SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of the Enneagram MBA podcast. Today you are in for a treat, as always. Um, and we're gonna do something a little bit different with this episode that I've never done before. And that is, I am pulling an episode from the podcast archives, and it's not the Enneagram MBA um podcast archives, it is from the archives when I had my former podcast called the Social Scholars Podcast. And that's still out there. It was all about social media and marketing, and I had some amazing guests with very, very tangible tips. So that's still out there if you ever want to check that out. But at the time, I had not started my path to Enneagram, um, working with the Enneagram professionally and becoming a certified coach. And so last year I had invited Stephanie Baron Hall, who is an author of the book, The Enneagram in Love, a roadmap for building and strengthening romantic relationships. She is a speaker. She runs the very popular Instagram account, Nine Types Co., always sharing unique insights and Enneagram wisdom. And she also is a podcast host of her own podcast called Ask an Enneagram Coach. And I had invited her on the Social Scholars podcast last year to let us know about the Enneagram to talk about her newest book at the time, the Enneagram in Love. And I so I I pulled some of my favorite, a lot of my favorite parts from that interview, and I'm sharing them with you in this episode. So it's not a continuous interview. Um, you'll hear di different pieces broken up, um, but we really get into her take on the Enneagram. And I love this. I think it's important to hear different people's opinions and insights. And so she shares her own experience getting into the Enneagram, what the Enneagram means to her, the benefits of it. She gives her um understanding and of the of the nine types. So you'll get to hear that, which is really was really good. Um, I love how she worded things, how she explains things. I think you'll appreciate it too. And then um, we get into answering audience questions in the second half, and um these questions came from um just asking asking the audience, um, asking folks over on Instagram last year what they wanted to know about the Enneagram as it applies to relationships. So there's questions about compatibility, there's questions about what to what to know if you're you're dating or in a relationship with the same type as you. Um, we have a type three question, we have a type nine question, we have um questions around validation. And so I think you're gonna really get a lot out of this one with Stephanie. And I do want to say, since this interview with her, she has pulled together um an incredible online course called the Enneagram in Real Life. Right now, the wait list is open. There is training, there is weekly support calls, she has workbooks for you, and it's all about how to use the Enneagram in real life. And so I'm gonna include the link in the show notes here. Um, she also has a link over on her Instagram account if that makes more sense to get it from there. But definitely check that out. Um, check it out and get on the wait list um for when she opens that and shares more information. Looks like an amazing, amazing course. So, without further ado, here is the interview episode with Stephanie Baron Hall. Welcome to the Enlighten Info Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your guests, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. You'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others, like your future clients, and to help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gift and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. So tell tell me a little bit about how you even got into the Enneagram. Like that's and then we'll get into high-level what it is. Um let's let's start there.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Well, I think that a lot of you are listeners will probably resonate with my story a little bit. So I I have I have this kind of tendency to to start doing something and then to turn it into a business. So, for example, for a while I was working full time, and in the meantime, like on the weekends, you know, my free time or whatever that is, um, I started uh doing like wedding florals. So I was a wedding florist for a few years. So that was my first business. And then I kind of stepped away from that, was still working full-time, learned about the Enneagram actually through my husband and my sister. They're like, oh, you would like this. So I started getting into it, started learning about it. About a year and a half after I learned about it, um, I decided to create coffee mugs for each Enneagram type. That's amazing. So have you heard of the podcast Side Hustle School?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yes. Let's see. Yeah. So is that Chris?

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Chris Gillibo. Yes. Oh my god, yes. Okay. So I was listening to his podcast and I was like, oh my gosh, like I could create these coffee mugs. So and so again, my little hobby, the Nagram, became a business, right? So I hired a designer, I got these icons made, everything, got it up for a holiday uh 2017. I was in e-commerce merchandising at the time. So um I got it up for holiday 17 and it was fun. It was it was really fun. And then kind of after the holidays, it dropped off, and then 2018 holidays came around. But in that intervening year, I really dug into what the Ennegram is, and I started teaching it, and I got a certification to coach using the Enneagram. And then I started saying that what did well in my Instagram was not the coffee mugs, but was actually like the stuff about the Enneagram. And I was like, well, this is what I want to talk about anyway. So I pivoted and here we are.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Here we are today. And now you're a published author talking, writing about the Enneagram. Um what no, wait, what was what were on your coffee mugs?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Like just like a like saying so so we um created like these icons, um, and they're they're actually still available on Etsy, but it's like a little, it almost looks like a badge, kind of. Um, it kind of has like a vintage-y feel to it, but I basically thought of you know, what are these different images that represent different types? So, for example, the type three, there's uh a mountaintop, I think. I'm like trying to remember now what all of them are because we had 18. We had we had two different designs for each type. Um, and then it would say like the achiever at the bottom. So really uh they're they're kind of like these concepts, and then it had like the little name for the type.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Oh my god, that's so fun. That you know what? I s I started off well, one of my mini ideas too. I feel like we have a lot in common with an Amazon product.

