SPEAKER_02 0:00

Mackenzie Fleming is our special guest expert today. And she is coming to us as a conversion copywriter and brand storyteller for female coaches specifically, who helps them not just sell a few offers, but really build, she says, build an empire, really build their business. And she's been trusted by companies like Capital One, Yahoo Finance, Creator and Cultivator, Teachable and Co-schedule. And she has an interesting story because she didn't just start out thinking, oh my gosh, my passion and my purpose is to be a copywriter for coaches. She started at a regular nine to five job at Capital One and then moved into freelancing for business tech companies. And then after a while, finally found her way to doing what she's doing now. But there was definitely a lot of zigzagging and ups and downs and questioning and doubt, um, self-doubt and doubt of her family members just wanting the best for her, but questioning her decision to leave that very stable, safe, and secure job. So she talks a little bit about that story and um, which is I think a lot of us can kind of relate to when we take that step to go out on our own. And Mackenzie is also joining us today as a type seven. And uh she's I we were kind of joking at the beginning. I said, I've talked about myself being a type seven, but I have yet to have a type seven guest on the podcast. So she is the first one. Um, and she was a lot of fun, but we also talked a little bit about the stereotypes that sevens get by being fun, by having a lot of energy. And she had some questions if that was really her dominant type because she likes to sleep a lot, because she's not always um extroverted and has a lot of energy. And that is one of the biggest misconceptions, one of the biggest stereotypes. We all we do it to all the types, all the personalities have specific stereotypes that just not like type ones, they're not all clean freaks. Type fives aren't all very introverted, you know. There's there's specific um characteristics that we have kind of labeled these types as, and it's just not always true. And one of them for the type seven is that you're extroverted, the life of the party, and that's just not always the case. And in fact, earlier this week, I had shared a post about being happy. Um, and as a type seven myself, that is one of the things it's like, oh, I'm looking for happiness, but just because that's the thing that we are looking for, that happiness, satisfaction, fulfillment, um, doesn't necessarily mean that we're always happy. And that is part of the problem, is because we have so much pressure of being happy and positive that it actually does the opposite. So um, I'll have to maybe link that up in here because I did get some um interesting feedback on that. But Mackenzie shares her experience as a type seven and and just kind of what resonates with her and some of the things that that doesn't. So, you know, looking in, if you are a type seven, um, you're gonna appreciate this one, probably feel seen, validated. Um, as a reminder, our type sevens are on this quest to have all the experiences, to feel fulfill, fulfilled, to be happy, to be satisfied. And the thing that they're running away from is that hard feelings, lack of options, feeling trapped in some way. And if you are not a seven, but you know somebody in your life that is a seven, or maybe can relate to some of the energy that McKenzie's putting out, you know, sevens often invigorate others. And others say that they get, you know, stimulated and excited by the enthusiasm that our type sevens can exude. Um, others feel really engaged and they feel they're drawn to them, they're magnetic, they're drawn to their optimism and their love for life. On the flip side, though, that same energy sometimes can create frustration because sometimes we'll have a hard time committing and following through. And sometimes it can be kind of chaotic and you can get frustrated by the restlessness of that seven. So, regardless if you identify as a type seven or not, you are still going to get a lot from what McKinsey shares about her experience. And then also, she has some really great um tangible tips for how to think about writing for sales and um copywriting versus content creation and just things to write, think about as we're creating content for our businesses that you're going to also get so much out of. So, without further ado, enjoy this interview with McKenzie. Welcome to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your gifts, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. Each week you'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others, like your future clients, and help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gifts and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. Welcome back to another episode of the Enneagram MBA podcast. And today I have an extra special place in my heart for this guest because she is a fellow seven. Um, we are gonna be hearing from Mackenzie Fleming today, who is a copywriter specifically for female coaches. So we're gonna get into a little bit about what exactly copywriting is, how that's different from content writing, and get some tips from her on how to sell with our words. But we're also going to hear from her what life is like from her experience as a type seven. So welcome to the show, McKenzie.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited. I'm the first seven, I feel famous. So it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

It is. I was just on, we were talking, McKenzie and I were talking. I was like, oh, I like to keep these around, you know, less than an hour. Sometimes we go over. And I was just on a panel a couple of weeks ago with the type seven, and we went like way over. And so I'm glad she said I got a heart cut off. So that'll that'll help. Um, okay. So first of all, I always like to have, I always like to ask, like, what is it about your type seven that really resonates? Or like what was the thing where you're like learning about the Enneagram and you're like, oh my God, I feel like this is me.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

