SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to another episode of the Enneagram MBA Podcast. And actually, if you're new to the show, welcome as well. Big warm welcome to you too. I'm your host, Sarah Lynn. I am an Enneagram coach, visibility coach that pairs the wisdom of the Enneagram, really learning about your unique personality, your passions, your purpose, your strengths, your goals, and sometimes even those common roadblocks that inevitably come up for us all. Learning about those things so that you can bring your business idea to life, so that you can get it in front of others. So we're really looking at understanding and knowing yourself so that you can get known to the people you're most passionate about serving. Today, my guest is Dr. Rebecca Tennyson. Dr. Rebecca is joining us as a clinical psychologist, as a Enneagram and Enneagram coach, and as an Enneagram type two with a very strong wing one. And she has been studying human behavior for years at this point. And she has been learning about the Enneagram both personally and professionally now for years as well. So this was a treat. All of the interviews are such a treat. This was a treat in a way that we get to dive deep, deep, deep into life as a type two, getting into arrows and wings and centers of intelligence and repressed centers of intelligence. And even if you're not a type two, I want you to hang around because you're going to still learn so much about how she thinks about those other aspects of her type, how she uses them, how she sees them show up in the relationship she has with her husband, her kids, her coworkers at her day job, even as she thinks about, you know, the work and moving things along in her own side business with her with her Enneagram coaching. So all different ways that she is using that self-knowledge, that self-awareness she has about herself, that she's really gained a lot of it from her work with the Enneagram. So that's really fun. We also get into a little bit of couples counseling, couples therapy, really effective communication, and how she uses the Enneagram in that way, and how she uses the Enneagram with a fun project she tried out last year around character development for fictional writers. So that was just a creative way to come in and use the Enneagram to just share her love for the Enneagram with a really in a really specific niche way. So that was fun to hear about. Dr. Rebecca and I also have known each other for a little over a year now. We both went through Enneagram University. That is the program that I got my Enneagram coaching certification from. It's put on by um Christy Rolls, a full and free Enneagram. And at the end of the show, I'm going to tell you a little bit more about Enneagram University for anybody who is interested in potentially getting their own Enneagram coaching certification. So if that's of interest to you, be sure and stick around to the end. But for now, let's get into my interview with Dr. Rebecca Tennyson. Welcome to the Enneagram MBA Podcast, a show for aspiring and growing entrepreneurs and unfulfilled employees who know they are capable of playing bigger. If you are wanting to identify your gifts, find your purpose, do work that matters, and create a ripple effect that goes beyond yourself, you're in the right place. Each week you'll get resources, strategies, and support to help you get to know yourself, to get to know and understand others, like your future clients, and help you get known so that you can reach more people with your gifts and purpose. So grab your notebook or open up your notes app, and I will see you in class. Well, welcome back to another episode here on the Enneagram MBA podcast. Today is going to be extra fun for you and for me because we have not only an Enneagram expert, but we have actually Dr. Rebecca Tennyson. Um, and we're going to get into how she uses the Enneagram in her clinical psychology work, in her therapy work. And I'm really excited because sometimes people um we'll talk about the Enneagram like it's like an astrology kind of thing. So we're we'll add some legitimacy to this even further. And then she also has her own podcast called A Drop in the Bucket. And we're going to hear a little bit about what that's about. And we're going to get to hear on how she helps writers use the Enneagram. So lots of fun topics about the Enneagram. Welcome to the podcast, Rebecca. Thank you, Sarah. Really pleased to be here. Well, we'll start off by saying Rebecca and I both graduated from Enneagram University and are both Christy rolls full and free Enneagram super fans. Absolutely, yeah. So that's always fun. And I am also um Rebecca is joining us as a type two with a very strong wing once. We'll get to hear a little bit about that as well. But I'd love just to start off and hear what you're working on now. Like what is the work that you do? And then how do you use the Enneagram within that work that you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah, big question. Um, I would say it's twofold. So, first of all, I, as you can hear from my accent, I am British. I live in England and I work for the National Health Service and I work in a child and adolescent mental health service. So we won't get into it at the moment, but there are, you know, there's a lot of debate about whether how much you should use the Enneagram with children. Obviously, it's not good to tell anybody what they are, but I think there's a particular power dynamic when it comes to adults telling children or influencing their thinking around their Enneagram type. So you'd have to be very careful about that anyway. But but Enneagram work definitely isn't something that we would use explicitly working for the health service in the UK. So I wouldn't say that I use the Enneagram very explicitly in that work, but it helps me to think about people. I think anytime you learn anything, anytime that your mind is opened a little bit to the understanding of people, there's there's the excitement element of it, isn't there? And the interest of me and you are both like this. When we get really interested in something, we're just like, I want to use it everywhere. Um, but it you can't help but have that influence the way that you then go and see the rest of your work. And I think that the Enneagram is just really helpful for me when I come to what we call in clinical psychology, what we call formulating, which is basically a fancy way of saying understanding what it is that's going on for a person. There's, you know, you talk to any therapist and they'll tell you about the importance of understanding what someone's past has been like, what their background is, their cultural context, what their relationships have been like, the particular kind of trigger points for them, the things that they want out of life, the things that are important and not important to them. So the Enneagram just slots so nicely into that, not as something different, but just as an addition to just give you a little bit more information. And I will have in the back of my mind, like, oh, something that this person has said makes me maybe think that they might be a three. And that doesn't then make me go, right, they're a three, I know what I'm going to do, but it will it'll shape the kind of questions that I'm asking. And I'll just wonder, I wonder if this fits for you. And then if they go, oh my gosh, yes, it really does. There's a lot of power in being seen and being understood that way. And we don't have to have conversations about the Enneagram for that to still be powerful. Because as we know, the Enneagram is partly about that power in understanding yourself and knowing a bit more about why that might be, but it doesn't just stop there. It's not just a nice little cuddle. It's it's right now, what are you going to do about it? And again, that fits so nicely with therapy because we can get to a point where we understand and we understand and we understand, but it's then how are we going to use that responsibly to help? What are you going to do for yourself? And what do you need me and other people around you to do in order to support you, given that we understand better where you're at? So it just fits so beautifully. I think it's been so helpful. And then the second part of that is that I had been thinking a little for a little while after I um went off on maternity leave in uh at the end of 2019. What do I want to do when I go back to work? Am I going to go back full-time? Am I going to go back part-time? If I go back part-time, what do I want to do with the rest of my time? And I had started to explore the possibility of doing some private work, partly so that I could be a bit more in control of my own time and my own hours and but also the kind of work that I was doing. I think any service that you work in, no matter how much you love the work, you're always only going to do a specific kind of work. You can't do everything. And Christy's EU program came along at just the right time where I thought, you know what? It doesn't have to be a particular kind of psychological therapy that I do. It could, it could be the Enneagram, because when I think about it, that's what I'm loving the most right now. And that's what I think I can use no matter what I do. So then I started to signed up for the program. Um, I worked through it. That was it again, it came at the perfect time because I was we were in lockdown. So apart from looking after a small child, which yes takes up lots of your time, but then in the evenings, oh, there's nothing else to do apart from watch TV. I might as well do this certification course. Um and and then I think one of the wonderful things about EU is that we've all had ideas in the back of our minds about how we might then use that. But I think pretty much all of us have then had other ideas, or we've tried something out and it hasn't worked quite the way we wanted to, or we've had a surprise that we've really loved something else that we've given a go. And um and it's developing and it's changing all the time, and it will continue to. So, as you said, I've explored doing some workshops for writers and individual consultations. Um, I do some individual therapy privately with adults where I bring in a lot of Enneagram work and I do typing kind of alongside of that. Um, and I obviously being a two relationships are super, super important to me. I like doing some couples work, and I'm starting to think about doing an online course around the Enneagram and relationships. So that is in the process. Um, yeah, that sounds like a lot, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 10:11