unknown 7:49

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

It was like a baby, it was a baby product. Terrible idea, but it it is fun to like create something. Um, but I love, okay, so you took it to Instagram, you started to like see what people were engaging with, pivoted that way, which happens, right? Yeah. Um, that's how it always happens most of the time. It's like we never start out. So before we get too much further ahead, I'm going, I'm coming to this conversation, assuming that most of the listeners have an inkling of what the Enneagram is. But just so we can kind of get on somewhat of the same page, can you give us a quick overview? And by no means do you have to deep dive into each type, but can you just talk about what it is and how it might different differentiate from other personality types?

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah. So, I mean, we've all heard the Enneagram term being thrown around, right? So, and it is confusing because it it's not super clear what it is, it's not as simple as some of the other personality profiling systems. So, in short, I call it a personality profiling system. I don't really love that. I think that the Enneagram is more about personal growth work than a lot of other systems are. So I think that's really important. Um, but basically it's oriented around nine archetypes, which are nine different core motivations. So it's not so much how you look on the outside or your behavior, but it's really about your internal motivation. And these nine core motivations basically are kind of oriented around this shape, which is the Enneagram shape. Um, and it's really different from something like Myers Briggs or something like Strengths Finder, something like Disc, um, in that it's it is motivation-based, like I said, and it's also growth-oriented. So you, I mean, we don't learn our Enneagram type just to describe ourselves. A lot of memes on Instagram will have you believing that, but but actually it's about that inner work. Um, so that's kind of what differentiates it. And I actually kind of got my start using the Enneagram because I was using a different motivation-based personality um tool in the workplace. And I just love that concept of like I think it's way better than using something like disk, which is just very high level in terms of behavior, whereas the Enneagram goes a lot deeper.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Oh my god, it goes so deep. Like you got wings and subtypes and all this stuff, and we're not gonna get into that today, but I I do, and I love, and you did a great job of explaining it in your in your book too, about it being motivation-based, which I think is maybe a great place to start talking about relationships because so many of us I think can get frustrated with our partners or our loved ones or friends because of their actions without understanding motivations. Yeah. So what let me just ask you this really quick. So, what what motivated you to write? And by the way, tell will you tell our listeners what number you are? Yeah, I'm type three. Okay, type three, and that's the achiever. She talked about that. So we'll and we'll we'll maybe get into some of the the specifics. But what motivated you to write a book about love in the Enneagram?

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Well, it's kind of funny. Um, to be honest, the the way that the publishing world is working now is really um where publishers actually are pitching books to potential authors. So this is the book I got pitched. Um the this is the first book I since then I've been pitched to several other books, but this is the first book I got pitched. And it's really interesting because, like I mentioned, I love talking about the Enneagram at work. And so I the past two months have been like, why did I write this book about love? But when you start thinking about it, work, coworker relationships, and love relationships, they're both interpersonal communication, um, tend to be more intimate relationships that are fraught with conflict and miscommunication, right? So that's, I mean, it is about love, it is about improving our individual relationships. Um, but I also just see it as a more holistic aspect of who we are. We all have some sort of intimate relationship, whether or not it's you know romantically intimate, we have some sort of relationship, and this book is gonna help with that.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