I think the thing that, well, first what stood out to me is I'm like, this isn't me, because it was like full of energy. And I I definitely can be full of energy, but I sleep a lot. So I don't know if it means like physical energy, but another thing was just um, I think it was like impulsiveness and being spontaneous. I'm not, I would consider myself an introvert, but unless I'm online, it's so funny. People, when I tell them I'm an introvert, they're like, no, you're not. And I'm like, I really am. I swear, in real life, I am.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Yeah. And um, can I just tell you, like, that is one of the most common misconceptions with sevens is that we have to like carry this, um, like you were saying, like big energy, like extrovert, life of the party. And that's maybe like the stereotype, which are stereotypes for all of them. Um, but when you actually talk to other people who identify with the type seven, it's like you find out how many people actually are more introverted and like get really tired. Um, because being happy and positive all the time can be exhausting. So I feel that. Um, you had mentioned like impulsive and sometimes scattered can be kind of the downside to that energy. I can tell you so many things about my own self, how that showed up. But like, where are some areas throughout your life? And I guess specifically when it comes to work, like, do you have to, do you still struggle with that? Is that something you've had to work through? How does that show up?

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah, I I'm definitely like an impulsive spender, whether that's in my personal life or just like I get really excited about, like, oh my God, I want to work on this project with someone and I know nothing about them, but like, let's do it. Like, click, you know, confirm payment. Um, but the other thing that I was just looking at my notes because I'm a nerd and I had to have my notes um that they're constantly like seeking new experiences and on the go. And I'm like, that's me. I cannot, I also can't like stay doing one thing for too long. I love the projects that I work on, but I'm always like not necessarily like shiny objects, but I just get so excited about what is possible that I want to do it all at once.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yes. Oh my God, Rekinzie, that is like the like the theme of a type seven. Um, it is there's so many ideas. So, so um with what you're doing now, like how how do you, because this is like a struggle for seven, and I think this is a struggle for just human beings in general, where we get so many ideas because at this point, like there's so many ideas being suggested to us online and emails and um blogs and podcasts. And it's like, oh my gosh, you could be a coach, you could be a consultant, you could start an Amazon product, or you could um use email marketing, you could use social media marketing. So there's like so many ideas of how to do things. How do you how do you nail down an idea? Like, how do you know, okay, this is the idea I'm gonna go with? How do you how do you balance or juggle all of those? Um talk to me a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Well, I think, and I think this is the reason that I I to for myself don't consider it as much shiny object syndrome because first of all, I don't want it to be that. So I'm saying it's not that. And also because I feel like when what gets me excited is not necessarily that thing, but it's like the ideas that it gives me. And I'm like, oh my God, like I have all this inspiration and all these cool thoughts about what I could do with this, and I don't want to lose those thoughts or that inspiration. So, like, let me start doing it.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yeah. Yeah, I saw this really funny meme, and she is she's not the um, she doesn't talk about the Enneagram, but she talks about like these four different buying personas. I think her name is Rachel Turner. I forget, I forget what who it is, and I apologize um for that. But she has like these four like business personas, and one of them is got an idea, launch it on Friday. And is that is that kind of you? It's like, oh my god, I got this idea, and I'm gonna, I just gotta do it.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yes, it's so funny you said that too, because like last night it was late at night too. I was like just scrolling Instagram, like kind of been on the hunt for a new, like an additional VA for my team. And then I see someone that I'm interested in, I go to book a call and I'm like, oh man, I have to wait like 24 hours. It's like, of course you do. Like, who is just no? But I get so excited, I like want it to happen right that second.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Let's do this. Yeah. And and that is um, that was for me like one of the big eye-openers that I do, and that that's a thing. So for threes, sevens, and eights specifically, they're in this group called the assertive or sometimes it's the aggressive group. And they are very forward thinking, like future-oriented, constantly thinking what's next. And so for me, I was like, oh my God, that's a thing. And then the thought that like there's people out there that don't do that, I'm like, oh okay. So that might be that might be why I might be having some problems with others.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