No, it doesn't. That was that is all so good. I want to come back to the relationships um in just a moment, but I know you had mentioned you most identify with the type two, wing one. What most about? I know that you had mentioned relationships, but what was it about learning about the Enneagram and then specifically the type two where you were like, oh my gosh, this is so me? Or were there a couple that were kind of you were maybe stuck between trying to decide between, and then you finally landed on the two? And what was it about that they were like, this is me?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah. So there were three when I was first looking at the Enneagram, there were three that I thought, oh, I can see a little bit of me in that. There was two, there was one, and then there was eight. And I'll just say when I looked at the eight and the things that I really identified with that, I thought, please God, don't let that be me. Because and I think that having spoken to people about this, I think obviously because eight is where I go in stress. And this isn't about going, gosh, eight's a dreadful. That's the worst number to be on the Enneagram. It's about saying most of the time when I'm accessing that kind of um perspective, with I'm I'm in that kind of place, it's because I don't feel okay. So, of course, those kind of personality traits, of course, those kind of actions, of course, that kind of perspective doesn't feel okay to me because it's always paired with times when I don't feel okay. And trying to access that as a missing piece and think, how can I draw on those strengths? Because I say I have a highway to eight, like I know exactly when my stress is coming in. Um, but if I can use that at times when I am feeling okay, I start to have a lot more compassion and understanding for eights, but also a lot more compassion and understanding for that part of myself. So that's really helpful. Um, but it was really between a two and a one. And I think that um looking back on it now, I think I've realized that my mum is a one, which is another influence as well, is that we obviously we know we get influenced by our parents. And and so I think because that's possibly the reason why my one wing is so strong, because that's just the kind of um environment that I've grown up in, maybe. But I was listening to a podcast where someone was interviewing a type, uh I think the the podcast host, it was Suzanne Stabile and Ian Morgan Cron's podcast The Road Back to You. And they were interviewing Hunter Mobley, and Hunter and Suzanne are both twos. So Ian was kind of sat back listening to the two twos chat for a little while, and then he came in and he said, Um, I would just want to say as as both of your friends, um, I don't need you, I want you. And I burst into tears. I was on a bus on my way to London and I got off at the other end and I said to my mum, I've just read this thing called the Enigram, you've got to take a test. Don't take a test. But at the time I was like, We've got to find out what you are. I need to evangelize about this and get you involved as well. Because it had just gone from intellectual interest to a deep, deep understanding and this like just this hug from my heart, where I went, I had no idea that that is what I needed to hear. And that changed everything, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

You know, I've heard before that people can use the Enneagram for entertainment, information, or transformation. This kind of goes back to what you were talking about in in your own work, like letting people learn the information, learn about themselves, but then it's like, okay, well, how are you going to use this now? Um, I don't know if you're uh, would you be willing to share what you see in yourself with the A? Because I know that we have several twos out there, and it would just be interesting to hear like how you see that a expressed when you do go there.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think the because obviously when you're under times of stress, then your your own number starts to kind of come out in different ways. So um I start to get a little bit resentful, and I think a little bit of that is the two, but then I it's almost like I completely lose patience for people. It's like I have absolutely no time for you and your stupid ideas. Why doesn't everybody just do things this way? Look, come on, this is really obvious and it's really right. Um, and I can get quite um, it feels awful admitted these things, doesn't it? It's really difficult to talk about this side of yourself, but it is.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