What are some of the I guess the common um, I don't know if it's mistakes or problems, like we just talked about the dishwasher, that you see that just having maybe a better understanding of and where the Enneagram might be able to help in some of those situations. And we're gonna get into some specific questions later, but just from what you see.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah, I think the first one is just understanding core motivation that other people that you don't get to ascribe your motivation to somebody else's behavior. Um, and the other thing that that does is it helps empathy, like it helps you cultivate empathy for your partner because you understand that while your demons are, you know, maybe that you have this really harsh inner critic, your other, your partner's big thing might be that they feel like they're not worthy unless somebody else tells them that they're loved. And and so when you start to cultivate some empathy for the different types, um, you actually can like have that simple thing um will will really help. Um, the other, let's see, other issues that people run into. I would say like assuming poor intent or like bad intentions, that's a big one. Um like for example, one thing that I get quite asked about a lot actually is type one and type nine is a really, really common pairing. And not to get too particular, but type nines tend to need a lot more downtime and processing. And so from other types, they're like, oh, that's lazy. But actually, they have other stuff going on inside that is contributing to that issue. So once like it's kind of like I mean, it's like the motivation thing I was just saying, but once you understand like they've got other stuff, it's not personal, then it really opens up the relationship for a lot more growth and a lot more connection because um when you're able to communicate, hey, like I actually do want to be connected with you, but this is what's going on. Um you can like that's how you get connection, right? That communication is so important. Yeah, and that's actually the thing I really love about the Enneagram is that some of the other personality profiling systems don't really look at your like the bad, like the shadow side. They don't look at the negative aspects of you. And what that does is it is it basically assumes that if you just increase the positive sides, that you can ignore the negatives, but you can't. And so to actually do the the work and to do the inner work to have better relationships, you have to do your own work to look inside, look at the stuff you don't want to look at, your blind spots, shadow sides, those types of things. And that's that's how you can grow. So um, when we're in our type and our our very um kind of average levels of health, we'll end up looking like the stereotypes. We'll end up looking like all the memes you see on Instagram of the different Enneagram types. That is very like those are stereotypes, but when you grow and you become more healthy, you actually have more balance and you don't look as much like your Enneagram type because you are more balanced in the way that you present in the world because you're not ruled by this personality structure or framework. Especially with that communication and conflict piece, I think that is like one of the most important aspects of the book. Um, and the levels of development too. If if anyone's not familiar, levels of development means basically if you're healthy in your type, if your average levels of health in your type, or if you're unhealthy in your type. And how your type plays out will look different in those different levels. For type ones, type ones are often called the fixer, the reformer, or the improver. I don't typically use those words or the labels, only because I think that sometimes people hear, oh, the perfectionist. I'm I'm a perfectionist, so I must be this type. It doesn't really work like that. So, but some people find them helpful. So type ones are really motivated by the need to be good, right, and correct. Their strength is really that they offer excellence in the world, they bring excellence in everything that they do. Their weakness is that they're highly self-critical, and that can really shoot them in the foot a lot of the time because they don't actually see how good they are. They think they should always do better. And should is a big word for ones. Should themselves. Um, you know, a few ones.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Oh, yeah, yeah. And and yes, I do. Yes, I think I do anyway.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah. The type twos um are the helper, the befriender, or the giver, and they are motivated by the need to be loved, and they believe that they're most loved, wanted, and needed when they are being helpful to others. So they they are altruistic when they're um when they're healthy, but sometimes they can be a little bit manipulative when they're not as healthy. So their strength is that they're very connective and relational. Their weakness, though, is that they don't believe that they need any help or even any care for themselves. So they kind of forget about self-care and just care for everyone else, which is not sustainable. No, it is not, and I think you see a lot of twos start to run into that, especially once they learn the integer, and they're like, oh my gosh, I've never actually cared for myself before.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Um, yeah, it's hard. Type threes are the achiever or the performer. I like the performer because it kind of gets at the fact that they are performing rather than that because the achiever makes it sound like threes are always the most successful, but that's not necessarily the case. Um, they're motivated by a need to find their worth in their productivity. So that can sometimes look like being successful, and sometimes it just looks like being um finding their worth wherever other people see worth in them. And their strength is really that they're adaptable and they're very driven, and they can kind of make friends with anyone because they can adjust who they need to be in in the room, but their weakness is that they just don't know how to turn it off. They don't know how to turn off the shape shifting and they don't know how to turn off the drive forward.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

So is that is that really hard? Is it hard then, I'm assuming, to get to know a three because they're they are the shape shifting? It can be.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

I think that threes, when they're in a relationship that is closer, they tend to be very genuine. And especially threes in specific um uh cultural upbringings. Um, like I grew up in the Bible Belt in the South, right? So there is an aspect of being in that environment where I believed that to be vulnerable was to be successful in that environment. Like that's what was expected of me. So I learned how to be vulnerable. Um so so you you have these things where it's like, and I will say that type of vulnerability, that performative vulnerability isn't true vulnerability. It's actually just it's it's a learned trait. It's not not necessarily what we're after, but there is an aspect of threes where they will shape shift, but they also they they are very genuine when you actually get to know them. It's just that if they don't trust you yet, or if they're if you're not the person that they're gonna process with, then you you don't get to know them.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

