people save and education content, and just really getting overwhelmed with the beast of social media content creation. And I think that that it becomes this like this monster that you can't stop feeding. And at the end of the day, are you feeding them like cheeseburgers or are you feeding them filet mignon? Right. And I think that the algorithm wants you to feed it cheeseburgers. It wants more, but your audience is not the algorithm. Your audience will supersede that, right? Think of somebody that you love following on social media. And I can think of multiple people where this is true. I seek out their content. I open up Instagram, and if I don't see them, I search their name. I subscribe to their content internally, whether the algorithm shows it to me or not. I seek them out. I consume their content on purpose, whether they're in my circles of stories to watch or not. And that is what you have an opportunity to create with your audience. Ignore the algorithm. Stop serving cheeseburgers because the algorithm wants you to serve cheeseburgers. Serve filet mignon. Create quality content that your audience wants to consume, that they seek out intentionally, that they are searching for your name if they don't see you. And when you create this higher quality content, you're going to become known for that. And the people who are for you will be for you, whether you show up on their feet or not. And one of the biggest pieces of this is looking at content creation in service of your business. I think there's a lot of people who are content creators without any clear intention. And this is exactly what I was doing with my first podcast. I was creating a podcast because I felt like that's what I needed to have. But none of the episodes, not like none of the episodes had anything to do with my business. They didn't lead people to my offer. They didn't indoctrinate people into the belief system that I was creating around what I teach. And so it wasn't really serving a purpose. It was just another mouth to feed. And so rather than just creating content for the sake of creating content, go back to what I said with your freebie, begin with the end in mind. Where do you want them to go? What do you want them to purchase at the end of this process? What do you need them to believe? What do they need to know in order to be ideal clients for that offer? And then how can you create content that creates demand for that offer, that qualifies them as ideal clients for that offer, that helps them overcome objections for that offer and really create content that moves them down the path to your offer rather than creating content just for the sake of creating content.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Jess, you are amazing. I want to talk to you for another hour. Selfishly, I want to talk to you for another hour. But I'm going to let you go. I do have a couple of rapid fire questions that I like to ask all the guests. But before we do those, um, what do you have going on right now? Because I feel like after all these like knowledge bombs, these amazing analogies, people are like, okay, how can I learn more? How can she be one of those people that I seek out on Instagram? So where are you hanging out? What do you have going on right now? What should we know about what you're doing and how you're helping?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

Yeah. So my primary place, I'm on Instagram and I have a podcast. So the podcast is called the Launch Fix Podcast, where I talk all about online marketing, launching, all of that. And then I'm on Instagram. And I actually just did something really innovative with my Instagram. I deleted my feed. I know. Oh my gosh. Oh, you'll have to check it out. I archived over 500 Instagram posts. And instead, I created a what I'm calling an Insta funnel. So I now just have nine posts that really talk about like it's that quality thing, right? They talk about what I do, how I help people, the beliefs that I have, the my values, and really walk you through that clear customer journey into my offer. And so if you want to learn more about what I do, you can read through those posts. They're very valuable as well, and kind of teach you more about me and how I help people. But I also show up on stories and I'll be creating more reels in the future, but for the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:32

Wait, so what you're telling me is, and I just pulled up her Instagram feed as she was telling me this, and it is it's really beautiful, like design-wise. And then it looks like she has some like amazing content in the captions. But what you're saying is like that's almost like a landing page, and you're not necessarily creating more content for the feed. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

I am, yes, it is, it's a static feed. I know. And here's why Instagram hates the feed. You guys can try, we can try to fight it, but Instagram is not prioritizing the feed. Feed reach is terrible, like engagement is terrible, it's not being shown to new accounts. So Instagram wants you to use Reels. The good news is Reels has its own feed, so you can create your feed as a static feed and still create reels and not share them to your feed and just leave them in the reels feed. And so you can start to attract clients through the reels. And then that when they land on your profile, there's a really clear direction of where to learn more about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Okay, that is some type five energy right there. I will tell you, because type fives are amazing at setting boundaries. And I just feel like that was like a hard boundary that you just put on your Instagram and like content creation for yourself and managing your energy. And oh my goodness. Okay. You guys are gonna have to check that out. Okay, so real quick, um, I'm gonna do my best not to respond. I'm just gonna let you take their rapid questions, but they don't have to be rapid answers. What is something that you are learning right now? And it can be business, it can be about personal. What's what's something new you're learning? I'm learning Spanish.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