I mean, I have my own things, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yeah, I think I can get quite quite easily quite snappy with people. I can get quite blaming of other people, I can find it quite difficult to to be compassionate, to see the other person's perspective. I can feel find it quite difficult to care, to be perfectly honest. And obviously for a two, that comes from a place of me feeling like I've given out, given out, given out for so long and not gotten anything back, that I think there's that resentment that's underlying a lot of that, what comes across as impatience and intolerance, really, um, and unwillingness to think about where the other person's coming from. And it feels so antithetical for a two because that's not how other people stereotypically see you. It's not how we want to be seen. Um, and there have been times where I feel like in doing my growth work to incorporate elements of that, well, I don't care what you think, Ness, from an eight, which can be so beneficial. I feel like I'm being a really bad two. And of course, it's not about being a great two or being a bad two. It's going, this is where I've got the most access at the moment. But I don't want to spend my whole life just being the obviously, I want to be the best me I can be. It's not about being the most amazing too, it's about being the most amazing me. And that's going to look different for different people where which numbers they go to at different times and what work they try to do to draw in those different strengths from different areas is going to be different. Um, because we're not always going to be able to be like perfectly sat in the middle having equal access everywhere. So um, yeah, it's it's weird that I can, yeah, I can just feel like I'm being a bad two at times.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, that is so interesting. I'm also curious, um, just because you're so versed in this, I want to explore like the two-ness a little bit more. But when so we know we have the stress and we know that like we can take on those tendencies of that that stress or deintegration arrow, but also we have access to the amazing qualities. And especially as an eight, like with the decisiveness and the sometimes the boldness and big ideas, how do you see that showing up for you? Because as a type seven, I have that wing eight, and I'm sometimes thinking, all right, girl, today is the day you need to, this is the time to tap into that eight energy and be like really intentional with some of those amazing qualities that come more natural for somebody with that eight energy. But just in the work that you do or in the life that you have, how do you see some of the healthiest qualities come up for you with that eight energy?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the word boldness. I think it is that boldness. As a two, I obviously I insert myself where I don't always need to, and I think that I can be useful. And there's a pride element there of going, you need me, but there's underlying that there is just a fear that I won't be needed. Um, it's not a true boldness, it's not a true awareness of what I can offer. Um, and so I think that what I know I need to do when I notice some of the parts of you know, my two-ness and and the eight-ness coming up that feels like it's not helpful for me. It's coming from a place where I'm not going to process this in a very meaningful way, or it's just gonna kind of steamroller over somebody else. It's just noticing what's coming up and saying, I don't need to notice that I'm going to eight and then wait until that all fizzes out and then go back to my little two space and deal with it how I want to over there. It's saying, okay, this has come up for me. Let me hold on to it. Let me, yes, let's process and wait for some of this burst of emotion initially to subside. Let me, you know, bring up my headspace and all those kind of things. But let's not lose this because whatever information I'm getting in that space is still going to be relevant. That doesn't mean that whatever information I get instantly, whether that's through our heads, hearts, guts, that doesn't mean immediately go on whatever information, but it is about incorporating that information and using it and weighing it up. And too often I think that I've got information from the eight space, but because of what it's what it comes with, and me feeling that that shouldn't be there, I throw the baby out with the bathwater. So it's almost like sieving it. It's about saying something hasn't felt right. Maybe it feels okay now, but it didn't feel okay. So why didn't it feel okay? What do I what do I need to remember from where I was? And obviously, the more you are able to do that in the moment, the quicker you're able to process that after you've gone somewhere, you know, as something's happening almost, the quicker you're able to react or respond in the way that you want to. But sometimes that's about waking up the following day and going, oh, I did not deal with that well. But rather than ignore that and feel shame about that, let's process that.

unknown 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

And it gets, it sounds, I don't know whether that sounds easy or difficult. It it starts off being really hard. It gets easier the more you practice it. Um, but that's one of the great and the frustrating things about the Enneagram or anything similar, is it takes a lot of intentionality to grow.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

It really does. And um, it and it is so difficult because I think so many of us a lot of times are on that just that default like autopilot going through life, getting triggered by the same things we always get triggered by, you know, um responding the same way we always respond, behaving the same way, and um wanting a different result, but then not being, you know, acting with that intention. So that that is huge. And that's something that I love to talk about and something I'm always having to work on myself. Um speaking of growing, so as a type two specifically, they have a growth arrow, an integration arrow to the type four. How do you see that coming up for you?

SPEAKER_01 20:13

So again, what's interesting for me about going to four is that my best friend is a four. So it's really difficult for me to work out what how how this happens naturally and how this maybe happened before I met her, versus what she's really able to encourage and praise and bring out in me. So she is somebody who is is amazing at cancelling plans. You know, when she needs the time, when she knows that she is, she calls herself kind of a social introvert. So when she is peopled out, when she knows that she needs an evening in, she will just cancel things as if they can possibly be cancelled. You know, she has a good sense of responsibility and she'll turn up for people when it's needed. But if she knows that it's not the end of the world, if I just don't go and meet those people tonight, it'll be fine. I need this for myself. And she's fantastic at modelling that. But she has therefore been a safe space for me to practice it. She's been a safe space for me to message and say, I kind of don't feel like it tonight. Is that okay? And she's always said, of course, absolutely. And most of the time she'll go, Oh, I'm so glad you said that. Like I can always deal with an evening in as well. That's fine. So I think in the same way that I said, I don't know how I would have been, and the big question isn't, I don't know how I would have been different with my wings if um my mum hadn't been a one. Um, I often wonder what my growth would look like at the moment if I didn't have a four close friend who was able to really explain what their experience of living in that space is like and encourage those qualities in myself. Um, so I think that I have got better throughout understanding the Enneagram, but definitely from being in that friendship at just knowing that it's okay to say no, no. That which is the biggest thing for twos, isn't it? Is putting those boundaries in place and is listening to what I need and not just plowing on and doing things for other people. Um, yeah, that's that's been a really special part of my my growth journey. And you know, we can't prescribe this to people. We can't say, Oh, okay, so you go to such and such in strength. I really think that you should develop a close friendship with somebody who is that because it's not that simple. So it's just it's just happened to be um quite serendipitous.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah, but and but that is such um, in my in my opinion, like one of the most beautiful or um ways to grow for the type two who tend to be so others focused, is then to exactly like you said, that your friend does so well, focus on what do I really need right now? Do I feel like I these people expect me to do this and I feel like I just should do it? Or it's like I really need a night in. And so I'm gonna say, I need a night in, and like the world's not gonna end. So I love that. Um, what about with I know that we had um there are a couple of questions I had asked you about as we were preparing for this. And speaking of being intentional, you had just wrote in Britain briefly about tapping into your your wing three with a lot of intentionality and focus. Would you talk a little bit about that and how you how you use that in the work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yes. So having your own business is hard. Whether it's big or whether it's small, you you've got to do a lot, and there's no one else to fill in if you're sick, and there's no one else to to drive you, and and it's about what you want and and your values and you know your big ideas and everything, and nobody else is going to generate those for you. Obviously, you can have people to help you alongside those, and you can bring other people into your business at some point, but especially when you're starting out, there's an awful lot of drive that comes more naturally to some numbers than others. And I think for me as a two, I've struggled at times to get stuff off the ground. I've I've created things and I've gone into a lot of depth with them, and I've had that one wing telling me that it needs to be perfect, and I've had the my tuners telling me that um it needs to be everything that everyone could possibly need. And what if somebody looked at that, even you know, what if somebody looked at that Instagram post and didn't find it helpful? Like, well, that was a disaster, wasn't it? Like, I'm any one thing is going to meet everybody's need in the world. But um do it doing that kind of stuff, there's a lot from the two and the one side that could just completely hold you back from ever putting anything out there or just make you stress all the time about it. And I have, I think I've needed to naturally just think about those qualities that that you know I can draw on. Um, I do have slightly easier to access to. I do have times in my life where I recognize that in myself and say, it's okay, you can go for it. Because it's interesting. I was actually having a spiritual direction meeting earlier today where I was talking with my spiritual director about like responsibility. She knows the Enneagram as well. Um, and she said, you know, the word responsibility comes up a lot for you. And where we ended up landing was I can afford to do things and just see how it turns out. I can afford to be a bit more spontaneous and a bit impulsive because I am never going to lose that more responsible, cautious part of myself. I don't have to work on that and I don't ever have to worry about losing it. But there's another part of me that I have to just allow to be there and I have to allow it to grow. So it's not about saying, hmm, I'd quite like a three wing. How do I incorporate that? I think it starts by saying, what bits of that do I already identify with? How can I see that already showing up in my life? And then when it wants to pop up again, how can I let it? How can I just choose to respond in a different way than I would normally respond? And then it's almost like having an excited little puppy that you've just given a little treat to. It's like, well, that's more likely to come back the next time, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Oh, that's so good. That's so good. Um, okay, last kind of question about the being a two. So twos are in this, for those um our listeners who may not be as familiar, they're in this grouping around um the compliant. I've also heard it called like the dutiful stance, um, sometimes the dependent stance, where um they might look outside of themselves to get their needs met. Um and for those in this grouping, they tend to be repressed in thinking. So for twos, it's my understanding, you feel first, then do, and then the thinking kind of comes last. Um how do you have is that something that you have noticed as you've learned more about the Enneagram that you do have, you know, going back to that intentional action, how have you brought that the thinking center of intelligence into, you know, being the best version of yourself?