They kind of keep you at arm's length.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah. Um, and and that was one, and I don't want to cut you off because I want to keep going, but that was one thing in the intimacy intimacy section for each type. It seemed like there was a difference, but there was some common theme of like really needing to feel seen and trust in order to have that. And that that probably I'm sure looks different for each number. Um, but that seemed to be like a common theme was feeling, I don't know, safe, or you probably have better words, but just feeling trust that they could trust somebody in order to open up and not have performative vulnerability, but true vulnerability and connection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's challenging. And um, I'm sure we'll get to this in a minute, but there there are those different aspects of and levels of comfort with each of the types. Um, so for type fours, they are called the romantic or the individualist. They're motivated by the need to find their true heart. And I when I say that, I know it sounds like really woo woo, but Fours get it. Like fours, I've I've had a couple of podcast interviews recently with fours, and when I say that, they're like, oh. They just, they just like they're like, oh, I I just feel that so deeply. You know what I mean? Oh, that's so fun. So fours, their strength is really that they think outside the box. They're creative, but that doesn't always mean artsy. That really means that they don't have like some sort of, you know, um predetermined box that they have to stay inside. They they are a lot more creative in the way that they think, in the way that they approach things. Um, and their weakness is that they have all these big dreams, but they don't tackle them often because actually doing the work, the action part, that feels really hard. And so often they defeat themselves before they even get to that action part. Um, and unfortunately that turns into a bit of a cycle.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Well, I maybe you'll talk about this in a second, but as a seven, that kind of resonates with me. Yeah. Um, okay, and you know, something that jumped out at me with the four that I hadn't ever really thought about too, and feel free to expand on is like if you are in a relationship with the four, maybe you are one, um like getting creative with solutions. I don't know, because it like sometimes I've I've hear like other couples' fights, and like somebody will bring up an idea and the other person's like, that's so stupid. But it's like who knows what their number is, right? But just like even creativity and maybe out-of-the-box thinking when it comes to like coming up with solutions for that specific relationship. I don't know if that could be a strength for them. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay, number five.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Fives are the investigator or the observer, and they're motivated by the need to be competent and self-sufficient. And part of part of that is that they want to conserve their resources, they want to conserve their energy so that they don't end up feeling depleted. So they tend to kind of self-isolate because they they want to make sure that nothing else can deplete their energy. Their strength is really that they're always the most competent person in the room because they do so much research. And once they actually speak up about something, they know what they're talking about. Their weakness, though, is that getting out of their head and actually doing the thing, like speaking up or taking action, or um, you know, moving forward with a project or with a relationship, even that part is really hard. So sometimes they might, you know, have a crush on someone for a very long time before they actually do anything about it, or they might wait for the other person to do something about it.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

So interesting. Okay, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

So sixes are the trooper, the guardian, or the loyalist, and they're really motivated by the need to be safe and secure and to have kind of an alliance or guidance um in life. And sixes are interesting because there are a couple different types of sixes and they have the same core motivation, but they look totally different on the outside. So some sixes seem more like twos on the outside, where they're a little bit um, I would say like a little bit less overt about everything. They're just like more in um isolated or turning inward a little bit more. Um, very helpful. Whereas the other type of sixes, they look more like eights, which we'll get to in a second, where they're a little bit more confrontational. But both sixes have the strength of troubleshooting, which is they can see what might go wrong. Um, and that's that's real strength because they can make a plan for it. Yeah, there's their weakness though, is that they can see what might go wrong and it goes into overdrive and that turns into anxiety. Yeah, and so they just spiral in their in their heads.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yeah, I think could could they also be dream squashers? I'm kind of teasing, I'm kind of teasing. Um but that that safe and um wanting to like protect, I'm sure themselves and the people they love um could come across maybe in like a in a in a dream-crushing way. Maybe like because they immediately think of the practicality.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Yes, this is where like motivation, I think, just is like so important and understanding each other versus like they're not being mean or like dismissive. It's like, no, this is how they are. Oh my god, so good. Okay, wheel is okay, so six and then sevens.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Sevens are called the enthusiasts, sometimes they're called the epicure, which is kind of a fun title for them, but um, they're motivated by the need to be free of pain, um, and to really like to be free to pursue any opportunity. And that really means avoiding pain, right? And sometimes pain for sevens is boredom, sadness, um, physical pain actually, I don't think is as scary to sevens as the emotional pain or or just being bored. They just hate that feels physically painful for sevens. Yeah, that feels true. Yes, I know. Yeah, so their weakness is really that they're fun and enthusiastic and kind of can get anyone on board with whatever they're doing, which is an incredible gift to their relationships and to people around them. And their weakness is really that being present is hard because it requires slowing down enough and slowing their minds enough to actually be in their body and to feel their feelings. And that's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yes. I will just I will just share, like it, like I don't love to have hard conversations. I think I'm like again, like going back to the like this is my box, but like I'm working to get out of my box. Um, so I'm I'm aware of that, but I could definitely see um how I've maybe just walked away from people, kind of like shut people out because it got too complic complicated. Yeah, feelings, emotions, right? Um, it wasn't fun anymore. So that that's real. And that's um, I mean, and just I think it's just been a year now since I've really understood the any of it, I'm not even understood it, but just became aware of it. Um, and that's been really helpful, even just like with friendships. I have to like assess like, am I avoiding, am I just dismissing too quickly? Like, is there something here that I need to to do a better job of yeah, being available for?