It's so funny because I feel like I've read about the like type sevens several times. I had a friend who, or I have a friend who is a business coach and also like knows a lot about the Enneagram. So she was asking me what type I am, and I'm like, I don't know. And she's like, you have to take the test. I have to know. I'm gonna write it down on a slip of paper, what I think you are, and I'm gonna hold it next to the clock and take a picture so you know I wasn't cheating. And of course she was right, and she had written down seven. But when I was going in and reading it all of the times I have, I've been like, isn't this everyone? And then I'm like, no, it's just because I resonate with it so hard.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yes. I know that's the thing. That's like the like one of like the eye-opening pieces of self-awareness, whatever tool it is, but definitely with the Enneagram, you're like, oh my God, like, yeah, not everybody sees the world like this. I'm shocked. I'm like, what? Um, so one of the other things that type sevens tend have a tendency, not always, especially in that average level or stereotypical level of health, is that we are in this um another group that tends to look at like the bright side of things. So we're in this positive outlook group with our twos and our type nines when it comes to how we handle conflict and challenges and and things that inevitably come up in life that we just don't love. And for sevens, a lot of times the tendency is to put on rose colored glasses and think there's a problem, but I'm fine. I'm fine, it's fine, it'll all be fine. Find the silver lining. So, is does that ring true for you? How do you tend to handle conflict and challenges that come up?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