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah. I would say, again, Suzanne Stabil is the person who's taught the most on this that I think I find the most helpful. Um, and I don't know whether it's because she's a two. So when she says things that are challenging for twos, it's like it's fine. I know that you have a lot of love for twos because you understand it and you're there. Um, but she always says whenever twos get told and ones and sixes, that they are thinking repressed, they hate that because they're like, I am not, I think all the time. And I do think all the time, but it's not productive thinking. And that's really hard for me to realize. But as soon as you look into it more and think, well, what is that about? And you appreciate that everyone's got to be repressed in something. It's not a criticism, it's just the way it works, it's just the stacking. Um, and then you think, um, how what do I do about this? Again, it's all just about what do I do about that? How do I just come to terms with that? I accept that that's the way it is. Um, give myself a little bit of a break and then think about what does it actually mean to bring up thinking. And the way I think I think about it with um with people is that that as soon as you experience anything, all three of those centers are going to be kind of there's a button that's gonna be pushed in all of them in some kind of way. But for me, emotions just goes room and it fills up super, super quick. And then, you know, I get a body sense or I get an urge that we've got to do something about that. And the thinking is coming. There's obviously stuff that I can do to tap into that explicitly, but the thinking is coming. So sometimes the simplest thing is just to wait. Sometimes the simplest thing is just to go. I know that's how I feel about it. I'm not waiting for my emotions to dip. Again, that piece of information that I've got there is really useful. I'm just waiting to see what other voices are going to come to this party. I talk about this um a lot when I um do my therapeutic work, and people are talking about having, and not in the same way that a one has an inner critic, but having that inner critic, having that critical um voice, that often that's the first voice that comes up in our minds. And that's like like it, it'll be useful information there. It'll be trying to keep us safe or protected in some kind of way. But you wouldn't open the door to a party, allow one person in and shut the door and lock it and be like, nope, this is fine. This is all the people we need here. This is the only perspective I need for a good decision to be made on the topic. You'd wait to see who else turns up, and just because that one person turned up first doesn't mean that they get to to win or they get to be heard anymore. So I think it's just about waiting to see what else pops up and being able to listen to that and remembering that it's not about valuing anything over anything else, it's just about knowing what comes through the door first. They're all important. Um, so for me, I had a situation at work fairly recently where we got told a piece of news in a meeting and my manager prefaced it with Rebecca, you're not gonna like this. I was like, right, gearing up. And and it did, it made me, it made me angry. Um, and I just I was set on a it was a a visual um a video call like this, and I just went, I'm just gonna need a minute, and I just went off screen and I said, I'm just feeling emotion about this right now. I can't give you a good answer. And in the past, I wouldn't have done that. In the past, I would have just started talking because I'm a visual, uh, I'm a verbal processor. So I would have gone, oh my gosh, there's so much going on here. In order to make any sense of it for me and for anybody else, I just need to start talking. And now I know that that is not the case. I still get to talk if I want to, and maybe I need to go off and talk to myself in the loose, but actually I just need to wait. And I just need to see what else comes. Um, and for some types it might be about more intentionally kind of digging for what's there. Other people might sit there and think, nope, doesn't matter how long I wait, don't feel anything from one of the other centers. Um, but generally I think that there's a button press for all of them, and we just need to wait and see how they start to come up a little bit and be more intentional about yeah, letting them through the door and listening to what they've got to say.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

That is one of the best analogies I've ever heard about um, yeah, you would never just let one person come in the door and shut it. That's so good. I love, love, love that. I think regardless of our type, like that, that is something that we can all take um and practice ourselves. Okay, I want to ask a little bit about the the work you do. And thank you for being so open and honest with your experience as the type two. I know. So the Enneagram is interesting because um it's not like strength finder where we're just like only talking about our strengths and the good things. Like it definitely shines light on those. And also some of those other parts that you were talking about, we don't always like love about ourselves, um, but are but are there for a purpose, kind of like you were talking about to keep us safe. So it's never about the enemy within or the I think sometimes it gets a bad, a bad rap, but it is just kind of seeing a complete whole picture. So thank you for for sharing um some of your own experience with with all sides. Um, in the work that you do, I know that you're you help a lot of people um break unhelpful cycles, um, address limiting beliefs. What are some of the most common limiting beliefs that you see come up with your own in with your own clients?