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah, and but I think that that is so powerful. Once sevens really have that more integrated experience of life, there's so much more available, like so much more depth and opportunity available to you when you stop running. I mean, and that's true for all of us, right? When we stop doing the thing that we're avoiding, there's actually a lot more life that's available.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yes. And is there is it true that like we have, I think I heard this, but I don't know from where, so it might not be a credible source, that we all have pieces of the Enneagram inside of us, each number, it's just that one is more dominant. So if you resonate with some of this, is that an accurate way of saying that?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah, so there are a lot of other like Enneagram theory reasons why we resonate with with different types. For example, if you're in the same stance as a different type, which we don't have time to get into today, or if you're in the same intelligence center, or um if it's one of your arrows. So all of those Enneagram lingo things.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Um get the book.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Yeah. But but yes, it in general, and and that's what I was kind of alluding to earlier when I talked about balance, because you will see more of a balance of all nine types when you are healthier, because we all do have aspects of each type in us. It's just that we have one core motivation. Um, and even when we're the healthiest we ever have been, we still have that same core motivation. Um, it just plays out differently.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Okay, and so that's a question that I've heard in general about the Enneagram, and I don't always know what to say is um are we so we're born with this motivation and it it does not change. Is that correct? Right, yeah. Okay, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

There are a lot of reasons why people think that their types change, but it doesn't change, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Okay, okay, there you go. You it's on the record, it doesn't change. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

So type eights um are the challenger or the protector sometimes, and they're always the protector, they're sometimes called the protector. Um, eights are motivated by the need to protect themselves from feelings of betrayal or vulnerability and um to prevent themselves from seeming weak. So they kind of portray this exterior of strength, and they are very strong. Like that, that really is their their strength, is their strength, that they um are tough-minded, that they are really they know what they want and what they need, and they're not willing to compromise on that. Their weakness is also that that toughness or that that outer strength, because underneath it is just like this very innocent and soft person, but they they really portray the the strength on the outside so that they don't end up feeling controlled, and they have to be able to take that barrier down in order to truly find connection in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

So, okay, so I don't want to make this about seven, but the just this this product because I'm sure that though you can apply this to all the numbers, but it sounds like eight, for example, I think this goes back to like the motivation, just being understanding. You were saying that they kind of run away from emotion because they don't want to feel weak, whereas a seven may run away from it because they don't want to be in pain or it's too uncomfortable. And so just understanding that again, people's actions might have very different motivations, but I just find that so fascinating and like could be life-changing for a lot of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah, because sevens, it's it's like that they don't want to be trapped, right? Even even a lot of sevens, I I resonate strongly with seven, even though I know I'm a type three. If I hear the word like trapped, it gives me like serious anxiety. Um, and and for eights, it's more about uh becoming a fortress, so that that nobody can get in.

unknown 33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

So um, and then finally, nines, they're the peacemaker, the mediator. They are motivated by the need to be at peace internally and externally. So the way that they do that is they stamp down their own desires and their own, they kind of fall asleep to themselves, and they also kind of go with the flow externally, so that they don't have to feel that sense of discord that could come when their internal desires aren't aligned with what's external. So their strength is really that they bring unity, they bring unity, meaning they uh can kind of be at harmony with a lot of people. They they help people to feel really comfortable. Their weakness is that they have a really hard time speaking up for themselves. And once they do, once they become more aware and start talk like asserting themselves, people that they're in relationships with often have a really hard time because they're like, You're not who I marry. Why are you suddenly asserting yourself? Um and it's a huge point of growth for nines, but it's hard for other people because they're not used to that.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