I think that does. And I've not really thought about that so much, but my boyfriend says that too. Like anytime I'm like, if I'm complaining about a situation and he's like, you can just be mad. Like, you don't have to like make excuses for that person. And I'm like, well, you know, maybe they blah blah blah. Like, they don't know. It's fine, we're all fine. Um, yeah, so I definitely can relate to that and just in general, I feel like not necessarily being like overly optimistic, but just I I want, yeah, to see the best in people. I want them to, I don't want to like judge them too quickly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Yeah, yeah. I get that. I get that. Um, one of the other like the core kind of driver motive for type sevens is this they're kind of running towards this need to feel satisfied in life and to be happy. And then the thing that they're running away from is those uncomfortable feelings and not being satisfied, um, being trapped, limited in some some way. Um, I know that throughout your um career, you have, like everybody, have made some changes over time. Have you seen that show up in the reasoning behind some of those changes and pivots throughout your career? Or what, like, how do you see that kind of that drive for satisfaction um show up for you, specifically with the work that you're doing and pursuing?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yeah, it's funny that you ask that because I feel like I was like, as you're saying that, I'm like, oh my God, I was just talking with my therapist about this. And like in my personal life, and maybe in the bit my business in some aspects, yes, but I think the main like driving force behind because I started at Capital One and corporate working as a copywriter and then freelancing and for all different like business to business technology. So like bopping around kind of niches, but I don't think it was like trying to, I don't know. I think it was just trying to find like try everything out and see what worked for me because I was fresh out of school when I went to Capital One. Like I've never like written for all these different types of brands. I wanted to find what felt like a really like good, like homey fit instead of just, oh, I'm gonna do business to business technology because there are a lot of jobs in it and like it's a good way to you know get paid. Um, but I definitely feel like I found that working with like female service providers and coaches.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Yeah. And so you feel what what I find so interesting, again, just like the more that you learn about yourself, because it it sounds like, oh my God, this was like fulfilling. Like I you could have, you were good, it sounds like at what you did and what I read about on your website. And we'll get into kind of that transition in a minute. Um, so and so you could have done that. Like that might have been like the safe thing to do, the safe route, but it's like you took a chance because I don't know, and I I'll I'll actually let you speak for yourself. Like what what what caused you to take that chance on yourself?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Yeah, well, I could have definitely stuck with B2B Tech. It was going really well. I had a lot of consistent clients, I was making good money, and something just fell off. And I remember talking to um a social media strategist a haircut. I'm like, I'm just not gonna have a niche, I'm just gonna like blah, blah, blah. So I did an intensive with like a social media strategist, and she's like, let's talk about your ideal client, like blah, blah, blah. Like, who is it gonna be? And I'm like, I don't know, it's just gonna be everybody. And she's like, no. Um, and she's like, Well, who do you like working with? And then I thought about it, and even while I was in B2B tech, I kept attracting coaches and speakers and like personal brands. And those were all the people that when I went down and like wrote out all the people that I'd worked with and started the ones I liked, they were all they all had that in common. And I'm like, oh, like it wasn't my brand at all at the time, but I was still kept attracting them. So I kind of took that as a sign because that was also like those were the people that I just really liked working with. So it kind of led to it naturally.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah. And so I want to talk about that a little bit. Um, what you're doing now is you said like you're working with coaches, speakers, and building their brand. And I think sometimes when we think of that, um, at least for me, I'll just again speak for myself. I a lot of times I'm thinking like, oh, your visual brand, like your colors and like your logo and you know, the type of font that you have. But I know that you do so much more than that. And also it's visuals and voice. So can you just talk a little more about like, what is that? What does like a brand voice mean and why is it so important?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah. So your brand voice is the personality that runs through your communications and your messaging. And you have one whether you realize it and focus on it or not. And it sometimes it's not consistent. It should be consistent ideally, like sometimes it's not where it should be, but it's there. Um, and I always use this example that like if you're scrolling through Instagram and like you posted a hot selfie, you're looking good, you're on the like, I don't know. Everyone's scrolling, they're stopping, they're looking, the visuals did what they were supposed to do, but nobody is looking at this picture without a caption thinking, oh my God, like I can tell that she wants me to go to the link in her bio and sign up for this masterclass. Like that's where your words come in. And yes, it can be sign up for masterclass, but the way your personality comes through in your copy and your messaging is going to be the type of people that you attract and the type of people that want to work with you that are like jumping over other people, like scrambling to work with you, willing to pay your prices versus like price hagglers and just people who are not the right fit for you.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Yeah. And I just just because this is um audio and obviously we can't show listeners um your like brand vibe and voice, like how would you describe yours? Because I think yours is like really fun, very eye-catching, like kind of it definitely stands out. So, like, how do you describe the brand of McKenzie?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah, I like that question because I I have my brand messaging Bible is what I call it. Um, like your brand voice guidelines, your content style guide is kind of a combination. Um, and I have like my whole brand voice mapped out and confident, um, fun, witty. What was the other one? I'm not sure, maybe passionate or something, but um yeah, definitely bolder on the bolder side.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Bold, yeah. I definitely, I definitely get that from just like the again, like the visual parts, and then also like reading your captions, like how you say things and like on your blog, and it all kind of has that vibe. So what's what's the downside of because I'll be honest, like even for me, like I'm still in the so these next questions are maybe like self-serving, but um what it like how do you get there? And then what's the downside if you don't get there? Because I know that that like you were just talking about those words that you came up with and kind of like your brand Bible, like that's not something uh I don't think that just happens when you sit down for an hour. It's like a lot of work that goes into that, like a lot of reflection, a lot of like studying again, like you going back to your clients and being like, who do I like to work with? And so some people might think, like, well, it's I don't know, is it like worth all the work to do that? And like, what if I don't get it right? But what happens if we don't start to nail down that brand voice?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Yeah, I like that question too, because there are not a ton of resources out there, like there are plenty of things talking about you need a brand voice, and here's why, and here's what happens if you don't, but there's not a ton that are like, okay, here's how you sit down and actually put words to your voice and create that brand messaging Bible and make it, you know, it's a little simplified. But I would say the downfall to not having your brand voice, aside from just attracting the wrong type. Of people that you're I mean, we all I mean, I hope started our businesses because one of the reasons we wanted to enjoy what we were doing, and if you're attracting the wrong people who are making your life stressful, who are just not, you know, meant to be your client type, like not your ideal client. That all comes back to brand voice. Your brand voice is also how people create that, like, oh shit, that's Nike, or like something like that recognizable like brand authority and vibe that you just know right away. Um, so it's also, I mean, your words are how you communicate with people, it's how you connect, it's how you express emotion and evoke emotion, and that all comes back to your voice as well. So if you want to actually truly connect with your people and you want to do it as yourself and your brand and what you want to embody, then that comes back to your voice.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Yeah. So it sounds like one of the downsides is like you could, I don't want to say, like, be miserable, but not be as satisfied and happy with the people that you're working with because it's like you're talking to everybody, like you were saying before. Because yours is like kind of saucy. Like there's some like, you know, um, some, like you said, like bold. And for some people that may not work, but for like the people that it does, it's like I get the sense that people are gonna be like, oh my God, Mackenzie is like my person. I feel that so much. Even if they don't have that boldness, it's like, it's like, oh, I'm digging this energy and like you're attracting that, even if maybe that's not the voice that they want. Um, which I had a question about, because you know, it's it is very uh seven to have that kind of like extroverted on the outside, um, especially online energy and to be bold and to be colorful and fun. What about somebody who maybe feels not not so bold and not so fun, or like once a more like calm, mellow? Like, can you still stand out in that way? Does that question make sense?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Yes, a hundred percent. And I when you were talking before about like a minute ago about just how when you're bold and you attract people, I was like thinking about this question where you don't have to be like throwing around the F-word all the time and cracking inappropriate jokes or like anything. You don't have to be as like, yeah, bold as maybe my brand is, but you can still get those people who are reading your copy and they're like, she makes me feel really good. She makes me feel like I'm in a safe space, like I'm seen, like I'm heard, like I'm inspired to, you know, act. Um, it's all about finding, I guess, who exactly you want to be. And that's what a lot of brand voice is, like you said, it's like being genuine and authentic. And that's what I kind of base my brand around is just being exactly who I am and you know, amplifying that, which is where you know, brand voice kind of starts is finding who are you, who are your people, what do they need from you, what do you want to give them, kind of mushing it together, and then finding those things about you that are weird and quirky and whatever they may be that you're like, people don't like that, like nobody can relate to this. Yes, they can. And it's like turning up the notch on those things, amplifying those parts of your personality is gonna start bringing in the people that are like, I said, like excited to work with you that are recognizing your name and saving your posts and screenshotting them and all that good shit.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah. And you know, this just reminded me about a conversation I had with um a friend or a business friend who was talking about a course she just invested in, and she was deciding between two courses, kind of the same courses, um, around building a course. And um, one of the um course providers, like very solid in their knowledge, like nothing wrong. It's just their promise and like their message and their voice, I guess, was around like, let's blow you up, like become a millionaire, grow your team. And like all of her photos were in like power suits and like in this like gorgeous office. And then the other person was like at home with her kids, talking about like having a hands-off business, having like three employees that were VAs and just like never having an office. And she said she ended up going with the second one because like that was more reflective of like what she wanted her life to be. Like she wanted to be successful, but she didn't really want to be like, oh, I'm a millionaire kind of vibe. Not that she would turn down a million dollars, but and I just feel like as you're talking about that and attracting the right people, or just you know, that that was like a really great example for me, anyway, just to kind of be like, Oh, that's so interesting that you ended up going with the one not promising to be a millionaire, but it's like have a small team and be successful.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, especially with coaches and consultants and this industry, like it's such a personal connection that you're making as a personal brand with your clients, whether it's like one-on-one coaching or group, or of course, is like these people want to know that they can feel safe and trusted with you. So, especially with you know, my ideal audience, coaches and consultants, service providers, personal brands. Um, this I feel like is so central to getting to where you want to be. Like you said, finding two options, and then which one do I relate to that I feel like comfortable with, that I feel good, like we're in the same like headspace kind of thing. And then moving forward with that.