SPEAKER_01 32:26

In various different ways. I've come to believe that is there is one rule for you and one rule for me. There's one rule for me and one rule for everybody else. And that for me shows up in terms of um you're allowed to rest, but I'm not. You're allowed to be wrong and I'm not. You know, it's about what do you allow other people that you don't allow yourself? And and often at the core, there's a there's a belief that you are not you're not allowed in some way to be like everybody else. And obviously, you know, for very, very few people would fit in the kind of narcissistic box of, and that's because I'm better than everybody else. The vast majority of the time, this is because you think that you're less than other people in some sort of way. It might not always come across as that, but I've found that generally in the work that I do, there's a there's a fear there that I am not good enough for some reason or I cannot allow myself to do what other people do. I would give advice, but I can't follow it because I'm different. And I find it's about getting to the crux of that. And again, depending on what people's numbers are or what um experiences they've had, that's going to be different. But I think that, yeah, a big self-limiting belief is to think that you are intrinsically unique. I know that sounds awful, but I remember when I was a teenager, there was this um picture of a snowflake on a wall of um a community center that I just thought was hilarious that said, always remember you are unique, just like everybody else. But it's true, you know, there's you've of course we're unique and special and we are different from everybody else, but not us sitting there separate from the whole of the rest of the world. Um, and I think it's about building that understanding of our shared humanity and then building compassion for ourselves. You know, we don't all need the same things, we don't all want the same things, but our basic needs are going to be there. Um, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Yeah, oh my gosh. That was like, I don't get emotional very much, but that was like, wow, yeah, I I do that too. It's like, oh, it's not okay to fail at something, but it's like I would tell my best friend, like, oh, just you're fine, just do it, do it differently the next time or try again. And then it's like, yeah, we do tend to kind of um give ourselves the third degree or hold ourselves to a different standard. Um, so gosh, that was really good. What about I know that you mentioned you do a lot of work with couples and helping them and you use the Enneagram in that way? You know, this is just an assumption, but I'm assuming that a lot of the issues come down to communication. Um, is that your experience? And yeah, either way, yes or no, how do you use the Enneagram with those types of sessions or clients, um, those types of situations where it's two people?

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Yeah. I am so, so passionate about this kind of work. And I think that one of the reasons that I am is because I think that the Enneagram has been so incredibly useful for my own relationships, for my relationship with my husband, but my friends and my parents, and probably even my colleagues, and the way that I just, for example, knowing that there are things about myself that I will have assumed everybody else thinks or does. And as soon as I know that's not the case, I know that I have to explicitly explain that to other people. I have to tell people what I need, what I want, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling, how something is affecting me. And the more that you communicate that with someone else, the more that they start communicating it back to you. Because if you're telling them something that's different from the way they're seeing the world, then that has that light bulb moment of, oh, that's similar or not the same for me. And it opens that door to be stepped through as well. So um I think it is just so helpful. And I think you're right, one of the big problems is communication. And I think that probably some of the biggest problems that I see are people just don't think it's worth communicating anymore because they've tried communicating in various ways. Maybe there's there's often a bit of a dynamic in couples where one person really pushes because they really want a lot of communication, they want to know what the other person's inner world is like, but maybe the other person finds that a bit much, so they withdraw because they don't know how to handle that. But of course, the more they withdraw, the more the other person pushes. Um, and and I've definitely seen that in my own relationship with my husband who's a nine, and now I really understand that there's just no way that that's ever going to be, that's never going to get me what I want, let alone be helpful for him. Um, but often people don't come to couples therapy because they're thinking, hmm, I'd quite like to see if there's anything we can do to improve our already quite happy relationship. It's usually people coming to a point where they're like, I'm basically here to see if we can salvage any of this. And so their communication has really fallen down. Maybe they're just communicating in a really basic way about things they need to, or maybe they're just constantly getting into arguments about things, or maybe one or both have just thought, I don't see the point in communicating with you because it doesn't feel like I'm listened to or understood. So the first part in it is not necessarily starting to do any specific couple therapy work, it's just starting with, do you understand your types if they want to do any of Gram work? Let's sit here and like you listen while we have a conversation about partner A. And then you sit there and listen while we have a conversation about partner B. And you just listen about their inner world. Don't question it, don't try to go, no, you don't, you do this other thing, because we're not talking about behavior, we're talking about motivations and set it out from the start that you can guess, but you cannot say. And there's a lot of guessing and a lot of projecting that happens, and you don't usually give that space. I think another really powerful thing about couples spaces um for coaching or therapy is that you can say from the beginning, you are both going to get a chance to talk. You don't need to fight for my time. I am I am a moderator almost. I'm here to make sure that you are both going to get heard and you're both going to get a say, which is people don't often feel like that in in relationships. They feel like they've got to fight for that space, or that one person's always the person that does the talking. So I think there's something really powerful about that about going, it is worth you communicating. Let's just try doing it in a different way. Where we're starting from, let's understand what it is that's going wrong here, because clearly this matters to you both, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Clearly, you matter to each other, otherwise you wouldn't be together in the first place. Um, and I think the other thing is about um like we were just saying about when you understand your stance and you know which of your centers of intelligence is repressed. You know, I I think or I feel or I do, but it's not productive. So it's looking at how are people communicating because chances are it's not productive. It's not that it's the wrong way of communicating, it's just that it's probably unhelpful, or it's just not getting either of you what you need right now. So let's look at how you do communicate and let's tweak things and let's please let's look for your strengths. If I can get couples to just change their body language in a session and just turn a bit more towards each other, or if they can just like share a smile, you can feel that something has changed. When I was doing my training, I did um just a four-day externship. We got to choose what we did for a particular week, and we all wanted to do emotion-focused therapy. And they said to us, There's a lot of other therapies that are about how you think or what you do. But this is about having a different emotional experience in the room in the session. It's about facilitating that right here, right now, and then sending them away to kind of carry on them, yes, practicing and then having those, but it's less about you know, discussing things and understanding things in the room and then giving them homework to do with the rest of their week. Let's have a different emotional experience right there in the room because that shift is going to the idea is that then that naturally creates change in the rest of the week until they come back to another session. And I see that in couples' work in a way that I don't see in individual work because you again you can see that that oh, and that connection with another person right there in the room. And obviously, for me as a two, that just warms my heart.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, that I I will say too, just as like a testament to that, um, the Enneagram has been transformational in my relationships. Like, yes, individual growth, but then just like what you were saying to to see the world. I think you had shared this really great quote on your Instagram feed about I'm gonna probably get it wrong, but something like it's not how we see the world. Um, it's not about how we see the world, it's how we do you know what I'm doing which post I'm talking about. What is it?