So fascinating. Um, I guess that goes back to that some type of quote. It's like it's not the person that you're gonna be with for the rest of your life, or like in that certain moment, it's like who you could grow with. Um, because I'm sure we can all like in within each of these numbers and just as human beings are going are going to grow and shift. Um, but that's really interesting about nine specifically. Um, because that would kind of be like, wait a minute, who are you? Who are you now? Yeah. Yeah. Um okay, so okay, so this is this is a really good question that I I could kind of relate to when when she shared it. Um, and you probably will be able to speak a little bit firsthand because she is a three. Um, the question says, this might sound crazy, um, but what do you do when things are just good? Like there's no conflict. Um, she kind of went on to say, like, she's a three, so she feels like she's always working towards something, and this relationship is in like such a good place that she doesn't feel like there's anything to work toward. So it's like, am I am I um something or improving something, getting feedback on how I'm doing? And then I get really antsy. It's so weird in this relationship not to feel like we're working on something, it makes me uneasy sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Yeah, that is hard. Also, I don't know if that necessarily I think it could have something to do with the enneegram, right? The three has that drive that that need to always be improving and moving forward. But it is not healthy to always need some zest or passion or spark or conflict to feel good about your relationship. It is okay for it to be boring sometimes because as humans, we're not intended to have that constant, like the amount of stress that that causes on a person and your like literally your cortisol levels is not healthy. So I totally get what this person is saying, and I also think that we need to change our perspective of what it means to improve, what it means to be successful. I think a lot of threes tend to think like, oh, I have to have this goal, but what if the goal is looking inward? What if the goal is feeling your real feelings in the moment? What if the goal is finding more connection? Um, that you're never gonna reach the end of. So change the goal, shift that a little bit, and I think that's where you can find a little bit more health. And also, if the relationship just maybe that's something where you're not allowing yourself to feel your real feelings, maybe your relationship isn't what you actually want or need out of life, that's a different conversation.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Are there certain types of numbers that are more compatible than others?

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah. I get asked this all the time. And actually, unfortunately, somebody recently took some info that I shared with them and manipulated it to show a level of compatibility, but that's not the case. There is no Enneagram type pairing that is more compatible than another type pairing. I really like there are certain type pairings that sometimes work together better. Sometimes if you have more in common with someone, it works better. Sometimes if you have more in common with someone, it it's worse. So it has nothing to do with that. What you need is two people who are willing to do the work, so do the inner work is what I'm talking about, willing to show up for one another, to be kind to one another. Okay, that's huge. A lot of people kind of make this assumption that if they if their relationship is really hard and full of conflicts, that they're building a really good relationship, but that's not that's not the case. Like, no, it's like be kind to one another, um show up and do the work, and then have an open-handed approach. You alluded to this earlier as well, where we go into relationships sometimes and we're not okay with that person growing and changing, but like we should want to grow and change, both together and apart. Um, and loving one another for the full aspect or full spectrum of humanity of that person, that's important. And so I don't really believe that there are types that are most compatible. There are types that are more common, but there aren't types that are most compatible. It's it's really who you choose.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

How could a romantic relationship between two sixes work? But I think just kind of for listeners in general, what thoughts are should we be aware of when we're the same number as our partner? Any any additional things we need to be aware of?

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Yeah, um, I think there is definitely a level of like same strengths, same weaknesses, right? So you might get each other on a really deep level, you might see each other and be like, oh my gosh, I totally get you. Nobody's ever gotten me like this. But what ends up happening is that you can also have the same like challenges where maybe you're really suspicious of other people and you're always looking for a little lack of trust, um, a little inkling that you can't rely on someone. And then your partner gives that to you in a really small way, and then you both start compounding on. Oh, I can't trust this person, I can't trust this person. So going back and forth with that. Um, so that's something that can happen with two sixes, but in any same type pairing, um you have to really be able to face your shadow side because you're gonna see it in your partner more than you see it in yourself.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

It's physical, emotional, intimacy, um, and maybe how like what to be aware of with other people and even just maybe in ourselves, like when we don't feel connected in some way.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