I started using Duolingo about a month and a half ago. I have not missed a day yet. Um, and I love it. I am a huge fan of learning new things. I think it keeps our brain fresh. Um, and so I'm learning Spanish for fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:28

Also, very type five. Love learning new things. You gotta feed to feed the the knowledge beast. What about something you're unlearning? And I like this question because I almost feel like if we did nothing else except for unlearn things, like we would be that much better off. Um, what what about for you? What's what's the thing you're unlearning?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

I'm unlearning that there is a right way to do things. Like so many people have told me like your Instagram is gonna tank, you're never gonna grow if you've if you stop posting on the feed. And I was I don't think that's true. So I am unlearning all of the things that we're told are facts and figuring out a better way.

unknown 1:06:08

So good.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

And then what about we hear all this talk right now about living your best life? What does that mean for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

I think for me, that means living a life of boundaries. I love that you point that out. Like really compartmentalizing my business and like living my life. And so that for me right now has meant spending a lot of time in bed. Um, I take my kids to school and I pick up my little one at 11. And then while she's napping, I lay in bed and I'm not sleeping, but I'm resting and I am really recharging my energy. I watch TV with my husband in the middle of the day. And it has just been magical.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

Oh my gosh, I love that. Um, and that's you know, there is there's somebody else that I follow um that talks about just kind of like busting through like the right way that we're taught by some of these like celebrity influencers and marketing, and that's there's no right way again, but it's just like, yeah, taking time to understand like what is success look for you. And it it may not be a monetary amount, um, but it's like the freedom to sit in the middle of the day and watch TV with your husband, I think is like beautiful and such a definition of success. Um, and then real quick, because I I'm a book nerd, I actually one of my podcasts was called an open book podcast. Um, I always like to like uh ask people um a good book recommendation. And I know you had mentioned the Go Giver. Um, what did you love about that book?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

I feel like if you haven't read Go Giver, it is literally the shortest personal development book in the history of the world. It is like a hundred pages. Um, the audiobook is three hours, and that includes the intro and outro. So, like it is the fastest read ever. What I loved about it is that one, it's a parable, which means it's a story that teaches a lesson. And I think a lot of times reading personal development or growth books can be really dry and boring. And one thing I love about it is that it is a story, so it's very consumable, but it teaches such a beautiful lesson around the energetics of giving and receiving. And instead of being a go-getter, somebody who's after what they want, being a go-giver and somebody who creates that energetic exchange of giving and create like it's just it's a fascinating book. It's fantastic. It talks about the five laws of stratospheric success, which are all about giving. And it's such a powerful paradigm shift and completely changed the way that I show up in relationships, show up in my business, and show up in my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Okay, that sounds like yeah, an amazing one. And then last question. Um, you just you just have such a gift for explaining things, storytelling, using um analogies. And then it just feels like, you know, sometimes sales, launching, putting out an offer can feel like really icky, some sometimes unaligned. So I love this ideology that you have around creating aligned offers. And I just want to ask, because I'm curious and I know that there has to be somebody else that's curious, if we're thinking about launching in the next three to six months, like what do you have for us? Like, how could we work for you or work with you? Um, like what's what's coming up? Do you have anything coming up around helping people launch?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Yeah, so my primary offer is actually an ongoing program called the launch lab. And so in it, I help you really create the mindset of a scientist and your launches. We set up your launch experiment, we run it, and then we run it three more times over the course of a year. It's a 12-month program, and you're really designing your launch and then testing it and tweaking it and learning from it over the course of a year. Um, it is a higher ticket program for people who already have a signature offer. But if you are not there yet, I do have some lower ticket options and one that I'm actually like ruminating on right now. So, depending on when you're listening to this, I may have a new offer out there. I am really feeling called to serve people who are more at this level in their business, like who are really getting started, creating their first offer and doing it the right way the first time. And so um, stay tuned. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

Well, I'll get with you before this airs here in a few weeks and we'll see where you're at. And if it makes sense, we'll throw that link in. Um, but either way, you'll be able to keep up with what she's doing in those other areas. So, Jess, thank you so much for being here. I told her at the beginning, I was like, we'll try and keep this around like 45 minutes and like an hour. Oh good, hour and a half, but it's so jam-packed. I feel like every minute. So I appreciate you for being here um and for all that you shared. And I know that our listeners do as well. So thanks so much, Jess. Of course, thanks for having me.