SPEAKER_01 40:57

We we don't see the world as it is, we see the world we are.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yes, okay, thank you, thank you. I was like, wait a minute, I'm struggling here. Um, and that is so eye-opening um because so my boyfriend is a two, and as a seven, I had historically felt like he is smothering me, he's trying to trap me, and he's he's um, you know, thinking all these things, but then to know like again, my initial like default thoughts and feelings and behaviors, and then to understand where he's coming from and his inner world, like you were saying, um, has been really helpful. And we definitely don't get it right all the time. Um, and I definitely, you know, take steps back, but that that is so helpful and just and again, like you said, like with your parents, like um my mom has really gotten into the Enneagram too and identifies as a type nine. And just knowing that I can be more, you know, patient with her need to process things. And um, it it is just, I do feel like I understand why this is one of your favorite things, because so much can come from understanding how someone else is seeing the world and just to know that it's like, oh my gosh, that everybody is viewing the world like me. And it can be so helpful.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Um it comes back to what I was saying earlier about if you if you know when you're in your like stress place as an individual and you can start to be more aware of what's going on in the moment so that you can use that information quicker, it's exactly the same when you're you know with your relationships. It's you can still have arguments where you feel like you're oh my gosh, this is always coming up for us. But you know what's going on quicker, you know what both of you need quicker to resolve this. So, for example, I I've I've learned that even if I am really angry about something, if I just touch my husband's arm and go, we are okay, like we're okay, like it this is okay. Honestly, it is. Um, then that's really helpful for him. And he now knows that I need to emotionally kind of process things in a way that sometimes seems really big and was a bit scary to him at first, but now isn't scary because he knows, okay, when that subsides, we're back to being able to have a different kind of discussion. Um, but I also phrase things differently when I'm telling him about what I need or how things have hurt me. I'm thinking about it more. I'm thinking about how to explain that to him rather than just criticizing him and acting like it's his fault. So suddenly our arguments are not about what he's done, our arguments are about how we're coping with something. And we are the, you know, the solution is going to be something that the two of us do together. It's not about one person is the problem. So one person has to go away and fix it. Um, and that's wonderful when both of you are on board. You know, obviously he's not quite as obsessed with the Enneagram as I am, but he's on board, he's made an effort to understand more about twos, more about nines, um, and wants to have those kind of conversations. It's a lot trickier, trickier if it feels like one of you is more invested than the other.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But you you're also right too. It's like when you know yourself more, then you can kind of advocate for yourself and like this is what I'm feeling. This is what I need. Cause sometimes I'll in the past I'll have just found myself thinking, I don't, I'm just so angry or I'm so mad. And I don't know, you know, the language for it. So I do feel like the Enneagram has been such a helpful tool and just giving me language to express how I'm feeling sometimes and what exactly it is I need. So I I love that work. Um, and then the last thing I wanted just to touch on because this is so fun and so creative, is your work with the writers and developing characters using what we know about the Enneagram. So just tell me about that because you were the first person that I have seen do this, like integrate the two.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yeah, so I mean I've I've always been a bookworm. I used to want to be an author when I was younger. Um and I used to start a million different stories and never finish any of them. Um I I just couldn't do like the middles of stories. Um I I would still love to write a book one day. We'll see if it ever happens, shall we? But um my my husband is actually a really fantastic writer. Um, it's not what he does, he's a teacher, but he he is a really fantastic writer. And we were on holiday one time and he was having just this really great idea for a book, and I just went, write it then. So he's very slowly trying to put things down. And we were on a walk a year or two ago, um, and he was telling me about what he'd been doing and some of the characters, and um and I just heard him say something, and I just went, Oh, that just doesn't sound like something that character would do. And he went, Why not? And I said, Well, I kind of had it in my mind that this character was a three, and so blah, blah, blah. And he just went, Oh, that's really useful. And we started just talking about his other characters as though, well, if what Enneagram type does this person sound like that? So what would their motivation behind such and such be? And and he just said, This is actually really helpful. This could be really helpful to other people. And again, I don't think that the Enneagram is necessary to write really deep, believable characters. You know, we all walk through this world knowing people and seeing people and understanding people from lots of different perspectives. But I just thought it was another really interesting way to think about how to develop characters' depth, thinking about character stories, backstories, thinking about that character arc, thinking about personal development and growth and what kind of stuff they'd struggle with and what kind of people they would clash with and why. Um but there are there are times where I'll read books or I'll see films or TV shows, and I'll just think, oh, that is so completely out of character for that person. And it's fine, we're allowed to be out of character, we're allowed to act out of character sometimes. We're not predictable, but it bothers me when there's no reason for it. It bothers me when it feels like there's, oh, you've just wanted to create drama there. That's just a tool. And of course, some people then will just be like, that's fine, that sells. I want a cliffhanger at the end of every chapter, and it doesn't matter who's doing what. But for some people, it matters more to for it to feel really authentic and to add that kind of depth. So um I ended up offering a couple of workshops to writers and um they they thought it was really interesting. And I think what I didn't expect to come out of that as well was how much they took away from it from them from themselves personally, and thinking about how their Enneagram type influences how they work as writers. You know, it's very isolating work a lot of the time. You work alone, you need a lot of time with your own thoughts. And if you're not a head type, for example, how do you um, you know, or if you're particularly extroverted and you like to be around a lot of people, there's just there's just so many facets of it. Again, what what holds you back from sending a manuscript to a publisher? Oh, I don't think it's good enough yet. It's never gonna be good enough, just send it off. I'm worried about someone looking at my work and criticizing it or any of those kind of things. So um, yeah, I don't think it's where I want to put the majority of my efforts forever, but it was something that was really exciting to just that was my three-wing saying, let's just give it a go. You might really enjoy it. And I did really enjoy it. Um, and I would, yeah, love to do something else on that in the future. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Well, and I think that that's just so just so fun because it's like, well, maybe it doesn't have to be your whole business, like you were saying, or even like a huge piece of it, but it's like I wanted just to experiment and who knows what that could have led to, but also like now that you did it, done it, now you know. And I think that that that that energy is so applicable into to so many things, to so many of our ideas. Um, because you never know. And then I feel like it's like the Elizabeth Gilbert um in her book, like Big Magic, talks about like those ideas just kind of get stuck. And so just you know, get them out and see what comes. And then if it's nothing, then space has been made for the new thing or the next thing. Um, but you'll never know. So I love that you did that, that you are doing that. Um, last question before we start to wrap things up. Um, there are, you know, you obviously you have this incredible job that you do during your day. And then you had talked a little about going out on your own too and bringing in your own private practice. Um, for anybody else who might be thinking about making a career change or starting something of their own, um, even bringing in something you know part-time. What advice would you have to anybody who's at the very start of that road?