So first I'll I'll I'll mention how I got to those conclusions. Basically, I did some reading around um intimacy, like what I could find on the internet. There wasn't a ton, intimacy with each Enneagram type. And then I posted a survey online um and basically asking about like what does intimacy mean to you? What does physical intimacy mean to you? What is emotional intimacy? Like, what do you need? What does your partner need, etc.? And I posted it on Instagram, I got 600, 700 responses. So a pretty good sample size, right? Um, I'm in grad school, so I'm always thinking about that sample size and that type of thing. There, there's obviously a bent to it where it's like probably more women than men responded, things like that. But anyway. Um basically the overarching thing that people said was one communication is really important. Um, it is also really important for every type to feel really safe. So whether that's safe with communication or to feel safe with emotional intimacy before they really go into the physical aspects. Um types, specifically threes, sevens, and eights, had a little bit of an easier time connecting physically before they could find the connection emotionally. Um, but other types, like twos, fours, and nines, the emotional aspect was so all-encompassing that it was like that had to be really, really solid first. So those are kind of some of the differences. Um let's see, ones, fives, and sixes are the other ones. They they had their own like different things to share, but with all of them, the communication was really, really important. Um I think that goes with all of this stuff, like right, like understanding the motivation, understanding because those really intimate parts of ourselves and um vulnerable parts of ourselves, yeah, really come out clearly with our significant other.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

As a nine, so we just a reminder, peacemaker, um, that step was telling us about as a nine with an anxious attachment style. How do I reframe the need for validation?

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Look, I think we all need to build the skill of validating ourselves. I think there are a lot of us. I mentioned I grew up in the Bible belt and I'm a woman, which means. There are a lot of ways that I was basically raised to believe that I'm not allowed to do that for myself, that it's not okay to think highly of myself. Um, and those are really difficult kind of concepts to unravel, but we have to do it. We have I just posted on Instagram yesterday about um self-friendship, this concept of like becoming a good friend to yourself. And so I think it's so important because we have we can't get that validation from other people. Um and I'm a three, so like I totally get it. Where it's like I really want to feel validated. And my husband and I early on in our relationship had this conversation where he was like, I was like, come on, like affirm me or whatever. And he was like, I'm literally not going to because you want me to. Not because I don't think highly of you, but because you are asking me to. So reframing that I think is is really important. Um, and giving it to yourself. What I will say is I've talked a lot today about shadows and looking at those shadow sides, but what you have to keep in mind when you're doing that is to have a level of acceptance, a level of understanding, a level of non-judgment toward yourself when you observe those things, because you have to be able to understand them to grow. And you have to also be able to understand that those darkest things about you don't make you a horrible person. It like you have to be able to observe them and understand them, and then that's how you can grow from it. Um, and so we do have to have that balance, right? But I think that that self-affirmation and self-validation and being a good friend to ourselves is so much more about um it's like not ignoring that the negative stuff is there, but having a level of self-acceptance of the full spectrum of who we are. I just wanted to reiterate don't I always say don't hire and fire based on Enneagram type. Same for your relationships. Don't depend on an Enneagram type to tell you who you should date or who you should break up with. Sometimes, maybe if you're doing that, there's something inside that's telling you something different. So tune in to what's going on inside about that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Okay, so I have a couple of rapid fire questions as a business owner yourself. Um, what is what is a book that you have found really helpful, personal development, business marketing, um, to help you with where you're at right now in your business?

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Um, I think Dare to Lead by Brene Brown has been one of my favorites because yeah, I mean it's just like it's so encouraging. And I'm also reading Playing Big by Tara Moore right now. Moore? Yeah. Have you read that?

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Okay, I have read it, um, but it has been a long time, and I just remember it being so good. I say that about every book. It was so good. Um, but how are you, how are you liking it?

SPEAKER_01 47:31

I really like it. I really like the way that um yeah, just her approach to it, her approach to the inner critic, the inner mentor, um, her approach to spirituality throughout it is just like really, really good.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

So yes, I remember there was like some visualization parts that were yeah we're good too. So okay. I love that kind of stuff. Oh, me too. We got a lot of people who here who do, but got a lot of big Brene Brown fans too. So if they haven't already read that one, they're gonna have to get that one. Okay, I I already know the answer, but for anybody who doesn't, I think I know the answer. What is your favorite social media platform and why?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Oh my gosh. Definitely Instagram. And I I like it because you're able to have, you know, on each post, people can talk to each other and like have build community that way. And you're able to have like through direct messages, um to be able to like build actual genuine connections with people and like really meet people, really get to know people. I love that about it. I can't respond to every single DM anymore. I try my best, but um, yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

I'm with you. Um what advice would you have for somebody who's maybe just getting going or newer to you know being an entrepreneur, having their own business?

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Yeah, um, I would say don't lose sight of the goal. So different things will come along and you might have to pivot, but like and so remain open-handed and be able to pivot. But also I would say it's really important just to like keep your goal in mind. Like, why are you doing this? Keep that in mind so that when things get really hard, which they will, you can go return back to that and tune into it to kind of motivate you to keep going. Where what's next?