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Um, exactly. I love, I love that. And that is just something to think about and not feeling like, oh, everybody else is saying, making these promises, like maybe I should too. Um, one of the things that I love that you shared that kind of is like, I guess it's a trend right now. I don't know, is like this um like call for authenticity and vulnerability. And you had said something about, I think that was like, you don't have to use vulnerability, you don't have to be a vulnerability pimp. I was like, oh my god, I love that. So can you talk a little bit about like what exactly that is and like what you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Yeah, and it's so funny because I I don't even know like when I came up with that term, but I it's an example of I'm like, people aren't gonna get this. Like, are they gonna get what I'm referring to? Because I wrote um the initial like original email that I had used that in at the very beginning of my brand for coaches and stuff. And I'm like, people aren't gonna get it, I shouldn't send this. And then I did, and everyone's like, oh my god. And that's just an example, but um, vulnerability pimps to me, to me, it is a trend. Be authentic, be vulnerable, says the people who are like putting on a show. But I mean, at the end of the day, like I was saying, we're in this entrepreneurial world, one of the reasons because we want to enjoy ourselves, and you're probably not enjoying yourself if you have to be putting on some sort of mask, especially when you're showing up on video and on coaching calls and all these things. Like, don't you want to just be your genuine ass self? And vulnerability pimps are that kind of thing where it's like vulnerability alert, siren emoji, which I think I like used jokingly once, but um, it's just kind of where they're turning up the notch on it to the point where it's inauthentic, and it's like you're just trying to get my attention and then blow up a story like that. I don't know, it just doesn't feel super good to me. Um, so I called it out.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

I I love that, I love that. And again, I think it's just like going back to what what you're saying about like, I think you had asked the question, like gut check before you share anything, like, why are you sharing it? Right. And I I liked that because there is there is a part, there is a benefit to not being so like, oh, like three things, five takeaways, and like to weave in your story, because at the end of the day, we can Google that those type of things. So I I do love sharing your story. It's just yeah, like how vulnerable. Um, and that that question I thought was so good. Um, so speaking of kind of vulnerability and like um sharing things, one thing that I know that I personally have struggled with, and then this is like one of the biggest topics that gets brought up, and people talk about is like their pricing and like how much they're worth and what their services are worth. And you shared a story on your website about um transitioning from corporate to upwork and this conversation you had with your mom about charging $35 and $30. And I'll I'll let you share it maybe. And then I would love for you maybe just to finish that really quickly um in your own words. And then, like, how did you how did you get like what was the mindset shifts and that type of work that you had to do internally to get to where you're charging five thousand dollars for a week?