SPEAKER_01 49:41

So my first piece of advice would be you can, you can. You know, you you have you have all you need to do something. Um, practically, obviously, you need certain things. So I'm not entirely sure what the checklist looks like in the US, but you know, here if I'm gonna do private therapy work, I need insurance, I need to register with the information commissioning's office, you know, you need all of those kind of things. You can't just do, I'm just gonna go and like sit in the town square tomorrow and just offer people coaching. Um, of course, you need to be thoughtful about the way you're doing things and you need a plan. But but if something is lighting you up enough that you think, I think I want to do this, then think about what the cost to you of not giving it a go is, rather than the cost of what if I do it and I fail, or it seems like I fail, or I don't enjoy it. Um I don't think many people want to start businesses because just because they want a bit of money or just because someone else has told them that they should. Generally, it's a it's a little niggle that sits somewhere, it sits in your heart, or it sits in your head, and it won't go away, and there's a reason that it won't go away. So I'd say it won't go away until you do something with it, until you try, until you explore what that looks like. And sometimes what that looks like if you're in a different role, is I need to change my job, or I need to talk to my manager about the fact that I really want to do this very specific kind of thing. And I don't have the opportunity for that at the moment. Again, I'm going to use my husband as an example. He's a fantastic communicator, and he took part in this communication um competition a few years ago now. And we were on, he got he was the runner, the national runner up, and we were on the train back from London after the final. And I just said to him, You're really good at that. Like I'd never realized you're really good at that. And I said, Do you get opportunities to do that kind of stuff in your job at the moment? He said, No. I said, Okay, so if you progressed up in that company, would you have more opportunities to do it? He said, No. I said, Do you need a different job? And within two months, he changed and he was a teacher. Um, he just there was an application, um, he sent an application form off two days later. There was an advert, it all happened very quickly for a nine. That was a bit like, whoa, what am I doing? Um, and then later that year he started teaching and he's never looked back. He absolutely adores it. It's right where he's supposed to be. But I would say that niggle of what do I want to be doing? What am I good at? What won't go away? What scratch isn't being itched where I am, which itch isn't being scratched? Yeah, that's the one. Which itch isn't being scratched where I am. Um it can that change? And if that can't change, you know, for me, I said I'm never going to be able to use any of ground work explicitly in my job. And I really want to do it. This is the only way I'm going to be able to do it. Um, I'd say that's that's an important thing to think about. I'm I'm never going to be the person that just goes, just do it. It doesn't matter, it'll be great. Because let's be honest, it might not.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Um, but it's okay to give it a try. And it's okay to think about why won't this go away? What is it that's so important to me about this idea about the kind of life that I want as a result of that, or the kind of work that I want to be doing, how I want to be spending my days. What can I do with that? And if that isn't starting up your own business, then what is it instead? Because it's not you gave me some really good advice recently when I posted a particular personal quandary on the EU Facebook page where Sarah said, um, is there an option C? You're looking at options A and B, but is there an option C? Um, but always through that lens of why is this so important to you? And if you love something, it's okay to love it. It's okay for that to be a driver. It doesn't, and I'm saying this is a two, it doesn't always need to be about what you can do for other people or what makes financial sense or what other people expect of you or anything like that. The fact that you love something is reason enough for you to do it.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Ah, I'm like getting motivated, Dr. Rebecca. Um, okay, so I have a couple of rapid fire questions and I want to get to those, but before we do, I want to um be able to connect listeners to to what you're working on, where you're hanging out. Um, if somebody's interested in in couples counseling, um, individual, the writers workshop, let us know. Like, where are you hanging out and what do you have going on right now?

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Yep, so um mainly on Instagram, I'm at Enneagram Psych. Um, you can find me on Facebook as well, and that's at Enneagram Psychology. I've got a website which is um www.eneagrampsychology.co.uk. Gosh, I just said the www. Does anybody ever say that anymore? Like it won't be.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

I think it's a habit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Gosh, yeah. So this is like this podcast is coming to you from the 90s. Um, so yeah, you can find me there. I will post um information about any freebies that I have going, any workshops that are upcoming, any offers that I've got um will be on my Instagram and my Facebook pages. You can find out a little bit more information about me and my background and specific packages that I offer on the website. Um, and like I say, I'm starting to work on this online course and give me a few months to feel that that's good enough to start showing the world. And then I will take a leaf out of your marketing book and I will start plastering it everywhere. If you follow me on any platform, you won't be able to get away from it, hopefully, if I'm if I'm doing my job right.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

I love it. I love it. And then also I do want to um people don't know about your podcast, a drop in the bucket. How can we listen and what is that about?

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Yep. So search for um if you again on Instagram, we've got an Instagram account which is at uh drop in the bucket pod. Um, or you can find that through my Instagram account account. Um, and I started that up at the beginning of lockdown um in 2020 because of course that was the time to start doing lots of new things, wasn't it? Very sensible, um, with my best friend Sarah, who's a four. And we just have really open and honest conversations with guests about mental health. And we use this analogy of a stress bucket to think about we all have this kind of capacity for stress, and we've got limited capacity for stress, and different things fill up our buckets and different things empty our buckets, and it's about knowing yourself, knowing where the point is at which you need to do something about that rather than just let it keep filling up. And when it does spill over, what does that look like for you? And how can you explain that to other people? And what do you need to do sometimes to just give yourself a little bit more room? Because there's going to always be stuff that comes in and fills up the bucket. We need to be very intentional about emptying that on the other side. And we have a range of guests with from all different kinds of walks of life, and people who would say that they've struggled a lot with their mental health, people who would say they haven't really struggled that much, people would say they've struggled in lots of different ways, um, acutely, chronically. But everyone's got a story that I think everyone can connect with on some level. Um, and it's about just giving a bit more information to people, kind of spreading awareness of different issues, but also just helping. Hopefully, what we hope is that people will listen, they will hear something that goes like, oh, I thought it was just me. And they'll just connect again on that kind of emotional humanity level of it's okay to struggle sometimes. Um, and let's think about how we can help ourselves and communicate that with the people that we love. So yeah, we love it. We love it.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Yeah, sometimes that can be like the most helpful thing is just to know you're not crazy, you're not the only one. Um, okay, so before we we leave here, I want to ask you a couple of questions. Your answer doesn't have to be rapid fire, but I'm gonna do my best not to um to to respond and just let you you talk here. So, what is something that you are currently learning? Anything at all?