SPEAKER_00 49:36

What's next?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Yeah, so I am graduating with my master's in organizational communication um this year. I have finished all my coursework. I just am working on my capstone project. And so what's next is really um ramping up that aspect of my business um and of my career. I got into the Enagram and into my master's because I love talking with teens about how they can improve their communication using the Enneagram. So my master's, I'm I'm gonna be finishing up here soon. And then I'm really ramping up that aspect of my business and because I just love like I love the aha moments when people have that people have, you know, now it's all on Zoom, right? When it's like, oh, that's why I do what I do. But what I really love, and I don't get to always be there for this aspect, but two weeks later, when they're like, oh my gosh, it has transformed our team. That's I I love getting that report back.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Oh my God, that is amazing. Um, and you know it's so interesting, and I I love what you're doing because how many times, I mean, how many people are out there, and I have felt this way, where it's like you have the the whole like quit the nine to five movement, right? And like I hating going to work. And like, how much of an impact is the work that you're doing now, potentially helping these companies like retain top talent and like really thriving, exciting communities because they're able to better tap into some of what we've talked about and have better relationships and understand their team, so they don't want to leave.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

So true. And and right now, with um with everybody working from home or most people working from home, um, actually like employee engagement can really suffer when people work from home. And so there are actually a couple of interesting studies that suggest that. And so with working with the integram and offering these different employee engagement programs, you can actually reconnect people and help them to have better identification with the organization so that they can be engaged and they won't turn over. So um it's it's all I and it seems like I think for a lot of um organizations right now, it seems like a big investment up front, but it is an investment in their people, which is their biggest asset. So my Instagram handle is nine typesco all spelled out. Um, and you can get the book in my bio or on Amazon if you search my name, Stephanie Baron Hall, it should pop up. And you can also find me on my new podcast, Ask an Enneagram Coach. So that basically I kind of do what we did today, where I just answer all the questions um about the Enneagram because it is so complex and I want people to understand it better. And then I really like this book because I want people to be able to improve their relationships in a way that is really manageable, and often that starts within. And I think that the way that the book is laid out and the way that it's written, I think helps guide you through that process. Um, and it's not just good for romantic relationships, I think it's great for um roommates or coworkers, or I had a friend who's a podcast host, and she and her co-hosts are going through it together, and um it's just great. So all of us who have podcasts, you know, are like, oh yes, that's amazing. So I think it's I think it's really gonna be beneficial for people. And um, you know, you can always look up your new relationship or your old relationship or um everything.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

So I was gonna I was gonna put plug that in at the end. It's like it's not just for like relate married or people in a relationship, it's like yeah, I've gone back and like, hmm. Um and even like you're said, just it's like a it's it's a great um it's a great resource reference as well to pull off the shelf. So the Enneagram in Love, a roadmap for building and strengthening romantic relationships by step. And it's on Anna, um, I was gonna say it's on the Enneagram, it's on Amazon. So definitely check that out. Your podcast sounds awesome. And I appreciate you so much. I know this went over a little longer than I was I was expecting, but this is really good and fun, and I think our listeners will love it too. So thanks, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Thanks for having me. It was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

All right, I'll see you soon. See you on Instagram. Yeah. Such a good episode, right? I'm so glad that you were here today for this one. It was kind of fun too for me to not only get to hear Stephanie's take again because this interview happened, you know, last year. I just kind of remember, gosh, that was such a good interview, but it was really fun to re-listen and edit and get to re-listen again and again, um, getting ready to put this together for you. So I love that. And then just also, it was kind of entertaining and uh interesting just to even you know hear myself a year ago and where I was on that journey. So um, I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. I always appreciate any feedback, reviews that you are willing to leave. So if you enjoyed this one, let me know. Let Apple iTunes know that you did. It really does help. I've gotten, I've heard from some of you already, and I appreciate that so much. So if you have just a moment today to leave a review, leave a brief comment about what you're loving about the podcast or what you loved about this episode specifically, I would appreciate it so much. Um, you will get your typing guide if you want to send me an email at hello at Sara Lynco.com with um just letting me know that you left a review and I'll get that over to you right away as a thank you gift. And then as always, let Stephanie know what you loved about this episode, appreciated, took away from anything that she shared. She shared her Instagram. So definitely connect with her and let her know. I know it means the world to the guest to hear from you. So with that, have a great rest of your week, and I will see you back here next week for an Enneagram classroom episode.