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Right, yeah. Um, so the story is that when I was at Cap One and I was, you know, making good money and whatever, but I wanted to fill my time more because I'm unerred, I am obsessed with what I do. I would go home every day and be like, I wish I could freelance. And then I came across upwork and I was like, okay, like I had just discovered it when I went home for the holidays, and I'm like, okay, like what should I put my rate at? And my mom's like, well, like probably take into consideration that you know they're not paying for your health, like it's not a steady job, like boost that price a little more than what you're being paid at Capital One. Like, do like $30. And I'm like, $30, who's gonna pay $30? And I was like, okay, I'll do $28. Like that $2 makes a difference. But on Upwork TBH, like if you've ever seen Upwork, that makes a difference. And I don't necessarily blame myself for being like scared to charge what I'm worth because people are like, you can't write a whole website for $5. Um, no thanks. I'll find someone who can. Um, but now I guess the mindset shift was definitely that I kind of had to recognize. And this is like something I feel like I've recently started to acknowledge more in general, is just that things don't have to be the way people say they're supposed to be. Like I would tell my mom I'm charging like $5K for my VIP week now, and she'd be like, what? Like people are gonna pay that. And I'm like, yeah. And I think it's just this idea that was in my head before of like, that's not the way it's supposed to be. You're supposed to charge X amount of dollars an hour and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, this is my value. I understand that I'm really freaking good at what I do, and I provide results for my clients. So I'm gonna charge accordingly.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

And what were some of the things? And I'm like, I love that you got to that point because I think some of us are like still kind of working through that. So I'd love to hear like, was there was it like a book or a course or a coach or all of it, or like walking in the woods and meditating, or like how like what caused that shift to occur?

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yeah, honestly, it's kind of like, and this is this is like I don't know, have a too deep territory, but I was thinking about like a lot of the things like my parents said growing up, and like this is the way you know a woman is in the family, and you this is the way life is, you go to corporate, you get a corporate job, it's steady, you do not go out on your own, you do not try new things. Like, I think that and finally leaving corporate and taking my business full time was like a light switch for me. Like anything from then on, I started to question well, am I just thinking this because I've been told by my mom all these years that XYZ, or is this like how it actually has to be? Um, and it was funny when I left corporate, my parents were so mad at me, they're not mad at me anymore because now they like see my thriving business and they're like, okay, it's fine. But sometimes you just gotta like take that jump and see what's on the other side. And I could not be more happy that I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Yeah, I know. And it's just like a different, it's like a different time to where it's like, oh my God, like that, we have the internet now, you know, where you know, it didn't. So so many possibilities. Um, while you're here, I wanted to just get clarification and like an understanding for uh for myself and others. Like, well, you had talked about the difference between content writing and copywriting. And there's like, oh, write your be consistent with your content and share, post on social media and write emails. And so I think we're probably doing a lot of content writing. I don't know about copywriting. So could you explain the difference?

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, so your content writing is more those educational value-based pieces. So your blogs, your email newsletters that share a story or a tip. Um what else? Sometimes some posts on social media, and then copywriting is conversion driven. So whether that conversion is someone actually paying you money or it's getting them on your email list, you want them to take an action. There is something that gets that conversion for you. Um, so that's more sales focused and you know, focused on persuasion. So that's things like your sales pages, landing pages, um, launch emails, website copy. So the main thing I like to think of it as is because the difference is not like if you know what it's gonna make or break you, like you can still be writing copy and content and not know the difference. But your content kind of sets up your copy. So your content primes your audience, and then when they get to your copy, they're like ready to buy.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Okay, okay. And then any, and I know like this is what you do for a living and you have tons and tons of content, but just for the purposes of this, is there is there like a tangible tip or thing to think about as we're writing copy versus content? So if we're like, okay, we we have this new service we want to package and like next week we want to start talking about it. Do you have any like a tip or something that we should keep in mind or not do?