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Italian. Oh not very well, but I have got like a 670-something day streak on GeoLingo, I know. But I think even just doing a little bit every day to even just maintain the vocabulary that I do have, and then on the days when I have got a little bit more time to learn a bit more or go into the slightly more difficult grammar, um, then I will, but I love it. It comes back to relationships and communication. I want to be able to communicate with everybody. If I had a magic power, it would be able to speak every language.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Do you have a favorite phrase in Italian that you would be willing to share with us? Something that sounds cool.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Do you know what? I've I'm I'm gonna say actually the only thing that I can really remember from my GCSE German that I think is the winner phrase that you need to be able to speak in every single country is igmuck chocolate and ice. I need a big chocolate ice cream. You want to know that and you are golden.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Oh, so good. What about something that you are unlearning?

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Hurry culture, productivity culture. Um, I think I have learned how to be productive. I've learned how to hurry, I've learned how to multitask, I've learned how to make my brain go. I am very good at that. I don't need to be. I'm trying to unlearn that so that I can make space for slowing and so that I can find the value in space and waiting and focusing and one thing at a time. Um, and that is really hard.

SPEAKER_00 58:54

It is, it is. And then last question, and this is kind of this is going to be cool to hear because I know that you help others live their best life up to their, you know, their highest potential, whatever that means. Um, what does that mean to you? So, you know, we hear this, you know, live your best life, be your best self. What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 59:16

Um, I was really, I'm really glad you gave me these questions in advance because um this took some thought. But I think what I'm coming down on the side of is balance. So, and that's about more hour to hour balance for me than kind of weekly balance. So I've realized that you know, what we do often is the classic is nine to five, Monday to Friday, you go, go, go, go, go, and then you kind of rest at the weekend or do things that you know you enjoy at the weekend. And actually, I need to make sure that I'm getting more of a balance day to day, hour to hour, morning afternoon of um of just things that energize me and things that just need to be done, of times that I'm more active, of times that I'm more still. I can't just go, go, go, stop, go, go, go, stop. And for me, that's been about thinking practical things. So um, in my home office, I have a standing desk. So sometimes I'll stand and sometimes I'll sit down. It's literally that kind of simple physical balance throughout the day. But it's also thinking about if I spent a long time on video calls, when do I need time away from the screen? It's thinking about if I'm spending time on work that is very emotionally heavy, when am I doing something that's just fun? And it's allowing myself to see those rhythms on a shorter timescale rather than the big timescale that I think we're used to, that you know, everybody's working for the weekend. No, no, no. Let's let's try and find more balance and enjoyment and peace in what we're doing on a day-to-day basis. I know that's not always possible. We're going to have seasons of our life where it does just feel like you are getting through to the end of something really, really hard. But I I want, you know, my work to be something that challenges me, that excites me, but I want it to feel manageable over, again, that smaller timescale. So for me, that's what it looks like. It looks like me feeling more balanced.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

That's beautiful. Well, I appreciate you being here so much. It really is such an honor to have you on, to have you as a guest. And I I know that listeners are going to learn so much just from your own experience, from the work that you do. And so I appreciate you and uh I appreciate you being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

Thank you so much for holding this space. It's been great. I was gonna say it's gonna be great to talk with you. It's been great to talk at you. Um I talk a lot, but it's it's lovely to have the time to think and reflect in this way as well. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Well, it was also good. So I appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, so if you're listening to this, I'm assuming you're somewhat interested in hearing a little bit more about the Enneagram University coaching program that I went through along with my guest today, Dr. Rebecca. So Christy Rolls is the founder. She is she runs full and free Enneagram, and we got to be a part of her founding student, I guess, um, class with her first session of Enneagram University last year. And so I now have my certification through her program, and there's so many options out there. There is no shortage of Enneagram wisdom. Whether you are looking to incorporate this sort of certification into the current job that you have to enhance your leadership skills, or maybe you're looking to fold it into your own business, add it as you know, a bonus piece to what you already do, kind of like what I'm doing, marketing and Enneagram, you could pair it with lots of different things, fitness and the Enneagram, couples, relationship counseling in the Enneagram is one that I see often. Or if you're looking to completely pivot and shift into a new career around Enneagram coaching specifically. So lots of different ways to use the information, the certification. And the thing I love about Christy's program at EU is that there is so much knowledge out there, but the way that she has organized it and structured it and presents it is really approachable while at the same time being very in-depth. I also love the community that Christy has created. And so it's not that you're just getting the information, but you're also getting, you're feeding off the energy of all these other amazing people who are doing really fun and creative and inspiring things with their work, also getting to hear the questions that they're asking. And it's probably a question that you had, you just didn't know it yet. So you're you're learning, you're being inspired, you're networking with all kinds of other passionate people about the Enneagram. And then you also have an opportunity to actually practice what you're learning. So it's not just knowledge, it's you are getting to implement. And this is what I mean by this specifically. So you're learning all this knowledge, and then at the end, in order to graduate and get your certification, you have to do some practice typing sessions with some real life people that you record, obviously with their permission, and then you share those with a peer, and then you share those with Christy to get feedback. And that way, the first time that you're sitting down doing a typing session isn't your first time ever. So for those three reasons and many others, I absolutely love Enneagram University and cannot say enough about it. So if you have questions about that, please reach out, let me know. Also, Christy is very approachable and can also help you with your questions. Um, I do have an affiliate link for Enneagram University. So if this is something you're thinking about um joining in, I'm gonna put the link in the show notes here. Um it's at EnneagramNBA.com forward slash EU, but I'll also add the add the link in there. And um, when you join with my specific link, I'm also gonna add in two one-on-one sessions with just us to help you either develop your first um Enneagram offer to help you get visible, to let people know what you're what you're doing with your Enneagram coaching, how you're implementing it, how you're putting it out there. Um, not that you don't get that with Christy, you absolutely do. This will just be a chance to amplify that, to go deeper with a one-on-one with somebody who's already been through the program and getting known and getting visible is kind of a thing. So um, that's really what we'll be focusing on in those two bonus calls. So, like I said, if you want to learn more about the program, check out Enneagram University. Um, if you want to learn more about Enneagram University, check out Enneagram MBA.com forward slash EU. Thanks so much, and I'll see you back here next time.