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah, I would say the first thing that comes to mind is just to trim that shit. Like, like your blog posts, yes, tell me about the tip. And it's the same thing too. You want to cut the fat, you know, slim it down. People aren't only here for so long, like they're reading and they're leaving. But readability is so key to getting them to the final message that you want, whether that's comment below or buy this. Um, so copy, I say, and this is something that I struggled with at the beginning too, because I have so much to say. And I'll write something and I'll be like, oh, that's so good. I mean, I don't need that sentence, but it's so good. I want to leave it. And now it's just like, no, if it's not 100% necessary, it's gone. We're trying to get our goal, and that is to get the reader from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Okay. So it sounds like the first step is like, what is that goal?

SPEAKER_00 37:37

100%.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

And then go back and look and see like, do these words, does this concept align with that goal? Um, the other thing before we start to wrap up, just like a another tangible question I had that I saw on your website was the About Me page on our website, which I like, why is having one of those important? And what should we keep in mind when we're creating one for ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yeah. So this kind of goes back to me talking about how, as a coach or a personal brand, a consultant, people want to connect with you. They want to know who is going to be, you know, coaching them through life, coaching them through health. Whatever it is that you're doing, it's so personal and intimate. And they want to know that you are someone that either they can get to a point that's, you know, they aspire to or that you've been there. So sharing your story on your about page is so important. I know I struggled when I was writing my about page because I'm like, my story's not interesting. And then I started to write it and I put it in my own brand voice, and suddenly it's a little bit more interesting. So I think absolutely share your story, share your credentials, build trust, show us certificates and testimonials and awards, um, explain your experience. I have 10 years of doing this and getting these results, but then also tie in your story of this is how I got here personally. This is the big takeaway, this is how I lead my life and business, like core values, kind of tying that into your story and sharing that with the world.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Is there anything in those about me pages that you see that tends to maybe be like a common don't do? Like, oh gosh, leave that out.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Well, not something to leave out as much as I just get to about pages where it's just like an essay, where it's chunks of text on text on text. Um, and this is such a simple fix to going through breaking up your paragraphs. I mean, of course, first go through and remove the shit that you don't need. If it doesn't tie back to, you know, the goal of your story, which is to share your values and relate to your audience, then take it out. Um, but breaking up paragraphs, inserting headlines, subheaders, just to break things up for the eye and folding, italicizing, underlying, underlying, underlining to keep the reader's eye moving makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Okay. Okay. And that's an easy one formatting. Right. Like, and not something that I would have thought about. So I love, love, love, love that. Um, last question when it comes to marketing, and this is like this is a big one, but I know that like it like you teach uh coaches, uh speakers how to master their message at the end of the day. And so, like, where should we start with that? I know we you're gonna share some resources that you personally offer, but when it comes to like mastering our message, we're just like kind of posting aimlessly. Maybe we haven't identified the brand voice. What exactly does mastering your message mean? And what's like a great step one for starting that path?

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Step one is to determine your goals, whether you're looking at your like content strategy as a whole. Okay, what do I want to do with my Instagram feed this month or emails? What are we trying to get these people to do, or what are we trying to share and prime them for? You need to have a goal. Um, and then also as a whole, your brand messaging, what is your goal for that? My goal is to help people feel seen and heard and to connect with me and to trust me. All those things that your brand voice does, that's my main goal. So now I need to focus on my brand voice and figure out how are we going to actually like inject our personality to get us where we want to go.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Okay. The goal. And that's like that's such a simple one. And I'm guilty of that too, of just like starting. And I think that's especially true for some of us who are like more action-oriented, like um, not action-oriented, but that's kind of our go-to, like impulsive. It's like, okay, let's just get to work, let's just do it. And we don't always take the time to step back and be like, why are we doing this? What is the goal? So love that, especially for those of us who do who don't always do that. Um, and then I have a couple rapid fire questions before we wrap this up, but just before we get to that, like, what do you have going on right now? What can people how can people learn more from you? Where do you hang out? What's next? How do we learn more about you?

SPEAKER_00 42:15

So I mainly hang out in my Facebook group or Instagram. Instagram is at Mackenzie B. Fleming and can take you to my Facebook group, which is the conversion corner for coaches and consultants, where I have a whole bunch of trainings, a whole bunch of goodies, just all the good shit is in the Facebook group. Um, but I'm also hanging out on Instagram. So I would love if anybody's listening and you want to get my exclusive uh sales page audit kit, just DM me the word Enneagram and I'll send that over to you. Um, so that's Aunt Mackenzie Blooming, but I would love if you also join us in the Facebook group and hop on the lives. They're a lot of fun. I also do hot seat coaching where like this week I'll walk people through how to actually inject personality into a piece of copy that they've brought. So it's a lot of fun. And I share a lot of um, what is it called? Cheesy stock photos in my like trainings. So don't miss it.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Okay, okay. Yeah, if nothing else, join, join for that. And then I know that you mentioned um you were going to be putting together a course coming up. Would you just tell us a little bit about that and when when we can expect to see that?

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Yeah. So, like we were kind of talking about before, I was saying it's so easy to hear brand voice, brand brand voice, brand voice, but and stories, storytelling, your brand story. But it's like, how do you, it's such a hard thing to put words to? Um, so I've got a brand voice and story course that I'm working on that's going to be launching in December that I am crazy excited about. Um, and it's just gonna take you step by step through from determining your brand voice, developing it, creating your brand voice guidelines, writing your brand story. Implementing it like all of the things.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

I love that. And yeah, that's one of those things where it is so intangible sometimes. Like, great idea. Love that. Inject brand voice. Do do a brand voice. But yeah, what exactly does that mean? So stay tuned for that. Okay. So what is what's something that you are currently learning? And it can be business related. It can be literally anything. Like, what are you, what's something new that you're learning?

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Um the first thing that comes to mind is like anything finances. I um am working with a finance coach who's helping me like separate business and personal finances. And that is a roller coaster for me because I see a number and I'm like, no, thank you. Goodbye. So that's something I'm learning how to even deal with, like to acknowledge.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Oh, that's such a good one. And then what about what's something that you're unlearning?

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Well, we were like kind of talking about before that it's just like to kind of just start questioning things. If I've been told this growing up, like, does it have to be that way, or can I make my own opinion and look at it a different way, approach it differently? So kind of unlearning a little bit of everything.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Like just old beliefs, old stories.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

And then um, something else that gets tossed around a lot is this like, oh, like living your best life, your the best version of you, your best life. What does living your best life mean to you? Like, what does that look like for you personally?

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Okay, so I'm in a bathtub filled with champagne, surrounded by my three cats and maybe like a dozen more that I've adopted. Maybe like, I don't know, I love animals. Just give me all the animals. Um, or on a beach, just having and running my business and building it and helping as many people as possible as I can, um, instead of just like one-on-one copywriting, but actually through courses and helping people find that voice and develop their messaging and create content that leads to conversion. So that and as a self-running business where it's like I'm showing up and I'm doing the things, but if I wanted to take a whole day for the beach, it would be fine.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Love the love both those visions. Um, and then lastly, we love to read around here, like we love a good uh book recommendation. And then me personally, like serial reader, like 10 books at one time happening, and like when I actually finish them is like a whole nother story. So I always like to ask, like, what is a book recommendation that you had that's been really helpful in your own personal development journey, self-growth journey, or like a business book that has helped you in some way.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Oh my God. Well, I'm sure you've heard of it. You are a badass, like changed my life. I send it to every female in my life. Like, they'll be like, Hey, how's it going? I'll be like, Great, I just sent you a book. Like, I don't care if we just met, I'm sending you this book. Everybody needs to read it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

That has been one. And then the money one was really good too. Like, I haven't read that yet. I need to check it out. You would, I think you would dig it. Yeah, you would definitely would dig it too. But yeah, a love, love, love. Well, McKenzie, thanks so much again for being here. Would you tell us just one more time where we can find you on Instagram and then any other parting words that we should know about living our own best life, creating a um marketing message, anything else that you want to share to kind of consider this episode complete?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Yeah. So my final parting message and my biggest tip for copywriting and brand messaging and brand voice and everything in general is to just commit. Like, if you're gonna go in and this is gonna be your voice and this is gonna be your message, and this is gonna be your goal, fucking commit because half-assing it and like wishy washing just does not work with this. Um, and then if you want to hang out, come join the Facebook group, which you can find through my Instagram at Mackenzie B Fleming, Fleming with one M.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

So yay. Yay. Well, this was super fun. I love um, I loved like just hearing your experience as a type seven. I think everybody else will as well. And then all that you shared about just thinking about brand messaging and and marketing and writing, um, to just to all to yes, add value, but then also to sell the things that we have that will also be helpful. And right, um, I know we could probably get into that too, you know, all that. But um, I appreciate you so much being here. All that you shared, and um, hopefully we'll see you on Instagram or inside the Facebook group. Yay! Thank you for having me.